54175 replies to this topic

[TheFirstEvil100]

Its like Naruto trying to Talk no jutsu Sauron it wouldnt work at all the worst thing I see happening is Sauron bends Naruto to his will.

Still a better ending than what we got.

[Bail o' Lies]

As for the Sasuke part...well, I think you need to go back farther and the main cause of why everything happened the way it did in the first place.

Honestly, I think Pain needed to say "That's not a plan, that is a goal" kind of inference indicating that wanting to achieve takes more than just wanting it to occur. You want change? You have to be the change.

Nagato was a bitter nihilist because of his best friend's death. Naruto awakened his old-self by reminding him of Jiraiya's faith in him and at least promising to try to end the cycle of hatred.

 

I don't mind the cycle of hatred during the Pein arc as it was just introduced and Minato points out was a part of the current ninja system; a system Naruto already wants to change when he became hokage.

 

The cycle of hatred became a problem almost immediately after the Pein arc because it became merely the permeant excuse to chase after Sasuke.

 

The problem with the final battle is that of the simplest of storytelling elements; a hero's counter to their antagonist. Sasuke had a plan, and Naruto didn't seem to have one. Its the same problem as in the Last Jedi. Both Luke the cynical mentor that Rey in-theory restores hope in and the big bad Kylo believe that you should completely destroy the past, which means Rey should be against that...how in the movie is she against that? How did she send any message that she was against that and her stance on the issue to the audience? Because fans of the movie embrace wholeheartedly the antagonist's stance. From what I recall, like Naruto, Rey didn't have a stance/answer. And yes, I count following Jiraiya's teaching and at least trying to find peace good enough for the Pein arc.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 16 July 2022 - 11:24 AM.

[VanitasDS76491]

Its like Naruto trying to Talk no jutsu Sauron it wouldnt work at all the worst thing I see happening is Sauron bends Naruto to his will.

Still a better ending than what we got.

same  til the rings of power probably ruin sauron. 

would naruto become a black rider 

[TheFirstEvil100]

same  til the rings of power probably ruin sauron. 
would naruto become a black rider 

Oh they will ruin him big time but the true fans of Tolkiens work have spoken.

Hmm maybe.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Oh they will ruin him big time but the true fans of Tolkiens work have spoken.

Considering what I have heard so far, I know what you mean, and shows that these creators out there trying to be different and inclusive but they just want to crap on the works of others to lift themselves up.

[James S Cassidy]

same  til the rings of power probably ruin sauron. 

would naruto become a black rider 

 Seems Rings of Power is already ruined...no Naruto needed. 

Although that is an interesting topic, how would anime characters do in other universes. 

Would Goku just massacre all of Star Wars universe or just be brought down? Force Mind trick might ruin Goku's day.
Would Naruto survive in the LotR universe?
How would Luffy fair in say Pirates of the Carribean?

I wonder how many universes Saitama would just wreck with one punch? 

[TheFirstEvil100]

Considering what I have heard so far, I know what you mean, and shows that these creators out there trying to be different and inclusive but they just want to crap on the works of others to lift themselves up.

Yeah it is so bad, which has made so many angry.

 

 Seems Rings of Power is already ruined...no Naruto needed. 

Although that is an interesting topic, how would anime characters do in other universes. 

Would Goku just massacre all of Star Wars universe or just be brought down? Force Mind trick might ruin Goku's day.
Would Naruto survive in the LotR universe?
How would Luffy fair in say Pirates of the Carribean?

I wonder how many universes Saitama would just wreck with one punch? 

It's why James many fans are fighting this calling it our for what it is a piece of kitten.

 

Goku yeah a sith and Jedi could do that to Goku.

 

Naruto would die, James, he would try to beat someone like Morgoth and would die a painful death same with Sauron who would trick Naruto into attacking the Valar.

 

Luffy is hard to tell,

 

Saitama I would just dump him to see Popeye again or Superman, Or my little Poney.

Edited by TheFirstEvil100, 19 July 2022 - 10:12 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

 Seems Rings of Power is already ruined...no Naruto needed. 

Although that is an interesting topic, how would anime characters do in other universes. 

Would Goku just massacre all of Star Wars universe or just be brought down? Force Mind trick might ruin Goku's day.
Would Naruto survive in the LotR universe?
How would Luffy fair in say Pirates of the Carribean?

I wonder how many universes Saitama would just wreck with one punch? 

pretty sure luffy can survive the pirates of the carribean gave his world is way more dangerous than that one look at eneru or cp9

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

pretty sure luffy can survive the pirates of the carribean gave his world is way more dangerous than that one look at eneru or cp9

Yep, that's for sure!

[VanitasDS76491]

Yep, that's for sure!

go further into the story with doflamigo big mom and kaido to i think luffy owns the pirates of the carribean world even that davy jones would be scared of luffy

[Phantom_999]

Let's be real here, the concept of evil is the idea that you hold a person accountable for their actions in the Narutoverse. The moment you believe they deserve punishment for their wrongdoings, then you are evil and need to be stopped. 

I guess you could say that killing the innocent is evil, but they have this idea of guilty because you support a corrupt system which is not too far off from how people see America today in terms of systemic bigotry, but that is politics and not worth discussing here. Just saying it is alot more realistic than you think.

Naruto is a self-made hypocrite and when it is someone else's revenge or justice he talks you out of it, but if HE deems it okay like say him getting mad and wanting revenge on Orochimaru for taking away his boyfriend best friend then it is okay. 

Naruto should have died a long time ago

 

Or again, Kakashi tries to talk Sasuke out of his revenge, but when Shikamaru is out for Hidan's blood he no only condones it he personally helps out. Naruto is FULL of hypocrisy, the more you think about it

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

Or again, Kakashi tries to talk Sasuke out of his revenge, but when Shikamaru is out for Hidan's blood he no only condones it he personally helps out. Naruto is FULL of hypocrisy, the more you think about it

 

Yeah, and yet in the case of Shikamaru, he only wants it because he blames himself for Asuma's death when there's no way in Hell he could have guessed what Hidan was capable of. At least in Sasuke's case, his justification besides his obvious jealousy towards Itachi for the acknowledgment he got from their father and how while Sasuke admired Itachi, he hated him too, he was mad by the torture Itachi put him through to cover his tracks so Sasuke would kill him, AND also the massacre in general. All Shikamaru really had was being butt hurt his sensei died instead of just letting it go and realizing he screwed up, so he had to try to be stronger.

 

The same kind of hypocrisy is in many cases too in other scenarios, like how some people treated Sasuke compared to Naruto over similar stuff after the massacre when Sasuke had begun to get consumed by his anger and jealousy towards Itachi, like how Sasuke took it too far in that one flashback when Kurama was trying to convince Naruto to give up on saving Sasuke, and how Iruka only chided Naruto for how he was, rather than also scolding Sasuke for his own abrasive attitude too.

[Phantom_999]

This is all true, but my main point is the "do not seek revenge" message falls flat on it's stupid face if you get other people doing it, then had the very person telling one character that all of a sudden say "okay, I'm gonna help out for this one."

Edited by Phantom_999, 24 July 2022 - 01:58 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

This is all true, but my main point is the "do not seek revenge" message falls flat on it's stupid face if you get other people doing it, then had the very person telling one character that all of a sudden say "okay, I'm gonna help out for this one."

The only justification is to look at the how they go about it instead of what they are doing.

 

Shikamaru and his teammates were going after an enemy of the village, The Akatsuki, that they already knew a general location of. They weren't abandoning the village or joining the enemy nor did they attack any member of the village that tried to stop them. While their Hokage Tsunade tried to persuade them not to go, she relented after Kakashi join them as a fourth member; which means it was approved by the village.

 

Sasuke had a seal on his neck that had everyone worried since it was designed to draw the person into desiring to serve an enemy of the village, Orochimaru, that just attacked the village and killed the third Hokage. He in a fit of jealousy picked a fight and used a jutsu designed for assassination on his teammate & the closest thing he has to a best friend. He abandoned the village to join the enemy for power like everyone feared he would and when his teammate tried to bring him back; he tried to kill him. This is just from one arc, this is ignoring everything else he did during part two.

 

Now looking at how they went about it, do you think they are equal guilty because they were both after revenge?

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 24 July 2022 - 04:46 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Well no. It is not the same. Really, my overall problem is the delivery of Kakashi just telling Sasuke to simply forget about his revenge, rather than calling him out on all of the acts Sasuke did in the name of revenge as you listed. It is the message of simply saying revenge is bad and Kakashi showing a bit of moral myopia over it rather the extremes and circumstances of either case that is contradictory and in my eyes rather hypocritical. Obviously anything and everything Sasuke has done is not something you should be rooting for, but again that is not he is called out on, Both Naruto and Kakashi are giving him the basic don't seek revenge schtick.

Edited by Phantom_999, 24 July 2022 - 09:16 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

 

Yeah, and yet in the case of Shikamaru, he only wants it because he blames himself for Asuma's death when there's no way in Hell he could have guessed what Hidan was capable of. At least in Sasuke's case, his justification besides his obvious jealousy towards Itachi for the acknowledgment he got from their father and how while Sasuke admired Itachi, he hated him too, he was mad by the torture Itachi put him through to cover his tracks so Sasuke would kill him, AND also the massacre in general. All Shikamaru really had was being butt hurt his sensei died instead of just letting it go and realizing he screwed up, so he had to try to be stronger.

 

The same kind of hypocrisy is in many cases too in other scenarios, like how some people treated Sasuke compared to Naruto over similar stuff after the massacre when Sasuke had begun to get consumed by his anger and jealousy towards Itachi, like how Sasuke took it too far in that one flashback when Kurama was trying to convince Naruto to give up on saving Sasuke, and how Iruka only chided Naruto for how he was, rather than also scolding Sasuke for his own abrasive attitude too.

i feel kakashi didn't handel the sasuke revenge thing well, he should have acted like a ninja and teacher. pull rank on him and boot him from the team at the first sign of him not being able to tell friends from enemies. and put him under lock and key til the curse mark is dealt with. cause just talking to sasuke wasn't going to work at all

tsunade is even worse keeping him as a ninja when she had to know about his need for revenge 

[Bail o' Lies]

Well no. It is not the same. Really, my overall problem is the delivery of Kakashi just telling Sasuke to simply forget about his revenge, rather than calling him out on all of the acts Sasuke did in the name of revenge as you listed. It is the message of simply saying revenge is bad and Kakashi showing a bit of moral myopia over it rather the extremes and circumstances of either case that is contradictory and in my eyes rather hypocritical. Obviously anything and everything Sasuke has done is not something you should be rooting for, but again that is not he is called out on, Both Naruto and Kakashi are giving him the basic don't seek revenge schtick.

Sasuke just picked a fight with Naruto and used an assassination jutsu during the fight. In fact, they were going so at it that Kakashi had to intervene because they were about to kill Sakura. Who tried to intervene because she felt while watching their spar; that they were going too far and were trying to kill each other. Both Sasuke and Naruto were given the message that they went too far. Naruto just needed Jiraiya to appear to get the message. Sasuke needed a sit down lecture.

 

The lecture could be summed up as: 'Sasuke, I did not teach you my signature jutsu so you could try to kill your teammates with it. There are a lot of people like you in this world that lived short bitter lives obsessed with revenge. Even if they achieve their revenge, they have nothing else to live for because they devoted their lives to it. I don't want that to happen to you. You need to move on. Like you, before forming this team everyone I have ever cared about is long dead, but we have found new people to care about in our teammates. Let's enjoy our new bonds and move forward with our lives, rather than obsessing over what we have lost.'

 

After this lecture, Sasuke abandoned everything to join the enemy in the name of power to get his revenge.

 

Shikamaru spent a few days moping after Asuma's death, then decided to go after his killers. After achieving his revenge, he went back to his old life with new dedications such as planning on becoming the Jonin sensei of Asuma's child. 

 

Generalizing them, they are both about revenge. It is the context where we must find the difference.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 25 July 2022 - 08:11 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

i feel kakashi didn't handel the sasuke revenge thing well, he should have acted like a ninja and teacher. pull rank on him and boot him from the team at the first sign of him not being able to tell friends from enemies. and put him under lock and key til the curse mark is dealt with. cause just talking to sasuke wasn't going to work at all

tsunade is even worse keeping him as a ninja when she had to know about his need for revenge 

 

The problem I see with Kakashi is that he basically saw himself in Sasuke, rather than seeing Sasuke was his own person, just as he saw Obito in Naruto and Rin in Sakura, rather than seeing them for who they are, because he was stuck in the past due to the guilt he felt about getting Obito "killed" and then having to kill Rin when she was manipulated into being a Jinchuriki as part of Madara's plans to sway Obito to his side.

[James S Cassidy]

Well no. It is not the same. Really, my overall problem is the delivery of Kakashi just telling Sasuke to simply forget about his revenge, rather than calling him out on all of the acts Sasuke did in the name of revenge as you listed. It is the message of simply saying revenge is bad and Kakashi showing a bit of moral myopia over it rather the extremes and circumstances of either case that is contradictory and in my eyes rather hypocritical. Obviously anything and everything Sasuke has done is not something you should be rooting for, but again that is not he is called out on, Both Naruto and Kakashi are giving him the basic don't seek revenge schtick.

"Do as I say, not as I do."

Now if Naruto pushed a kind of Punisher mentality where it is not about revenge it is about punishment and justice. Revenge is an emotional response rather than a logical one and since Naruto supposed to feel and connect with emotion, this should have been a battle he fights.

It is just weird. In some cases, he finds it unreasonable and in other cases, despite it being a similar situation, will say it is reasonable and supports it. I know Naruto is not lawyer anime, but come on this is basic understanding of principles.

[Nate River]

Its more "I'll follow Jiraiya's wishes and try to find the answer." While also reminding Nagato that Jiraiya believed in him, renewing his hope in peace, and placing his trust in Naruto. I don't have a problem with Pein's talk no jutsu. Since finding the answer to world peace or ending the cycle of hatred is difficult.

 

But, I don't think the excuse works in the final battle with Sasuke. Since that was suppose to be a clash of plans that were made from the paths they walked to reach that point. Sasuke gave his stupid Shadow-Hokage terrorize the world straight plan while Naruto had no plan, despite the fact the it was the last battle before the end. Which then led to the problems of Boruto as Naruto's failure to have a plan or even an idea meant the next generation has to repeat the same conflict.

 

This was one reason I’ve been critical of the NaruSasu conflict as a micro version of the world ninja system. It just doesn’t work. Naruto’s lack of plan v. Sasuke’s nonsensical one. As a method of formally burying the Senju-Uchiha (especially since most of them were dead and much of what drove Sasuke at a fundamental level originated from that) it could work with the aspirational idea of taking lessons learned to apply on a larger scale. The struggle to do so would have been an obvious plot line for a sequel that wouldn’t undermine his victory  or goals.