59 replies to this topic

[shadow_Uzumaki]

^yes, the Cacausian appereance is very wide, it varies.


I think the creators once said that they imagined the people from the Earth Kingdom was Chinese, Fire Nation - Japanese, Air Nomads - Tibetian and Water Tribe - Inuits.

It's not as clear-cut as that. From tvtropes' "Fantasy Counterpart Culture" page:

Cultural Comparisons --Click here to view--

In Avatar The Last Airbender, the Air Nomads are primarily based on Shaolin and Tibetan Buddhism, the Water Tribes on circumpolar indigenous cultures such as the Inuit, the Earth Kingdom on Imperial China, and the Fire Nation on a combination of Imperial China and post-Meiji Imperial Japan. To make things more complicated:
The near-extinction of the Air Nomads can be paralleled with that of the invasion and sinicization of Tibet by the Chinese Communist Party.
The Southern Water Tribe also borrows from various Polynesian and Native American cultures, while the architecture of the Northern Water Tribe capital is heavily influenced by that of China's.
While the political situation of the Earth Kingdom (particularly in the capital of Ba Sing Se) parallels that of the Qing Dynasty's last days, its culture draws from every Chinese dynasty; Toph's family wears Tang-era clothing, Aunt Wu's usage of oracle bones for divination comes from the Shang Dynasty, etc. It also has areas influenced by Vietnamese tribal cultures (the Foggy Swamp Tribe, despite their Mississippi Delta accent), pre-Meiji Japan (Kyoshi Island), the Gobi Desert (the Shi Wong desert), and Korea (as seen with the hanbok worn by Song in the episode "Cave of Two Lovers"), each paralleling a real-life tributary held by Imperial China.
More specifically, Kyoshi Island parallels early Ryukyu Kingdom Okinawa, being a small semi-independent island nominally on the side of the Earth Kingdom/China but strongly Japanese in culture.
Like Imperial Japan, the Fire Nation is an authoritarian volcanic archipelago state technologically superior to its neighbors, with a coal-based military-industrial complex that justifies its conquests with the premise of "sharing prosperity" and uses methods like emperor worship and schoolbook propaganda to control its people. However, its material culture is primarily Chinese.
The Fire Nation also utilizes elements of Thai architecture, most noticeably in the roofing.
The ancient city of the Sun Warriors (the precursors to the Fire Nation) is based off a combination of Mesoamerican and Southeast Asian architecture, while their clothing seems to be primarily derived from Southeast Asian tribal cultures, particular the headdresses which resemble Iban warrior headdresses.

It's quite a read, but tl:dr version is that it's a melting pot of cultures mixed together to create the 4 Nations.

Fictional characters really shouldn't be characterized with the same nationalities in our world unless the setting contains the same nations as ours.

[Super Boom]

I don't know about race, but I've always thought some of the nations in Naruto were intended to reflect modern nationalities. I'd imagine Konoha is Japan by default, Suna would be another Eastern nation, and Kumo would be the United States, or just the West in general. Some of the parallels on the latter seem pretty blatant to me. It seems like Kumo has always been focused on military might, even during times of peace, uses a lot of Western motifs (all the Jutsu and names seem to be transliterated English words), and I believe they're the only country with citizens of a drastically different skin tone.

I've also sort of seen of Tobi's Kirigakure as a parallel to Hitler's Germany, but there are probably more differences than similarities there...

About race, I usually assume all 'white' characters in fictional universes to be of the same race, unless stated otherwise. That's just me though.

Edited by Super Boom, 08 September 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

All I know is Lightning country could be America

and Fire country is Japan.

Wind, Earth still have me puzzled.

Then there's the Water country that could be the Indonesia and everything around it.

[Nefertieh]

Here is the interview:

SJ: If an American Naruto live-action film ever got made, who do you see playing Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke?

KM: Naruto has blue eyes and blond hair, so any child actor in America could play him. Maybe Sasuke would be someone Japanese-American, and Sakura, someone European. I'm not all that familiar with the names of child actors. I only remember Dakota Fanning... [laughs] I love movies and know actors' faces, but not the names.

Source: http://www.thecenter...?showtopic=2604

[GlucoseGlutton]

Here is the interview:

SJ: If an American Naruto live-action film ever got made, who do you see playing Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke?

KM: Naruto has blue eyes and blond hair, so any child actor in America could play him. Maybe Sasuke would be someone Japanese-American, and Sakura, someone European. I'm not all that familiar with the names of child actors. I only remember Dakota Fanning... [laughs] I love movies and know actors' faces, but not the names.

Source: http://www.thecenter...?showtopic=2604

Oh hey Kish is a Dakota fan huh... Well it does make sense how likely would it be for them to find a blonde haired blue eyed Japanese child actor ?

[jworks]

Well they are refured to as Caucasian because they originated in the Caucasus Region, which part of falls in asia so technically asians are caucasian too.

jk though haha.

[K9ofChaos]

For Sakura's case, I could imagine her with brown hair. I say this because I once saw a fan art depicting her as a brunette who dyes her hair pink (along with Ino wearing pupil-less contacts and Hinata with messy hair being straighten out by some sort of hair ironer or whatever that tool is called).

[Lady_duckish]

Just curious.... This doesn't only apply to Naruto, but just about all anime.

They dont need to have stereotypical features for them to be asian. To the Japanese, these characters are Japanese. They don't need to have dark eye color and hair. Any way you split it, you don't see white people with naturally pink or blue hair. If a character does not have stereotypical features, lots of people will just default them to white, despite the fact that other ethnic groups can have pale skin as well. Lots of people do it. I still remember asking my Filipino friend why all of the Sailormoon characters were white girls

In short, the Japanese see these characters as Japanese. From the blond haired blue eyed Naruto and pink haired greed eyed Sakura, all the way to Sausuke, Lee and Neji.
Sure ( while I would hope they wouldnt ) Naruto could be played by some tweeny bopper white American actor based on appearance, but that still doesn't change the fact that he is Japanese.

Here is a nice little article to add to the discussion :
http://thesocietypag...elves-as-white/

Edited by Lady_duckish, 15 September 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

They dont need to have stereotypical features for them to be asian. To the Japanese, these characters are Japanese. They don't need to have dark eye color and hair. *Any way you split it, you don't see white people with naturally pink or blue hair.* If a character does not have stereotypical features, lots of people will just default them to white, despite the fact that other ethnic groups can have pale skin as well. Lots of people do it. I still remember asking my Filipino friend why all of the Sailormoon characters were white girls

That is a double-edged sword. If Japanese see them as Asian/Japanese regardless of features, then I can see them as Americans/Europeans as well simply based on what I want to see. Language doesn't help either cause you can have the characters speaking any language really with any dialect. (Ironic that everyone speaks the same language despite real life where many languages exist.) Funny thing about Cartoons is it not? What if the Naruto universe had it's own language as well, but only spoke English or Japanese just so the viewers can understand it? (Doctor Who logic: universal translator.)

Also, you don't see any race with blue hair as a natural hair color. So that argument is flawed. Pink hair...The closest thing is red hair and EVERY nationality as a red hair recessive gene in them. So again, logical flaw.

In short, the Japanese see these characters as Japanese. From the blond haired blue eyed Naruto and pink haired green eyed Sakura, all the way to Sausuke, Lee and Neji.
Sure ( while I would hope they wouldnt ) Naruto could be played by some tweeny bopper white American actor based on appearance, but that still doesn't change the fact that he is Japanese.

Except there is no such thing as Japanese in the Naruto universe. The world map alone shows a universe that is very different from ours and there is no such thing as "Japan" or "USA." There is only "The land of..." and whatever they may be.

Naruto's manga does have features to different people. The people from the sand are wearing turbans and have darker colored skin than real Japanese people. Are they really Japanese? Killer Bee has African skin and even exhibit the biological traits of an African, is he still Japanese?

What about anime that says specifically where they are from like Asuka from Evangelion. She is from Germany and even speaks German, is she still Japanese? There are even characters in anime that specifically say they are from United States. Again, Japanese?

I think Kishimoto did it right with his manga making characters that can be any nationality and still work. Naruto can be Japanese, but if you want to make him American, that is fine too. There is nothing in the universe that specifically says "Naruto is Japanese."

I don't know why people have a problem with American actors playing anime characters. I can understand if the character was supposed to be Japanese, then it would look weird, but if they have an ambiguous nationality, then why does it matter? Look at Dragonball. Goku is a Saiyan and is not an earthling. He can be practically be played by any one that even remotely looks like him. Characters that are from other worlds are even more ambiguous and can be played by any nationality. (Who would play Piccolo?)

I had an issue with the people who had an issue with The Last Airbender movie.

"It's a Japanese story so it should be made with Japanese people." Except it is an American cartoon. So what does that tell you?

Edited by James S Cassidy, 16 September 2012 - 07:49 AM.

[Dragunov]

Hmmm.....I dont think Kishimoto designed his characters with a set race in mind. For all intents and purposes, they're all japanese.

[Nefertieh]

I wish people actually read the thread before posting.

[Lady_duckish]

That is a double-edged sword. If Japanese see them as Asian/Japanese regardless of features, then I can see them as Americans/Europeans as well simply based on what I want to see. Language doesn't help either cause you can have the characters speaking any language really with any dialect. (Ironic that everyone speaks the same language despite real life where many languages exist.) Funny thing about Cartoons is it not? What if the Naruto universe had it's own language as well, but only spoke English or Japanese just so the viewers can understand it? (Doctor Who logic: universal translator.)

Also, you don't see any race with blue hair as a natural hair color. So that argument is flawed. Pink hair...The closest thing is red hair and EVERY nationality as a red hair recessive gene in them. So again, logical flaw.



Except there is no such thing as Japanese in the Naruto universe. The world map alone shows a universe that is very different from ours and there is no such thing as "Japan" or "USA." There is only "The land of..." and whatever they may be.

Naruto's manga does have features to different people. The people from the sand are wearing turbans and have darker colored skin than real Japanese people. Are they really Japanese? Killer Bee has African skin and even exhibit the biological traits of an African, is he still Japanese?

What about anime that says specifically where they are from like Asuka from Evangelion. She is from Germany and even speaks German, is she still Japanese? There are even characters in anime that specifically say they are from United States. Again, Japanese?

I think Kishimoto did it right with his manga making characters that can be any nationality and still work. Naruto can be Japanese, but if you want to make him American, that is fine too. There is nothing in the universe that specifically says "Naruto is Japanese."

I don't know why people have a problem with American actors playing anime characters. I can understand if the character was supposed to be Japanese, then it would look weird, but if they have an ambiguous nationality, then why does it matter? Look at Dragonball. Goku is a Saiyan and is not an earthling. He can be practically be played by any one that even remotely looks like him. Characters that are from other worlds are even more ambiguous and can be played by any nationality. (Who would play Piccolo?)

I had an issue with the people who had an issue with The Last Airbender movie.

"It's a Japanese story so it should be made with Japanese people." Except it is an American cartoon. So what does that tell you?

The problem with white americans playing roles like Goku, Aang and Naruto is a much larger issue then what I want to get into on here. Seeing as you have a "problem" with those who held issue with the A:TLA movie, then I think you already know why I feel the way I do. You just don't agree with it

I believe the link I posted discussed something about other races and how they are portrayed in Japanese Anime/Manga.

Besides, that is not how the Japanese draw white or even Chinese people. The otherness of foreigners is clearly marked by physical stereotypes – just as Americans do with people of colour. In anime White Americans are stereotyped as having yellow hair, blue eyes and a long or big nose:
http://thesocietypag...elves-as-white/

DING DING DING! EXACTLY! YOU DON'T SEE ANY RACE OF PEOPLE WITH PINK ( RED YES, BUBBLEGUM PINK? NO) OR BLUE HAIR, SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME THAT CHARACTER IS WHITE, OR THAT THE ARTIST IS TRYING TO MAKE THEM APPEAR WHITE??
Sure you can see them as whatever race you want, but the question posed was why do anime characters appear white. Response: They appear white to you, but that was not the intentions of the tons of artist who draw characters who look like Naruto and Sakura.

True, you can dub a show into another language, but with both Naruto and Avatar you can clearly see how certain cultures have HEAVILY influenced them.
Just out of curiosity, would you care to further go into what you meant by your last statement ?

[Catwho]

I've been watching anime for so long now that I actually assume a character is Japanese unless I'm told otherwise. Caught me unwares when I was watching Moyashimon Returns! with my husband the other day - I'd missed a few episodes, and when I saw the character of Marie I had to screech to a halt and backtrack "Wait she's French?"

Unusual hair colors can be utilized in anime and manga to distinguish characters who would otherwise appear similar. Or, as is the case in many shoujo series, an unusual hair color can be used to indicate the specialness, the personality, or the lineage of a character.

To me, that's why Sakura's hair is pink and her eyes are green - not necessarily to indicate whiteness (although if Kishimoto says she's Caucasian I'll take him at his word) but to set her apart and to match her personality traits. The pink hair is her feminine side, the brilliant green eyes are her clear inner strength. Naruto's blonde hair is his naturally sunny nature, and his bright blue eyes reflect the sky, his open minded-ness and big heart.

Edited by Catwho, 17 September 2012 - 02:56 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

No one on Naruto resembles Japaneses, the most closest is that samurai and that guy from the stone, and tsuchikage.
It's not only on Naruto but almost 99% of the animes, neither of the characters resembles Japaneses, i dont know but seems like a taboo to me.

This is something complicated since sec. XX and before the msot of the european nations and western countries viewed the asian people as inferiors.

Even on the Second World War the Americans didnt take Japan seriously until they attacked Pearl Harbor because the U.S viewed then as inferiors, China "colonization" it's a good example too.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 09 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Chucky-kun]

What if I told you, that you should treat naruto as an alternate universe where there is just one race, the human race?

[shadow_Uzumaki]

What if I told you, that you should treat naruto as an alternate universe where there is just one race, the human race?

No, really, that's how I treat most fictional stories that clearly takes place in a different universe.

In Naruto, they're divided via Nationalities native to their own world, Naruto characters in this case are determined by what Village they're from.

Regarding Avatar, I only place them on either of the 4 Nations. However, Korra's series has made a better showing of integration between the 4 nations, ie. it seems like Bolin and Mako are part Fire Nation, part Earth Kingdom, with Mako looking more like a Fire Kingdom citizen and Bolin looking more like Earth Kingdom. Of course, the siblings live in Republic City, which was meant to be a mix of all 4 Nations.

The only time I'll call characters American, Japanese, or Filipino, is if they actually have places called America, Japan, or Philippines, like Marvel or DC or Heroman.

FMA clearly takes place in a European/Germanic country around late 1800s-early 1900s, but I don't call Edward Elric a European or German, he's from Amestris, so he's an...Amestrian? I dunno. While Lan Fan, Mei Ling, and Ling Yao are Xingese, not Chinese, despite the obvious Chinese influence. We even have Izumi Curtis, Japanese last name, living in a European-inspired country, with dreadlocks.

So, while they clearly have real world influence, unless stated otherwise, they're not conformed to the various nationalities we know.


Part of the fun is determining what real world cultures influenced certain characters, in my opinion.

[James S Cassidy]

No, really, that's how I treat most fictional stories that clearly takes place in a different universe.

In Naruto, they're divided via Nationalities native to their own world, Naruto characters in this case are determined by what Village they're from.

Agreed. Nationalities are only based in the world that is created for them. If it is ambiguous, then you can't put a label on it.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 09 January 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Jenskott]

No one on Naruto resembles Japaneses, the most closest is that samurai and that guy from the stone, and tsuchikage.
It's not only on Naruto but almost 99% of the animes, neither of the characters resembles Japaneses, i dont know but seems like a taboo to me.

Nah, it is not that.

First of all, I hope don't get offended, but I would advise you don't put too stock in random pics you find online. That pic you posted is not exactly an exhaustive study about racial differences and how they are depicted in anime. This is only an advice, though, so feel free to ignore it.

Anyway, the matter is very simple: After WWII, manga -and later anime- got a HUGE influence from Western cartoons. Osamu Tezuka -the most influential mangaka ever- LOVED American cartoons (for example, there was a Popeye cameo out of nowhere in one of the first chapters of Goku no Daiboken) and Disney animated movies (if you want to know, he asked Walt Disney permission to adapting Bambie into a manga). He also adopted their art style, and since those cartoons' art style was, well, cartoony (depicting characters with huge eyes, simple features and irrealistic body proportions), and most of the manga creators have been influenced by Tezuka's storytelling and art style (that is especially evident when you read works from people who got directly influence by Tezuka: Shotaro Ishinomori, Reiji Matsumoto, Mitsuteru Yokoyama, Fujio F. Fujiko...), anime characters use to be kind of cartoony. That influence was incredibly blatant in the fifties, sixties and even in the seventies.

Honestly I don't think Japanese care much about their human characters looking alike Japanese. Have you seen pre-Meiji age paintings and carvings? Often the human chracters' features don't seem quite Japanese either.

Jun Hono from Great Mazinger is one of the first black anime characters is a lead character and main character's love interest. There is a funny history about it. You'll see, two different Great Mazinger mangas were produced at the same time due to the success of the series. Go Nagai -the character's creator- drew one of them and one of his helpers -Gosaku Ota- drew the another. Nagai drew Jun like a Japanese girl, but Ota drew her dark-skinned. Nagai liked the idea, so he retconned her character in having always been half-black.

I watched some episodes from Marmalade Boy back in the late nineties. One of the characters traveled to America for a while. I don't remember the characters looking very different than him, physically. I think the most difference is the western characters were taller.

Another thing: most anime is based on shonen or shojo manga. Shonen and shojo manga is made for teens, and it uses to be more cartoony than seinen manga -that is made for young men-. Japanese characters in seinen manga show more Asian traits.

This is something complicated since sec. XX and before the msot of the european nations and western countries viewed the asian people as inferiors.

Even on the Second World War the Americans didnt take Japan seriously until they attacked Pearl Harbor because the U.S viewed then as inferiors, China "colonization" it's a good example too.

You don't have that quite right. Western nations regarded Asian nations like backwards... until the Russo-Japanese War in 1904. When Japan easily crushed Russia, Europe and US started to take it seriously.

The situation on WW II was more complicated than wetern nations not taking Japan seriously. Unfortunately I have forgotten most of my History lessons, so I can't comment on it properly.

I remember, though, that back in the thirties western nations did not care about Japan anexing huge chunks of China. As far as they were concerned, that nation was seeking expanding its land, right like they had done.

[RiderJack]

No one on Naruto resembles Japaneses, the most closest is that samurai and that guy from the stone, and tsuchikage.
It's not only on Naruto but almost 99% of the animes, neither of the characters resembles Japaneses, i dont know but seems like a taboo to me.

This is something complicated since sec. XX and before the msot of the european nations and western countries viewed the asian people as inferiors.

Even on the Second World War the Americans didnt take Japan seriously until they attacked Pearl Harbor because the U.S viewed then as inferiors, China "colonization" it's a good example too.

What bigotry! You got it the other way round. Actually, almost ALL Naruto characters look nothing but Asian/Japanese. In fact, a great amount of them have dark hair and dark eyes, and these people look 100% Asian. Sasuke, Itachi, Sai, Iruka, Konohamaru, shikamaru, Anko, Tenten, Kankuro, Asuma, Kiba, Shizune, 1st Hokage. 3rd hokage, etc. It would be funny and ridiculous if you thought these people actually look even the slightest bit caucasian. In fact, almost everyone in Naruto have slanted eyes with a high and pointy corner.

Let's take a look at good-looking Asians:

Guys:
http://www.faxingw.c...angoufaxing.jpg
http://www.faxingw.c...es/fzlshuge.jpg
http://tinypic.com/r/21lvotx/6
http://www.yh31.com/...01359212962.jpg
http://www.yumo99.co...51415385167.jpg
http://www.91feizhul...0116425412A.jpg
http://tinypic.com/r/29y5zb6/6
http://www.ttoou.com.../200P143W-3.jpg
http://idoimg.3mt.co...13201252650.jpg
http://www.vipyl.com...27175459559.jpg


Girls:
http://tinypic.com/r/2ed1o3s/6
http://tinypic.com/r/2j68oxz/6 (right girl)
http://tinypic.com/r/35hfprb/6
http://tinypic.com/r/2aj0rkk/6
http://tinypic.com/r/2ed1o3s/6
http://tinypic.com/r/28198qw/6
http://ww4.sinaimg.c...dxqajv6p7oj.jpg
http://www.52yiren.c...20088211395.jpg
http://www.phombo.co...12128/popular/#
http://www.phombo.co...rations/page-1/

All of them look more like anime characters than any Caucasians. Other than your pic being inaccurate, your post also goes to show how ignorant and shameless caucasians are.

[jworks]

Agreed. Nationalities are only based in the world that is created for them. If it is ambiguous, then you can't put a label on it.

yeah. Nationality and race in the real world are all directly a result of our own history, even down to evolutionary history. 'White' people developed the way they did because the traits were desirable for their environment in Europe. They needed to be small, and have a large, tight community so they could survive, the light skin wasn't a problem because of the climate. Africans were able to evolve as most suitable for the open plains of their environment. They became large and physically superior so that they could survive being solitary, or in a very small community.

So if all this history and places don't exist in a fictional universe, our labels and understanding of them doesn't apply!

The only blame who could put on races in fiction is the author's subconscious influence. For example I'm sure Kishimoto thinks of his characters as Japanese-ish simply because that is what he is completely surrounded by.