51 replies to this topic

[Strangelove]

Students suspended for a year

http://www.reuters.c...E85T01Q20120630

[James S Cassidy]

Actually, I really don't think you have to either beat nor yell at a kid to get him to learn things. Maybe is because I've studied a bit of Psychology or maybe because I wasn't particularly beat up during my childhood. Heh, I think the worst punishment they can receive are the removal of privileges. Take out a cellphone/laptop of a teenager and see if he doesn't learn his/her lesson.....etc.

I am going to have to disagree with you Shadow on the grounds that my mom beat me when I was younger and I actually thank her today for doing it.

Now, before people get the wrong idea I want to say that my mom never beat me without reason. I was a bad kid when I was younger. I had a temper, I broke things and threw things. Yeah I admit, but now I am a respectable adult. My mother loved me an my brother dearly and she would never abuse us. She just had to do what was necessary since she had to raise us by ourselves. My father was not around as often as I would have liked.

Physical punishment can be suitable punishment if done right. Look at me for example or some previous generations for that matter. Our parents beat us every time we did really bad stuff and we deserved it. We learned from it. Everything has a consequence. And when I say bad stuff, I mean really bad stuff. Hell, I am still slightly afraid of my mother to this day if I do something bad and I am 25 years old. lol That's parenting. She raised me right and I am gentlemen for it.

You have to understand my mom was alone and she had to take care of us by herself. So of course she had to be a little rough at times. She was teaching us. Now I do agree physical punishment is not the ONLY course and that I feel it should only be use in extreme circumstances where the child is just outright bad.

But I don't agree that physical punishment is whole-heatedly bad. Some people think punishing the kids in the video cannot be done because the children are "weak" and you will "devastate their inner child." Bullcrap, these children are not weak and this video proves that they are monsters if left unchecked. That's not weak willed that just off the leash.

Maybe I am old-fashioned, but it is clear that some people's views that you can't hurt the child or punish them is just plain crap. Punish them, show them that they don't rule your life. Don't negotiate with your kids. You can apply a rewards program, but don't negotiate. If they are bad, they must be punished and let them sit through the punishment. Let them realize what they did. They may hate you then, but I bet you when they grow up they will see why you did it and respect you for it.

Mine and previous generations: "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Newer generation: "Sticks and stone may break my bones, but words will devastate my inner child forever."

"Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad"
-Russell Peters.

This is my childhood.

Russell Peters --Click here to view--

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 July 2012 - 04:45 AM.

[krisk]

Actually, I really don't think you have to either beat nor yell at a kid to get him to learn things. Maybe is because I've studied a bit of Psychology or maybe because I wasn't particularly beat up during my childhood. Heh, I think the worst punishment they can receive are the removal of privileges. Take out a cellphone/laptop of a teenager and see if he doesn't learn his/her lesson.

However, there are many factors behind kids who behave like this.

One of them, which worries me, is the policy of parents "giving their kids what they never had". I mean, working extra hours a week to give the kid a Playstation 3 with a Grand Theft Auto game? I don't think that will teach them much about values in life.

Another factor we have to keep in mind is how the environment affects the kid. In a dysfunctional home, the chances of the kid developing the same behavior he sees at his house are high. If he sees violence and disrespect at home, you can be sure that he/she will learn that.

And finally, there also lies the topic of society and media. Man, I'm tired of seeing that the daily programs here in PR are soap operas, violent movies and a 1-hour new which covers all the murders which have happened in the day. I don't see cartoons, educational programs.. in fact, it's been quite a long time since I saw a movie for general people.

Oh, and let's not get started on how the school system has forgotten about values.

Anyway, there are many factors which can be discussed that are the root of the behavior in kids like these. But just looking at them won't do much. The only thing we have left to do is that, in the case we have the privilege of raising children in the future, keep all of these important details in mind.

you're spewing so much truth in this thread I just can't

I completely agree. Raising children isn't as black-and-white as physical punishment is implying. Parents themselves have to take into account of socioeconomic, environmental, media, mental, etc. factors that can and will definitely influence their child adversely.

The parents have got to remember this and adjust how they raise their children to fit these outliers' influences appropriately. Without doing so will cause more harm than good.

In any case, the way their parents raise their children affects at least their first five years of their like (before elementary school). If that time has been used to teach the kid values, he will learn to respect them. Anyway, raising kids can be tough, but just think about the fact that our parents did the same and well, here we are now discussing these interesting topics.

Yup.
and that reminds me of what people are saying - that our generation knew better.

No. No for the love of god, they didn't. Bad parenting doesn't just dissolve through generations, it accumilates sufficiently enough to last through time. My parents got their parenting skills from their parents, and their parents from their parents and so on and so forth. I admit that times are changing, but there is too vast a number of children (which gives way to indeterminate results) to attempt to use as an experimental group.

In fact, I was bullied as a kid. And so were others. By who? By the same kittening kids in the same generation. We weren't all bullies, we weren't all victims - there are too many to account for to compare with this current generation/situation. Our generation is no better than this one - at least in accordance with how the aforementioned strawman falsely suggests.

I am going to have to disagree with you Shadow on the grounds that my mom beat me when I was younger and I actually thank her today for doing it.

Now, before people get the wrong idea I want to say that my mom never beat me without reason. I was a bad kid when I was younger. I had a temper, I broke things and threw things. Yeah I admit, but now I am a respectable adult. My mother loved me an my brother dearly and she would never abuse us. She just had to do what was necessary since she had to raise us by ourselves. My father was not around as often as I would have liked.

Physical punishment can be suitable punishment if done right. Look at me for example or some previous generations for that matter. Our parents beat us every time we did really bad stuff and we deserved it. We learned from it. Everything has a consequence. And when I say bad stuff, I mean really bad stuff. Hell, I am still slightly afraid of my mother to this day if I do something bad and I am 25 years old. lol That's parenting. She raised me right and I am gentlemen for it.

You have to understand my mom was alone and she had to take care of us by herself. So of course she had to be a little rough at times. She was teaching us. Now I do agree physical punishment is not the ONLY course and that I feel it should only be use in extreme circumstances where the child is just outright bad.

before we go further, I seriously don't think you should be using the word "beating" if you're defending discipline through physical harm. Semantics is the furthest issue here; "beat" and "spank" are two very different things. I mean, I don't know enough of your personal experience to conclude whether your mom either abused you or disciplined you so I can't say much - but seriously? If it's the latter, don't use the word "beat" and then defend it. Using "beating a kid" and thereafter proceeding to infer it as something less severe trivializes other people's experiences of actual physical abuse. No offense, but you should try to use "spanking" if your mom didn't beat the kitten out of you as a result of an issue of hers, and not yours.

@we deserved it:
Expanding on your connotation - you exemplified "throwing things" and "breaking things" as your crimes... that's seriously not worth a beating. Kids don't understand the value of physical objects [how could they?] and the fact that your mom harmed you for something children don't understand has me side-eyeing her parental decisions. (Actually I can't think of ONE reason why a kid should get their ass handed to them, unless they're killing people or something)

@you have to understand:
but I don't and I won't. I'm sorry to hear that your mom had it rough, but her being in a difficult situation doesn't warrant her falling back on hitting you to placate the situation. There are other ways to "teach" kids. She suffered from stress, that I can understand, but laying your hands on your children because you can't deal with everything is, frankly, lazy and disgusting.

Also her being a single parent doesn't validate her actions as excusable. There are other single parents - are they allowed to hit their kids because of this? No.

Honestly, I don't think anything really calls for hitting your kids, since personally, that's a really sh*tty way to instill fear/empathy in your child.

But I don't agree that physical punishment is whole-heatedly bad. Some people think punishing the kids in the video cannot be done because the children are "weak" and you will "devastate their inner child." Bullcrap, these children are not weak and this video proves that they are monsters if left unchecked. That's not weak willed that just off the leash.

How does this video prove anything about these kids? I personally don't know these kids history, but you can't asspull anything from their behavior and state it as fact either. How do you know if they're not getting their kitten slapped at home? How do you know if their parents aren't attentive to their responsibilities? How do you know if these kids aren't orphans living with some estranged guardian? We don't know enough to utilize these kids as the statistical representation.

@leash:
I don't know what you mean by this. It may an idiomatic expression, but I read it as an implication that children are sub-human. Clarification please?

Maybe I am old-fashioned, but it is clear that some people's views that you can't hurt the child or punish them is just plain crap. Punish them, show them that they don't rule your life. Don't negotiate with your kids. You can apply a rewards program, but don't negotiate. If they are bad, they must be punished and let them sit through the punishment. Let them realize what they did. They may hate you then, but I bet you when they grow up they will see why you did it and respect you for it.

Mine and previous generations: "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Newer generation: "Sticks and stone may break my bones, but words will devastate my inner child forever."

@plain crap: wat...
there have been numerous studies conducted on this type of deal that prove otherwise (i.e., receiving any physical punishment is positively correlated with mental and social consequences in later life).

For instance, physical discipline affects development adversely. You give a kid a smack for ramifications that the kid doesn't understand from his/her actions - that doesn't instill understanding or insight, it's used to halt the action through fear. Fear is traumatic and develops within a kid's mindset as "pain" which a child will avoid naturally since it "doesn't feel good"

That's one of the most f**cked forms of learning I know of. In fact, it's the direct opposite of what you want the kid to learn - as Shadow stated before - empathy. The child can't learn "the why" and "good vs. bad" of what he/she did because it's skewed away with this overencompassing feeling of fear (an emotion horrifically daunting for a child). Fear deforms further development and negatively reinforces a poor causality learning model (i.e., only through fear will someone/something learn)

in terms of actual studies, for instance, there's a valid association found between low IQs and spanking:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090924231749.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500165_162-5339338.html
http://www.livescience.com/7895-children-spanked-iqs.html

Long-term repercussions > short-term situations tbh


@don't negotiate with your kids:
jesus christ, why not? where else will they learn negotiation skills? how are you being prepared for the real-world if you can't be treated like a human being as a child? off-spring aren't voluntarily signed-up soldiers under your command; just because a parent is the authority figure that doesn't mean they are granted complete absolute power. We're dealing with very impressionable individuals and if you don't practice what you preach, you're no better than a totalitarian sadist

@but I bet you when they grow up they will see why you did it and respect you for it:
You can speak for yourself, but personally I have to strongly disagree. I was hit as a kid and not only was it ineffectual, I still hold resentment over it.

When I was 9-10, my dad b*tch-slapped me for saying "kitten you" to him. Why do you think I said it? Was I being disrespectful? Was I being "off-the-leash"?

No. I used the word (which I had thus far understood as "bad" and only that, i.e., a tool) as an easy way to demonstrate my frustration at being ignored and jealousy of my dad's unreciprocated attention (tennis trip with my dad, thought it was a daughter-father thing, was wrong he wanted to hang out with his drinking-buddies), in hopes of getting what I wanted (i.e., a game with dad). Are those goals worth a beating? No. Did I understand that? Not really (I was too traumatized from being left with a split-lip from my own father). Do I now? Sure, and thus, am so disappointed with how he handled the situation.

He hit me not for my intentions (which seriously were not heinous whatsoever, especially deserving of physical abuse) but for the tool I used. Bad language. That was the falsefied justification needed for my dad to inflict the quick-fix (trauma) to completely stop the situation (me wanting his attention, which he wasn't willing to give).

The punishment didn't fit the crime, through a child's eyes and that's what counts - always counts. If you can't alleviate the problem at it's source, and instead punish the result you'll (YOU THE PARENT) end up with a counter-productive monster. Corporal punishment is a form a bullying in of itself. And if the parent is too lazy to understand why their kid is acting like this and actually work to find an appropriate solution (i.e., Dad will play with you when his friends share Dad [conflict] > If you learn to share [lesson], Dad will play a game of tennis with you too [bargain and reward]) - instead, taking the easy way out - they shouldn't have been allowed to reproduce in the first place.

All in all, I was abused a few times as a kid. Nothing as severe as other people's situations, but I still have lasting permanent defense mechanisms solely produced from how I was disciplined.

I excessively use curse words as a means to be passive-aggressively rebellious in spiting my parents' complete boycott of them in our household (actual solution: negotiation > let me say them when I am really really upset > then explain my reason for saying it > this allows me to figure out when it was/wasn't appropriate to say it through personal deduction and an easily understood justification model that the PARENT can validate > result: I have given actual value to what bad words are and what they represent sans trauma > ta-freaking-da) . I nonchalantly talk about sex (they would harshly shut me up, practically shaming me, when I asked questions about it as a kid [sexism mostly]) to passive-aggressively mock their lazy parenting on the issue of it. I can't help but to be snarky towards them because of the weak reasoning they provided through punishment.

So no, I don't respect them for their laziness. I am utterly resentful for it because if they had just tried a bit harder than giving me smacks, using wooden spoons, folding belts, time-outs in closets, raising their hands for my curiosity, and instead pulled me aside and given me some semblence of reasoning to utilize appropriately to empathize with and understand ON MY OWN, I would have had a completely satisfying childhood.


with that all said, that brings me to your @Let them realize what they did:
realizing that what I did was "bad" doesn't really leave me any room to understand why it was bad as a child. The reason why my action was deemed as punishable outweighs the fact that it was, in fact, worthy of punishment. But if the parent reinforces the opposite of this (i.e., act > intention) the child won't learn until it's too late.

God... that really f**cks up your kid in the long-run. How as a growing adult will that individual be able to discern the origin of an evil/bad act from the act itself? That's not knowledge, that's not deductive skills, that's not moral contemplation.. that's avoidance through fear.

In fact, when fear is understood as an emotion and is given descriptors and personified associations, the adult/teenager in question can use a warped sense of reasoning to rebel against the poor foundation of the emotion itself. Like how I do now with my parents, like how those middle schoolers treated that bus monitor.


psa,
however, of course, don't get me wrong - my parents for the most part did their job. I am respectful to my superiors (e.g., teachers; elders; etc), know that outright sadistic actions are obviously bad, and the weak should be protected and perserved, if not challenged to be stronger. My dad taught me to stand up for myself (negatively reinforced but still), my mom taught me respect (negatively reinforced but still), my peers taught me bad and good things which without both I wouldn't fully understand and demonstrate either, and - through causal reactivity - I learned to teach myself enough to actualize as a secure-minded adult.

my childhood wasn't hell, but in this context I believe that corporal punishment shouldn't be in a parent's arsenal. Either do the work as a PARENT and teach your kids the right way or idk give them up for adoption, send them to a place where they'll have a fair chance at having a stable adult life, or abort the poor kid.

"Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad"
-Russell Peters.

This is my childhood.

Russell Peters --Click here to view--

okay, I don't know if you're being facetious in providing Russell Peters as an example but, just in case you aren't - wat.

His intention is purely satirical. Russell Peters, I am almost positive, is resentful for how his father treated him. Him using it in his stand-up kind of demostrates that he wants it ridiculed to make it lesser than it actually was. He's being cathartic with his disdain; him putting his childhood up for the audience's scrutiny is a form of schadenfreude that his psyche benefits from as well.

I like Russell Peters and relate to his childhood, but I am in no way defending/advocating it. and I really doubt he is either.

[alexander]

So... you told your father to go kitten himself because he didn't gave as much attention as you wanted? Sounds to me like you are being an spoiled brat Krisk. Is that why you turned out to be so rude, sarcastic and coinceited person, or this traits were in your core since day one?

Edited by alexander, 06 July 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[krisk]

So... you told your father to go kitten himself because he didn't gave as much attention as you wanted? Sounds to me like you are being an spoiled brat Krisk. Is that why you turned out to be so rude, sarcastic and coinceited person, or this traits were in your core since day one?

A) Yes, Alex, I was a spoiled brat for wanting to play some tennis with my dad instead of watching him once again abuse booze behind my mom's back
B) Yes, Alex, I knew what the F-word meant at 9 years of age and used it to personally hurt my dad
C) Yes, Alex, I'm a sociopath ingrained with these traits which I suddenly understand the meaning of as an infant
D) All of the above
E)
F)

[Darth Krypt]

Ok after I read that you said "kitten you" to your dad I was like.... Were you being disrespectful? Hell yes. Considering a 9 year old kid is able to spout vulgarities at his/her parents, I think something went really wrong. I guess your parents didn't instill the value of respecting elders to you. The problem isn't you getting beaten anymore. Its about not being taught the right values. Seriously, when I was a kid, the thought of saying "kitten you" to any elder person didn't even cross my mind no matter how kittened up they are.

[kidNinja]

I agree with the others. Krisk, you were completely out of line for dropping the F bomb to your dad. As a matter of fact, after I saw where you said kitten you and then saw how you tried to justify saying it, I didn't read the rest of your post.


I'm 20 now but even I knew at 9 years old not to curse at my parents. You deserved to get slapped by your dad for being a spoiled brat because you didn't get the amount attention you thought you deserved. There IS NO WAY you can justify your disrespect towards you dad, no matter how many paragraphs you write.



Edit: And judging by your rude response to Alexander, I would say that he didn't discipline you enough.

Edited by kidNinja, 06 July 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[kirabook]

Pfft, curse, at my parents?

I would be killed. *not really* I mean, not a days my mom encourages me to open up and curse around her because I'm 20 years old. *problem is, I don't really curse in general so there's nothing to open up about when it comes to cursing*

With my mom nowadays, it's different. She's raised me to a level where we can joke and play around respectively. I can shoot her a bird and she'll know absolutely I'm only messing with her. She teases me about cursing around her because she knows I wouldn't do it to insult her and whatnot. -as I said before though, she does this with my brother too, but he's too young and immature. He doesn't understand that there's a line that isn't to be crossed, but now she won't do anything about it-

As for beating, yes, I did get "beat". What is a spank? A slap on the butt? No, my beatings/whippings were with a belt or a switch. On the rare occasion I did something bad, I would have welts afterwards.

If I did something bad, I was scared for my life -not really my life, but you know what I mean-. I knew that something was coming, I was going to hurt because I did something I was not supposed to do. I knew absolutely what I was doing wrong when I did it, and consequences were never "to be damned."

In some situations, your kids do need physical consequences. "Talking it out" and "negotiating" with a 4 year old isn't going to do anything. They'll forget what they agreed to 5 minutes later. They need to know that doing this will result in that. Touching fire will result in pain, eating candy will result in sweet mouth, touching snow will result in cold, doing something against the rules will result in punishment.

Little kids are not dumb. They are very smart and know exactly what they want, how to get it, and if there are set rules, they know where the line is. If you don't make them understand what happens when they cross the line, then they'll never understand the other lines that life will put in front of them. Just like these boys don't understand that you don't talk to an elderly woman like that, or anyone for that matter. You don't give those little devils enough credit on how smart they are. Also, no one whips their little baby infants. Infants can hardly even move about, let alone cause real trouble.

No, physical punishment doesn't always work, but I feel I can confidently say that majority of the time it does. I'm not talking about abusive parents that smack their kids left and right because they feel like it, I'm talking about a true balance of bad actions and true punishment.

Edited by kirabook, 06 July 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[krisk]

LOL OH YOU GUYS

1) No kitten, Sherlocks. Of course I was being disrespectful, of course I was supposed to be disciplined. If you knew how to comprehend these words, you'd probably be able to surmise that I meant he shouldn't have HIT me to teach me a lesson. He should have done something else. Taken me home? Time-out? Talk-down? Given an explanation as to "why" we don't say bad words to people?

Nope, I got smacked. And what came out of it? I was TERRIFIED of him. That's the lesson I learned, and it stuck with me. I didn't learn why bad words were bad, or that I shouldn't say them to elders, I learned that if I said them AT ALL I would get the kitten smacked out of me. (kind of a sh*tty lesson to teach if you as the parent get to say bad words when you're preaching that bad words shouldn't be said whatsoever). Good lesson? Nah. Taught lesson? Yeah.

Btw, don't make assumptions on one case like you guys kittening know me. My dad is a great guy and he's sacrificed a lot. I know this and I respect him for it. Just because I'm not worshipping his every parental decision, doesn't mean I think he's unworthy of respect. Take several seats.


2) This whole thread is a debate as to whether or not children should be given corporal punishment as a sole teaching tool. It's subjective, and I presented my case. If you had again comprehended my post, you'd see that I offered my personal experience to better explain my position on not hitting kids to prove a point. In your rather bias replies, I guess you guys by default hit kids. Good game.


3) Wow, I didn't know respect was inherent. Guess I missed that memo.


4) Didn't expect to get attacked for being attacked, though. Mods should I delete that portion of my post? Y/N?

Were you being disrespectful? Hell yes. Considering a 9 year old kid is able to spout vulgarities at his/her parents, I think something went really wrong. I guess your parents didn't instill the value of respecting elders to you.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I wasn't disrespectful.

They did actually, one way or another. But hey I guess you think that getting a lesson beaten into you is the only way to go no?

I didn't read the rest of your post.

good job in proving where your baseless ad hominems came from then.

I'm 20 now but even I knew at 9 years old not to curse at my parents. You deserved to get slapped by your dad for being a spoiled brat because you didn't get the amount attention you thought you deserved. There IS NO WAY you can justify your disrespect towards you dad, no matter how many paragraphs you write.

1) I was spoiled? How do you know this? And I didn't think I deserved the attention - I thought I was owed it.
I thought that my dad shouldn't have convinced me to go under the guise that he was going to play tennis with me and then not play tennis with me. Oh kitten you're right! I'm so spoiled for expecting what was promised to me! Damn, to trust in what people promise you, what a childish thing of me to do! You should probably do the honors this time no? idk I feel like you're kind of itching to do so.

2) Again I'm not justifying my disrespect, lrn2read

3) Nice ad hominem there. Implying I write too much which makes those "paragraphs" essentially all verbose bias ramblings. Sneaky.

Edit: And judging by your rude response to Alexander, I would say that he didn't discipline you enough.

-be called names
-wow that's disrespectful
-don't reply with respect
-get reprimanded for not giving respect when none was given in the first place


btw
@he didn't discipline you enough: did you just threaten me? olawd

With my mom nowadays, it's different. She's raised me to a level where we can joke and play around respectively. I can shoot her a bird and she'll know absolutely I'm only messing with her. She teases me about cursing around her because she knows I wouldn't do it to insult her and whatnot. -as I said before though, she does this with my brother too, but he's too young and immature. He doesn't understand that there's a line that isn't to be crossed, but now she won't do anything about it-

sooo jealous of this type of mom-daughter relationship. I hear about it from friends, but my mind automatically thinks "HOLY kitten HOW ARE YOU ALIVE??"

awesome relationship seriously! I can't even say curses around my parents because two things happen: 1) I mentally flinch, which I can't really control now, 2) They still shoot me glares. So now I only sneak it in, or say it around them and not at them. But it's still terrifying. My mom's more lenient, ironically enough in relation to your story. My dad has no tolerance for it, lol.

In some situations, your kids do need physical consequences. "Talking it out" and "negotiating" with a 4 year old isn't going to do anything. They'll forget what they agreed to 5 minutes later. They need to know that doing this will result in that. Touching fire will result in pain, eating candy will result in sweet mouth, touching snow will result in cold, doing something against the rules will result in punishment.

Little kids are not dumb. They are very smart and know exactly what they want, how to get it, and if there are set rules, they know where the line is. If you don't make them understand what happens when they cross the line, then they'll never understand the other lines that life will put in front of them. Just like these boys don't understand that you don't talk to an elderly woman like that, or anyone for that matter. You don't give those little devils enough credit on how smart they are. Also, no one whips their little baby infants. Infants can hardly even move about, let alone cause real trouble.

No, physical punishment doesn't always work, but I feel I can confidently say that majority of the time it does. I'm not talking about abusive parents that smack their kids left and right because they feel like it, I'm talking about a true balance of bad actions and true punishment.

I can respect this viewpoint.

You mentioned if the parent "doesn't make them understand" what it means to cross that line? I can understand and even be more lenient to this type of behavior. Some parents dish out corporal punishment without presenting the reason behind it and/or until the kid gets why they're getting spanked, which I can't really accept. BUT if the parent explains why before a spanking? I'm more tolerant with that, since the lesson is affirmed with the spanking, instead of taught through it.

It's all a matter of balance, and you explained it perfectly.

[kirabook]

I can respect this viewpoint.

You mentioned if the parent "doesn't make them understand" what it means to cross that line? I can understand and even be more lenient to this type of behavior. Some parents dish out corporal punishment without presenting the reason behind it and/or until the kid gets why they're getting spanked, which I can't really accept. BUT if the parent explains why before a spanking? I'm more tolerant with that, since the lesson is affirmed with the spanking, instead of taught through it.

It's all a matter of balance, and you explained it perfectly.

Take my little 4 year old cousin for example. I think the most he has ever gotten is 2 small spanks on his bottom in his entire life.

My grandmother is really sick right now and we're all visiting for the summer. Every time he goes down the hallways, he stops like an elephant. Since these are hardwood floors, it's really loud. He knows what loud means and what is too loud. He gets upset when someone else stomps down the hall while he's watching TV.

Yet, whenever someone tells him to stop, he gets mad and stomps more and tells everyone to leave him alone as he continues about his way. He knows where the line is, he gets louder when people tells him to cut it out.

The only thing his mother does is "talk him down". What does he do 2 minutes later, stomp down the hall as if the conversation never happened. If I had done that when I was younger, I would have been whipped twice over and best believe I wouldn't make a peep.

The proper way to physically discipline a child is to make the rules clear and to draw the line first. When they cross the line is when you retaliate. Take James example... for example. He said he would throw around things and stuff like that before getting whipped. I'm sure he knew that throwing things and breaking them was a definite no no. He cross the line and he got punishment.

As for your situation, you had to have known that you shouldn't curse at your parents. In today's society, it's a sign of "respect", but even that doesn't need to be clear. The basic rule is you shouldn't talk back to your parents or try to insult them, or else. While in some households things are out of whack and the children do need to stand up for themselves, in most homes, the children are supposed to respect their parents while under their roof. -I always found it unfair when I was little, but now that I look back on it today, it's understandable-

Edited by kirabook, 06 July 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[Nate River]

No krisk. I'd feel like I'd be neutering your ability to defend yourself if I made you do that. They resorted to the personal attacks, first. It's an all or none deal. Either everyone has to delete or no one does.

That said, lay off the f-bombs. You initial post (prior to the personal attacks) was full of them. If your quoting someone, that's fine, but most of them weren't.


Everyone needs to lay off the personal attacks. Anyone who resorts to those after this will punished accordingly.

[Greed-Sama]

Ok after I read that you said "kitten you" to your dad I was like.... Were you being disrespectful? Hell yes. Considering a 9 year old kid is able to spout vulgarities at his/her parents, I think something went really wrong. I guess your parents didn't instill the value of respecting elders to you. The problem isn't you getting beaten anymore. Its about not being taught the right values. Seriously, when I was a kid, the thought of saying "kitten you" to any elder person didn't even cross my mind no matter how kittened up they are.

I could care less if you're older than me. You get respect by earning respect, not by how many years you live. My father is 20 years older than me. Left me when I was 5 and never payed a dime of child support. So yes if I were to see him, I'm sure the F word is probably the most respectful thing I'm going to say.

I agree with the others. Krisk, you were completely out of line for dropping the F bomb to your dad. As a matter of fact, after I saw where you said kitten you and then saw how you tried to justify saying it, I didn't read the rest of your post.

I'm 20 now but even I knew at 9 years old not to curse at my parents. You deserved to get slapped by your dad for being a spoiled brat because you didn't get the amount attention you thought you deserved. There IS NO WAY you can justify your disrespect towards you dad, no matter how many paragraphs you write.

Edit: And judging by your rude response to Alexander, I would say that he didn't discipline you enough.

And just who are you riding into this thread telling someone that their parents did a piss poor job of raising them? Were you there? Do you know the circumstances entirely? If the answer is no, which it should be unless your God or Buddha, then you have no business saying juvenile things such as that.

[Sakura Blossoms]

So, since Nate spoke people are still responding to this thread in riled-up tones, it's going to be closed for the rest of the day until people cool down. When it re-opens think very carefully about what you all say next, because like religion and politics talking about someone's family/parentage is a very touchy subject. Check your wordage from now on.

[krisk]

As for your situation, you had to have known that you shouldn't curse at your parents. In today's society, it's a sign of "respect", but even that doesn't need to be clear. The basic rule is you shouldn't talk back to your parents or try to insult them, or else. While in some households things are out of whack and the children do need to stand up for themselves, in most homes, the children are supposed to respect their parents while under their roof. -I always found it unfair when I was little, but now that I look back on it today, it's understandable-

Mm, yeah I do know. Then, too, I knew that bad words were bad (which, if the aforementioned is true, by default then you shouldn't say them against your parents of all people), but I didn't know why they were bad. So the incentive to refrain was very weak, I couldn't find it in myself to stop.

And I'm not justifying myself, just trying to understand why I said it (semi OT about my initial post: I feel I should clarify [i.e., read words > ignore context > attack] before I get jumped on again: As a kid, I didn't think I was being disrespectful because my father's behavior didn't warrant it at that time and/or my intention didn't involve outright malice through the word itself, now he's proven that he deserves/ed that respect and/or I'm actualized enough to deduce that despite my intention, I should have restrained myself, I digress) - which I more or less have boiled it down to premature rebellion born from lack of and/or weak understanding in what my parents were trying to instill in me, that of which influenced my lack of restraint.

For instance, this was around the time when religion was being introduced (read: attempted to be forced) to me (read: into my head). They didn't do such a great job with that area. I recall them dropping my sister and I off at this strange small family-run religious "school" and then picking us up at the end of the day. Instead of asking what I thought about the lessons, they asked if I learned anything. And to avoid a debate (I would inquire about the faulty stuff I was unsure of but would be either waved away or treated like an idiot i.e., "we'll just make sure you stay there longer next time"), I would just reply in the affirmative.

I guess that's where it started. The lack of answers to my questions (e.g., "But how come these higher powers etc.") had me unsatisfied with how they treated me, so I didn't see much point in following the rest of what they preached to the letter, or with as much seriousness as others do. I passive-aggresively demanded a better teaching style, but never got it, so saw no point in practicing the preachings (aka the balance of parent vs. child was off by a huge margin, and both sides suffered)

Other factors that could have played a hand? The gender role I was mandated to fill. My family has a strict, "girls should be in the kitchen > women should find husbands" and "boys should be playing > men should make the money" dictation, which I found to be confusing (even nonsensical), but I couldn't do much when the people around me all felt that that kind of doctrine was the right, and only, one. My mom (probably because of a self-fulfilling prophecy i.e., she was abused by her first husband, so I can't blame her), my girl cousins (they had tons of pressure on them for being the oldest ones), and my father and uncles (proper little girls make proper big girls). The only people I can think of who didn't really enforce this were my boy cousins, ironically enough. They didn't really understand the sexism prevalent in our family's (and in-group society's) foundation, and thus treated me like an equal (e.g., "we know you don't like sailor moon that much, how about we watch some dragonball instead?"; "those Ready Bake ovens are stupid and boring, lets play GoldenEye."; etc).

Anyway, I, like my guy cousins, didn't understand wtf was up with the gender role stuff, so they helped me be who I wanted to be behind the scenes. I myself didn't see the justification in not playing video games and instead cleaning the house, in not playing with legos and instead with dolls, in not wearing pants and instead wearing dresses - all just because I had girl parts. Still don't of course, but that's pretty obvious lol.

Summarily, as Greed mentioned about "circumstances," I had many that might have been the reason why my tongue was so sharp in that moment: I didn't think the reasoning behind the weird teachings I was getting were a constant in plausibility, so I figured "saying bad words is bad justcuz" fell underneath that mindset as well. And like you mentioned, kira, "kids aren't idiots" - I wasn't and I was expected to be treated in kind - but unfortunately, my parent's lack of insight into this, and the aforementioned, mindset is what they struggled with. And I reacted, in turn.

also I admit it's not easy, but like I've stated, I don't think you should even have kids unless you're ready to shape them accordingly (despite how much effort you put into it, raising human life shouldn't be placed on a scale of "good enough".)

That said, lay off the f-bombs. You initial post (prior to the personal attacks) was full of them. If your quoting someone, that's fine, but most of them weren't.

completely fair, shriner. A time and a place, I agree.

Sorry if it counts for anything. It's kind of a hard habit to break.
When I'm with peers, I kind of let them fly as much as I can, so as long I can get away with. Anyway gotcha! Lay off 'em, gotcha gotcha.

[Darth Krypt]

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I wasn't disrespectful.

They did actually, one way or another. But hey I guess you think that getting a lesson beaten into you is the only way to go no?

When I was 9-10, my dad b*tch-slapped me for saying "kitten you" to him. Why do you think I said it? Was I being disrespectful? Was I being "off-the-leash"?

No. I used the word....

Well how else were we supposed to interpret this? If that's not the case then I apologize because my whole post was made because I thought you were a brat who thinks spouting vulgarities at their parents isn't disrespectful. I guess the rest interpreted it the same way as well.

And no, please please please don't assume that those of us who support beating their own children think this way. Do not use the words "only way to go" and the like. Ok can't say for the others but for me, what I think is beating your own child is ONE OF the ways to REPRIMAND your child. And the keyword here is reprimand. Like some of the guys said before, you have to draw the line first and make sure the child knows what is it and when not to cross it. And most importantly, why. Children are smart enough to understand but them being kids, of course they would want to "test the system". If they do cross the line, to me a good scolding should be enough to at least let them know what they've done is wrong. We shouldn't tell them nicely if not they'll just step all over you and run rampant.

You have to be stern. But if it gets really bad then I think beating them would be necessary. I don't know about you but what I get from those who don't agree with this think that people who supports beating their child just beat them every opportunity they get for no good reason. No that's not what we want. It is just one of the methods to keep your child in check. If you're strict enough, no beating is required. My mom took care of my baby cousin and she was very strict with him. She scolded him every time he did something wrong and said why not to do it. He turned out to be a well behaved boy. No beatings required from her and she used to smack me silly(when I'd done something wrong of course).

So what I think about the kids in the video is that they weren't reprimanded for things they've done wrong. So once they kept growing up, they realized there's no real consequences when they do stuff they know they shouldn't do. Because no one was there to tell them off.

Anyway about the Russell Peters joke, I think the point he was trying to put across is the difference in the way Western parents and Asian parents discipline their child. He even brought up on how his white friend said "kitten you" to his mom and she didn't do anything. And the usual way of them to "discipline" their child is to send them to their room which does absolutely zilch. That's the lazy way to bring up your child. Nothing was said at all, how is the child suppose to understand the mistake they've made? Not saying all white parents are like that, but I have not known a single Asian parent who just sent their child to their room and does nothing else.

Again, sorry for the bad assumption made.

Edited by Darth Krypt, 07 July 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't want to get into any more serious arguments on this thread, I just wanted to say I completely agree with this. Learning a kid discipline and respect is important and some are easy to discipline while others are not. I was a pretty calm kid and I could be reasoned with words but when I did something really stupid I got a light slap. And it was more than enough to teach me a lesson. So when I talk about beating I don't mean to beat kids up badly in any way, sometimes just a light slap on the butt is enough to teach them a lesson when they're being impossible.

Well, I want to apologize first if I sounded like I sounded intimidating or anything like it with my argument. It wasn't my intention to do so and I would certainly miss your replies if you refrain from a discussion because of me. That same goes to everyone else: if by any reason I sounded disrespectful or offensive, I wish to let you know that it is not my intention to do so and I apologize if I sounded like that.

Second, I must say that this is the part where I agree with. When I was talking about physical punishment, I meant hitting with a belt/slipper/tree branch/slap in the face, which are certainly painful and it brings more trauma than knowledge. However, light slaps either in the palm of the hand or in the butt can also help when done with a warning before it and while explaining the kid the reason for the punishment. As many of you have said: a kid is not "stupid", but they lack knowledge. This may sound a bit harsh, but they are completely selfish; therefore, a parent's job is to teach them important values, especially unselfishness and love. Now then, this process is done every day. I mean, we didn't learn our language in one day, right? So why should we expect that our kids learn a lesson in a single day? (at least, in their first years).

And for my final argument, I must say that as far as I've seen, kids learn more from what they witness than from what they hear. In my opinion, the fact that they bullied a lady is product of all they witnessed during these years. If they were bullied or if they saw others bullying people, I'm not sure. However I believe that this is a manifestation of what they've seen in their lives. Now then, with a one-year suspension, I think they will learn their lesson. But I think they must go a bit further and investigate the families and their environment (if this has already been done, they don't mind this part, I haven't read the article completely and thus, I'm not sure).

Now then, I can't say much because in fact, I am not a parent yet. And as far as I see, I don't think I will be a parent anytime soon. Fellow members who are actually parents should be able to tell us which is more effective to teach a kid something. I'm only talking based on what I've read, seen and witnessed, and not for actual experience as a parent. Hence, my opinion might be biased in a way. And this is in fact, why I share my opinion. I want to discuss these points and keep learning. So once again, if I sounded offensive or disrespectful in any way, I apologize. *bows head in apology*

[tricksie]

Well how else were we supposed to interpret this?

That's the point. It wasn't for you to pass judgement about. It was a personal experience. There is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR SLAPPING A CHILD. I don't care what she said. Or how she said it. If an adult or an age peer said "F you," even as angry as they could, you wouldn't straight out b*tch slap them.

Krisk. I'm a mom. Your dad was completely in the wrong. It doesn't matter what you said or why you said it. You were 9. His reaction was out of line and completely rooted in anger and power. Not good parenting. I'm sorry.

This thread was pretty applling and I'm glad it was closed.

As for bullying, you can rail against parenting or crummy generational kids all you want.... But bullying doesn't end in childhood. There are bullies in all walks of life, in all stages (from school to college to business and in social life), and many times the bullying is not straightfoward and easy to recognize. It can be subtle and insidious.

There has only been one thing that has been proven effectively to end bullying. And it works. Over and over again, it works.

Are you ready? Here it is:

You personally take a stand and call out the bully. You don't have to fight the fight, but you make sure they get no positive feedback from you. That attitude is contagious. Other people will listen and will take a stand with you. And if the bullying continues, then you find someone in a position of authority who will listen, take it seriously and act to stop it.

On a bus full of kids, with only a handful abusing the driver, every other kid had the power to tell them to shut up and sit down.

(I'm not arguing the finer points of a kid being scared personally or the possibility that the aggressors were antagonizing other on the bus. What I mean is that bullying controls others with a show of power. Not actually power itself. Intimidation. And that intimidation is as powerful as physical abuse. It can rob you of self-assurance. And instead of keeping a clear head and doing what's right, you feel that they've taken your power away as well.)

I suspect that the kid taping it was making a stand, by taking it and reporting it to parents or administrators. It's a shame it had to get that far before one person, one person out of the rest of the bus decided to take action.

We all are here for the Naruto the manga, but in rl, there really are not that many "Naruto-type" people. Most don't want to get involved or stick their neck out. Which is a shame. Individuals have such power, and bullying tries to snuff that out.

[Lid]

I heard that the guy who set up the donation drive, had a donation drive set up for him for being such a good samaritan!

It's DonatCeption!

[Super Boom]

I was planning on contributing to this discussion earlier, but thought it'd be better to wait until people had cooled down a little. Really people, it's just the internet, and it's not always easy to construe what you're thinking perfectly on a forum board anyway. No point getting riled up, or making personal shots. Remember, a winner debates a post, a loser debates a poster.

Anyways, here's my take.

Physical conditioning can be pretty horrible when taken to the extreme, but I don't think the idea behind it is simple enough to say that there's never an excuse for it. Psychology tells us that there are several 'developmental windows' in a child's life in which different types of conditioning will work or not work. At some stages, simple verbal or social reprimands are enough, and if you can imprint on your child the appropriate values at the appropriate times, then great! Unfortunately, once a certain point is reached, and the kid still hasn't learned values as basic as respect for his peers and elders, then I don't see anything wrong with physical conditioning. I don't think there's ever an excuse for beating a child within an inch of his life to imprint those values, but I imagine parents who still deem that as acceptable are in the minority in the first place. Like I mentioned, if a certain developmental window is no longer open, eliciting discomfort through physical conditioning can easily be a valid reprimand.

The problem though, and which I'd like to hope most people are aware of, is when a parent can't be emotionally neutral when performing that negative conditioning. It really is disgusting when parents take out their frustrations on their child by physically abusing them over the most arbitrary of offences. I imagine problems like that are the reason that physical conditioning seems to be looked at the way it is in modern times. It certainly doesn't help that the only times we seem to see examples of this in media are very extreme or abusive cases. I suppose seeing a mother give her son a quick slap on the behind to keep him from spoiling his dinner doesn't make for good television, though.

However, to say that any form of parenting that makes use of physical reprimands is some drunken hillbilly's form of release, is, well, pretty ignorant. Plenty of people here seem to have varying experiences of being conditioned this way, and, clearly, it seems that different people have different perceptions on their own personal experiences. Does this make anyone wrong? Not at all. There are plenty of factors that determine what kind of effect this style of parenting might have. If done the right way, at the right developmental stage, and taking the various types of personalities that physical conditioning might work well or adversely on into account, a style of parenting using this type of conditioning could be easily be a positive influence. The few times I recall my own parents using it, I seemed to remember the shame outweighing any form of pain involved, if any.

Heck, I'd say it might be preferable to have gotten a spanking than having your peers see you sitting alone in the corner after yelling a profanity, or having to see that look of pure shame on your mom's face as she finds a pack of cigarettes in your room. That right there would probably be my biggest argument against physical conditioning; emotional and social scars can dig way deeper than anything physical.

Anyways, I honestly can't say whether or not this style of conditioning is intrinsically good or bad, because there really isn't an answer. Developmental Psychology is one heck of field, one that's still not fully understood.

That's all I got, sorry for the LAP. I'll close with this random clip that comes to mind whenever I hear people talking about this subject. Even if it is a lot more extreme than what would I generally deem appropriate.

Boondocks-Bratty Kid --Click here to view--

Edited by Boom...Winning, 07 July 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[krisk]

Well how else were we supposed to interpret this? If that's not the case then I apologize because my whole post was made because I thought you were a brat who thinks spouting vulgarities at their parents isn't disrespectful. I guess the rest interpreted it the same way as well.

and like clockwork...
you were supposed to KEEP reading and base your reply on my entire post and not on a knee-jerk reaction to five or six words put together. The context in my post should provide more understanding than one sentence alone.

See my previous post, clarifying:

(semi OT about my initial post: I feel I should clarify [i.e., read words > ignore context > attack] before I get jumped on again: As a kid, I didn't think I was being disrespectful because my father's behavior didn't warrant it at that time and/or my intention didn't involve outright malice through the word itself, now he's proven that he deserves/ed that respect and/or I'm actualized enough to deduce that despite my intention, I should have restrained myself, I digress)

Then, I didn't think I was disrespectful.
Now, I do think I was disrespectful.

I can't make it clearer than that. Different factors have allowed me the necessary insight in acknowledging the fact that yes, I was disrespectful. Then, as a child, I was merely using a tool that I knew would get me my goal (i.e., probably that promised game with dad, which I have stated for the umpteenth time) - that was the context of my post, which was ignored or disregarded.

My dad was the adult, and despite how emotionally reactive the TOOL I used was, he should have known that a nine-year old (who showed no signs of sociopathic behavior prior to) was incapable of outright malice. And then acted like a PARENT should, instead of going straight for physical punishment. You, on the otherhand, can defend him as much as you want, but I believe that if a man smacks a little girl a fourth his size just to prove a point, then he doesn't deserve an ounce of respect for it.

Clarification of my clarification:
For slapping me, no he didn't. For raising me, yes he did.
For using a bad word as a tool, no I wasn't. For not restraining myself and using some other method my dad wouldn't have reacted so drastically to, yes I was.

My father and I were both lazy in that moment, and we both suffered for it. I just didn't think people would attack a 9-year old's actions, defend so vehemently a father's choice to resort to violence as a means to end all, all the while projecting their indignation onto her now grown-up self. jfc.

And no, please please please don't assume that those of us who support beating their own children think this way. Do not use the words "only way to go" and the like. Ok can't say for the others but for me, what I think is beating your own child is ONE OF the ways to REPRIMAND your child. And the keyword here is reprimand. Like some of the guys said before, you have to draw the line first and make sure the child knows what is it and when not to cross it. And most importantly, why. Children are smart enough to understand but them being kids, of course they would want to "test the system". If they do cross the line, to me a good scolding should be enough to at least let them know what they've done is wrong. We shouldn't tell them nicely if not they'll just step all over you and run rampant.

Don't take what I said as what I genuinely believe in.

I was being sarcastic and disdainful, in reply to your attacks, to elicit the most emotional response. That's kind of the point of making such baseless brusque accusations. See? Comprehend the context. My intention was to make you guys mad and make myself feel better, not make assumptions based on what I truly believe in (for examples see: this thread) - the opposite would further complicate and be counter-productive to what my point (and argument) is in the future.

@please please please:
don't patronize me; one's enough. And really, how else was I supposed to react? I didn't have much to go on.

You're saying all these level-headed and neutral things now but in your initial post you seemed pretty adamant to defend my dad, despite what he did. I based my reply on the overbearing tone of your post, and matched it - not on what I'm seeing here.

I was merely playing your game, following your rules - don't take what I did during the game and apply it here, off the court. It undermines my stance and helps yours by depicting me as some neanderthal incapable of debate.

You have to be stern. But if it gets really bad then I think beating them would be necessary. I don't know about you but what I get from those who don't agree with this think that people who supports beating their child just beat them every opportunity they get for no good reason. No that's not what we want. It is just one of the methods to keep your child in check. If you're strict enough, no beating is required. My mom took care of my baby cousin and she was very strict with him. She scolded him every time he did something wrong and said why not to do it. He turned out to be a well behaved boy. No beatings required from her and she used to smack me silly(when I'd done something wrong of course).

So what I think about the kids in the video is that they weren't reprimanded for things they've done wrong. So once they kept growing up, they realized there's no real consequences when they do stuff they know they shouldn't do. Because no one was there to tell them off.

No, that's not what "we" think - that's a negative blanket statement which would invalidate the rest of our argument (which would help you indefinitely, thus blanket statement).

The point we're (or at least I, but I hypothesize that my stance is closer to others on this "side") trying to get across is that such physical discipline ISN'T NEEDED. You brought up an conclusionary statement yourself (i.e., "if you're strict enough, no beating is required"), and then exemplified it with "he turned out to be a well behaved boy."

If results like that are, in fact, proven through experimentation sans beating, wouldn't the safer course be to not beat your kid? If it's possible to have a well-functioning adult bred from a type of discipline that lacks any sort of spanking, wouldn't it be better to find out how and change your style of parenting accordingly? What have you got to lose if you do decide to raise your kid without hitting them?

I'll be blunt: I think that if a grown adult can't discipline their own child without laying their hands on them, knowingly disregarding that other valid and effective means exist, that makes them a bad parent. If they resort to corporal punishment first (and without any justification) that makes them a kitten parent. If they beat their kid without anything else, or next to no other methods of discipline, it makes them one of the kittentiest parent.

Regardless of physical discipline being ONE of the KNOWN ways to "reprimand" your child, it shouldn't be defended to this degree, nor used as a means to end bad behavior. We used to have worse types of punishments, but do we still use them? No, because ethics has strengthened over time, humanity has shifted it's focus and, as a result, has antagonized these types of methods. In fact, I strongly believe it should be added to the "this is too drastic, too much of an archaic type of discipline, let's discard it and find another safer route" pile.

Raising human life has a sort of scary permanence that is almost irreversible. That said, I don't think we should take a chance on something so serious, despite the level of difficulty the alternative promises for parents.

@video:
again, despite it being your opinion, you have to take into account that we don't know enough of these kids to make solid presumptions like that. You can't disregard the possibility that these kids might be, in fact, getting abused at home, and are acting accordingly with that mindset (i.e., I was disciplined like this, I think this lady needs to taught something [probably she's sub-human perhaps], I'll hurt her to teach her). OR they might even lack any parent altogether, and instead be dealing with desertion.

We don't know enough, and thus, should not utilize it as a means to strengthen our argument. Only until more of these kids' background is presented, can we apply them as circumstantial evidence in our debate.

However, to avoid another trivial argument, I'll clarify that I'm not saying you shouldn't form an opinion on lack of evidence. It's up to you, if you want, and my stating that one should practice restraint and caution in doing otherwise is in no way an implication that I'm attacking you. /p.s.

Anyway about the Russell Peters joke, I think the point he was trying to put across is the difference in the way Western parents and Asian parents discipline their child. He even brought up on how his white friend said "kitten you" to his mom and she didn't do anything. And the usual way of them to "discipline" their child is to send them to their room which does absolutely zilch. That's the lazy way to bring up your child. Nothing was said at all, how is the child suppose to understand the mistake they've made? Not saying all white parents are like that, but I have not known a single Asian parent who just sent their child to their room and does nothing else.

Again, it's called s a t i r e.

He's a comedian, not a professor in child rearing or human development. If he wanted his jokes and anecdotes be taken seriously, he would be in a classroom, not on a stage. And I'm sure he'd hope that his performance wouldn't be included as evidence in a "why beating your kids is right" argument - that's why news reporters don't interview comedians, that's why we don't see Russell Peters Stand-Up specials on psychology syllabi, and that's why we shouldn't use comedy to help put across our points.

@lazy way:
No discipline =/= non-physical discipline.

Parents sending their kids to their room is lazy, I agree, but that's an entirely different type of parenting and shouldn't be included in this debate unless stated otherwise (i.e., total lack of discipline is probably the worst type of parenting, however this type of parenting does not equal whatsoever physical discipline)

@asian parents:
that's a stereotypical generalization which shouldn't be taken seriously. Not to mention racist.

In fact, I'm asian and I know for a fact I won't be beating my kids. Does that make me an outlier or the start of a change in the statistical group?

Again, sorry for the bad assumption made.

whatever. Next time, you should read the entire post and use the context in relation with how you reply instead of knee-jerking, attacking, and thus hurting someone with baseless opinions depicted as facts. And if you're not sure what I mean and/or have some doubts about it then ask me to clarify prior to said knee-jerk response.

What if there was a 9 year old behind this screen who had just finished confiding online about her experience? Would you have changed your tune? Legit question.

That's the point. It wasn't for you to pass judgement about. It was a personal experience. There is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR SLAPPING A CHILD. I don't care what she said. Or how she said it. If an adult or an age peer said "F you," even as angry as they could, you wouldn't straight out b*tch slap them.

Krisk. I'm a mom. Your dad was completely in the wrong. It doesn't matter what you said or why you said it. You were 9. His reaction was out of line and completely rooted in anger and power. Not good parenting. I'm sorry.

I completely agree. I've stated above, but I'll say it again: If a parent has to resort to violence to prove a point, that greatly hinders their validation as a parent. (Hell, even as an adult who doesn't even have kids - abusive spouse for instance.) I don't care what the kid does, it's up to the parent to be the ADULT and know that they're dealing with a child (who doesn't even UNDERSTAND right from wrong) and not a self-actualized individual: gauge the child's behavior and adjust your punishment - realistically and fairly - prior to dealing it out. Let the punishment fit the crime, etc.

And it's no problem (well yeah lasting problems, but you know what I mean haha). I know he was in the wrong, and have shaped my plans in parenting accordingly. I guess I should thank him for making my childhood a cautionary tale for Mommy Krisk.

Thanks, though! I really appreciate the help. Seriously. It's kind of tough to bare it all out there, know that I've negatively developed from my past and then turn around and get attacked for it. It blind-sided me, if anything.

You personally take a stand and call out the bully. You don't have to fight the fight, but you make sure they get no positive feedback from you. That attitude is contagious. Other people will listen and will take a stand with you. And if the bullying continues, then you find someone in a position of authority who will listen, take it seriously and act to stop it.

On a bus full of kids, with only a handful abusing the driver, every other kid had the power to tell them to shut up and sit down.

(I'm not arguing the finer points of a kid being scared personally or the possibility that the aggressors were antagonizing other on the bus. What I mean is that bullying controls others with a show of power. Not actually power itself. Intimidation. And that intimidation is as powerful as physical abuse. It can rob you of self-assurance. And instead of keeping a clear head and doing what's right, you feel that they've taken your power away as well.)

I suspect that the kid taping it was making a stand, by taking it and reporting it to parents or administrators. It's a shame it had to get that far before one person, one person out of the rest of the bus decided to take action.

Excellent advice. Bullies thrive on attention and when the victim gives them what they want, it only exacerbates the situation to benefit the attacker. Unfortunately, despite Ms. Klein not engaging them, I'm suspecting that the vitriol at the core of the group mentality permeated too effectively, causing the situation to grow too chaotic too quickly (i.e., fuel and fire) until it was too late.

Speaking of positive feedback, I'm reminded of a stupid (as in the bully, who went about his bullying in a totally counter-productive way) moment when I was attacked for my race. Something about my grades juxtaposed with my Asian parents (herp derp asian parent say no A minus! herp). Anyway I remember this older kid, probably 8th or 9th grade, calls me out for it and, despite his glee in his statement, I was totally confused and didn't even respond how he wanted.

I was so young and unfamiliar with ignorant societal standards, I had no idea what race had to do with academics, and was like "wut". It's hilarious because the bully was completely shut-down with my lack of feedback. I was confused, not insulted (enough to be pushed to fight back) and he didn't even have the ground to say more because I was incapable of understanding the intention behind his words. I'm sitting here trying to figure out why he even attacked a child. Despite him displaying his power and sadistically enjoying the freedom he possessed, I don't understand how he expected to gain any feedback from a kid who doesn't understand what racism is.


@kids on the bus taking a stand:
While I know you're not arguing the circumstances, I feel like I should throw it out there regardless for a passers-by reader.

I'm sure it was tough, almost impossible, for the good kids on the bus. Out-group cohesiveness and mob mentality is a tough thing to fight against, and the quiet kids probably couldn't gather enough strength to do so. I don't really blame them, since in-group bias is really a daunting thing to oppose, especially at that age. I take reassurance in the thought that perhaps the good kids on the bus were hoping something would stop their a**hole peer's behavior. A meteor, Superman (screw that, where's Batman), or something.


@kid taping:
Unfortunately, the kid had made the video to show to his peers as proof that him and his friends were actually antagonizing the bus monitor, iirc. I have a feeling this attack was preemptive, and the video camera was there as means to spread word of their "accomplishment."

I seem to remember reading that the video was ripped from facebook and put on youtube which allowed it to grow to this phenomenal level. I'm not positive on this though and will make sure, just in case.

update:
by a few first-hand accounts, it seems that /b/ was the one that ripped the video from one of those idiot's facebook (after it was taken down voluntarily, I believe, to cover their asses) and reposted it somewhere else (probably /b/ itself, and someone might have put it on youtube indefinitely thereafter)

damnit /b/ s-stop making me l-like you

However, to say that any form of parenting that makes use of physical reprimands is some drunken hillbilly's form of release, is, well, pretty ignorant. Plenty of people here seem to have varying experiences of being conditioned this way, and, clearly, it seems that different people have different perceptions on their own personal experiences. Does this make anyone wrong? Not at all. There are plenty of factors that determine what kind of effect this style of parenting might have. If done the right way, at the right developmental stage, and taking the various types of personalities that physical conditioning might work well or adversely on into account, a style of parenting using this type of conditioning could be easily be a positive influence. The few times I recall my own parents using it, I seemed to remember the shame outweighing any form of pain involved, if any.

No one said it was. I'm assuming that what I said is prompting you to add this to your post (since I haven't seen anyone else mention anything related to physical discipline in the tone of it being "a form of hillbilly release"). I won't defend myself because what I said doesn't need a defense - I was being facetious, which makes what I said (in regards to the intention) not applicable to this present discussion i.e., an intentional red herring.

If what prompted that statement wasn't in relation to what I said, then ignore that above.

And I disgree. A positive influence shouldn't have to rely on such drastic measures to demonstrate their reasoning. In my opinion, it's quite nonsensical to result to violence as a means to teach. That's me though, and my personal experience with it.

Heck, I'd say it might be preferable to have gotten a spanking than having your peers see you sitting alone in the corner after yelling a profanity, or having to see that look of pure shame on your mom's face as she finds a pack of cigarettes in your room. That right there would probably be my biggest argument against physical conditioning; emotional and social scars can dig way deeper than anything physical.

Anyways, I honestly can't say whether or not this style of conditioning is intrinsically good or bad, because there really isn't an answer. Developmental Psychology is one heck of field, one that's still not fully understood.

Physical punishment is preferable to acknowledging things like shame and embarrassment because it does two things:
1) It's a definite, if not permanent, means of avoidance of accountability.
2) It causes trauma which will more often than not benefit the parent moreso than the child.

The very confusing feeling of pain from physical trauma that a child receives fully distracts from the lesson that needs to be learned, which in turn is easier to understand (i.e., pain = bad = do not do) and more easier for a parent to instill within a child. Beatings are used as a quick-fix, whereas the shame and embarrassment a kid feels is the first step to acknowledging the why of what they did, and thereafter the lesson. As aforementioned, physical discipline benefits the parent instead of the child: the responsibility to find a means to teach a child a lesson without trauma is decidely more difficult, which demands from the parent a decidely more amount of coinciding effort.

If the parent does decide to go the safer, albeit harder, route they will have to break away from the "adult world" that the child sees but doesn't understand, and put themselves on a level of a child's mentality. That isn't easy. But if a parent can manage this, the lesson will be more easily understood - the parent has walked the kid through the problem on a pace that is fully benefitial to the child (which, as I stated before, is the most important thing).

If not, the parent can completely bypass the real lesson by applying trauma. I can't say this enough, if a child is beat they are being taught that they were bad, and not why they were bad. If you hit a child, they associate the action with pain and fear which makes them incapable of repeating it. If you do not hit a child and instead explain and/or demonstrate just how their action was bad before giving a form of discipline that reaffirms the lesson, they will be able to utilize their own deductive skills to decide whether or not what they did was warrantably bad (which all comes down to just how effective the parent was in their explanation/reasoning/etc.) They may do it again, if the parent failed to teach it effectively, but the child will have a harder time justifying their action because the incentive is struggling against the reasoning they were previously exposed to, thus weakening.

It's all a matter of association vs. causality (i.e., fear vs. empathy) and how good a parent is at their job.

and I disagree: those "scars" a child receives aren't negatively permanent, as the word "scars" implies. I see it more positively, as aforementioned. The fact that you would rather avoid feeling the overbearing guilt after seeing shame on your mother's face or the embarrassment in front of your judgmental peers and instead take the physical trauma, tells me that the quick-fix of a beating is much easier to accept and thus preferable as a means of avoidance - instead of facing what's right there in front of you. Emotional discipline is much more lasting and positively reinforcing than physical trauma because it lacks the negative objectivity that physical pain carries.

The saying "the truth hurts" cannot be more applicable here: physical trauma is just another way a child (and adult for that matter) can avoid what they truly need to come to terms with and/or misunderstand the why behind their action.


Two things semi-related:
1) My replies are in relation to your overall post, not this statement:

That right there would probably be my biggest argument against physical conditioning; emotional and social scars can dig way deeper than anything physical.

I'm assuming it's a typo? Because the context that precedes this statement is decidely supportive of "physical conditioning" against "emotional" moments (e.g., mom's shame; embarrasment in public). If not, it's kind of a contradictory statement to what you said before it, which I doubt you did intentionally. Clarification please?

2) I feel like I should say: don't take what I'm saying as an attack.
I understand that the temptation to avoid the harder "truth" for something easier is very hard to resist. I'm not immune to such a choice - however, I'm just analyzing here and what it means to choose one over the other; I'm not judging you for your preference, whatsoever.

anyway this thread is still dealing with PTSD, so better safe than sorry?


----
an afterthought unrelated to anyone's post:
Ms. Klein was the bus monitor right? What about the bus driver? No matter their circumstance, they should have been aware of the concentrated attention - it's kind of hard to avoid seeing all the kids looking in one direction in the bus driver's full rear-view mirror. And I don't doubt that Ms. Klein might have looked to the front of the bus for help.

Why didn't he/she do the right thing and help her? Stop the friggin bus and chew the kids out? Or stop it somewhere safe and call the inept parents to pick up their turds? See if Ms. Klein was alright? Anything?

It's not always kids that are the problem.

Edited by krisk, 08 July 2012 - 09:25 AM.