54175 replies to this topic

[Moon_Girl]

His original editor was carrying a good chunk of the story as well. Once he left, the storyline had a noticeable decline and Hinatatas started coming more and more into the spotlight. (He left shortly before the Pain arc iirc)
It wouldn't be so farfetched to say that it's possible that his original editor was Kishimoto's 'guts'. He was there for the Sakura vs Sasori fight. He was there when Sakura didn't have even the slightest hint of feelings for Sasuke. He was there was NaruSaku started to bloom. He was there when the story was good. He was there when Hinatata was as important as Tenten and remained as a comedic trope in the background where she truly belongs and was always meant to be.

Edited by Moon_Girl, 17 April 2021 - 07:03 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

 

I feel if Kishimoto wanted to redo the Naruto ending what he originally wanted, instead of doing a full on reboot it might be better if he did something like what Shaman King did with the Shaman King Kang Zeng Bang edition. In where the mangaka edited and added parts to the series he couldn't do in the original run of the series.

Yeah but Kishi would need guts for that and he doesn't have it.

Kishimoto would only be allowed to do a edit once Boruto is over. Since he's not allowed to screw over Boruto. Which will take years no matter what. Even after that time if he could convince them to go with his edits he would need to convince them there is profit in it and the will to see it through.

 

His original editor was carrying a good chunk of the story as well. Once he left, the storyline had a noticeable decline and Hinatatas started coming more and more into the spotlight. (He left shortly before the Pain arc iirc)
It wouldn't be so farfetched to say that it's possible that his original editor was Kishimoto's 'guts'. He was there for the Sakura vs Sasori fight. He was there when Sakura didn't have even the slightest hint of feelings for Sasuke. He was there was NaruSaku started to bloom. He was there when the story was good. He was there when Hinatata was as important as Tenten and remained as a comedic trope in the background where she truly belongs and was always meant to be.

Yahagi was not perfect and brought some problems into the story. 

 

Though real problem was when he left the new guy was a nH fan who wanted Hinata to replace Sakura and got a scene in that really ignited the stupid pairing conflict.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 17 April 2021 - 12:02 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Well This might be just me, but I feel Hinata's overselling is played off as worse than it actually is. What I mean is that even in the later parts of the story for all 700 chapters Hinata STILL had little to no impact  to Naruto on a personal level and definitely wasn't driving the story forward. Naruto just married her without any closure with Sakura and properly moving on from his own feelings and the reason he married Hinata is the most cringing garbage shojo clichè movie that had no business being put in the story, and as a side effect just nuked all messages and meaning to the story JUST SO Naruto realized Hinata is his "one and only". My point is that for all the Hinata wanking behind the scenes, she actually wasn't the problem until Kishi caved in to said wanking and blindly believing it's what the fans wanted. I'm just being objective about this because the way I see it she still had no impact on the story all the way until the end and she still has no impact now despite being Naruto "submissive  housewife" like the so-called "true fans" wanted for him. Sure, I was as upset as anyone else here when those NH moments happen, but it wasn't because I saw it as a threat. I just KNOW HOW OBNOCXIOUS her fappers and hierophants are, and those moments were just giving them ammunition.

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 April 2021 - 11:53 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Okay, so many are always saying Kishi doing a Naruto reboot will help fix many things and give us the ending we all should have gotten back in 2014. However, there is a problem with doing this reboot, and that's the NaruHina fans will say Kishi is only doing it because the NaruSaku fans kept kittening on Kishi. Or we gave him too much pressure that he was forced to do this reboot to make us salty fans happy.

 

I mean, for a reboot to work, both NaruHina and SasuSaku need destroying badly enough that the fans who keep on thinking that this was planned that we are just salty we didn't get our ending. See that Kishi was wrong and that NH and SS were forced and shouldn't have happened.

 

Again there are so many things that need to happen before a reboot can happen; Hinata fans are the big ones that need dealing with; for as long as we have them around, they will keep saying they won, Hinata needs to be destroyed completely before the reboot could happen.

 

We can do it many ways, 1 is to have so many, and I mean so many children die because of her, because she thought, thought Naruto was in danger, but he wasn't. Have it, so Sakura is missing an arm and is now blind in one eye from saving 50 children, while Hinata was knocked out cold.

 

I mean, there are so many other ways, but the point still stands we need to destroy Hinata before doing a reboot.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Guys....

[Bail o' Lies]

Well, this might be just me, but I feel Hinata's overselling is played off as worse than it actually is. What I mean is that even in the later parts of the story for all 700 chapters Hinata STILL had little to no impact  to Naruto on a personal level and definitely wasn't driving the story forward. Naruto just married her without any closure with Sakura and properly moving on from his own feelings and the reason he married Hinata is the most cringing garbage shojo clichè movie that had no business being put in the story, and as a side effect just nuked all messages and meaning to the story JUST SO Naruto realized Hinata is his "one and only".

 

My point is that for all the Hinata wanking behind the scenes, she actually wasn't the problem until Kishi caved in to said wanking and blindly believing it's what the fans wanted. I'm just being objective about this because the way I see it she still had no impact on the story all the way until the end and she still has no impact now despite being Naruto "submissive  housewife" like the so-called "true fans" wanted for him. Sure, I was as upset as anyone else here when those NH moments happen, but it wasn't because I saw it as a threat. I just KNOW HOW OBNOCXIOUS her fappers and hierophants are, and those moments were just giving them ammunition.

No no that is the problem with Hinata. If she was just Naruto's wife the problem isn't as big. But because they believe she was so beloved they made her the core of Naruto after it ended and it damaged the series.

 

If you look at the manga alone. It honestly feels like it was cancelled and the writer is trying to wrap up the story as fast as possible without actually resolving anything. In it, Naruto getting together with Hinata comes off more as Honoring Neji's Sacrifice instead of Loving Hinata. In other words, A soldier marrying the widow of a comrade to take care of her to honor that comrade for sacrificing his life to save him. The movie made her the Princess-Goddess of the Moon that is the only person that Naruto ever truly loved, and the story afterwards being Naruto abandoning working towards becoming hokage to changed the ninja system to just getting with Hinata. Which makes the entire story a waste of time just like AoT did with its ending this month.

 

Kishi didn't really do anything that damaging with her...other then doing scenes with her that helped push nH. It was SP/WSJ that did the damage to the series.

 

Okay, so many are always saying Kishi doing a Naruto reboot will help fix many things and give us the ending we all should have gotten back in 2014. However, there is a problem with doing this reboot, and that's the NaruHina fans will say Kishi is only doing it because the NaruSaku fans kept kittening on Kishi. Or we gave him too much pressure that he was forced to do this reboot to make us salty fans happy.

 

I mean, for a reboot to work, both NaruHina and SasuSaku need destroying badly enough that the fans who keep on thinking that this was planned that we are just salty we didn't get our ending. See that Kishi was wrong and that NH and SS were forced and shouldn't have happened.

 

Again there are so many things that need to happen before a reboot can happen; Hinata fans are the big ones that need dealing with; for as long as we have them around, they will keep saying they won, Hinata needs to be destroyed completely before the reboot could happen.

It really doesn't matter what nH think if it happens because a NS reboot happening is proof that their pairing was unprofitable and they were only continuing going through with it due to corporate inertia.

 

A NS reboot happening is down to unlikely chance.

 

Hinata fans are irrelevant if the NS reboot happening because it the companies admitting that they aren't worth much.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 18 April 2021 - 02:02 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Okay, so many are always saying Kishi doing a Naruto reboot will help fix many things and give us the ending we all should have gotten back in 2014. However, there is a problem with doing this reboot, and that's the NaruHina fans will say Kishi is only doing it because the NaruSaku fans kept kittening on Kishi. Or we gave him too much pressure that he was forced to do this reboot to make us salty fans happy.

 

I mean, for a reboot to work, both NaruHina and SasuSaku need destroying badly enough that the fans who keep on thinking that this was planned that we are just salty we didn't get our ending. See that Kishi was wrong and that NH and SS were forced and shouldn't have happened.

 

Again there are so many things that need to happen before a reboot can happen; Hinata fans are the big ones that need dealing with; for as long as we have them around, they will keep saying they won, Hinata needs to be destroyed completely before the reboot could happen.

 

We can do it many ways, 1 is to have so many, and I mean so many children die because of her, because she thought, thought Naruto was in danger, but he wasn't. Have it, so Sakura is missing an arm and is now blind in one eye from saving 50 children, while Hinata was knocked out cold.

 

I mean, there are so many other ways, but the point still stands we need to destroy Hinata before doing a reboot.

 

I feel that that would happen regardless so unless Hinata doesn't even exist as a character, anything will trigger them to think that a reboot or alternate ending is pandering to "salty NS fans". If he wants to do it, I say just do it because listening to NH fans and those like-minded authorities  is why his career is in the gutter right now. Not to mention unless his writing is on point and he recaptures the magic the series USED TO HAVE and more even, I personally am not bothering. I've said this before, I was a fan of the story before I was a NaruSaku fan. I personally wouldn't throw my money back on Kish or those incompetent Studio Pierrot hacks that ruined this entire franchise unless they give me reason to think that any reboot is actually worth my time since they've wasted at least 10-11 years of it.

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 April 2021 - 07:52 AM.

[Namaenash]

For Kishimoto, I don't think he cares.

He already had enough fortune he made before Naruto ending. I think by now he learnt that what he did with Naruto ending has made him lost his loyal readers / supporters, so much so that his new manga barely made 10k copies sold in its first week, despite the heavy marketing. Naruto's ending feels like you were cheated and lied to the whole time.

It's as good as him starting fresh from the start. No amount of reboot will be able to save Naruto franchise.

And I beg to differ comparing Naruto ending with Attack on Titan ending. Naruto's ending was the worst that it killed the franchise instantly and its author's career. Lots of backlash from Japanese readers and you can see it directly hit the sales and Kishimoto's next manga (Samurai 8).

Naruto was trying to appease readers outside of its home country, while sacrificing its loyal readers back in its home country.

AoT ending was good in my opinion. If you feel depressed and feel like getting punched in the gut, then the author did his job well. We're talking about a series directed to teenage and adults with a very dark theme. This series is not for weak heart. There's a lot of praise in the home country with the ending and that's truly is what matters for the producers.

Sorry to say, but Japanese manga industry, its merchandise and all extended channels are majority driven by sales in Japan. Roughly 80-85% of it. The rest 15-20% is all other countries in the world combined.

There will never be ending that makes everyone satisfied. But if an author had to choose, he/she better stick to his/her loyal customer.

Edited by Namaenash, 18 April 2021 - 02:44 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Well I can't debate AoT's ending since I do not read or watch it. But if you ask me though there seems to be certain expectations to how things end when they end with any type of fiction really and how things end are usually divisive to say the least. After Naruto, I've learned to not expect anything. lol But on a more serious note I've looked back on manga/anime that were very dear to me and while I was satisfied and enjoyed all of them they weren't as grand and climaxing as endings as I expected. This is just my opinion of course but while I loved the endings of those manga such as Dragon Ball, Rurouni Kenshin, and of course Fullmetal Alchemist, among others as well, I realized that I personally thought more could have been done with the endings but I did not feel unsatisfied with them either. But again this is just me as an individual. 

 

And yeah I understand that manga and anime will cater to Japanese consumers first and foremost, and international fans are extra at best, just like how American comics, cartoons and movies cater to Americans and so on. That is just the reality of fictional media business

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 April 2021 - 07:22 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

For Kishimoto, I don't think he cares.

He already had enough fortune he made before Naruto ending. I think by now he learnt that what he did with Naruto ending has made him lost his loyal readers / supporters, so much so that his new manga barely made 10k copies sold in its first week, despite the heavy marketing. Naruto's ending feels like you were cheated and lied to the whole time.

It's as good as him starting fresh from the start. No amount of reboot will be able to save Naruto franchise.

And I beg to differ comparing Naruto ending with Attack on Titan ending. Naruto's ending was the worst that it killed the franchise instantly and its author's career. Lots of backlash from Japanese readers and you can see it directly hit the sales and Kishimoto's next manga (Samurai 8).

Naruto was trying to appease readers outside of its home country, while sacrificing its loyal readers back in its home country.

AoT ending was good in my opinion. If you feel depressed and feel like getting punched in the gut, then the author did his job well. We're talking about a series directed to teenage and adults with a very dark theme. This series is not for weak heart. There's a lot of praise in the home country with the ending and that's truly is what matters for the producers.

Sorry to say, but Japanese manga industry, its merchandise and all extended channels are majority driven by sales in Japan. Roughly 80-85% of it. The rest 15-20% is all other countries in the world combined.

There will never be ending that makes everyone satisfied. But if an author had to choose, he/she better stick to his/her loyal customer.

You seem to be forgetting that Samurai 8 is in the past now. It is no longer his new manga, but his old failed second attempt at a manga. He is now stuck working on Boruto; trying to make that stay afloat. Last month he reintroduced the pairing conflict. This month its likely training arcs. So he is paying for the ending in a new way now. 

 

As for the international targeting nonsense it made sense to the executives at the time. Naruto was their big international money maker they wanted to focus on that audience because Naruto was one of the few ongoing manga that had any pull overseas. The problem came in two fold. One, they accidentally chased a phantom audience of pirates. Two, in a few short years because of the increase popularity of streaming, among other things, Japanese anime had a resurgence and became more successful than every before internationally. Making the entire venture pointless and probably lost them money in the long run; besides pissing off the Japanese fanbase.

 

As for AoT I mention it because it happened this month and people are complaining about it. I will say this though. If it does turn out the have a backlash like Naruto did at least the mangaka was smart enough to no longer be a mangaka. He used the money he made from his manga to open up a spa resort.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 19 April 2021 - 05:07 AM.

[BlueStarSaber]

I hear the attack on titan mangaka said he was planning a dark comedy manga series at one point after attack on titan ends

[Namaenash]

Yes, spot on with the turn of events in anime. Wrongly chasing the audience segment and the rise of streaming platforms. These has made the whole venture of killing NS and making NH/SS for Boruto to be born pointless for Naruto franchise.

Simply put, in hindsight it was a bad business decision. If the producer stay on their course and try not to re-invent the series, they wouldn't lost 90% of their manga sales.

There's no urgency to reinvent Naruto franchise. They can always expand the lore instead of killing the main theme and replacing the main characters with their children.

As for AoT and Hajime Isayama, the dude is chill. He'll be doing fine :) You can look at his blog http://blog.livedoor.jp/isayamahazime/ , he indeed mention something about building a spa (onsen), which I lol-ed at. Good market for the depressed people reading AoT. lol.

He took the whole of his crew to vacation, a 22 large family unit, without missing deadlines. There was never a pause in AoT overall one+ decade runs. He went to all of AoT publication and exhibition events (one that I enjoyed reading here https://www.bloomber...-next-manga-hit) -> one such event typically generates $2.5 million ticket sales, and he's been humble enough to never turn his back.

In short, Isayama cares.

And the rise of anime on streaming platforms worldwide was not attributed to franchise like One Piece, Dragon Ball or Naruto. It's attributed to Attack on Titan. AoT managed to draw 1.5 million viewers although given midnight slot back in 2014. That's massive for a non-US show. It's on similar scale as Family Guy.

If anyone is in trouble after AoT ends, it's the publisher (Kodansha) who needs to find replacement.

Isayama worth about $50 million, with 30-ish AoT volumes. Kishi worth about $25 million with 70-ish Naruto volumes and he need to drag his arse back to work on Boruto.

Both of them can retire and still have enough money for their children.

Edited by Namaenash, 19 April 2021 - 12:47 AM.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

I'm thinking about making a Kingdom Hearts podcast. Would anyone like to join me?

[Bail o' Lies]

Yes, spot on with the turn of events in anime. Wrongly chasing the audience segment and the rise of streaming platforms. These has made the whole venture of killing NS and making NH/SS for Boruto to be born pointless for Naruto franchise.

Simply put, in hindsight it was a bad business decision. If the producer stay on their course and try not to re-invent the series, they wouldn't lost 90% of their manga sales.

There's no urgency to reinvent Naruto franchise. They can always expand the lore instead of killing the main theme and replacing the main characters with their children.

As for AoT and Hajime Isayama, the dude is chill. He'll be doing fine :) You can look at his blog http://blog.livedoor.jp/isayamahazime/ , he indeed mention something about building a spa (onsen), which I lol-ed at. Good market for the depressed people reading AoT. lol.

He took the whole of his crew to vacation, a 22 large family unit, without missing deadlines. There was never a pause in AoT overall one+ decade runs. He went to all of AoT publication and exhibition events (one that I enjoyed reading here https://www.bloomber...-next-manga-hit) -> one such event typically generates $2.5 million ticket sales, and he's been humble enough to never turn his back.

In short, Isayama cares.

And the rise of anime on streaming platforms worldwide was not attributed to franchise like One Piece, Dragon Ball or Naruto. It's attributed to Attack on Titan. AoT managed to draw 1.5 million viewers although given midnight slot back in 2014. That's massive for a non-US show. It's on similar scale as Family Guy.

If anyone is in trouble after AoT ends, it's the publisher (Kodansha) who needs to find replacement.

Isayama worth about $50 million, with 30-ish AoT volumes. Kishi worth about $25 million with 70-ish Naruto volumes and he need to drag his arse back to work on Boruto.

Both of them can retire and still have enough money for their children.

For the AoT, you seem to like the story and personally like the mangaka. The way I see it is the reaction to the ending is at the moment up in the air. You could be part of either that 90% that liked it or 10% that liked it.

 

Honestly it might be good to compare and contrast Naruto/Boruto and AoT:

AoT was the face as well as the vanguard of the resurgence of anime internationally due to streaming. Naruto was the face of the the last redoubts of international interest in anime during 2007-2014 and had a lot of piracy.

AoT was a monthly manga that allowed time for relaxation as well as going to fan events between chapter due dates. Naruto was a weekly manga the made Kishimoto work almost non-stop without any breaks for 15 years.

AoT had a seasonal anime that focused on adapting the manga's story with high quality. Naruto-Boruto has a continuous anime that has become infamous for endless filler arcs to the point of scaring away potential customers.

Isayama used his money to make an onsen so he doesn't have to be a mangaka anymore after the ending; whatever the outcome. Kishimoto remained a mangaka without diversifying, so he was dragged back to work on the sequel due to it and his second manga failing.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 19 April 2021 - 11:33 AM.

[tricksie]

For Kishimoto, I don't think he cares.

He already had enough fortune he made before Naruto ending. I think by now he learnt that what he did with Naruto ending has made him lost his loyal readers / supporters, so much so that his new manga barely made 10k copies sold in its first week, despite the heavy marketing. Naruto's ending feels like you were cheated and lied to the whole time.

It's as good as him starting fresh from the start. No amount of reboot will be able to save Naruto franchise.

 

yes, yes, yes - my thoughts exactly. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 
yes, yes, yes - my thoughts exactly. 

Same here. The mess is made and cannot be unmade

[catsi563]

Honestly I think he gave up on Naruto when editorial interference pushed Hinata into prominence and derailed what story he was writing. I think thats where his infamous Hinata Hinata hinata thing came from, not just a jab at her fandom but at the editors and staff who were basically shoving a minor side character down his throat, So he essentally threw his hands in the air and said whatevs and just wrote what ended up being the ending

[Bail o' Lies]

Honestly I think he gave up on Naruto when editorial interference pushed Hinata into prominence and derailed what story he was writing. I think thats where his infamous Hinata Hinata hinata thing came from, not just a jab at her fandom but at the editors and staff who were basically shoving a minor side character down his throat, So he essentally threw his hands in the air and said whatevs and just wrote what ended up being the ending

I think the Hinata Hinata Hinata was him becoming frustrated with his editors while he was still trying to write the story the best he can. Then during the years writing war arc the wore him down till he just wanted it done. He father's passing and reaching 40 being sort of the final pushes.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Then why not just kill Hinata off? Boom then they would have shut up going on about her so much, hell if I could go back in time thats what I would tell a much younger Kishi to do.

[Derock]

Then why not just kill Hinata off? Boom then they would have shut up going on about her so much, hell if I could go back in time thats what I would tell a much younger Kishi to do.

 

I said the exact same thing. He should had ignore those crazy editors by growing a backbone and kill her off. Then that movie wouldn't even exist and the franchise could've been okay.