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#26761 dl316bh

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 04:30 AM

These people seem to like the idea of Kishimoto being a master troll, without realizing they are actually damaging his reputation in claiming that. Even bad writers are at least genuinely trying to make a story. If we take there word for this, Kishimoto only wasted everyone's time. In addition to wasting our time, he wasted the NH fans' time. Instead of developing the relationship clearly so no one would cry foul, he instead gave us no reason to like NH in the first place.

 

That's just a silly notion in general and I don't know why anyone latches on to it. Because it's admitting that a work, one they'd claim victory in regard to a part of it, is essentially shallow and without merit. If you're making something just to "troll" your audience, it's probably more because you have absolutely nothing to say; a good example are those controversy generator games that go super edgy dark and violent and sick to get eyeballs and kick up a fuss only for it to have no real value. it's something you'd expect out of a total hack. Not exactly flattering to the guy they seem to want to prop up and excuse. In fact, it's probably worse than the criticisms. And also makes their "victory" meaningless.

 

Besides which, no author putting a decade plus into an action adventure series that saw a startling amount of success is going to "troll" their audience. Especially not for something like pairings, which were so minor to the series that we found out in the end no real thought had been put into them. After all, Naruto's not romance genre by a long shot. Authors usually have something to say or at least an idea of what they want to do. Even things with a clear "take that" to the audience - Evangelion springs to mind - is still trying to say something.

 

 

It's nothing new. Young people see something they like, they get butt hurt when they find a critical opinion. It's so important to them to feel validated they will attack anyone who thinks otherwise. Unfortunately, some carry this attitude well into adulthood.

 

Yeah, I always bristle when I see that "young people today" stuff. Or blaming the internet. It's such old man kitten. We were like that too. I was a little kid in the nineties and can remember it pretty well and oh boy, this kind of behavior did not just spring up in todays generation, the internet just let it stretch to people outside of your immediate community. There's a reason we all look back on our younger selves and think we were idiots. We're not all enlightened or anything compared to later generations.


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#26762 KClaws_2

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 08:51 AM

While I agree, I truly believe there was nothing Kishi could do to make Sakura be liked by the people who hated her.

Apart from maybe changing her entire appearance and her behavior as well, thus making her into someone else. Basically making her into a Hinata is where I'm going with it. Maybe that would've had the effect of them liking her. And even that's a maybe since there was already Hinata.

That's my point. There were going to be haters no matter what. Kishi should have recognized that and simply doubled down on improving Sakura. The vocal fans would complain, but real fans would have praised her development and the haters would just go on off to their own clique, and everything would be fine.

 

Wait. You used to watch Spill too?

Yup, fun times. Though I miss their animated caricatures, I still enjoy seeing Korey and Leon Martin talking about random stuff. Also good to see how far Carlye Cargil has come.

 

 

 

That's just a silly notion in general and I don't know why anyone latches on to it. Because it's admitting that a work, one they'd claim victory in regard to a part of it, is essentially shallow and without merit. If you're making something just to "troll" your audience, it's probably more because you have absolutely nothing to say; a good example are those controversy generator games that go super edgy dark and violent and sick to get eyeballs and kick up a fuss only for it to have no real value. it's something you'd expect out of a total hack. Not exactly flattering to the guy they seem to want to prop up and excuse. In fact, it's probably worse than the criticisms. And also makes their "victory" meaningless.

 

Besides which, no author putting a decade plus into an action adventure series that saw a startling amount of success is going to "troll" their audience. Especially not for something like pairings, which were so minor to the series that we found out in the end no real thought had been put into them. After all, Naruto's not romance genre by a long shot. Authors usually have something to say or at least an idea of what they want to do. Even things with a clear "take that" to the audience - Evangelion springs to mind - is still trying to say something.

If most everything Kishi put in was to troll the audience, then he really had no clue what he was doing. There comes a point where you have to stop misleading your audience and just tell your story. At least other stories with twists TRY to explain themselves.



#26763 DrK

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 10:14 AM

Kishi doesn't have the balls to "troll" anyone, much less everyone...



#26764 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 12:41 PM

Kishi doesn't have the balls to "troll" anyone, much less everyone...


Yep I mean he had no idea how to end the Pain arc and we are to think he has the brain power to fool all the readers that he is a master troll.

😂 Yeah right the only thing Kishi was good at was his love for the Uchiha and his true love, Sasuke.

#26765 Yyubie

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 04:08 PM

Kishi doesn't have the balls to "troll" anyone, much less everyone...

Ninja must see underneath the underneath ...

 

Naruto transform into sasuke and compliment Sakura is actually not NS moment. It's to open a way for Sakura to Sasuke , without this SS can't never happen and Sakura will give up her crush for Sasuke in time. This moment turn Sakura crush for Sasuke into an "ETERNAL DEVOTION" because she believe no matter how F-UP Sasuke is that charming prince that once compliment her is still somewhere inside him ...

 

Even though Hinata rarely appear and NS moment far outnumbered NH moment , NH still happen. One movies full of retcon instantly destroy the entire 698 of NS development.

 

Maybe THESE is what Kishi's mean by "Ninja must see underneath the underneath" ....

See underneath : NS ending

the underneath of that : NH and SS ending.

Right ... ??


Edited by Yyubie, 13 December 2018 - 12:51 AM.

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#26766 jak123

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 05:31 PM

Ninja must see underneath the underneath ...

 

Naruto transform into sasuke and compliment Sakura is actually not NS moment. It's to open a way for Sakura to Sasuke , without this SS can't never happen and Sakura will give up her crush for Sasuke in time. This moment turn Sakura crush for Sasuke into an "ETERNAL DEVOTION" because she believe no matter how F-UP Sasuke is that charming prince that once compliment her is still somewhere inside her ...

 

Even though Hinata rarely appear and NS moment far outnumbered NH moment , NH still happen. One movies full of retcon instantly destroy the entire 698 of NS development.

 

Maybe THESE is what Kishi's mean by "Ninja must see underneath the underneath" ....

See underneath : NS ending

the underneath of that : NH and SS ending.

Right ... ??

Ugh, that moment pisses me off so much. Her fondest memory of Sasuke was actually Naruto. 



#26767 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 06:36 PM

Ugh, that moment pisses me off so much. Her fondest memory of Sasuke was actually Naruto. 


Whats worse is Sakura will never know it was Naruto.

#26768 Nostradamus

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 07:38 PM

That's my point. There were going to be haters no matter what. Kishi should have recognized that and simply doubled down on improving Sakura. The vocal fans would complain, but real fans would have praised her development and the haters would just go on off to their own clique, and everything would be fine.

 

Oh, ok I misunderstood it.

 

Ugh, that moment pisses me off so much. Her fondest memory of Sasuke was actually Naruto. 

It was Sasuke all the time, you just read it wrong.

Sasuke is so cool and awesome and fantastic and he's an Uchiha and he could never be taken by surprise that loser Naruto, and what you saw was Sasuke disguising himself as Naruto as Sasuke in order to seduce his cherry blossom.

That was the beginning of the most beautiful romance the world has ever known. It was written in the stars.

/s


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#26769 Yyubie

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 01:00 AM

Ugh, that moment pisses me off so much. Her fondest memory of Sasuke was actually Naruto. 

I'm sure you hear it in real life too. Wife married to a F-UP man that do drugs / murderer / criminal , etc and when someone ask the wife "Why are you married to a man like that?" , the wife said "Because he is a good guy and hes not like that when we first meet".

 

Sakura fall into that category , a person that fall in love with a MEMORY. Just one sweet memory and the girl become an eternal maid for the guy , one sweet memory is apparently all you need to lock a girl.


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#26770 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 01:43 AM

While I agree, I truly believe there was nothing Kishi could do to make Sakura be liked by the people who hated her.

Apart from maybe changing her entire appearance and her behavior as well, thus making her into someone else. Basically making her into a Hinata is where I'm going with it. Maybe that would've had the effect of them liking her. And even that's a maybe since there was already Hinata.

What gets me is that Kishimoto kept listening to the minority fandom instead of the majority, but then again A LOT of companies keep doing this.

If you have a 1000 people make a comment...

50 say Sakura is bad and needs to go
950 say they like her and want to see more of her?
They listen to the 50 and push her into the backlight.

50 people say they like Hinata and want to see more
950 say they rather see more of team 7
They listen to the 50 and make Hinata the main heroine.

50 people say NH.
950 say SNS or NS
They listen to the 50 and make NH canon. (Forget SS being canon. That was just them making an excuse for Sakura to be unavailable. If they really cared about SS, they wouldn't have made it so anti-climatic and treated it worse than NH.)

Why are companies listening to this minority opinion? Who cares if that small amount hated Sakura and wanted her to be with Sasuke? You should know that story wise it would not have made sense. Kishimoto SHOULD have known. It is so obvious. Even Kubo stuck with Orihime despite some wanting Rukia. Why?

The pro-enders love saying the words "It is not your story," but complain when Kishimoto doesn't do what they wanted him to do to the point of even threaten him if NH was not canon.


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#26771 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 01:49 AM

What gets me is that Kishimoto kept listening to the minority fandom instead of the majority, but then again A LOT of companies keep doing this.

If you have a 1000 people make a comment...

50 say Sakura is bad and needs to go
950 say they like her and want to see more of her?
They listen to the 50 and push her into the backlight.

50 people say they like Hinata and want to see more
950 say they rather see more of team 7
They listen to the 50 and make Hinata the main heroine.

50 people say NH.
950 say SNS or NS
They listen to the 50 and make NH canon. (Forget SS being canon. That was just them making an excuse for Sakura to be unavailable. If they really cared about SS, they wouldn't have made it so anti-climatic and treated it worse than NH.)

Why are companies listening to this minority opinion? Who cares if that small amount hated Sakura and wanted her to be with Sasuke? You should know that story wise it would not have made sense. Kishimoto SHOULD have known. It is so obvious. Even Kubo stuck with Orihime despite some wanting Rukia. Why?

The pro-enders love saying the words "It is not your story," but complain when Kishimoto doesn't do what they wanted him to do to the point of even threaten him if NH was not canon.


Thats so true James I mean if I was doing Naruto I would have just killed Hinata off a long time ago.

Would people be pissed yes, but we know we those people would be Hinata fans who think that the story was all about her.

#26772 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 02:11 AM

Thats so true James I mean if I was doing Naruto I would have just killed Hinata off a long time ago.

Would people be pissed yes, but we know we those people would be Hinata fans who think that the story was all about her.

And since, like Nostradamus said, there was nothing Kishimoto could do to change their minds, why care so much about what they thought? We know they would never like Sakura even if you made her the most perfect anime character of all time. They would hate her regardless of what she did or did not do. Their viewpoints are obviously extremely biased and can't be held credible. So why listen to them?

I can't believe am going to say this, but Kishimoto can not possibly be that stupid to try and please people who would never be happy while ignoring the people who actually loved Sakura wanted to see more of her.

It was YOUR story Kishimoto. Listen to the people who actually agreed with your viewpoints instead of listening to the people who weren't happy til they got their way.


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#26773 dl316bh

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 06:43 AM

I think part of the problem when it comes to North American fans is one I've seen a bit; they honestly forget that it's not made for them and that popular styles, tropes and character types in Japan play into things like sense of humor over there. I see "abuse" brought up a lot in Anime, usually with heroines like Sakura, because they occasionally hit the male main character for being a dumbass, while the other girls an angel because she doesn't do that. Completely forgetting it's slapstick comedy not meant to be taken seriously at all and Japan loves that sort of thing. It's fiction and it exaggerates character tics. Unless it's Love Hina - which did eventually veer into uncomfortable territory with how often it happened - or something like Evangelions Asuka, which was deliberately meant to show how behavior like that in a more realistic setting would send serious mixed messages and is the sign of a screwed up person, it's not serious violence or meant to be taken seriously.

 

What gets me is that Kishimoto kept listening to the minority fandom instead of the majority, but then again A LOT of companies keep doing this.

If you have a 1000 people make a comment...

50 say Sakura is bad and needs to go
950 say they like her and want to see more of her?
They listen to the 50 and push her into the backlight.

50 people say they like Hinata and want to see more
950 say they rather see more of team 7
They listen to the 50 and make Hinata the main heroine.

50 people say NH.
950 say SNS or NS
They listen to the 50 and make NH canon. (Forget SS being canon. That was just them making an excuse for Sakura to be unavailable. If they really cared about SS, they wouldn't have made it so anti-climatic and treated it worse than NH.)

Why are companies listening to this minority opinion? Who cares if that small amount hated Sakura and wanted her to be with Sasuke? You should know that story wise it would not have made sense. Kishimoto SHOULD have known. It is so obvious. Even Kubo stuck with Orihime despite some wanting Rukia. Why?

The pro-enders love saying the words "It is not your story," but complain when Kishimoto doesn't do what they wanted him to do to the point of even threaten him if NH was not canon.

 

See... was NaruHina even popular outside the US?

 

It's been YEARS, so I can't remember, but did we ever find out what the Japanese thought of the pairings? Because realistically, they matter a lot more than we do. Anime and manga are popular here now, but it's still made to be consumed by a Japanese audience and a lot of them care more about that than over here. Wasn't Kishimoto shocked to find out, only a couple years before the end, it was popular over here?

 

I know SasuSaku and NaruHina were popular over here, but it might just be assumption that it was all "listening to one group of fans over the other". The behind the scenes stuff gleaned from interviews I've heard since poking around here again sound like a Benny Hill routine. There's also the possibility that maybe they just genuinely didn't care when it came to the pairings and just went with whatever. It's not like any of the ones chosen had solid foundation.

 

Thats so true James I mean if I was doing Naruto I would have just killed Hinata off a long time ago.

 

Alright, come on. That's almost petty. Hooking up with the main character aside, Hinata was completely inconsequential to the manga one way or the other. She herself didn't really do anything particularly bad. She just wasn't a factor or useful. Hell, the one time she tried she didn't even get a hit in. No reason to kill her and, frankly, even if she'd been killed off that wouldn't make people like Sakura more.


Edited by dl316bh, 13 December 2018 - 06:44 AM.

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#26774 milan kyuubi

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 06:43 AM

Seriously they put Sakura, Lucy and many others, while Hinata is not there. She should be a kittening definition of a what USELESS means! sigh......

 


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#26775 dl316bh

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 06:45 AM

To be fair, Hinata is not an anime hero. She never did anything except stand up for herself once and get punked in a futile effort to buy time. So you wouldn't even count her.


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#26776 milan kyuubi

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 07:20 AM

Yes. But the thing is, they putting those titles (main cast, heroine, hero) on her anyway.


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#26777 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 07:54 AM

I think part of the problem when it comes to North American fans is one I've seen a bit; they honestly forget that it's not made for them and that popular styles, tropes and character types in Japan play into things like sense of humor over there. I see "abuse" brought up a lot in Anime, usually with heroines like Sakura, because they occasionally hit the male main character for being a dumbass, while the other girls an angel because she doesn't do that. Completely forgetting it's slapstick comedy not meant to be taken seriously at all and Japan loves that sort of thing. It's fiction and it exaggerates character tics. Unless it's Love Hina - which did eventually veer into uncomfortable territory with how often it happened - or something like Evangelions Asuka, which was deliberately meant to show how behavior like that in a more realistic setting would send serious mixed messages and is the sign of a screwed up person, it's not serious violence or meant to be taken seriously.

Honestly, I tend to find that happens among people that constantly boast about liking foreign culture then other people. They like it until it doesn't conform to their standards, and when it doesn't -depending on where it from- they get offended and demand it conform to their American standards.

See... was NaruHina even popular outside the US?

 

It's been YEARS, so I can't remember, but did we ever find out what the Japanese thought of the pairings? Because realistically, they matter a lot more than we do. Anime and manga are popular here now, but it's still made to be consumed by a Japanese audience and a lot of them care more about that than over here. Wasn't Kishimoto shocked to find out, only a couple years before the end, it was popular over here?

 

I know SasuSaku and NaruHina were popular over here, but it might just be assumption that it was all "listening to one group of fans over the other". The behind the scenes stuff gleaned from interviews I've heard since poking around here again sound like a Benny Hill routine. There's also the possibility that maybe they just genuinely didn't care when it came to the pairings and just went with whatever. It's not like any of the ones chosen had solid foundation.

In Japan, Otakus love her but she is just a generic moe girl in a sea of them. So, unless they really love Naruto; she doesn't stand out. Overall, nH is pretty much the same in most of the world. A very small group of losers are obsessed with it her; while the rest don't mind it because they take pity on the shy girl. Most people tend to like other pairings, and are disappointed with the ending even if they didn't mind the idea of nH happening. Outside the US it was assumed NS was inevitable, and people either love it at best or made peace with it at worst. 

 

As for why the US fanbase is the way it is for two reason: One) the anime was cutoff at the end of part one where nH/SS still had a chance, and Two) the mentality of American Millennials.

Alright, come on. That's almost petty. Hooking up with the main character aside, Hinata was completely inconsequential to the manga one way or the other. She herself didn't really do anything particularly bad. She just wasn't a factor or useful. Hell, the one time she tried she didn't even get a hit in. No reason to kill her and, frankly, even if she'd been killed off that wouldn't make people like Sakura more.

Honestly the only reason to kill her is because of the editors' obsession with her. If he was constantly getting into fight with his editors throughout the war arc eventually it would have been for the best to just kill her. So he could regain some control of the story.



#26778 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 08:19 PM

Honestly, I tend to find that happens among people that constantly boast about liking foreign culture then other people. They like it until it doesn't conform to their standards, and when it doesn't -depending on where it from- they get offended and demand it conform to their American standards.

Honestly the only reason to kill her is because of the editors' obsession with her. If he was constantly getting into fight with his editors throughout the war arc eventually it would have been for the best to just kill her. So he could regain some control of the story.

Yeah, and I think we can say that both the Editors and the staff at SP wouldn't be happy if Hinata was killed off and demand Hinata come back in someway.

 

 

Alright, come on. That's almost petty. Hooking up with the main character aside, Hinata was completely inconsequential to the manga one way or the other. She herself didn't really do anything particularly bad. She just wasn't a factor or useful. Hell, the one time she tried she didn't even get a hit in. No reason to kill her and, frankly, even if she'd been killed off that wouldn't make people like Sakura more.

Maybe, but as Bail said the only reason to kill her is because of the editors' obsession with her killing Hinata off would stop the editors wanting more Hinata, and trying to push her forward onto the story, if Hinata was dead then the editors can't do anything, once Hinata is dead because well Hinata is dead and they would move on. 

 

And this goes the same for SP if Hinata was dead then no Fillers with Hinata, most likely they would have stopped the Anime and moved onto something else.



#26779 Derock

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 12:44 AM

Yeah, and I think we can say that both the Editors and the staff at SP wouldn't be happy if Hinata was killed off and demand Hinata come back in someway.

 

Maybe, but as Bail said the only reason to kill her is because of the editors' obsession with her killing Hinata off would stop the editors wanting more Hinata, and trying to push her forward onto the story, if Hinata was dead then the editors can't do anything, once Hinata is dead because well Hinata is dead and they would move on. 

 

And this goes the same for SP if Hinata was dead then no Fillers with Hinata, most likely they would have stopped the Anime and moved onto something else.

 

Here's the deal, the author has the power and decision in regarding to a character's fate. Masashi didn't have the guts (and balls) to kill off Hinata. If he was actually fighting with those obsessed Hinata- editors, he would had threatened them with his pen and the franchise wouldn't be in this predicament. But then again, probably one of them might has a way with words when money is involved.

 

I don't think if Hinata was killed off for real, SP would stop the breaks for the anime. Its very unlikely.  In contrast with Bleach, Naruto would still be a cash-cow franchise.  Though I would've bet we would had gotten some interesting fillers (but someone will probably try to get an idea of an Edo-Tensei Hinata storyline come to life).


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#26780 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 06:29 PM

Honestly, I tend to find that happens among people that constantly boast about liking foreign culture then other people. They like it until it doesn't conform to their standards, and when it doesn't -depending on where it from- they get offended and demand it conform to their American standards.

In Japan, Otakus love her but she is just a generic moe girl in a sea of them. So, unless they really love Naruto; she doesn't stand out. Overall, nH is pretty much the same in most of the world. A very small group of losers are obsessed with it her; while the rest don't mind it because they take pity on the shy girl. Most people tend to like other pairings, and are disappointed with the ending even if they didn't mind the idea of nH happening. Outside the US it was assumed NS was inevitable, and people either love it at best or made peace with it at worst. 

 

As for why the US fanbase is the way it is for two reason: One) the anime was cutoff at the end of part one where nH/SS still had a chance, and Two) the mentality of American Millennials.

Honestly the only reason to kill her is because of the editors' obsession with her. If he was constantly getting into fight with his editors throughout the war arc eventually it would have been for the best to just kill her. So he could regain some control of the story.

Sadly, a lot of "men" here in the US would rather have that out-of-fashion, mindless, soulless, ambition-less, subservient female sex doll rather than an equal partner in an actual relationship. Their "manhood" demands they be the one in charge and be served on hand and foot by the female while still being allowed to do as he pleases, including relationships with other females so they can "ensure their procreation" and other BS like that.

 

 

Here's the deal, the author has the power and decision in regarding to a character's fate. Masashi didn't have the guts (and balls) to kill off Hinata. If he was actually fighting with those obsessed Hinata- editors, he would had threatened them with his pen and the franchise wouldn't be in this predicament. But then again, probably one of them might has a way with words when money is involved.

 

I don't think if Hinata was killed off for real, SP would stop the breaks for the anime. Its very unlikely.  In contrast with Bleach, Naruto would still be a cash-cow franchise.  Though I would've bet we would had gotten some interesting fillers (but someone will probably try to get an idea of an Edo-Tensei Hinata storyline come to life).

I doubt NHers would mind being called necrophiliacs if that were the case.


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