26 replies to this topic

[jim1982]

I'm glad that Naruto understood that a forced requisition of peace isn't peace, but peace out of fear. As others have said before, it looks like Pain's motives are to destroy the whole ninja world and focus people's anger toward one enemy in that way they will all be united.

Looks like Kishi has been watching a few episodes of gundam 00.

actually this kinda reminds me of a cross between Gundam 00 and Code Geass with its "Zero Requiem"

[psycho666]

You know, the logic in this story is very twisted. Naruto wants peace and justice but the only thing he's doing is rampaging revenge on all the 'villains' that seem to have a slightly different perspective. Nagato wants peace and justice and the way he's going to do that is by blowing up villages and collecting the 9 most dangerous beasts manifested from hatred and evil. I wonder if this whole thing will end a little more diplomatically with the revelation that there is no peace, I mean, that's why ninja's exist in the first place, isn't it?

[Nate River]

You know, the logic in this story is very twisted. Naruto wants peace and justice but the only thing he's doing is rampaging revenge on all the 'villains' that seem to have a slightly different perspective. Nagato wants peace and justice and the way he's going to do that is by blowing up villages and collecting the 9 most dangerous beasts manifested from hatred and evil. I wonder if this whole thing will end a little more diplomatically with the revelation that there is no peace, I mean, that's why ninja's exist in the first place, isn't it?

Nagato's definition of Peace is incredibly simplistic. He sounds like he views peace simply as the absence of war. If that's your starting point is that then Peace through oppression is still peace. It's closer to enslavement than genuine peace. Pain will fire the weapon and fear of it's further use will prevent anyone from doing anything that encourages its further use, in this case war or things considered acts as war. If you see peace as being the equivalent of no war then you get what you want even if its through mass murder and brutal oppression. He also seems assume his own death in all this and that his demise will cause people to eventually forget, at which time war returns and someone else like-minded takes his place and Peace resumes.

I don't think Naruto's ideas of peace are what drives him to defeat Nagato. Despite what Naruto says here, Naruto always appeared to fight for the protection and preservation of what he holds dear and, aside from his way of the ninja, Naruto appears to value his precious people more than ideals like Peace or Justice.

One thing I wondered when he swore vengeance for Jiriaya's death was how Kishi could distinguish this goal from Sasuke's pursuit of Itachi. Kishimoto essentially side-stepped the problem by having Naruto meet Pain now because Naruto can fight Pain as a matter of protecting what remains of the village and its people. He can obtain his revenge in a fight of protection, meaning Naruto never has to independently justify his pursuit of vengeance. It's disappointing in one respect because I would have loved to watch Naruto try and explain to Sasuke why his relentless pursuit of revenge is wrong and why he should return to Konoha.

By going after the same thing Naruto, would have obliterated any moral authority and would have sounded like a flaming hypocrite by saying that. It would have been a great scene, but the timing of Pain's assault and Naruto's return makes that irrelevant by giving Naruto and independent reason to pursue Pain specifically.

[FullmetalNinja25]

I apologize for my previous post on this Chapter, I do not hate this Chapter and I do not think it's filler. I just hate the fact the fight between Naruto and Pain is interrupted so Pain can spew his bs, yeah that's right I called Pain's views bs.

[VNgal]

On page 16, where the real Pain first shows up, I thought he was Orochimaru for like half a second! Anyways, I like his logic even though it involves a whole lot od unhappiness......

[blindeye]

Nagato's definition of Peace is incredibly simplistic. He sounds like he views peace simply as the absence of war. If that's your starting point is that then Peace through oppression is still peace. It's closer to enslavement than genuine peace. Pain will fire the weapon and fear of it's further use will prevent anyone from doing anything that encourages its further use, in this case war or things considered acts as war. If you see peace as being the equivalent of no war then you get what you want even if its through mass murder and brutal oppression. He also seems assume his own death in all this and that his demise will cause people to eventually forget, at which time war returns and someone else like-minded takes his place and Peace resumes.

I don't think Naruto's ideas of peace are what drives him to defeat Nagato. Despite what Naruto says here, Naruto always appeared to fight for the protection and preservation of what he holds dear and, aside from his way of the ninja, Naruto appears to value his precious people more than ideals like Peace or Justice.

One thing I wondered when he swore vengeance for Jiriaya's death was how Kishi could distinguish this goal from Sasuke's pursuit of Itachi. Kishimoto essentially side-stepped the problem by having Naruto meet Pain now because Naruto can fight Pain as a matter of protecting what remains of the village and its people. He can obtain his revenge in a fight of protection, meaning Naruto never has to independently justify his pursuit of vengeance. It's disappointing in one respect because I would have loved to watch Naruto try and explain to Sasuke why his relentless pursuit of revenge is wrong and why he should return to Konoha.

By going after the same thing Naruto, would have obliterated any moral authority and would have sounded like a flaming hypocrite by saying that. It would have been a great scene, but the timing of Pain's assault and Naruto's return makes that irrelevant by giving Naruto and independent reason to pursue Pain specifically.

His village was destroyed by countless wars from other nations. So an absense of war would be the equivilent of peace for his village.

[laslow1234]

"Living within it, aware of the past, predicting the future. That is what it means to know history."

This is the hallmark of what Pein believes some continue to pursue war. Because as the generations move forward, despite how aware we are of the past, there is an ego that slowly forgets because the ego tells us we are different. So unless every individual knows the fear and pain of war; they must be living within this pain and fear. There will be a select few untouched by wars who will start wars in the hope of victory and domination.



A tense state of peace is not really peace. As we have learned in the twentieth century, no bullets have to be fired, no casualties have to occur for a state of war to exist. For much of the latter half of the twentieth century, the U.S.S.R. and the United States maintained a strained peace through fear through the concept of mutually assured destruction. Pain's peace is nothing more than an existence of remembering the horrors of the past, never truly feeling safe about the present and hoping that the world does not end tomorrow.

Pein see the chain of hatred binding generation after generation and as long as there is one generation in a line of grandfathers, fathers, and sons who can see peace, it is all you can hope for. But it will be nothing than an entire generation of armies waiting of one to fire the first shot; the constant fear that one shot heard around the world will trigger the dominoes that will fell peace.

Naruto may be naive in his idea of casting away the chains completely, that one day good and evil will clearly be defined. Naive but with the hope for a great dream. I certainly think the hope is greater than mere breaks and momentary pauses in the chain, inevitably knowing the cycle will resume; you are merely "predicting the future". Naruto may never achieve those great dreams of that great end, but the hope of shaping of such a future is better than being stuck of a future of slightly different cycle and accepting it.

I love this point it seems also from this view one could see how the author wants to tie in our present day world with ours and provide an interesting question of the will of fire. Simply because Naruto knows what he fights for as it has passed down between his generations. This provides the opposite which is the people who don't know that peace live in that constant fear of that pain which pein would bring to everyone, fur us that weapon would be the (nuke) and the type of atmosphere would be of that of the cold war or worse.

Makes one think of that poem where ignorant armies clash at night.