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#61 FireFox

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 12:12 PM

I should not use justify but strengthen the claim that NS should happen, because bs happen kind of like ff8 with squall and rinoa.

 

I don't think bs is hetero narusasu, not anymore since salad is not burito equal (that's "nail" job). she's the heroine and the one who's similar with the former one. I mean what make salad much more likeable than sakura is that there's no lovesick fan girling sasuke. And she has already combat prowess.

I don't think combat wise salad will learn anything from naruto, since every single naruto jutsu already burito learned. Burito know kg bushin and rasengan, he will learn toad summon from naruto and what left for salad is some will of fire teaching.

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If sasuke is a female, it will change team seven dynamic. Like Kishi would make sakura like naruto and naruto has no feeling toward her. And the pairing war would be with narusasu and NS.

Fair enough 

 

Even if that's the case for now do you really think they gonna go through with that!? Remember who you're dealing with here, I bet you by the end they gonna reverse all of that and say it was for drama purposes only as a means to keep you second guessing and keep you "hooked" on it. Seriously did we not learned how they operate by now!? All I'm trying to say is don't get your hopes up or let yourself be fooled by that. Heck I just remembered now that Sh!tmoto in one of his divine interviews even said that Sasuke also acts like the Heroine in the story  :roll: .  

 

Well that's precisely why I say it implies at NaruSasu their combat skills doesn't matter much now but who are they striving to be like they are pushed like that since the beginning for this sole purpose only, its just that the situation is reversed with the Salad being the Naruto and Burito being Sasuke everything else is a decoy . 


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#62 James S Cassidy

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 07:01 PM

Sakura was actually extremely nice to Naruto. I think it's an anime viewer thing. She is not mean to Naruto after like chapter 5 or so. She did things like offer to feed Naruto when they were in a public place where anyone can get the wrong idea about them. How is that not nice?

"First Impressions" I guess.

But like I said, this only applied to Sakura....like all the other characters from Sasuke to Hinata and even to Ten Ten got this whole "shakabuku" change in the fans. "Sakura is always a kitten, but everyone else can go from evil to good as much as they want. LIke how Hinata goes from weak to strong." 

I just don't understand why noone will give Sakura credit for anything and any Anti-Sakura fans keep saying how "pro-sakura" fans needs to wake up to the reality that she is a kitten.

Well I say that any Pro-Sasuke fans need to wake up and realize that Sasuke is the most apathetic person who has a gay crush on Naruto and couldn't care less about his own family.
Pro-Naruto fans need to wake up and realize that Naruto doesn;t give a kitten about Hinata what so ever and cares even less for Boruto or his daughter. He also has this gay crush on Sasuke.
Pro-Hinata fans need to wake up and realize that she is not strong, she is not a good person, and she is not perfect for Naruto. They need to realize that she is the real villain in the series and not the "perfect girl" they all want to think she is. Wake up and read the manga for Christ's sakes.
 

 

She's fangirling sasuke and doesn't like naruto back. (Comically) hit him and basically become useless kitten.

@james
I know, I just make comparison. If they make salad female sasuke or make her a male character then it will make their decision to forsake NS make sense. I will surprise when bs become canon they will said that bs is NS ver.02

They already do say that. They say that we NaruSaku fans should be happy because BoruSalad is basically NS and that we got our "canon pairing" with them and that we should stop complaining now.

*sigh* It's funny because imagine if NaruSaku was canon with Shinachiku and he got together with whatever hell spawn that was Hinata's....I bet you they wouldn't take it as the "basic NH pairing."


Edited by James S Cassidy, 15 December 2017 - 07:04 PM.

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#63 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 07:06 PM

BS is not NS and never can be. We didn't want NS solely because of "dynamics" like Tsundereism but because of history and developement.

Also Burrito is a little kitten and completely unlikable.

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#64 Phantom_999

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 07:11 PM

Exactly, this logic is complete utter hookiedooks.

"Sakura can't be with Naruto because she too abusive to Naruto."
So, why does Sasuke get to be with Sakura when he was abusive to her the entire manga?"
"That's different. Sasuke had a hard time expressing his inner love."
(That is what the whole excuse was that either Sasuke didn't know he was in love or that he had a hard time expressing love)

"Hinata loved Naruto since the beginning so she deserves him."
Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning so why didn't he deserve Sakura?
"Naruto didn't and never loved Sakura. Where is the proof that he loved Sakura?"Um
Um, he said it to Sai, he expressed it throughout the manga by asking Sakura on dates, and he even expressed it tons of times to the frogs. Every saw that he loved Sakura.Even the officialy databooke say that he is in love with Sakura.
"Well, that was just a silly crush and not true love."
Where did Naruto say he loved Hinata?
"Oh, he was secretly in love with her since the beginning. He just didn't know it yet."

What is with this excuse of "This person didn't know they were in secretly in love." Okay, so I get that some people might not understand love when it is obvious, but this usually happens between friends or close best friends when they feel happy and excited to be with each other. People can see that their connection is stronger than with anyone else...maybe even a girl/boy they could be dating right now. How does this apply to Naruto and Hinata when Naruto NEVER thought about Hinata like ever? He never expressed a happiness around her that he didn't express with anyone. He did so with Sakura. Even in Gaiden when talking about her he had that iconic smile that we know and love. A smile he never showed when with Hinata. Same with Sasuke and Sakura, when did Sasuke ever express that he felt a weird connection with Sakura? He spent more time expressing his connection with Naruto than anyone else. Sakura never even came into his mind unless she stood right in front of him.

HOW IS IT LOVE WHEN THESE GUYS DO NOT THINK OF THEIR SUPPOSED "LOVE INTEREST" UNLESS THEY ARE STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM? That is Not love. I know what love is. Everyone knows what love is. I am tired of this excuse that Naruto and Sasuke had this "super secret, unknown to them, decoder ring, legend of the hidden temple, ouiji board, horoscope, mythical, supernatural, morse code, love" that they had no idea about until someone told them that they did. Since when does love have to be told to you for you to be IN love? How many stories where people told someone that they are going to marry, love, and be with someone that they have no connection with where the main character says "I don't love them" and everyone thinks "Man, she totally loves that guy?" Hell, in Romeo and Juliet  they killed eachother rather than being told who they loved and what to do. Imagine if Naruto and Sakura did that.

This excuse needs to stop. Just admit it is a retcon. At least do that, but no they don't want to. They want to continue to believe that Kishimoto is some secret genius that pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and "Oh ho ho, surprise." I am sorry, he is not a genius and this was never planned. You wouldn't have needed to make Naruto the Last if this was all "planned." This is a dude who, while writing the manga, said "I don't know how to defeat Madara. I made him too powerful.

 
WOW doesn't that sound like............... *takes off shades* A LOVELESS ARRANNGED MARRIAGE???????? *dun dun dun* :zaru:


Edited by Phantom_999, 16 December 2017 - 03:57 PM.

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#65 Nate River

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 03:39 AM

To Nate:
What I find interesting about this is that you mention that because we know Naruto's backstory she is automatically hated due to the bench scene. It's even funnier when the fans selectively ignore all the good scenes in the series. Looking at what Analyzer said about Sakura not being a Tsundere...if that is true, then why is she hated? Sakura was nice to Naruto after she understood him. Many of the villagers became nicer to Naruto after they understood him. Neji and Gaara treated Naruto like kitten, but I don't see people constantly hating on them. I don't see Neji and Gaara being told how bad of people they are.

[
I'm a bit unclear, were you using my post as a spring board to other stuff or is this a direct response? I didn't mean for my post to be read as a comprehensive explanation as to why she is disliked, only a partial one. I think those things matter. Fair or not, first impressions matters, and she exhibit traits of a Tsundere. People tend to very opinionated about that type.

It's not simply the bench scene either. There are several scenes in the beginning. As for Neji and Gaara: its not an apples to apples comparison. They were villains and why they were asses to Naruto ended up being because of their own tragic past. I don't know how Neji was initially received, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was poorly because he came across as a pretentious ass and wailed on Hinata because of his issues with others. He reasons for doing so become clear quickly and are tragic. Same for Gaara.

 

Sakura? She didn't like him because she saw him as getting in the way of her pursuit of Sakura. Many Naruto fans didn't like Sasuke either and the reasons is underwhelming in comparison to Neji and Gaara. Worse, the anime reinforced the tsundere traits and introduced Hinata's crush on him much sooner. You knew within the first 5 or so episodes he had a silent supporter...someone who didn't hate him. If your exposure is mostly anime...then she comes across as a much more traditional tsundere than she was in the manga. 

 

As I said before, I didn't really intend it to be comprehensive, just that I think she started behind the 8-ball from the get go because of those things. 

 

If the manga were about her would it matter? It might because we'd know why she thought this at a minimum. We have no idea, only that she does and that, because of what Naruto went through, it seems unfair that, at the beginning, she doesn't give him a chance.
 

 

Now, you might say that over time Neji and Gaara were nice to Naruto, but so was Sakura. She was being nice and supportive of Naruto long before any of these characters were supportive. So why is she still getting hate? People don't mention all the nice things Sakura did for Naruto during the whole entire series.

 

I explain Gaara and Neji above. It's not the same. That said, as for why, I'm sure the reasons varied. Anime Sakura, they were in Camp Hinata by that point, they didn't like her character archetype (just like I dislike Hinata's as a general rule), I'm sure the reasons vary. I don't want to generalize because there isn't going to be one reason. Finding the most prominent would require me to spend time doing things I have no desire to do toward an end I don't care about.
 

 

So why is it only Sakura that gets the "curse of the first impression" while everyone else people have allowed the change and reevalution? How many people hate Kushina because the first thing she did was hit Naurto? "Oh Kushina is an abusive mother."

 

She isn't. What is the comparison point? It's anedoctal and so this comes with that major caveat in mind, but in fanfiction, I saw kitten Sasuke or Emo Sasuke all the time. Lee frequently got protrayed like he was on a constant sugar high and as if the only emotion he ever had was over-exuberance and as if he only operated at exictement level 9000. His portrayal reminds me of how Duo Maxwell from Gundam Wing got protrayed by a bunch of people who didn't understand his character. Lee gets typecasted and flanderized in a similar way.

 

Tsunade is frequently portrayed as a raging alcoholic whose is intoxicated 100% of the time and hates paperwork. She has never completely shed it.

 

Jiriaya still gets portrayed as a relentless pervert. 

 

Don't get me started on Shikamaru.

 

Those portrayals lingered. I would disagree that they ever completely escaped them.

 

 

So why does everyone else, after learning more about them, get this change of idealogy about their character and move beyond the first impression, but Sakura does not? Sakura is the only character where people refuse to acknowledge anything beyond that so called "first impression." "She is a kitten...she hits people....she is obsessive...and she is a horrible person." It's like me saying "Kushina is a horrible mother and she is a kitten. I am glad she is dead because she left Naruto alone in the world." Would that be justifable based only on the first impressions of her character?

 

She did hit people. I'm sorry, I know it was a joke, but that scene where Naruto gets decked because of what Sai says makes her look bad. Yeah, it's intended comedy, but it's just not funny. It was few and far between in the manga, so it didn't bother me. If I watched the anime, where that supposedly, happened alot it might matter. It helps though, that I, in general, like her character type.
 

 

What kind of impressions would Minato and Kushina get if we had a story focused on them growing up, Kushina being a kitten to Minato, and Minato being the hero after a tragic backstory....and so on and so forth. Would they see Kushina as a kitten because she first treated him like crap? Let's throw in another shy character like Hinata into the mix. Would people want Minato to be with her and not Kushina or would the preconceived notion that Minato and Kushina getting together is inevitable and would they ignore all faults right off the bat?

 

We don't know because it's a story that's never told. 

 

 

 

I am truly curious about all of this. I am asking these question because it feels like people haven't asked these to people. It's like such obvious and common sense questions that people are just letting roll off and never giving thought about and it is these kind of questions that prove just what kind of fans people are when it comes to this series.

 

In many cases, people like what they like. It's not always going to be fair or have a concrete explanation.
 

 

It even becomes more evident when you have Naruto NOW as an adult and as a father treating his own kids just like some of the adults that treated him like he was a kid and people are okay with this. Does Naruto's tragic heartbreaking backstory excuse all his behavior now? The neglect he has for his kids, the downright "too busy to give attention" like some adults were to him, the favoritism of one other person over his own flesh and blood like how Hinata showed favoritism to Naruto over Neji, and so much more.

 

Naruto having issues as a parent is not hard to imagine precisely because he didn't have any. He doesn't appear to have any example until he was 12. The issue with Boruto is not that he has them, it's why he has them. A workaholic? I could believe that given how he feels about the job and village...a workaholic on the mundane paperwork....not a chance. Send the shadow clone instead of leaving it behind to do the work....nope. As I told Analyer, its much easier to see him as a Patton type, where he feels he has to be every were, on the ground, solving every single problem. I can see that. Obessing over paperwork, the part of the job everyone would expect a man-of-action to hate? I just can't see it. 
 

 

Does Sasuke's "cool guy" demeanor give him the excuse to be a bad father that neglects his family and doesn't care about them at all? Is it all of a sudden okay for Sasuke to be bad to his kids because his family was bad to him? Does he get a pass because Sasuke is a tragic character with a heartbreaking story or because he is cool or is it because of something else.

 

I'm not sure anyone says this. It's more like the series just kinda glides right past it in true Naruto fashion. They have that heart to heart in Gaiden and suddenly years of absenteeism is swept under the rug and we are all great. I guess they migth suggest his mission justifies it, I'm not 100% and I honestly don't care enough to look.
 

 

To me, it is not the first impression that is the problem. No, it is the "false impression." This claim that these characters are one thing and not the reality that they are. Naruto is a huge scumbag. He is and no amount of tragic backstory erases that. It should not excuse that behavior. I myself have never let my low points in life become a reason to treat others like crap. Do we forgive a murderer for killing people all because his father raped him as a child? No. We still put them to death or life in prison. We still punish and hold people accountable for their actions despite their backstories. In fact, myself did the opposite of it all. Because people never listened to me, I made it a point to listen to others. Because people never gave me respect I chose to give others respect in return. Whatever I never got, I tried to give to others because I know how it feels to be on that opposite side of the fence.

 

I think you are conflating ideas such as accountability with forgiveness. People have forgiven murders. It doesn't mean they want them out of jail. 

As for accountability...yeah, Naruto the series seems to have no clue what that is or what it looks like. I get some...liberties will be taken because of the inherent tension between that and redemption, but the manga doesn't even try to deal with this, but then it has had that problem for years. It's the most offensive thing about the original manga.
 

 

Naruto should be loving and caring for his kid as his father because HE never had a father growing up and this is a plot device in the story that Naruto is never around for Boruto. That is Boruto's stuggle. Should we sympathize with Boruto and say "Hey, it is okay, he has a heartbreaking story?" I don't see anyone sympathizing with Boruto on anything. They see him more boring and too priveledged to be considered a tragic hero.

 

Yes, I agree. Boruto's attitude is similar to Naruto's initial one, but it doesn't work nearly as well because Boruto gets portrayed as you describe and he lacks the tragic past need for people to look past the crappy attitude. It also doesn't help that Naruto held relatively relatable and noble goals while Boruto doesn't seem to have those. He thinks Sasuke is cool and wants to be like him (I'm sure in part as a screw you dad thing)...and its not the same. 
 

 

To me, the most pathetic character in the entire series is Hinata. She had everything to her name. She was born into a prestige family, she was rich, she was praised for being the daughter of the leader, but her father saw weakness in her because she was apprehensive and not becoming of a leader. "Poor poor Hinata. Awww, are you okay?" I like how Hinata gets pitied because her mother and father neglect her, but Boruto doesn't get that pity when his parents don't. Again, funny how people pity Naruto and Hinata, but noone else. Not one other person gets that pity.

 

I mostly hate because her he is boring and given no life outside of Naruto. I just can't bring myself to care. Sasuke, at least, stirs emotion, even if its negative. Hinata....I just want to doze off. I hate her archetype because I loathe that shyness is so frequently associated with cuteness and niceness when it isn't necessarily indicative of either. it's a genuine and in some cases debilitating character flaw, but it, like Shikamaru's laziness, ends up being more of a "flaw" that doesn't do alot to hold the person back and gets positive traits attached to it whether warranted by the portrayal or not.



#66 James S Cassidy

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 10:10 AM

I'm a bit unclear, were you using my post as a spring board to other stuff or is this a direct response? I didn't mean for my post to be read as a comprehensive explanation as to why she is disliked, only a partial one. I think those things matter. Fair or not, first impressions matters, and she exhibit traits of a Tsundere. People tend to very opinionated about that type.

It's not simply the bench scene either. There are several scenes in the beginning. As for Neji and Gaara: its not an apples to apples comparison. They were villains and why they were asses to Naruto ended up being because of their own tragic past. I don't know how Neji was initially received, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was poorly because he came across as a pretentious ass and wailed on Hinata because of his issues with others. He reasons for doing so become clear quickly and are tragic. Same for Gaara.

 

Sakura? She didn't like him because she saw him as getting in the way of her pursuit of Sakura. Many Naruto fans didn't like Sasuke either and the reasons is underwhelming in comparison to Neji and Gaara. Worse, the anime reinforced the tsundere traits and introduced Hinata's crush on him much sooner. You knew within the first 5 or so episodes he had a silent supporter...someone who didn't hate him. If your exposure is mostly anime...then she comes across as a much more traditional tsundere than she was in the manga. 

 

As I said before, I didn't really intend it to be comprehensive, just that I think she started behind the 8-ball from the get go because of those things. 

 

If the manga were about her would it matter? It might because we'd know why she thought this at a minimum. We have no idea, only that she does and that, because of what Naruto went through, it seems unfair that, at the beginning, she doesn't give him a chance.

I am not trying to be comphrehensive either. Just looking at the behvior of fans in correlation to their thinking. It's funny how you mention the anime in this because Naruto seems to be the only one that people take the anime over the manga. How many times have people said to you or anything that the "manga is superior to the anime and that should take precedence," but all of a sudden the anime of Naruto all of a sudden has more power above the manga? Also, if that is true, how is it that people love the anime more, but the anime reinforces NaruSaku even more than the manga does by having Naruto tell several more people how much he is in love with Sakura. So, all you are proving to me is that whether it be the manga or anime people are selective with what they want to see rather than what the reality is actually there.

People tell me that I need to read the manga more to see what they see, but when I point out something from the manga to prove them wrong...they continue to be blind. Again, like Analzyer when I pointed out Sakura being a tsundere. Minato ACTIVELY compares Sakura to Kushina and saying they are alike. Kushina is a confirmed Tsundere. So if Sakura is like Kushina...then that is proof that Sakura is a tsundere. How hard is this to understand? This isn't even interpretation, this is manga fact. Unless people want to say that Kushina is not a tsundere.

Also, I don't see Neji as a villain. Opposition maybe, but he wasn't a villain that wanted death to the village, or murdered people, or vowed revenge for the the misdeeds of his clans. He kind was just angry and upset by the branch family and was taking it out on Hinata beating her up because of how ungrateful Hinata is and how he suffered because of her family. Not unlike many other anime I see like Kaze no Stigma.
 

 

I explain Gaara and Neji above. It's not the same. That said, as for why, I'm sure the reasons varied. Anime Sakura, they were in Camp Hinata by that point, they didn't like her character archetype (just like I dislike Hinata's as a general rule), I'm sure the reasons vary. I don't want to generalize because there isn't going to be one reason. Finding the most prominent would require me to spend time doing things I have no desire to do toward an end I don't care about.

Well, I say they are the same. Again, no matter how bad every other character is, they all of a sudden get forgiving by the fanbase....EXCEPT for Sakura. Why does even Obito get more forgiveness than Sakura?

 

She isn't. What is the comparison point? It's anedoctal and so this comes with that major caveat in mind, but in fanfiction, I saw kitten Sasuke or Emo Sasuke all the time. Lee frequently got protrayed like he was on a constant sugar high and as if the only emotion he ever had was over-exuberance and as if he only operated at exictement level 9000. His portrayal reminds me of how Duo Maxwell from Gundam Wing got protrayed by a bunch of people who didn't understand his character. Lee gets typecasted and flanderized in a similar way.

 

Tsunade is frequently portrayed as a raging alcoholic whose is intoxicated 100% of the time and hates paperwork. She has never completely shed it.

 

Jiriaya still gets portrayed as a relentless pervert. 

 

Don't get me started on Shikamaru.

 

Those portrayals lingered. I would disagree that they ever completely escaped them.

 

 

......Again. WHY IS SAKURA THE ONLY ONE HATED FOR THEIR FIRST IMPRESSION?

Jiriaya is still portrayed as a pervert, but he is not hated for it and called useless.
Shikamaru is absolutly one of the laziest characters in the series....and he is not hated for it nor called useless.
Even Obito, who you even expressed dislike for as well, is still far more forgiven than Sakura is. I don't hear much banter about Obito and whatnot. Instead people jsut complain it is a stupid plot point...not that Obito is a stupid character and is useless.

And so on and so forth. I don't see pro-enders constantly saying how bad of a person Shikamaru is for "abandoning his team for the sake of revenge." (Exaggerating yes, but alot of the Sakura hate is over exaggerated as well.) Sakura still gets the most hate even when they got exactly what they wanted her to do and be.


 

 

She did hit people. I'm sorry, I know it was a joke, but that scene where Naruto gets decked because of what Sai says makes her look bad. Yeah, it's intended comedy, but it's just not funny. It was few and far between in the manga, so it didn't bother me. If I watched the anime, where that supposedly, happened alot it might matter. It helps though, that I, in general, like her character type.

*pinches the bridge of her nose*

Narusegawa hits Keitaro like 20 times each and every episode regardless if it is his fault or not in Love Hina
How about all the brutality in Familar of Zero?
Toradora?
Maid-sama?
Soul Eater?
Demon King Daimao

Really, I can keep naming anime after anime with female characters that are far worse than Sakura ever is and besides just because you don't think it is funny does not mean it is never funny. I guess people don't think Hinata tripping on a rock is comedy, but I laughed anyway.
 

We don't know because it's a story that's never told.

 

........so, I am guessing the term "hypothetical" is not really part of the vocabulary then? I guess we lost all imagination then. Can make fanfictions, but can't think of hypothetical situations.

 

 

In many cases, people like what they like. It's not always going to be fair or have a concrete explanation.

Then they can't complain when I call them uncultured or say they are narrow-minded with Naruto as their only base for "anime culture." Really, if they honestly think Sakura is the worst girl in anime history....then they obviously have never seen anime at all. If their entire concept of anime is based off what Naruto did in his series....then I feel so sorry for their stupidity. I have found many people that have only watched Naruto and never any other series. They don't understand anything and this is why I don't accept their logic.

Naruto and Boruto are basically part of the weeaboo starter pack for 2017.
 

 

Naruto having issues as a parent is not hard to imagine precisely because he didn't have any. He doesn't appear to have any example until he was 12. The issue with Boruto is not that he has them, it's why he has them. A workaholic? I could believe that given how he feels about the job and village...a workaholic on the mundane paperwork....not a chance. Send the shadow clone instead of leaving it behind to do the work....nope. As I told Analyer, its much easier to see him as a Patton type, where he feels he has to be every were, on the ground, solving every single problem. I can see that. Obessing over paperwork, the part of the job everyone would expect a man-of-action to hate? I just can't see it.

So how does that explain Sasuke being a bad father when he had one? I find it hard to imagine because I never had a father either and yet I would never treat my own kid this way. Besides, how far can you make this excuse really? "Because Naruto never had a girlfriend before it is not surprising he is miserable with Hinata and doesn't know how to be a good husband."

Im sorry, but no. This does not excue Naruto's behavior. It is just as plausible to make Naruto a good father despite himself not having one at all. It's just not Naruto.
 

 

I'm not sure anyone says this. It's more like the series just kinda glides right past it in true Naruto fashion. They have that heart to heart in Gaiden and suddenly years of absenteeism is swept under the rug and we are all great. I guess they migth suggest his mission justifies it, I'm not 100% and I honestly don't care enough to look.

Go to facebook and look at the Naruto fans there. Go also to Kotaku and some other places where they dwell. Tumblr is also a ceasepool where it occurs. I have seen it.

 

I think you are conflating ideas such as accountability with forgiveness. People have forgiven murders. It doesn't mean they want them out of jail. 

As for accountability...yeah, Naruto the series seems to have no clue what that is or what it looks like. I get some...liberties will be taken because of the inherent tension between that and redemption, but the manga doesn't even try to deal with this, but then it has had that problem for years. It's the most offensive thing about the original manga.

Not true. The Black Lives Matter movements in real life are a huge example of people not forgiving murderers. This is not a political thread, but the bold here is a big fallacy. I am not going to go any further on this, but just saying that it is a big thing nowadays where facts proving reality does not mean people forgive and still hold people accountable. Look at false rape charges and the men that get falsly accused. Even when proven that it was all a lie, people still treat them like kitten with no forgiveness and still hold accountability against them.

However, I am speaking more of the views of other characters and the fans forgiving them to Sakura getting hated for every little thing to Hinata being loved and forgiven no matter what. This is not character to character, but rather fanbase to series. No matter what Sakura does...she is hated for it. Every other character gets a pass by them.

Even here people seem ot hate on Sakura some....

I can never hate on Sakura no matter what she does now. Why? Because the Sakura that we have now is a product of pairing bait and shipping kittenry. Her character was destroyed for the sake of Hinata and her pose. So hating on Sakura for what was purposely done to her because Hinata had to get her way is downright wrong and stupid. What they should be hating on is Kishimoto treating his other characters like garbage for the sake "Hinata and her obsession."

Every single problem in this series now can be traced back to "Because Hinata had to get her way." The hate for Sakura is extremely unwarrented and downright immature. These people need to a smack to the head and a reality check.


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#67 DrK

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 10:28 AM

Ever since I started to like this pairing, I have also lost a lot of respect for Western fans. I didn't like Sakura, but I understood that she was supposed to like and care about Naruto. People say things like Sakura got strong so that Sasuke would like her and they say that in all seriousness. If she ended up with Naruto, obviously no one would be able to say that. There was no way she could have ended up with Sasuke without being hated. Even if she ended up with Naruto she would have been hated, but the difference is that these people would be wrong to do so. Now, if someone says Sakura is a kitten who only cares about Sasuke, I will not say anything against it because they aren't wrong. The ending made that clear. 



#68 Nate River

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:54 AM

I am not trying to be comphrehensive either. Just looking at the behvior of fans in correlation to their thinking. It's funny how you mention the anime in this because Naruto seems to be the only one that people take the anime over the manga. How many times have people said to you or anything that the "manga is superior to the anime and that should take precedence," but all of a sudden the anime of Naruto all of a sudden has more power above the manga? Also, if that is true, how is it that people love the anime more, but the anime reinforces NaruSaku even more than the manga does by having Naruto tell several more people how much he is in love with Sakura. So, all you are proving to me is that whether it be the manga or anime people are selective with what they want to see rather than what the reality is actually there.


That's not been my experience, especially with causal fans whose don't necessarily "take" the anime over the manga. I "took" the anime Sailor Moon over the manga as a kid because that is all I ever saw.
 

People tell me that I need to read the manga more to see what they see, but when I point out something from the manga to prove them wrong...they continue to be blind. Again, like Analzyer when I pointed out Sakura being a tsundere. Minato ACTIVELY compares Sakura to Kushina and saying they are alike. Kushina is a confirmed Tsundere. So if Sakura is like Kushina...then that is proof that Sakura is a tsundere. How hard is this to understand? This isn't even interpretation, this is manga fact. Unless people want to say that Kushina is not a tsundere.


I'm not sure why holding similar archetypes, mandates a particular direction. I think the move to NH was awful, but its not because of that.
 

Also, I don't see Neji as a villain. Opposition maybe, but he wasn't a villain that wanted death to the village, or murdered people, or vowed revenge for the the misdeeds of his clans. He kind was just angry and upset by the branch family and was taking it out on Hinata beating her up because of how ungrateful Hinata is and how he suffered because of her family. Not unlike many other anime I see like Kaze no Stigma.


I'm not interested in hashing out where the line of "villain" is drawn. Needless to say, I mean as a story role rather than a descriptor.
 

Well, I say they are the same. Again, no matter how bad every other character is, they all of a sudden get forgiving by the fanbase....EXCEPT for Sakura. Why does even Obito get more forgiveness than Sakura?

 

You are so sweeping with these pronouncements that I am reluctant to respond because there isn't going to be just one answer and many people don't give him more forgiveness. I'd assume though, that at the top of the list is that they felt sorry for him because of what he went through. Sakura does not have that tragic past and when she hits and yells at him (the very few times she does), it's for petty reasons. That is, at ts core, why some don't like Tsundere's. It's one of the reasons I hated Kagome.

Are these just rhetorical questions? I like Sakura, so I don't get why you keep asking me questions like this. If you really want to know, ask them.
 

......Again. WHY IS SAKURA THE ONLY ONE HATED FOR THEIR FIRST IMPRESSION?


By who? She wasn't. Lots of people hated Sasuke based on this first impression, too.
 

Jiriaya is still portrayed as a pervert, but he is not hated for it and called useless.

Shikamaru is absolutly one of the laziest characters in the series....and he is not hated for it nor called useless.


Was that the intended point? I read your post as arguing that she was the only shackled to their first impression, and not that she is the only one hated for it. I reread that section and yeah, you talk about people being reevaluated, which suggests the point is that they are forever stuck with that impression and not simply that they are hated for it.

If your point by citing all those other characters is that they were able to escape that impression, then whether they are called useless or hate for it is besides the point. My point is that those characters didn't escape those impression universally. For some people they did, for others they did not. This was true of Sakura. I wasn't addressing anything else.
 

Even Obito, who you even expressed dislike for as well, is still far more forgiven than Sakura is. I don't hear much banter about Obito and whatnot. Instead people jsut complain it is a stupid plot point...not that Obito is a stupid character and is useless.


I'm not sure why you cite my Obito-hate as if I'm neglecting it. I lead that train on this board throughout the war arc. I can declare it again, if need be. I despise how Kishimoto handled him. It's not a stupid plot point. His entire character arc during the war arc is a disaster that leads to the worst line in the entire series.

You don't hear much banter from who? I am also a little confused about your use of "useless." I took from your earlier points you referred to her status as a ninja and not as a character in general.
 

And so on and so forth. I don't see pro-enders constantly saying how bad of a person Shikamaru is for "abandoning his team for the sake of revenge." (Exaggerating yes, but alot of the Sakura hate is over exaggerated as well.) Sakura still gets the most hate even when they got exactly what they wanted her to do and be.


I've never heard of Sakura being described that way either. Sasuke on the other hand....

 

*pinches the bridge of her nose*

Narusegawa hits Keitaro like 20 times each and every episode regardless if it is his fault or not in Love Hina
How about all the brutality in Familar of Zero?
Toradora?
Maid-sama?
Soul Eater?
Demon King Daimao

Really, I can keep naming anime after anime with female characters that are far worse than Sakura ever is and besides just because you don't think it is funny does not mean it is never funny. I guess people don't think Hinata tripping on a rock is comedy, but I laughed anyway.


1. I am only familiar with 2 on that list, so it does nothing for me.

2. I didn't assert that just because I felt that way others did as well. I intended to offer my opinion, which is all I did. I did not intend to speak for others.

3. Whether Sakura is better or worse is besides the point. I don't think its funny. That Narusegawa is worse doesn't change that. I still hate that scene.
 

........so, I am guessing the term "hypothetical" is not really part of the vocabulary then? I guess we lost all imagination then. Can make fanfictions, but can't think of hypothetical situations.


It was at one time, but while I was in law school some dood forced me to do a bender in class. And because in law school you do hypothetical everyday, the word gets used a lot. So, just as I was downing the last, the teacher yelled  "hypothetical" and so the word was forever bleached from my brain.

 

I tried to give you a straight up and cordial response. You gave me this. I can be ass, too. 

As for your hypothetical, well, I think its equal parts useless and disingenuous. Either they wouldn't call Kushina that and be "hypocrites" or they would and be "idiots" or something along those lines. It's hard to read that post and think you intended a serious or genuine response to it. I preferred to largely side-step instead. But since we're here, I suppose this is fine too.
 

Then they can't complain when I call them uncultured or say they are narrow-minded with Naruto as their only base for "anime culture." Really, if they honestly think Sakura is the worst girl in anime history....then they obviously have never seen anime at all. If their entire concept of anime is based off what Naruto did in his series....then I feel so sorry for their stupidity. I have found many people that have only watched Naruto and never any other series. They don't understand anything and this is why I don't accept their logic.


I hate when fandoms behave this way, it's obnoxious and pretentious. You might as well tell them "You're not one of us, you troglodyte. You don't know how to enjoy it the right way." I soured on certain sports fandoms because their fans behaved this way.
 

So how does that explain Sasuke being a bad father when he had one? I find it hard to imagine because I never had a father either and yet I would never treat my own kid this way. Besides, how far can you make this excuse really? "Because Naruto never had a girlfriend before it is not surprising he is miserable with Hinata and doesn't know how to be a good husband."


The one that was killed in front his face when he was six? One of the sources of his life-long trauma that consumed the way he thought for most of his life?

Besides, these aren't absolutes and as I'm sure you know, that just because you responded one way to not having a father doesn't others do. It was you who asserted that because he lacked parents he wouldn't be neglectful. I think his lack of family makes it believable he would have issues of his own as he would have no example to follow. Regardless, I think him having issues with Boruto is believable if done correctly. In Boruto, it wasn't.

Who is excusing Naruto's behavior? I am speaking to whether its a plausible characterization of Naruto not stating that it is okay for him to do so. I'm not trying to justify it. I only mean, as my post makes clear, that its not had to see him throwing himself fullblown into this job at the expense of everything else. I just doesn't work when the part of the job he is doing it for is the mundane paperwork about stuff we never hear about. It could work, but it doesn't because the details are so lazy.
 

Go to facebook and look at the Naruto fans there. Go also to Kotaku and some other places where they dwell. Tumblr is also a ceasepool where it occurs. I have seen it.


Nah, man. I'm not a masochist. Besides, I don't give a damn what they think. No interest in seeking out opinions I care nothing about.

Besides, I wasn't talking about the fans. I was referring to the characters in the story.



#69 RulesofNature

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 05:55 AM

 

I am not trying to be comphrehensive either. Just looking at the behvior of fans in correlation to their thinking. It's funny how you mention the anime in this because Naruto seems to be the only one that people take the anime over the manga. How many times have people said to you or anything that the "manga is superior to the anime and that should take precedence," but all of a sudden the anime of Naruto all of a sudden has more power above the manga?

 

I think a big part of this was Naruto's anime was a big reason why it became popular in the West. I remember getting into the manga around it's start in the American Shonen Jump magazine, and no one had heard of it at all. But once the anime started airing in NA, it was freaking everywhere. Believe it! The anime's what got people's attention and first exposure is an important factor I think. Plus it's easier to do something like Naruto abridged (spreading the word through memes) with moving pictures.

 

In addition, a couple days ago I wrote the manga felt like it was being written in service of the anime. At least, that's how it felt as it went on with how it introduced new characters and world elements to be explored more in it's adaptation than in the source material itself. For a lot of favorite characters, the anime served as a means to flesh those characters out. As much as Naruto's filler is reviled (Believe it!), it also enabled a lot of the B-Cast to shine brighter. We can all find that moment in the anime where a favorite character like Gaara or Lee kicked ass they didn't elsewhere (or staring at Hinata's boobs), because the manga ended up just being the bare bones the flesh and fat of the anime was built on top off.


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#70 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 04:12 PM

I think a big part of this was Naruto's anime was a big reason why it became popular in the West. I remember getting into the manga around it's start in the American Shonen Jump magazine, and no one had heard of it at all. But once the anime started airing in NA, it was freaking everywhere. Believe it! The anime's what got people's attention and first exposure is an important factor I think. Plus it's easier to do something like Naruto abridged (spreading the word through memes) with moving pictures.
 
In addition, a couple days ago I wrote the manga felt like it was being written in service of the anime. At least, that's how it felt as it went on with how it introduced new characters and world elements to be explored more in it's adaptation than in the source material itself.

I picked up the manga before the anime even had a dub, before 90% of people even knew
How to get subs lel. I was already 3 volumes deep when my brother started downloading subs and we watched them together.

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#71 Iwantbuns

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

I love Sasuke but I think they dragged his revenge for a little too long... Shippuden Sasuke was so disappointing, he should've just came back to his friends and been good again! Why'd he have to be so evil at some point x( I mean, his evil moments were pretty funny sometimes, but honestly he should've just come back. But I guess it's understandable from Sasuke's point of view. Still, Part 1 Sasuke will always hold a special place in my heart. After all, I feel like he just gets sort of psycho and not cool at all in Shippuden.

 

Anyways yeah, I like Sasuke. He's a fun, cool, character.


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Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#72 T XD

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:38 PM

I like pre-ending Sasuke, but I'm not fine with how he got overrated halfway through the story with the skills, his background story and too much focus on him by the writer and the characters.



#73 sushi.

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 02:14 PM

I like pre-ending Sasuke, but I'm not fine with how he got overrated halfway through the story with the skills, his background story and too much focus on him by the writer and the characters.

Yes. I think because Kishi extended the series by a lot, he didn't know what to do with Sasuke. I don't have a strong opinion of him, but there was definitely too much focus on his character. It was all very inconsistent and confusing.


Edited by sushi., 28 December 2017 - 02:14 PM.

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#74 T XD

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 04:40 PM

Yes. I think because Kishi extended the series by a lot, he didn't know what to do with Sasuke. I don't have a strong opinion of him, but there was definitely too much focus on his character. It was all very inconsistent and confusing.

I think the fact that Sasuke is his favorite character played a role with the overrating of Sasuke's character.


Edited by T XD, 28 December 2017 - 04:41 PM.


#75 Phantom_999

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 12:39 AM

I WILL SAY THIS. Naruto and Sasuke's rivalry would have worked out fine with out that tragic bromance that takes precedence over everything in the story. Just saying  


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