54175 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

So Anyway, again I know I've beaten this to death before But I really must say I've seen things in new perspectives since the series ended. Hinata And Sakura, what they mean to Naruto and the story as a whole, not to mention "fan and public/private opinions of the two which is how we got to where we are now. This is actually a fully serious and non-sarcastic analysis.

 

First off, what do Hinata and Sakura represent, and again what do they mean to Naruto? Hinata is a "Naruto admirer" among his peers which he otherwise lacks as any other girl his age squeal in admiration at the sight of Sasuke instead. She is THE Naruto fan girl where he otherwise wouldn't have had one. Sakura is Naruto's crush and I actually won't say for how long actually since canon source material did not actually specify how long he liked her (correct me if I'm wrong) and I wont' take any filler episodes into consideration. But she is one of the aforementioned fan girls of Sasuke that are crushing on his "cool and silent bad boy" attitude. Naruto winning her affections is a goal, but something changes along the way.

 

How do fans see Hinata and Sakura? Well let's delve into the most extreme opinions of them.

 

Hinata- she represents the shy girl that is too embarrassed to confess to her crush that many male and female fans alike sympathize with. In fact is is but stated by her fans' opinion that she is the nice girl next door who's hidden feelings for the main character are taken for granted and he only notices at the end and falls for her instead, they hope. You see this with all of the "she has always loved Naruto" arguments. Off topic but relevant, and this half belongs in the Sakura analysis of fan opinions, but I mentioned a while back that I'm sure deep down that many that are completely on the side of Naruto getting together with Hinata to the point the very notion of Sakura is a potential love interest offends them completely, act like that because the want Naruto to hurt Sakura back for daring not to IMMEDIATELY return his affections. What made me truly realize this factor is that I have been watching quite a lot of YouTube videos recently of animated and voiced over doujin manga, and a common theme among them is a guy getting rejected by a girlfriend and has a sweet understanding girl/lady comfort him and falls in love with her instead and when the ex-girlfriend comes back to beg/demand that the MC take her back, he tells her off and says he found a woman that loves him for who he is and loves back, so he doesn't need or want her anymore. I was thinking as I watched those, is this what Hinata fanatics and Sakura haters wanted to see as well? But anyway on to Sakura.

 

Sakura- As stated, you either love her or hate her. Neutral fans could go either way and I'm not delving into it. Sakura is Naruto's dream girl, in layman's terms. As stated as early as chapter /episode 3, Naruto has his eyes on her and is enamored with her. She's feisty, has quite a hidden temper and is not afraid to tell Naruto off, like a typical tsundere love interest. where this differs from others and where she gets all of her flak from I believe, is that again she does not immediately have a crush on Naruto back like other tsundere love interests so her behaviour becomes that much more grating to watch by her detractors. You see Sakura's character type all over the place in other weekly shonen jump series and beyond even, like Chichi, Kaoru, Keiko, etc. etc. even newer ones like Noelle Silva from Black Clover and none of them get the same amount of flak as Sakura does. what's the difference? They have had their love interests decided from the beginning, have no crush on any other guy, and have a sweet side that they show to their love interest on occasion. Sakura had/did none of those things early on and even if she did it was not directly to Naruto's face. In fact it was quite the opposite, where she unsympathetically says to Sasuke what she thinks of Naruto, that he is an irksome trouble maker because he has no parents to discipline him and thinks his flirting with her only gets in her way, not knowing the true depths of Naruto's loneliness that even Sasuke tells her off. She then thinks to herself maybe she should be nicer to Naruto, then goes right back to saying she hates him next chapter/ episode. I'm sure this is where the vast majority of her haters come from. and as I stated before perhaps those that take total offence to her initial attitude to Naruto probably want Naruto to get Hinata as the love interest instead to get emotional and relationship revenge on Sakura as she realizes she was maybe wrong about him.

 

I'll do their impact on the story in a separate post since I'm still gathering my thoughts on this but bear these thoughts in mind still since I'm sure it makes sense to me as it may do to many of you.

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 January 2022 - 02:41 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

i was't telling them how to feel. If you wish to continue talking about it, go for it. I'm just surprised there's still anything to talk about at this point is all. 

 

As long as Boruto keeps getting made, then the story will never end. 

One thing you can say is how much of Boruto is basically destroying the original ending and how Naruto has basically become a joke. 

Take example:
Have you noticed that when they discuss Naruto, noone really looks at Hokage Naruto or Boruto Naruto? They ONLY look at Shippuden Naruto. Is it because it is iconic...because they can't stand the new Hokage Naruto....both?
 

[tricksie]

i was't telling them how to feel. If you wish to continue talking about it, go for it. I'm just surprised there's still anything to talk about at this point is all. 

I'm still writing fics about NS....so I'm constantly thinking about these things. lol! I'm always glad to know that other NS shippers are still thinking about it too, even so many years later. 

 

 

As long as Boruto keeps getting made, then the story will never end. 

Yes - It's easy to forget that Boruto is still drawing new fans to Naruto all the time. And if they go back and read the Naruto manga.... Well, they better be ready to have everything they think they know about Naruto and Sakura thrown up in the air. Cause you can't read the manga and not come out knowing that Boruto's got the wrong ships going on - lol

[Luna]

https://twitter.com/...036033093783555

 

Suprised hinata getting a lot of hate and seeing other fans scrambling to defend her makes me laugh. I feel like Kishi did this scene intentionally because no matter how you spin it the words she said right after his death makes it extremely insensitive. 

[BlueStarSaber]

https://twitter.com/...m3hgceZZ0HrOrVA funny enough there were also arguments from sasuke and hinata fanboys with this tweet

[James S Cassidy]

Hey guys, so I got into a discussion about Naruto's ships and someone mentioned that Naruto and Hinata's relationship is at least a "heathy marriage."

This is my response see if you agree or if anything I should add

Umm...not sure how Naruto is in a healthy marriage when he is a workaholic, alcoholic, and refuses to spend time with family and even missing his own daughters birthday because "he is too busy." There is song about a cat and a silver spoon that talks about the dangers of this. It may not be abusive, but neglect can be just as harmful.

Just saying....not sure if people are reading the story or not, but their are marital problems Naruto faces that could be avoided just by following the 3 Cs of relationships: Communication, compassion, compromise. Why are people so confused by actually caring about the other person in a relationship? Listen, if you truly loved someone, you WILL go out of the way for them. There would be no excuses...just circumstances. Hinata tries to excuse the Naruto's bad behavior, not explaining the circumstance.

There is a difference between saying
"Daddy works really hard. You need to understand."
and
"Your dad is doing his best to be the best father he can while also being a good leader. We need to keep being supportive so he can continue to see how much he means to us."
(I am not sure if this example is very good. I am just trying to show the difference between a father who doesn't want to be home because it is stressful vs a father who wants to be home, but can't cause life is throwing hurdles he must overcome.)
 

Naruto and fans make excuses about Naruto not have having a dad so he doesn't know, but he had plenty of male influence in his life to at least understand a basic father role. It is not that he tries and fails, it is that he never tries in the first place....that is NOT healthy and I am tired of people saying it is. NH is NOT a healthy marriage....is it better than SS? Oh yeah, definitely, but that is not saying much. That's like saying being stabbed is worse than being shot....yeah in ways it is, but it still is painful and life threatening. People take a few "romantic" moments and say "this is healthy" while ignoring all the stuff in between those moments. I mean, ask yourself, do you really want a marriage like NH and SS? I have seen women push for divorce over less and cheated for far less reasons. (Men too, but statistically, women do it more often.) People say it is realistic to have issues in marriage, but it is also realistic for divorce to occur.


 

https://twitter.com/...036033093783555

 

Suprised hinata getting a lot of hate and seeing other fans scrambling to defend her makes me laugh. I feel like Kishi did this scene intentionally because no matter how you spin it the words she said right after his death makes it extremely insensitive. 

This is why I stopped arguing with these people now. There is nothing, but denial, denial, denial.
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 06 February 2022 - 05:59 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

Hey guys, so I got into a discussion about Naruto's ships and someone mentioned that Naruto and Hinata's relationship is at least a "heathy marriage."

This is my response see if you agree or if anything I should add

Umm...not sure how Naruto is in a healthy marriage when he is a workaholic, alcoholic, and refuses to spend time with family and even missing his own daughters birthday because "he is too busy." There is song about a cat and a silver spoon that talks about the dangers of this. It may not be abusive, but neglect can be just as harmful.

Just saying....not sure if people are reading the story or not, but their are marital problems Naruto faces that could be avoided just by following the 3 Cs of relationships: Communication, compassion, compromise. Why are people so confused by actually caring about the other person in a relationship? Listen, if you truly loved someone, you WILL go out of the way for them. There would be no excuses...just circumstances. Hinata tries to excuse the Naruto's bad behavior, not explaining the circumstance.

There is a difference between saying
"Daddy works really hard. You need to understand."
and
"Your dad is doing his best to be the best father he can while also being a good leader. We need to keep being supportive so he can continue to see how much he means to us."
(I am not sure if this example is very good. I am just trying to show the difference between a father who doesn't want to be home because it is stressful vs a father who wants to be home, but can't cause life is throwing hurdles he must overcome.)
 

Naruto and fans make excuses about Naruto not have having a dad so he doesn't know, but he had plenty of male influence in his life to at least understand a basic father role. It is not that he tries and fails, it is that he never tries in the first place....that is NOT healthy and I am tired of people saying it is. NH is NOT a healthy marriage....is it better than SS? Oh yeah, definitely, but that is not saying much. That's like saying being stabbed is worse than being shot....yeah in ways it is, but it still is painful and life threatening. People take a few "romantic" moments and say "this is healthy" while ignoring all the stuff in between those moments. I mean, ask yourself, do you really want a marriage like NH and SS? I have seen women push for divorce over less and cheated for far less reasons. (Men too, but statistically, women do it more often.) People say it is realistic to have issues in marriage, but it is also realistic for divorce to occur.


 

This is why I stopped arguing with these people now. There is nothing, but denial, denial, denial.
 

 

Heck, Naruto's first fight with Sasuke in the VotE had him imagining eating ramen with Iruka and asking himself if that's what it's like to have a father.

So once again, he DID know...but the powers that be gave him selective amnesia about it later on.

[James S Cassidy]

Heck, Naruto's first fight with Sasuke in the VotE had him imagining eating ramen with Iruka and asking himself if that's what it's like to have a father.

So once again, he DID know...but the powers that be gave him selective amnesia about it later on.

Exactly, it is just making excuses for bad behavior than showcasing how circumstance can stop us from doing or having what we want.

This is why NS is far healthier in that while problems can occur, in the end Naruto truly cared about Sakura and it was only a matter of circumstance that kept him from being with her. At least what the original story conveyed before they made it so Naruto is a scumbag who only manipulates people, but point still stands for Part 1.

[sushi.]

Healthy marriage or not dont apply too much rl logic to fiction.

It is easy to write it healthy and w/o conflict. Still came out of the blue. Bad writing

[Phantom_999]

 

Hey guys, so I got into a discussion about Naruto's ships and someone mentioned that Naruto and Hinata's relationship is at least a "heathy marriage."

This is my response see if you agree or if anything I should add

Umm...not sure how Naruto is in a healthy marriage when he is a workaholic, alcoholic, and refuses to spend time with family and even missing his own daughters birthday because "he is too busy." There is song about a cat and a silver spoon that talks about the dangers of this. It may not be abusive, but neglect can be just as harmful.

Just saying....not sure if people are reading the story or not, but their are marital problems Naruto faces that could be avoided just by following the 3 Cs of relationships: Communication, compassion, compromise. Why are people so confused by actually caring about the other person in a relationship? Listen, if you truly loved someone, you WILL go out of the way for them. There would be no excuses...just circumstances. Hinata tries to excuse the Naruto's bad behavior, not explaining the circumstance.

There is a difference between saying
"Daddy works really hard. You need to understand."
and
"Your dad is doing his best to be the best father he can while also being a good leader. We need to keep being supportive so he can continue to see how much he means to us."
(I am not sure if this example is very good. I am just trying to show the difference between a father who doesn't want to be home because it is stressful vs a father who wants to be home, but can't cause life is throwing hurdles he must overcome.)
 

Naruto and fans make excuses about Naruto not have having a dad so he doesn't know, but he had plenty of male influence in his life to at least understand a basic father role. It is not that he tries and fails, it is that he never tries in the first place....that is NOT healthy and I am tired of people saying it is. NH is NOT a healthy marriage....is it better than SS? Oh yeah, definitely, but that is not saying much. That's like saying being stabbed is worse than being shot....yeah in ways it is, but it still is painful and life threatening. People take a few "romantic" moments and say "this is healthy" while ignoring all the stuff in between those moments. I mean, ask yourself, do you really want a marriage like NH and SS? I have seen women push for divorce over less and cheated for far less reasons. (Men too, but statistically, women do it more often.) People say it is realistic to have issues in marriage, but it is also realistic for divorce to occur.


 

This is why I stopped arguing with these people now. There is nothing, but denial, denial, denial.
 

 

 

lol Healthy is it? That assumption is from the lack of conflict. As stated already there is no communication, no compromise, nor caring. all three are void or are one-sided. Hinata makes lunches for Naruto which he doesn't accept, gives affection as a wife which he no longer reciprocates after the kids were born, looks after the family home and raises the kids with him being being absent 99% of the time or sends in a clone to see his family while he does his office work rather than the other way around. He doesn't even spend time with Hinata anymore and the arguments for why she was the perfect wife for him was her rocking rack and devotes her whole being completely to him, which he is completely taking for granted now and for the longest time. Again she makes excuses for him saying he has a stressful work life and was an orphan instead of confronting the problem like an actual healthy marriage does. I don't know what this person qualifies as a happy healthy marriage, but this doesn't seem like it to me either. 

 

Healthy marriage or not dont apply too much rl logic to fiction.

It is easy to write it healthy and w/o conflict. Still came out of the blue. Bad writing

 

Lack of a conflict is a trap to a happy healthy marriage in all honesty. It means you are keeping things from each other or are just smiling and bottling up your problems. I heard that this is what partly leads to divorces in real life. Marriage for love means even having the occasional fights showing that you completely open up to each other and grow together, not to mention stay together despite it.

 

Even taking into consideration that it is a fictional couple do you see yourself in a relationship like NaruHina, where the husband dumps all of the house work and child rearing on you and is almost never never home only coming back for a change of clothes and leaves again? That's certainly not romantic even in fiction, That is just depressing. What does this remind me of? A loveless arranged marriage

Edited by Phantom_999, 23 March 2022 - 06:55 PM.

[Illnevergiveup3]

https://twitter.com/...036033093783555
 
Suprised hinata getting a lot of hate and seeing other fans scrambling to defend her makes me laugh. I feel like Kishi did this scene intentionally because no matter how you spin it the words she said right after his death makes it extremely insensitive. 

😂😂😂 the excuses given as to why she said it was easily the best part.

iT wAs A tHrOwBaCk tO kArInS sTaTeMeNt aBoUt nArUtoS wArM ChAkRa AnD hOw iT kEePs hEr fEeLiNg sAfE.

what???

[Phantom_999]

I'm just laughing at the fact that many of them are just repeating WHAT WE SAID. Members of this website called out and knew the bs writing of Hinata as a character and love interest before it was cool! lol

BTW Do they know Neji's death was supposed to play as cupid for Naruto and Hinata, I wonder?

 

"I've said it once, I've said it twice, I'll it say as I eat my soup and rice." If they love this canon couple (NaruHina) so much, they can have it. It doesn't affect me anymore, regardless of whether they see the B#!! S*!% beneath the surface now

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 February 2022 - 05:14 PM.

[Luna]

BTW Do they know Neji's death was supposed to play as cupid for Naruto and Hinata, I wonder?

 

 

 

They do know. A lot of them hate her and kishimoto for it. They gave hinata all this only for her to be STILL uninteresting and barely get screen time. 

[Phantom_999]

   

[James S Cassidy]

 

lol Healthy is it? That assumption is from the lack of conflict. As stated already there is no communication, no compromise, nor caring. all three are void or are one-sided. Hinata makes lunches for Naruto which he doesn't accept, gives affection as a wife which he no longer reciprocates after the kids were born, looks after the family home and raises the kids with him being being absent 99% of the time or sends in a clone see his family while he does his office work rather than the other way around. He doesn't even spend time with Hinata anymore and the arguments for why she was the perfect wife for him was her rocking rack and devotes her whole being completely to him to him, which he is completely taking for granted now and for the longest time. Again she makes excuses for him saying he has a stressful work life and was an orphan instead of confronting the problem like an actual healthy marriage does. I don't know what this person qualifies as a happy healthy marriage, but this doesn't seem like it to me either. 

 

 

Lack of a conflict is a trap to a happy healthy marriage in all honesty. It means you are keeping things from each other or are just smiling and bottling up your problems. I heard that this is what partly leads to divorces in real life. Marriage for love means even having the occasional fights showing that you completely open up to each other and grow together, not to mention stay together despite it.

 

Even taking into consideration that it is a fictional couple do you see yourself in a relationship like NaruHina, where the husband dumps all of the house work and child rearing on you and is almost never never home only coming back for a change of clothes and leaves again? That's certainly not romantic even in fiction, That is just depressing. What does this remind me of? A loveless arranged marriage

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

[Bail o' Lies]

I'm still writing fics about NS....so I'm constantly thinking about these things. lol! I'm always glad to know that other NS shippers are still thinking about it too, even so many years later. 

 

Yes - It's easy to forget that Boruto is still drawing new fans to Naruto all the time. And if they go back and read the Naruto manga.... Well, they better be ready to have everything they think they know about Naruto and Sakura thrown up in the air. Cause you can't read the manga and not come out knowing that Boruto's got the wrong ships going on - lol

I doubt they are thinking that NS should have happened. But they are thinking, "god, how does Boruto never seem to go anywhere or do anything compared to his old man?"

 

https://twitter.com/...m3hgceZZ0HrOrVA funny enough there were also arguments from sasuke and hinata fanboys with this tweet

Her not caring about Sasuke always seems to me more how uninvolved she was in the situation. Again, remember when Sasuke makes that desire to become Hokage during the war the rest of her classmates where there and had a reaction she didn't. Same with those two meeting during the summit of her friends where they are talking about Sasuke finally having a bounty put on his head; barely says anything beyond asking about how Naruto and Sakura will react to this.

 

She is so uninvolved in something her 'love' was invested in for over three years to the point she really doesn't even have an opinion. 

 

This is why I stopped arguing with these people now. There is nothing, but denial, denial, denial.

You've learned! You've finally learned!

 

As for the healthy marriage...have they seen Boruto? 

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 24 February 2022 - 02:17 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

They do know. A lot of them hate her and kishimoto for it. They gave hinata all this only for her to be STILL uninteresting and barely get screen time. 

 

And to still be super insignificant to the plot like she ALWAYS WAS.

[Nostradamus]

I guess those are both fair points. 

I want to say something. I'm sure you didn't think this, but just in case my comment wasn't some sort of an insult towards you or anyone.

I read what I said above about some people stagnating, if you or anyone took that as an insult sorry that was not my intention.

Again I'm sure none of you did, but I've encountered some people who think everyone is out to get them and they see everything as an insult. Those people have problems.

 

Anyway here's one of the problems that irritate me about Naruto that I thought about it recently. About how unique and special he is.

Or to be more precise about how he really isn't. Everything that he manages to achieve where others failed are just turned into nothing in the war arc.

For example we learned that Jiraiya couldn't master Sage Mode, he needed the two frogs in order to enter that stage and even with them the transformation wasn't perfect. Naruto manages to achieve it through hard training, then the war starts.

And we get to see Minato using Sage Mode without help like it was nothing. Yeah he said it wasn't perfect, but still Naruto went through all that and Minato just has it. Then Hashirama's sage mode is revealed. Turns out Hashirama's mode is even greater than Naruto's. So much for the next generation surpassing the old one theme/saying.

 

Or mastering the Kyuubi's chakra. Naruto had to face The Evil Within himself , fight the Kyuubi, lose control because the Kyuubi's hatred was stronger than his own, have his mom's chakra help him defeat the Kyuubi then got control over it.

Then Minato arrives and starts instantly using the Kyuubi's chakra like it's second nature to him. And also transforms into the Kyuubi form. Granted yes, you can say well the other half of Kurama allowed him because it sensed Naruto's friendship with his other half or some other excuse, but come on.

 

But none is a bigger offender than this. Naruto meeting the Rikudo Sennin. We get to see the Sage of Six paths, the creator of the system, the guy who defeated the Juubi have a one on one conversation with Naruto where he tells Naruto he is the chosen one.

The one that will save all of mankind. Bring balance to the force not leave it in darkness, oops wrong movie. And the Sage gives him a power-up.

And then we see Sasuke was having also at the same time a conversation with the Sage. Where he also gets a power-up after telling the Sage that he wants to kill Naruto. I'm getting a feeling that maybe the conflict that started between Ashura and Indra wasn't their fault. Call me crazy, but I have this strange feeling that someone was trying to push them into a certain direction. And that someone continued throughout the years to push for this.

 

God I hated that moment so much when I saw it. It just pissed all over Naruto. I swear the war arc is like a pissing contest. Let's see who can piss on Naruto the most.

No wonder so many people thought that Sasuke was The Main character. I don't know if Kishi just got tired of writing and wanted to be done with it, but when you look at it, he didn't have any interest in Naruto as the character anymore. And this was even before getting close to the end of the manga.

It looks like he wanted to be done with it.

[tricksie]

 

No wonder so many people thought that Sasuke was The Main character. I don't know if Kishi just got tired of writing and wanted to be done with it, but when you look at it, he didn't have any interest in Naruto as the character anymore. And this was even before getting close to the end of the manga.

It looks like he wanted to be done with it.

Honestly, I do think Kishimoto fell 'out of love' with his main character and was more inspired by writing for his morally grey anti-hero.

 

It totally happens. Authors botch their own stories all the time. Especially in a series. They lose the thread of where they were going, get bored, then start writing towards a different ending than the one they started out with. 

 

You can tell it happened in Naruto because there were no more true story arcs after a point in time. Just conflict and resolution.

 

And the final bit of damning evidence? That the ending of the whole Naruto manga was from Sasuke's point of view. The one character who spent the entire time trying to get away from Naruto. He has nothing to contribute, because he had nothing to do with their stories. At all. 

 

But in Kishimoto's head, Sasuke is the hero. So why hear from Naruto about what happened in his life?

 

If Kishi wanted a neutral narrator, Kakashi would have been the best choice.

 

Imagine if the Harry Potter series turned into Draco's power ups and backstories about the whole Malfoy family, then Voldemort turns out to be just another ancient Malfoy....and then finally after the Battle of Hogwarts and the series has come to a close, the epilogue was told from Draco's point of view? For no other reason than the author just wanted a little more Draco Malfoy before it ended?

 

That's what happened in Naruto. And when you apply the same scenario to any other story or movie, it becomes crystal clear that the creator fell out of love with his hero and sold out his original story. 

[Nostradamus]

That's what happened in Naruto. And when you apply the same scenario to any other story or movie, it becomes crystal clear that the creator fell out of love with his hero and sold out his original story. 

Sometimes I wonder is that what really happened where he just fell out of love with his hero, or was he never that much interested in his hero to begin with?

I don't know, but when I think back to early Naruto, I feel like in certain moments it's more about someone else than him. Or about something else. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but right now I recall more focus and more detailed put into other characters, their backstory, their desires, their growth. And I can't say it turned into Sasuke's story. More like the Uchiha story. I feel like both Naruto and Sasuke were just spectators and not participants to the Uchiha storyline. They just happen to be the end of it. More like conduits.

Sorry, I'm not finding my words right now, but I hope you at least get a little bit of what I'm trying to say. Or maybe I'm just talking nonsense, could be.

When I can I'll try to explain it more in detail what I mean. Now I have other things on my mind.