211 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

I suppose what makes the whole thing considered a bad literature product is "what's the point?" How do we, as readers, comprehend and learn from the hero's journey? In the end, nothing has changed right?

Considering the ending, there's really no point of having so much drama and build up. So much ideology presented, yet nothing gets concluded. When you read this whole arc once again, and then read the final arc, you'll most definitely raised your eyebrows :)

"So, what was the past 15 years all about?"

No wonder the series plummeted faster than it took to reach the big three. It gave zero respect to the loyal readers, and only listened to the loud minorities.

Yes - there were themes that Kishimoto was obliged to fill in hooking the reader in the premise of the story. Promises or 'contracts' he'd made with the reader. The problem is the promises were not fulfilled. And not by any of the characters. None of their arcs were resolved. And I don't mean that they were resolved counter to how I wanted them. The very themes the story was built upon were not resolved by Neji's death nor Naruto's pairing with Hinata nor Sasuke/Sakura's rekindling of a relationship and subsequent life paths.

 

The story ended, yes, and it ended in a way that made some people happy. But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten. The dark hero's redemption story (which could have carried the underwhelming hero's journey) was half-hearted and ultimately unconvincing. Even Sakura's evolution might have saved it, as she was the last part of the three main characters, but she was abandoned completely. So there is no one left to connect the ending of the story to the motivations of the beginning.

 

It's still disappointing. Even all this time later. 

[NarutoUzumaki01]

The story ended, yes, and it ended in a way that made some people happy. But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten. The dark hero's redemption story (which could have carried the underwhelming hero's journey) was half-hearted and ultimately unconvincing. Even Sakura's evolution might have saved it, as she was the last part of the three main characters, but she was abandoned completely. So there is no one left to connect the ending of the story to the motivations of the beginning.

 

It's still disappointing. Even all this time later. 

That is the saddest part for me :(

[BlueStarSaber]

"But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten."

 

I think that's the least true part. Forgive the topic tangent. 

 

700 is strictly showing the fruition of Naruto's goals. Boruto and the other children serves as the framework, really. Peace. Cooperation. Unity. Naruto as Hokage, with a family. Economic and Technological boom. Inter village Marriages.  It stands in stark contrast to Naruto at chapter one, or post Pain Konoha. A goal cannot be glossed over if it is resolved. 

 

In other words, it's false to say that no arcs were resolved. In fact, what arcs were left to resolve? 

 

"Sakura abandoned" was another odd claim, but it was never substantiated by the OP so I don't have much to say. Later material defines her place better in things, but I will concede it would have been nicer to have a small anecdote that Sakura was working in the medical field at 700, a unnecessary but cementing confirmation that she really is succeeding Tsunade in going beyond her own predecessor. But 700 isn't really about Sakura. 

 

On the Sasuke stuff, I think what the anime did in showing the missing detail of the clear imprisonment Sasuke faced on his return home would have helped a lot on his part. I do -get- the opinions that Sasuke should have got more punishment, but I also get the theme in Naruto of forgiveness, and it matches both Kakashi and Naruto's character to give Sasuke the opportunity he got. 

 

The ending was all show and no tell, it took all this other spin off material just to explain how this mess of an ending happened and even then they left us no satisfying answers or conclusions.

[Derock]

Yes - there were themes that Kishimoto was obliged to fill in hooking the reader in the premise of the story. Promises or 'contracts' he'd made with the reader. The problem is the promises were not fulfilled. And not by any of the characters. None of their arcs were resolved. And I don't mean that they were resolved counter to how I wanted them. The very themes the story was built upon were not resolved by Neji's death nor Naruto's pairing with Hinata nor Sasuke/Sakura's rekindling of a relationship and subsequent life paths.

 

The story ended, yes, and it ended in a way that made some people happy. But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten. The dark hero's redemption story (which could have carried the underwhelming hero's journey) was half-hearted and ultimately unconvincing. Even Sakura's evolution might have saved it, as she was the last part of the three main characters, but she was abandoned completely. So there is no one left to connect the ending of the story to the motivations of the beginning.

 

It's still disappointing. Even all this time later. 

 

Reply for the bolded part: That was the reason. The pairings killed the franchise because of those fans who were whining and crying about a certain female character who didn't even do anything (but also blame the anime team for adding silly and unnecessary stuff for bias and favoritism for them to see fit) and somehow took advantage of that with a movie to knock the actual female character away from the spotlight. 

 

I'm going to have to say this and say this right now: these so-called "fans" are not really fans at all. Sure, they will be criticism (everything has that!), but who in their right mind wants to threaten an author just because a certain fictional character/event/pairing/plot, w.e. is in their dislikes and be mad about it to the point that violence somehow have to be involved? And you want things YOUR way by yapping/typing about said stuff?! That's what fanfiction is all about. If you want a specific person/pairing in mind as "somehow" the author doesn't see your line of thinking, go do your own thing instead of threatening/complaining about b.s. Write your OWN goddamn story, oh wait, most people don't like or have original ideas /sarcasm. All of this could've been avoided and Naruto could've been a "successful" cash-cow series and ended in a good note.

 

Initially, I came here for NaruSaku (as I said back in the day as main "coupling" but then I saw what they had for romance, development) however, I did said I came to this fandom not for my love of ninjas, Japan, etc. but for the themes that Masashi tried to elaborate. Goals and motivations for Naruto, the actual main character. However, themes of the story just went out the window for fandom/executive meddling from Pierrot love of Hinata for to this day, that so-called "popularity" is just word of mouth. I still do NOT see any thing popular about her. Anime shops I went, NO merchandise of her but still see the actual main female, Sakura here and there (though maybe but I don't see the New Generation b.s. yet in America but I could be wrong). If the character was indeed popular enough to make NaruHina "acceptable" and legit, why don't I see her front and center? All these years if your character is loved and popular, why she's not there like Shikamaru and Iruka? (and I had seen their merchandise til this day).

 

Also Sasuke was basically "dominating" the storyline during Part 2. Did NOBODY ever think that if you headed to that route, Sasuke could've had a spin-off at the time, to save not only time but make the story at least balanced so Naruto has his own stuff while the stuff on Sasuke will be in another manga/novel/w.e.? That idea should've been showing $$$ on BOTH ends, even Masashi since he's motivated for money.

 

But anyways, those choices they had made was the worst decision for the franchise and now its not even worth talking about because everyone DOESN'T know what to do and Masashi gave up literally, all because of favoritism, inside and out.

[BlueStarSaber]

 

I'm confused, because show not tell is what you are supposed to do and taught to do in writing classes by masters of the art. (There is a place for summary, but it is absolutely -not- at the end. Of course, rules can be broken.) 

I was being ironic in the way that the ending of chapter 700 showed us all this Stuff that has happened but no explanation was given, and even in the more show less tell section Naruto still does that as we still have no idea how the other villages outside the 5 nations got on board with this current era of peace, how the characters that did become jonin get promoted to the rank (mainly Naruto) or how the world of Naruto was able to jump 70-100 years of technological advancement in 15 years!

[Bail o' Lies]

I keep forgetting to comment on this thread. Anyways the confession was genuine. It became a false confession because the nH fans claimed it to be so, and kishimoto offered no follow up to it then eventually dropped NS.

 

As for why it happened. Remember the editor that supported nH thought that after Hinata had her confession; she should become the heroine and love interest of Naruto. This was before kishimoto was worn down; so he opposed it. Then he probably felt to make sure people don't see it that way; he had to have Sakura give her confession to Naruto. So he did so. The problem was that unlike with Yahagi, he was getting no feedback on his writing for Sakura's confession; because why would the guy that wants Hinata to become the love interest help with Sakura's confession to Naruto? If he was getting feedback; it was only on the fans negative reaction to it.

I talked about why the confession was so poorly written. Now let me talk about the confession itself. "The False Confession" is the wrong term for it a more accurate term for it is "Sakura's Premature Confession." Sakura at the time had a lot of events happened to her in a short amount of time: The village was destroyed, Naruto was taken over by Kurama again, Tsunade was in a coma, and Sasuke joined the akatsuki (their enemies) as well as attack another village (making him an international criminal) also he was officially declared a missing-nin. Then came in Sai who gave a emotional speech saying that the people that are causing the most harm to Naruto are Sasuke and Sakura (because of the promise of a lifetime he made to her.) The realization caused when told the truth told to her so bluntly caused her to feel immense unbearable guilt. This is what led to her confession. She felt that if she confessed to Naruto the she loved him, was over Sasuke, and the promise of a lifetime he made to her was nullified since she doesn't need Sasuke anymore. So he would hopefully abandon chasing after Sasuke, and neither she nor Sasuke would cause Naruto anymore pain. 

 

The problem was that while she did have genuine feeling for Naruto. She was not over Sasuke yet, which is what Naruto didn't believe when she said she was.

 

We see "The True/Mature Confession" that was suppose to happen in The Tale of the Gusty Ninja. Kakashi during the final battle was suppose to ask what were Sakura genuine feeling and who did she truly love. She was then to realize that all along the she did love Naruto, and abandon any lingering feeling for Sasuke. Then she would tell Naruto she loved him(, as well as being completely over Sasuke) and this time he and everyone else would completely believe her. The problem is by that point kishimoto had accepted the nH/SS ending even though he thought SS was a terrible idea (Sasuke's speech about Sakura's feeling for him.) So Kakashi by that point had became a cheerleader for SS.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 October 2017 - 06:28 AM.

[Khaleesi]

ugh, said and show how important Sakura is for Naruto, and how he really loves her to after all this just finalize it with "it was just a mere crush", okay, man.

[Bail o' Lies]

I suppose what makes the whole thing considered a bad literature product is "what's the point?" How do we, as readers, comprehend and learn from the hero's journey? In the end, nothing has changed right?

Considering the ending, there's really no point of having so much drama and build up. So much ideology presented, yet nothing gets concluded. When you read this whole arc once again, and then read the final arc, you'll most definitely raised your eyebrows :)

"So, what was the past 15 years all about?"

No wonder the series plummeted faster than it took to reach the big three. It gave zero respect to the loyal readers, and only listened to the loud minorities.

The point? Well any point in Naruto's story was abandon for either Sasuke or Hinata by the end. "Become Hokage to reform the ninja system" became "end the cycle of hatred," so it could easily connect more with Sasuke. And everything after the War arc was justify and glorify nH and how it is so much better then if they stuck with NS.

 

Remember Naruto's main motto that was also his "nindo/ninja way" the Hinata kept mentioning was "never give up." The lesson he gave to his son at the end was "endure it."

 

Yes - there were themes that Kishimoto was obliged to fill in hooking the reader in the premise of the story. Promises or 'contracts' he'd made with the reader. The problem is the promises were not fulfilled. And not by any of the characters. None of their arcs were resolved. And I don't mean that they were resolved counter to how I wanted them. The very themes the story was built upon were not resolved by Neji's death nor Naruto's pairing with Hinata nor Sasuke/Sakura's rekindling of a relationship and subsequent life paths.

 

The story ended, yes, and it ended in a way that made some people happy. But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten. The dark hero's redemption story (which could have carried the underwhelming hero's journey) was half-hearted and ultimately unconvincing. Even Sakura's evolution might have saved it, as she was the last part of the three main characters, but she was abandoned completely. So there is no one left to connect the ending of the story to the motivations of the beginning.

 

It's still disappointing. Even all this time later. 

The sad thing is that Kishimoto knew that, and thought that while he was abandoning the story he had written for almost 15 years; he was doing what his fans that supported him through all those years wanted. It was only afterwards that he learned the truth, and now he is stuck there while the people that tricked him moved on to other things.

[ThroughWithLove]

I like the idea of the scene being used as a continuation of Sakura's subtle and confused feelings for Naruto. Something we've seen repetitively since the first bell test. I think Kishi was all over the place through this bit of the manga though. Having Naruto go from saying the promise is important to saying it means nothing within the span of 10 chapters is silly.

[Bail o' Lies]

When Kishimoto was asked about the confession he said something around the lines of he thought Sakura was an honest girl.

[Bail o' Lies]

I like the idea of the scene being used as a continuation of Sakura's subtle and confused feelings for Naruto. Something we've seen repetitively since the first bell test. I think Kishi was all over the place through this bit of the manga though. Having Naruto go from saying the promise is important to saying it means nothing within the span of 10 chapters is silly.

Blame the editors. ...if someone still has any of the manga can they look at when which editor was for which chapter? We might discover why the war arc was all over the place.

[sushi.]

ugh, said and show how important Sakura is for Naruto, and how he really loves her to after all this just finalize it with "it was just a mere crush", okay, man.

It can't be both basically. hehe. You crush on someone you don't know that much because you are infatuated with their surface, but Naruto and Sakura know eachother deep within. When you know someone inside out and still have a "crush", then you love them, simply put! XD

[Khaleesi]

It can't be both basically. hehe. You crush on someone you don't know that much because you are infatuated with their surface, but Naruto and Sakura know eachother deep within. When you know someone inside out and still have a "crush", then you love them, simply put! XD

It can't be both, exactly. As redherring this was so badly written.

[Nostradamus]

Rather, Sakura was more focused on Naruto's well being and what she thought would be the best decision for him while ignoring her own.

And that is a sign of true/real love right there. When it comes to Naruto; Sakura always puts him first. It's not about her own desires or her feelings, it's about Naruto's safety, his goals and his feelings. Even if with the confession it's not so well thought out.

And it's not like she's fangirlying over him, or worshiping I guess is the more appropriate word here, and being completely stupid about it.

She's protective of him. She genuinely cares about him.

Edited by Nostradamus, 02 October 2017 - 09:50 PM.

[sushi.]

People have already said much of what I would say here, and I agree that the confession was true until she brought up Sasuke. That was when Naruto started getting suspiscious too, and that instant tension was really telling. The scene is subtle but not as difficult to analyze as one may think.

All in all, the scene wasn't badly written in my opinion, but the follow-up(or lack thereof) was bad. I think fans hating on Sakura and misunderstanding her would've been fine had it been temporary, but he never gave her a chance to clear things up or explain herself.

Just one of many unreaolved things smh.

[Phantom_999]

Okay My joking is over, so I will add my genuine thoughts on this topic. The confession scene was a huge miscommunication on both ends and that is why it seemed so negative. The first thing we all must consider is both Naruto and Sakura's pov. We, as the audience are given information that was not disclosed to Naruto or Sakura, and it is their failure to communicate properly that is why there was such a negative outcome. And why were they miscommunicating? Because they were both told things that have both of them confused about their emotions from Sai, Tobi/Obito and from each other. Naruto heard that that Sasuke wants revenge on his home and the truth about Itachi, while Sakura was told about the lengths Naruto would go to save Sasuke and that his promise to her is only adding to Naruto's burdens. Now here is the tricky thing that most Anti-NS fans don't see. from Naruto's point of view, just all of a sudden Sakura just came up to him and confessed to him while denouncing her feelings for Sasuke and saying to give up on bringing Sasuke back, which is something that strikes Naruto as odd. Why? Because he believes Sakura has always loved Sasuke, and also she was always the most supportive of him in reuniting team 7, so it is both shocking and confusing for him that she would say those things. THAT IS why he is calling her a liar, because Sakura has always wanted to bring Sasuke back as much as he did. But again we, as the audience knows Sai told Sakura how much she is hurting Naruto. Naruto doesn't know, so that is why he stated it was weird for her to come up and say that, out of the blue to him.

 

On Sakura's end, she doesn't understand why Naruto would so obsessively chase after Sasuke even after she told him it was fine to forget his promise to her. The thing is, Sakura is desperately trying to protect Naruto from getting hurt anymore or even killed, because of what Sai told her that she probably was not remembering Naruto had other reasons to save Sasuke, so all she is seeing is Naruto stubbornly refusing to stop doing something so detrimental to him both emotionally and mentally. Also When Naruto said he hates people who lie to themselves, she was offended because that came off as she was faking her feelings for him, which of course commons sense says she wasn't. Why? Let's recall what Sakura wants to do. She wants to stop Naruto from being burdened anymore with bringing Sasuke back and she doesn't want to hurt him anymore. If she was making a FALSE confession, she should realize that it would hurt Naruto more because she was just told point blank she was emotionally harming her best friend so why would she "use his feelings for her again"? That is contradictory. Also what was the point of her confessing anyway if she was ultimately going to try kill Sasuke herself? That is the defining point of whether or not her confession was genuine. She had no reason to tell Naruto that she loves him, she could have just said straight up that he did not have to keep his promise to her because she saw no point in bringing Sasuke back anymore. Can anyone give me a REASONABLE explanation as to why she would  FALSELY confess to Naruto given the circumstances and her goal? Why would she be crying when Sai said Naruto loves her if it did not impact her that much, or if she did not feel the same way? Can someone answer me that? Why would she be blushing while confessing to Naruto, if she did not mean it? Can someone answer me that? Because I have never read anything in the story that indicates Sakura was such a good actress that could FAKE feelings.

 

Anyway the fight happened after this. Naruto told Sakura she was lying to herself and she got angry, and told him him if he did not like her then just say so, But did Naruto reject her? No. He said it was strange that she would confess to him out of the blue and tell him to forget about bringing Sasuke back, which makes sense, because again he doesn't know Sakura and Sai's conversation took place. Sakura does not tell Naruto why she came to talk to him just for that, nor what her goal was. She then claims that she doesn't want Naruto to to burden himself with his promise to her But Naruto says there are other reasons for him to go after Sasuke, like the truth about Itachi for instance, but again he does not disclose to her either. Notice how everything would not have ended as sour as it did if they had just talked it over and actually explain the reasons why they are doing what they are doing.

 

Ultimately my point is, The confession wasn't false, it was keeping facts and information from each other that they ended up falling out in that particular time period. the thing is Sakura sounded genuine and Naruto was act blushing in addition to his shock. IT WAS when Sakura brought up her statement that Sasuke meant nothing to her anymore that Naruto suddenly became Suspicious. Afterall What does Sasuke and the POAL have to do with Sakura confessing her love for him if Naruto did not even bring it up? 

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 October 2017 - 09:38 PM.

[kirabook]

I don't mind the confession at all, but it was poorly written and now that the manga has "ended", it makes no sense in or out of context.

 

I think what Kishi was going for was a defining moment where Sakura truly gave up on Sasuke and left it to Naruto. It should have been the moment where she realized her feelings wouldn't save Sasuke, only Naruto's, and therefore, she would support Naruto even in the final battle. She can't face Sasuke alone.

 

I think in the end, that feeling got across for me, but in the stupidest way possible. Sakura's confession played off seriously, but it quickly went downhill at the mention of Sasuke. During this confession scene, Sasuke shouldn't have been mentioned at all. It made Sakura look silly and deceitful. It lead Naruto to believe she was lying, and it made Sakura seem uncertain about her feelings.

 

I think the confession scene should have played out much the same. Sakura confesses to Naruto, but Sasuke is never mentioned. Naruto doesn't believe her, and it ends with her insistent that she's telling the truth, and to her surprise, maybe even hurt by his confused rejection.

 

She would have then gone after Sasuke to kill him which was her original goal. She went there to either bring Naruto back with her safely, or to kill Sasuke who was hurting Naruto in a multitude of ways. Sai should have explained she was doing this to protect Naruto, not a confusing mess about how she loved Sasuke, therefore she must kill him.

 

During the confrontation when facing Sasuke, it is then that Sakura should explain her intentions and how she wants to break the promise because of how much it was hurting Naruto, but Naruto would correct her and say he wanted to bring Sasuke back for other reasons too.

 

In the end, Sakura would have come to a similar conclusion. Only Naruto can help Sasuke, or rather, she is not the one who will save Sasuke, but Naruto that is how she can help, but helping Naruto.

 

Sakura had been clearly moving on from Sasuke as the series continued on and it only makes sense. She hasn't seen him in years, and every time they've met they've tried to kill each other. Sakura's feelings shifting from love to ... pity? seems like a logical transition. But that's not the only point. The other point is reiterating Sakura's promise to be there to help Naruto bring Sasuke back next time. Like, that was SUCH an important moment that was never truly fulfilled in the end. Sakura didn't help with anything.

 

If the scene had gone down like this, Naruto and Sakura v Sasuke would have made sense. Unfair maybe, but that is the scenario that was hinted at since the end of Part 1. So, to conclude:

 

I don't mind the confession as it is written now, but as it stands, it makes no sense and it's the turning point in the series towards its inevitable dive into the dumpster.

Edited by kirabook, 02 October 2017 - 11:32 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yes - there were themes that Kishimoto was obliged to fill in hooking the reader in the premise of the story. Promises or 'contracts' he'd made with the reader. The problem is the promises were not fulfilled. And not by any of the characters. None of their arcs were resolved. And I don't mean that they were resolved counter to how I wanted them. The very themes the story was built upon were not resolved by Neji's death nor Naruto's pairing with Hinata nor Sasuke/Sakura's rekindling of a relationship and subsequent life paths.

 

The story ended, yes, and it ended in a way that made some people happy. But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten. The dark hero's redemption story (which could have carried the underwhelming hero's journey) was half-hearted and ultimately unconvincing. Even Sakura's evolution might have saved it, as she was the last part of the three main characters, but she was abandoned completely. So there is no one left to connect the ending of the story to the motivations of the beginning.

 

It's still disappointing. Even all this time later. 

 

Yeah, it is, Tricksie, and it's irritating how everything had to be done as it was and how Kishimoto makes it feel like we have to just "accept" the ending, when the ending is a hot mess that just is a lot of crap I'd rather flush down the toilet than deal with AT ALL. Seriously, he failed to do anything right by his characters, which is where I can see if he even was to try a new series, no one with half a brain would wanna read it because they'd know better from the Naruto fiasco.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And that is a sign of true/real love right there. When it comes to Naruto; Sakura always puts him first. It's not about her own desires or her feelings, it's about Naruto's safety, his goals and his feelings. Even if with the confession it's not so well thought out.

And it's not like she's fangirlying over him, or worshiping I guess is the more appropriate word here, and being completely stupid about it.

She's protective of him. She genuinely cares about him.

And this goes all the way back as far as the written test portion of the Chunin Exams, where Sakura was willing to raise her hand and have Team Seven forfeit and eliminated from the Chunin Exams because she didn't want Naruto to lose the chance at his dream which, from what they all knew at that time, if they were to remain, but fail whatever the tenth question turned out to be, they could never take the Chunin Exam ever again for the rest of their lives. Not once did Sakura think about how Sasuke might feel about things. She was only thinking about Naruto and his future being impacted.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

And this goes all the way back as far as the written test portion of the Chunin Exams, where Sakura was willing to raise her hand and have Team Seven forfeit and eliminated from the Chunin Exams because she didn't want Naruto to lose the chance at his dream which, from what they all knew at that time, if they were to remain, but fail whatever the tenth question turned out to be, they could never take the Chunin Exam ever again for the rest of their lives. Not once did Sakura think about how Sasuke might feel about things. She was only thinking about Naruto and his future being impacted.

 

Yeah, which is the great thing about it for sure; she knew Naruto had been working hard since they became a team, and she just wanted to protect his dream, something no one else would do, just like when she performed CPR on him after Kurama was extracted from him and he was dying.