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If Naruto: The Last didn't exist, would Naru/Hina be more swallowable?

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Poll: Would Naru/Hina been easier to swallow without Naruto: The Last? (36 member(s) have cast votes)

Would the pairing of Naruto and Hinata been easier to swallow if Naruto: The Last was never made?

  1. Yes (4 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  2. No (32 votes [88.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 88.89%

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#41 James S Cassidy

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 08:33 PM

 

It's not sexist. It is, however, another example of why men should be feminists. Cultural assumptions about how men and women should behave—whether that's in the US, Japan, Europe, South America, wherever—don't just create instances of sexism, but a sense of toxic masculinity. Just because men benefit from the patriarchy doesn't mean it still can't be damaging.

In this case, it's that dismissive attitude towards men's emotions.

Mmm....it's still sexist to me and to many men nowadays. People want equality, but never do they realize that it means that it goes both ways. If it is sexist towards women, then equality dictates that it is also sexist towards men. Seeing how I am offended as a man by what Kishimoto has done to both Naruto, Sasuke, and pretty much all the males in this series I call it sexism. It's also sexist towards women too.

I am not going to argue this and there is no one to change my mind about this. It is either sexist to both men and women or it is not sexist at all.

In the least possible sense, if the series isn't sexist...then the fandom is. The Naruto fandom who believes that the women deserve everything and the males deserve nothing. The fandom that focuses so much on the woman's feelings and not the man's. Sexism isn't always about over-sexualizing a character or belittling them because of their gender. Sometimes, it can just be something as simple as neglecting a person because of their gender role.

Like I said, if the only reason why anyone believes NH should be canon is because "Hinata deserves it" then THAT is sexist.
 

don't just create instances of sexism,

Seems like sound advice everyone should take...
 


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#42 Narufan85

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 08:45 PM

Mmm....it's still sexist to me and to many men nowadays. People want equality, but never do they realize that it means that it goes both ways. If it is sexist towards women, then equality dictates that it is also sexist towards men. Seeing how I am offended as a man by what Kishimoto has done to both Naruto, Sasuke, and pretty much all the males in this series I call it sexism. It's also sexist towards women too.

I am not going to argue this and there is no one to change my mind about this. It is either sexist to both men and women or it is not sexist at all.

In the least possible sense, if the series isn't sexist...then the fandom is. The Naruto fandom who believes that the women deserve everything and the males deserve nothing. The fandom that focuses so much on the woman's feelings and not the man's. Sexism isn't always about over-sexualizing a character or belittling them because of their gender. Sometimes, it can just be something as simple as neglecting a person because of their gender role.

Like I said, if the only reason why anyone believes NH should be canon is because "Hinata deserves it" then THAT is sexist.
 

Seems like sound advice everyone should take...
 

 

 

That's a very healthy attitude to have towards debate, don't you think? I mean, there's plenty of people who'd be happy to explain the intricacies of sexism, like we've been willing to do with racism in the past, but sticking your fingers in your ears isn't a good approach.

 

And for what it's worth, I'm a man. I also understand that there's a difference between sexism and talking about the negative impacts of patriarchy.

 

When you continually post stuff that is very "woe me, a white male," it comes off very badly and way too MRA. Those aren't the type of folks you want to emulate.

 

And for what it's worth, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. As this wonderful essay illustrates, sexist assumptions can color cultural perceptions of men. I think your heavy handed and black/white delivery limits how much traction your ideas get.


Edited by Narufan85, 11 October 2015 - 08:56 PM.


#43 sushi.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 09:16 PM

Guess that makes me a misandrist, James.  :w00t: 

 

Narufan85;gifsandmusings on tumblr is great! I love her essays on LoK and GoT. That post on toxic masculinity explains well how men are never the "target" of sexism, yet somehow manages to experience it whenever they step out of the tiny box of gender roles they themselves created.


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#44 Narufan85

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 09:39 PM

Guess that makes me a misandrist, James.  :w00t:

 

Narufan85;gifsandmusings on tumblr is great! I love her essays on LoK and GoT. That post on toxic masculinity explains well how men are never the "target" of sexism, yet somehow manages to experience it whenever they step out of the tiny box of gender roles they themselves created.

 

Yeah, her stuff (along with cultural vacuum and Wendy Nerd Writes) are daily visits for me. I still haven't gotten around to watching LoK, so most of that stuff I don't read with great care, but her GOT commentary is spot on.



#45 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 12:24 PM

You also can say that people only can say this AFTER the fact that the ending became what it was. During the manga run, however, even NH and SS saw a huge threat in NS even before  it was only until 699-700 did this "notion" was put forth and like you said, was put in by interviews with Kishimoto. Not the manga. In fact, the manga tells a completely different story especially in Gaiden where Naruto looks like he is full of regret for not being with Sakura at all and just settled for Hinata because no one else wanted him.

 

Like the rest have said. Take away the movie and it looks even worse and has even less reason for NH to happen. The interviews say one thing, the manga says another, and the movie gives a third option. Which one to believe? Can;t say "what Kishimoto wrote and endorsed" because this is the same man who did Road to Ninja which was heavy NS oriented and described as "what he couldn't do in the manga, but wanted to."

The sad part is, I am not sure what Naruto's goal was really.

In part 1, he only wanted to become Hokage because he wanted people to respect him. However, he got that respect and love he wanted way back in Pein arc, no need to be Hokage now for that. In part 2, he wanted to be Hokage to change the world and yet the world changed long before he became Hokage. You could say he wanted to become Hokage to change the system, but he didn't do that either.

Really, what as Naruto's goal in becoming Hokage by the end? Because I can't think of any. To get his face on Konoha Rushmore?

 

It's always funny how Naruto love for Sakura was never "apart of his goals," but apparently they praise Hinata for this being her ONLY goal. They say that the movie is not about romance, but then Hinata's love is that mattered to them.

 

A quick question are you the James s. Cassidy who posted this video on youtube https://www.youtube....h?v=OCNToELCGxA if so i'm fan of your with your stand on the ending and Narusaku.

 

I just saw the last on sunday and you were right it was worse then you said it was. I found at boring as all hell and didn't feel like a naruto movie. The story was stupid and pointless and pretty betrayed what the manga established. The characters stupid and out of character naruto and sakura being the worse. The villain was so lame and forgettable that Obito was better and I still hate Obito. Hinata did nothing through out the whole 1hr and 46 minutes not counting credits, she tried to do something in maybe the last 20 minutes and couldn't even do that right, oh she some low grade puppets and destroys  the Tenseigan  which she was only able to do with Naruto's help I might add. Sasuke and Kakashi are just wasted in this movie.

 

Who did you think is a better father Jecht from Final Fantasy X, Booker Dewitt from Bioshock Infinite or Joel form the Last Of Us compared to Naruto?

 



#46 James S Cassidy

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 11:33 PM

 

A quick question are you the James s. Cassidy who posted this video on youtube https://www.youtube....h?v=OCNToELCGxA if so i'm fan of your with your stand on the ending and Narusaku.

 

I just saw the last on sunday and you were right it was worse then you said it was. I found at boring as all hell and didn't feel like a naruto movie. The story was stupid and pointless and pretty betrayed what the manga established. The characters stupid and out of character naruto and sakura being the worse. The villain was so lame and forgettable that Obito was better and I still hate Obito. Hinata did nothing through out the whole 1hr and 46 minutes not counting credits, she tried to do something in maybe the last 20 minutes and couldn't even do that right, oh she some low grade puppets and destroys  the Tenseigan  which she was only able to do with Naruto's help I might add. Sasuke and Kakashi are just wasted in this movie.

 

Who did you think is a better father Jecht from Final Fantasy X, Booker Dewitt from Bioshock Infinite or Joel form the Last Of Us compared to Naruto?

 

 

 

 

At this point, almost every father is better than Naruto at this point.


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#47 Namikaze Clan

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 11:40 PM

At this point, almost every father is better than Naruto at this point.


Except for Sasuke. At least Naruto never tried to kill his kids

#48 sushi.

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 11:46 PM

Except for Sasuke. At least Naruto never tried to kill his kids

I don't understand why people fault him for that. He had no idea it was his daughter. The problem is that he didn't know what she looked like, not that he tried to kill her. He didn't even do that, he just pointed his sword at her.

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#49 RedFaction

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:08 AM

I don't understand why people fault him for that. He had no idea it was his daughter. The problem is that he didn't know what she looked like, not that he tried to kill her. He didn't even do that, he just pointed his sword at her.

No he tried to kill her.

 

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#50 sushi.

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:41 AM

Ok he almost stabbed her my bad but he wouldn't miss unless on purpose. She only says 'dad' a panel later. I'm not condoning Sasuke's behaviour there, but I feel like people are twisting this a bit.

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#51 Yojeveka

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 02:20 AM

But that's not the way to treat a child and she called him "Dad" before he tried to attack her, right? Anyways, he didn't even apologize to his daughter (Naruto was the one to defend him as always) and ended up leaving in the end. We aren't twisting, just setting the facts straight. 


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#52 James S Cassidy

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 08:49 AM

Except for Sasuke. At least Naruto never tried to kill his kids

Nah, Naruto is still the worst father. You know why? Because I expected all this from Sasuke. Attempting to murder his kids? Are you really surprised after he attempted to murder his "wife" and his "best friend" like several times?

I know, it sounds stupid, but I never expected Sasuke to be a parent at all. It is one those "people that shouldn't be parents." So, Sasuke has not disappointed me at all at this point. I think the real fools are the ones that expected Sasuke to be a loving father, a loving husband, and actually be "there."

This is a man who has held no responsibility in his life and has never taken any responsibility for his actions. Not even Naruto would hold anything against him and the proof is in the pudding.

Hey, Naruto, Sasuke is a bad father......better blame Suigetsu for ruining their lives. (Seriously.)

As Suigetsu said: "Why are you getting mad at me for? Sasuke was the one who messed up."

If anything, Sasuke was forced into something he never wanted to be in. Salad is just getting the blunt of it cause she is the "bargaining chip" to keep Sasuke around now. That's the only reason why he is still "married" to Sakura. Otherwise, he couldn't care less.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 29 October 2015 - 08:55 AM.

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#53 Yyubie

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 09:38 AM

Lol this thread is starting to turn like that thread named 'Whos the Worst father naruto or sasuke'. So are we back to square one?

 

Its just me or im starting to notice a lot of thread about 'IF' this didn't happen 'IF' that didn't happen?

Its a good think if we have a time machine.

 

You know NH fans said Chichi also almost never show up in manga but he ended up with Goku in the end, she has far less screen time than Bulma, as an counter argument. :lmao:

 

You need to know the reason why NH happen so that is the purpose of TL to explain how Naruto moved on/parting ways with Sakura and FALL IN LOVED with Byakugan Hime Sama.

Imagine if TL didn't happen and we suddenly get Gaiden, maybe we will all be wondering who is Boruto Mother? its obviously Sakura, pink colored jacket, no Byakugan etc. For me it will be even more painful if TL came after Gaiden.

 

NH happening is like rain of money out of nowhere, you need a valid, logical reason to accept this new phenomenon. Even if its far from logical at least reduce the damage xD.


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#54 tricksie

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 03:13 PM

For me, The Last doesn't make NH better than if there had been no movie at all and we were still forced to accept NH from the manga alone. In fact, the existence of The Last only makes it more apparent that NH wasn't supported in the manga and wasn't meant to be.

 

It only provides more of a stamp-of-approval, an official validity, that 'the powers that be' knew that the ending the series in NH was too much great a leap. So they put the movie in a distant future, with different versions of Konoha and even different versions of the characters, so that readers would disassociate the original story with where they wanted to take it.

 

Even Kishi said you don't have to read the manga to watch the movie! From his own mouth the movie is just a fanfic!!

 

So no, the movie doesn't do anything for me but validate that NH was a retcon. Even more so than if they'd just left the story alone.



#55 Nar123

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 08:21 PM

Well, the last is high too, does it mean that japan love nh too.

 

 

You have so much time here you ought to know the Last "high" numbers in Japan are due to fraud and baseless hype around characters that didn't even appear that much, fact evidenced by the last merchandising like the infamous "Naruto-kun" Hinata clock not even selling moderate numbers 

 

Even so it's quite clear Pierrot ended up losing money with it

 

SNS bromance - not exactly romance - is well accepted among the fandom in Japan, the writers just needed to throw a few hints and moments( eg: bridal carry) for the fujoshi to interpret it as romance while everyone else interprets it as a really tight friendship


Edited by Nar123, 30 October 2015 - 08:22 PM.

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#56 NarutoxSakuraFan4Life

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 04:00 AM

nH was never easy to swallow in the first place. It was a ship that was constantly forced down my throat at least...

 

But anyway, if The Last aka The Hinata movie, hadn't come out there would have been a HUGE plot hole. And Kishimoto didn't want that, I mean after all he wanted his mess of the an ending make some sort of sense. Not to mention, nH would have been known as the most underdeveloped pairing in the history of underdeveloped pairings. 


Edited by NarutoxSakuraFan4Life, 31 October 2015 - 04:10 AM.

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#57 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:10 AM

nH was never easy to swallow in the first place. It was a ship that was constantly forced down my throat at least...

 

But anyway, if The Last aka The Hinata movie, hadn't come out there would have been a HUGE plot hole. And Kishimoto didn't want that, I mean after all he wanted his mess of the an ending make some sort of sense. Not to mention, nH would have been known as the most underdeveloped pairing in the history of underdeveloped pairings. 

The only one I can recall that would be worse to me is Matt/Yamato and Sora at the end of Digimon Adventures 02. If possible, those two had LESS interaction than NH did.


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#58 Nar123

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 01:03 PM

The only one I can recall that would be worse to me is Matt/Yamato and Sora at the end of Digimon Adventures 02. If possible, those two had LESS interaction than NH did.

 

 

Yamato was the one to help Sora near the end of 01 though and I've heard Tai/Sora was more of a dub fabrication even though I like the pairing more...


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#59 db84x

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 04:11 PM

Guys why you still angry because ficticious pairing, actually end pairing is very obvious since manga follow DB winning formula.   But can't blame you since Naruto anime is very deceiving especially in romance part.


Edited by db84x, 31 October 2015 - 04:12 PM.


#60 Suigetsu

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 04:23 PM

Wouldn't matter to me because the ending with NH isn't the problem. 

 

The problem is that the beginning is set up with Naruto setting Sakura's love as his goal. And 95% of the story was built on that premise, with Hinata showing up for only 15 of the 600 chapters (or something like that). Any NH ending is wrong, whether in a movie or the anime or the manga.

 

There isn't a retcon big enough to make NH valid.  

 

The only way would be to create more manga chapters or a movie addressing Naruto moving on from his first love. Not a damsel-in-distress movie focused on Hinata, but a story based on Naruto, his maturing, his acknowledgement of his love for Sakura and his choice to move on. 

 

That has never happened. The ending was all about Hinata and her feelings, not Naruto's. Naruto was left out completely.

Dont forget all the plot points and storylines that where dropped.

 

But hey, we got probably the worst movie of the year thanks to that. woooow....

Why did all the naruto movies "except the stone of gelel and maybe the last" where about rescuing princesses? SP lacks in the writting department.







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