12811 replies to this topic

[rocci]

@princess iris
Moon is the symbol of calamities in this manga.
Whenever tragedy happen, there will always moon in there.

[Niky]

IMO he's not 'that' dumb. He never forgot about Byakugan. He just never wanted them to have it. It's just a sh*tty excuse he's giving to those who ask him about Byakugan.

 

THIS!

 

But, you know, let's face it, the only true cool byakugan possessor was Neji. 

Bolt and Himawari are already ugly (as it should be NH mix). With the byakugan they would be... unmentionables (?).

[TouKen4Life3g]

"If there's no conflict, there's no story."

So thats where we draw the line now? We have to excuse the plot line by saying that? It is true that we need a conflict, but that doesnt mean it can be anything. While we have the free will to write about anything, there is something called choice that can be graded by good or bad. That said just because you need a conflict, doesnt mean it can be excused from negative comments. If we allow all series, movies, games, novels, anything in general to do that, then whats the point of good and bad.

So dont excuse anything from making any plot that is especially not necessary to the theme, the universe, the characters, and so on. Try thinking is the moral to the bad writer and its what you should have thought as well.

[Luna]

My bf doesn't care about pairings thank god. He thought ns would have happened

Edited by Luna, 26 April 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[luffyq1]

The fandom's constant need to anthropomorphize these characters into something to be loved, idolized, hated or blamed as if they were human is the reason that this story was turned to kitten. You can't reasonably lay blame on a fictional character because they don't exist to take the blame.

 

Bashing the authors take or characterization of a particular character is one thing, but actually bashing something that's not real is just a waste of time. Whenever you do the former rather than the latter then you're always making sure that the blame is being squarely laid where it should be, with the author.

 

The destruction of the Naruto manga is completely the fault of two parties. Kishimoto and his studio partners. And the fans who's constant call for attention to their favorite characters caused the story to take a sudden and horrendous turn so that said characters got their happy ending. That is the reason why the first 2/3 and the last 1/3 of this manga reads like it was written one way then retconned the rest of the way.

 

Just my take on it.

bless this post!

 

[Jenskott]

 

The fandom's constant need to anthropomorphize these characters into something to be loved, idolized, hated or blamed as if they were human is the reason that this story was turned to kitten. You can't reasonably lay blame on a fictional character because they don't exist to take the blame.

 

Bashing the authors take or characterization of a particular character is one thing, but actually bashing something that's not real is just a waste of time. Whenever you do the former rather than the latter then you're always making sure that the blame is being squarely laid where it should be, with the author.

 

The destruction of the Naruto manga is completely the fault of two parties. Kishimoto and his studio partners. And the fans who's constant call for attention to their favorite characters caused the story to take a sudden and horrendous turn so that said characters got their happy ending. That is the reason why the first 2/3 and the last 1/3 of this manga reads like it was written one way then retconned the rest of the way.

 

Just my take on it.

 

 

I wish I can like twenty times this post. It's completely spot-on.

 

It's because this I always try not to make character-bashing. These characters are fictional. I can or can not like a character, but bash them? Nope.

[Awes9]

l don't think he's a decent man, look at the kitten he writes. This is what he believes ideal relationships and inspirational messages are. It's supremely messed up and it all comes from his mind in a very straightforward way, you're supposed to take it at face value there's no subversion or satire here.
 
lt's one thing to write very dark fiction that's supposed to be morally questionable and depressing like Berserk or Attack on Titan, it's another thing entirely when you get the same result while trying to write a heartwarming epic about world peace, human understanding and bonds between people.

The man is messed up for sure and has some disturbing philosopy of life but I don't know him personally so I'll refrain from judging the human being, he has no criminal history nor did I ever people complain about the person, besides I'm not even sure he is the writer of the manga and not just a figurehead.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

If we take the rivalry thing from the movie as canon then we need to do the same with Sakura's comments that she could never stop loving Sasuke. That means she lied to Naruto.

Either way, this argument is stupid. Both characters suck. It isn't a competition to see who is worse.

Also, can we not use such offensive language? It wouldn't be cool to use the N-word here.

I never stopped loving Sasuke doesn't mean "I only EVER loved sasuke"

Naruto on the other hand is a huge kittening liar, hypocrite and a piece of kitten who toyed with the people around him, NOT just Sakura but everyone he sold the lie of "loving her" to which was every kittening one including a good portion of the audience. 

He will always be a bigger scumbag then Sakura. 

If the argument is stupid don't engage people in it. Let me have my piece and move on. 

 

[Change]

The fandom's constant need to anthropomorphize these characters into something to be loved, idolized, hated or blamed as if they were human is the reason that this story was turned to kitten. You can't reasonably lay blame on a fictional character because they don't exist to take the blame.

 

Bashing the authors take or characterization of a particular character is one thing, but actually bashing something that's not real is just a waste of time. Whenever you do the former rather than the latter then you're always making sure that the blame is being squarely laid where it should be, with the author.

 

The destruction of the Naruto manga is completely the fault of two parties. Kishimoto and his studio partners. And the fans who's constant call for attention to their favorite characters caused the story to take a sudden and horrendous turn so that said characters got their happy ending. That is the reason why the first 2/3 and the last 1/3 of this manga reads like it was written one way then retconned the rest of the way.

 

Just my take on it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way

 

 

The man is messed up for sure and has some disturbing philosopy of life but I don't know him personally so I'll refrain from judging the human being, he has no criminal history nor did I ever people complain about the person, besides I'm not even sure he is the writer of the manga and not just a figurehead.

I don't know... his interviews make you question his personality as well 

[luffyq1]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way

 

 

I don't know... his interviews make you question his personality as well 

and why is he always laughing? is the destruction of his series that fumy to him? 

[harry4e]

Hate breeds Hate...I just realised that Kishi has done to the fanbase what the Ninja System did to clans, and villages.

 

They were pit against each other, breeding distrust between them, and constant war. This is the fandom right now. The development of the plot has taken a backseat, no body is talking about it anymore, we are all arguing over the assasination of the charactors we once all loved.

 

So we should all be asking ourselves, not just NaruSaku fans but all of us, NaruHina, SasuSaku, SasuKari, and NaruSasu. Should we all be fighting amongst ourselves on a story about resolving differences and changing our methods of thinking, when the creater of the series blatently does this to his fanbase, he deliberately pits us against each other.

 

Would you read a story about Racial Equality from known  racist? No. Would you watch a movie about gender equality from a known sexist? No So why are we reading a story about peace, when the creater constantly puts his fans againgst each other?

 

I need to stop reading this poison, because that's what it's becoming, poison to the system, it's turning people who used to disagree on pairings but still be united through the manga, argue and place borders. Yes it's united those with similar thoughts but the fanbase in general is more divided than ever...and this has all been diliberately done by Kishi.

 

Edit: The sad part is I know I will still continue reading this crap.

Edited by harry4e, 26 April 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Shashank95]

and why is he always laughing? is the destruction of his series that fumy to him? 

From the way he screws his characters over...... I think he enjoys destroying his own work,

[Namaenash]

The fandom's constant need to anthropomorphize these characters into something to be loved, idolized, hated or blamed as if they were human is the reason that this story was turned to kitten. You can't reasonably lay blame on a fictional character because they don't exist to take the blame.

 

Bashing the authors take or characterization of a particular character is one thing, but actually bashing something that's not real is just a waste of time. Whenever you do the former rather than the latter then you're always making sure that the blame is being squarely laid where it should be, with the author.

 

The destruction of the Naruto manga is completely the fault of two parties. Kishimoto and his studio partners. And the fans who's constant call for attention to their favorite characters caused the story to take a sudden and horrendous turn so that said characters got their happy ending. That is the reason why the first 2/3 and the last 1/3 of this manga reads like it was written one way then retconned the rest of the way.

 

Just my take on it.

 

Agreed. I suppose it's human nature to console ourselves when things didn't go according to what we wanted --typically by finding excuses as our scape goats. It's very human, so, I won't judge on that... All of these complaints and bashing would never be there if it was not ignited by the author in the first place.

 

IF the characters that we cherished were never dismissed, if the journey laid out in the past has been properly concluded, if we were never mocked for being loyal readers, if the author didn't arrogantly said he mislead us in the past 15 years,  --none of this post-ending drama and hatred between fans would happen. Up till today, there's no single statement of apology or gratitude ever been issued to NS fandom from the author himself.

 

It's clear that the recent events and directions are meant for us to discuss about the manga. To capture our attention, and eventually spend some money to buy their products. Hey, it's a free advertisement and propaganda right, so, why not? :)

 

As you said, it's a waste of time for everyone. There's no point to beat the dead horse --like what the current spin-off is doing. We know for sure there will be no NS moments anymore. We know for sure Salad's parents are Sasuke / Sakura. We know for sure how it'll end.

 

They just want ex-fans' attention to read the series again. If the fans who walked away after the ending didn't give that much impact, why they didn't start the spin-off with something more thematic? Why in every interview they had to discuss why certain things didn't happen the way logical readers thought it supposed to be?

 

The fact that the first chapter of the spin-off started without positive mention of the canon pairings, speak volume isn't it? It is a premier start that those fandoms have been waiting for few months. Why don't keep up the hype? Where's the positive notion of SS in this new spin-off start? Where's Hinata and what's her thought about Bolt? She supposed to manage and educate her children isn't she?

 

Yet what SS/NH fandom got was the exact opposite, together with characters we can hardly relate and a slap to SS fandom.

 

If the author didn't get the numbers he want, I won't be surprised if NH is targeted next. He operates that way isn't he?

 

When you love someone, you can't live without them. Sounds very cheesy, but it's true --this is coming from someone who's been married for close to a decade . That's why they say your soulmate is your other half. Sakura live alone with her daughter for so many years without the presence of her 'love', Sasuke never once visited them for all those years, and yet those are supposedly deliberate decision by adults. Let it sink and decide yourself if their love is genuine (I didn't read the chapter, only skimmed through the discussion here where Sakura is depicted as a sad, lonely and aging mother. Everytime she answered her daughter's question, it feels like she has a lot of regrets... ).

 

They could've started by depicting a great bonds between the older generations and the younger ones while introducing the new threat or villains that needs to be addressed. Or probably show the main canon pairing (NH/SS) quests to address the theme of the series itself (hard work to achieve your dreams, addressing the cycle of hatred in uchiha clan, main vs branch issue in hyuuga clan, teaching the younger generation about the will of fire, etc). A single panel of Bolt stating his dream and ambition would be enough. Instead, we got a whiner, a spoiled child which can't get the fact that his father is dead busy.

 

They can even start the first chapter with a bang. Imagine if the village was suddenly attacked or about to be attacked by new threats. They can re-enact the Pain Invasion and get the younger generation to react on it. They can show the new threats are using edo-tensei to bring back great shinobi from the past, show everyone is working together to desperately survive.

 

A spin-off with children-parent relationship issues, in which their parents went through a lot in the past 15 years for growing up alone/neglected in their childhood. What was the point of their parent's journey?

 

That's right, there's none :) The same goes with this spin-off and its recycled themes, plus the unnecessary drama... It only shows that the series is only funded by those who cared about pairings and romance.

 

Such a waste of time for everyone indeed....

[WhyDoIWatch]

Their fans are who pushed a huge percentage of the market with this story, which Kishimoto and SP answered because they believed they were the most profitable.

 

I did not ship NS because of some self insertion the way most of NH and SS's fans did, I did it because it was the most logical conclusion to the story as it was constructed. It made the most sense. An entire movie had to be made to retcon the main drive of the original manga, in order to excuse the canon pairings.

 

If you don't think Sasuke and Hinata are mainly popular because of how they look then I don't know what to tell you. Sasuke was villain who couldn't be punished because of his popularity, and Hinata did absolutely nothing int he main story but once attempt to commit suicide by jumping in front of a mad man who was trying to kill her crush. Both are liked specifically by the majority of their fans because of their looks. I was a member of NF since 2009, I've read the arguments their fans have made multiple times, and in the end it all boils down to their looks.

 

Which extends to further other parts of the story. How did Kakashi look like when he was finally revealed? Like a freaking super model if that picture is correct. What was Kishimoto's big idea of how to make "Sakura more popular" why he choose to make her look like a movie star.

 

Why? Because the man does not know how to actually build characters. The only way he knows how to make someone popular is by making them handsome or beautiful.

 

I've said it a thousand times and will continue to whenever I talk about this subject. If Sasuke looked like Qausimodo he wouldn't have a fifth of the fan base he had today. The same thing can be said about Hinata.

No, Kishi actually said he wasn't going to make Sasuke's journey because he wasn't interested which makes your claim that he tried to appeal to the Sasuke fans fall flat. I however am conflicted in talking about Hinata's popularity, if she was so profitable Kishi would have shown her more or made her in  to the heroine instead of Sakura but most of her fans like her because she's this shy girl who tries to better herself, I only see NH fans who like her because shes "hot" though i'll give you her.

 

I never said you did. I said people self inserts in all of the main parings not just SS or NH.

I don't disagree that some people like Sasuke and Hinata because of their looks but that is barely a majority or anything considerably big, and you also missed my point that most characters fans would drop if they looked like Qausimodo including Naruto or Sakura.

 

I agree that most of Kishi's characters are trash and people mostly like them for superficial reasons or because they are relatable rather than the fact that they are interesting/developed character.

 

 

The puppeteer? I know you couldn't know this but I tried creating an Anti-Ksihimoto Fan Club on NF many times. The only reason I didn't at the very end when I was finally going to be allowed to was I got tired of NF and the Pro Kishimoto fans there after the ending.

 

I hate the characters because of how they ruined the story. Which I have always placed solely on Kishimoto and by extension on his fans. As I said I know full well Sasuke and Hinata aren't real, which is why I don't feel bad when anyone bashes them for the shallow reasons that their fans love them.

 

And again, criticizing characters because of what Ksihimoto does to them, and how their supporting fans see them should be clear and open game. They are not real people you don't have to protect their "feelings", they don't have any. Hinata and Sasuke's fans dragged this story down in the gutter because Kishimoto in the end appealed to them, and ruined everything he was setting up in his story for them.

 

For the love of good he even ruined the main theme of the story (Free will being the true guide to life not "fate".) Just so Sasuke and Naruto would be shown as "soul-brothers" who were destined to save the universe because they were chosen to always do it. Instead of the story being about a spunky little orphan kid, who by hard work and effort save the world, got the girl, lived his life on his terms, and freed people from the chains of slavery of the ninja system, it instead became another retelling of "The Once and Future King" with Naruto playing the role of King Arthur, reincarnated to save the day once again as he was destined to because of his greatness and failures of his past lives.

 

All of that and more happened just so Sasuke, precious Sasuke, had an excuse to why he was such an asshat. He wasn't a bad guy, oh no not Sasuke! First he is an Uchiha and they "love to much", by their nature. Secondly he is the reincarnation of a prince who in the past choose to rely on his own strength instead of the strengths of others. You see that's why Sasuke is evil, he didn't choose to be a traitor and terrorist, oh no he was destined to react like that, and to take up that mantle. You see it wasn't Sasuke's choice, no it wasn't his fault, it was just the character he has always had inside of him. He's "pure" he doesn't understand the idea of "good and evil".

 

Which was Kishimoto's excuse to put NH/SS together so he could reap the benefits financially from them. I mean who cares about the freaking story, fanboys and fangirls have been drawing hentai stories about the "hot" couples, can't disappoint them.

The "work hard" theme was trashed since it was introduced, because they guy advocating that kitten was someone with a monster demon with Above-Kage level chakra not the Reincarntion. And if you're talking about "fate" all I have to say is go re-read Pain Arc-Kage Summit where Jiraya/Toad Sage explicitly state that Naruto is the Child of Propechy. 

 

There are a multitude of things that made Naruto kitten and they all started in the beginning of Part 2, like I said Hinata is irrelevant to anything that is not paring related and parings aren't as big of a deal in the Naruto manga only the fanbase. 

 

Bolded-Sakura is not a trophy to be won by Naruto just like Sasuke and Naruto aren't trophies to be won by Hinata and Sakura. How is this even a goal?

[Narufan85]

I never stopped loving Sasuke doesn't mean "I only EVER loved sasuke"
Naruto on the other hand is a huge kittening liar, hypocrite and a piece of kitten who toyed with the people around him, NOT just Sakura but everyone he sold the lie of "loving her" to which was every kittening one including a good portion of the audience. 
He will always be a bigger scumbag then Sakura. 
If the argument is stupid don't engage people in it. Let me have my piece and move on.

I can't help it. I get annoyed when I see different standards applied to characters. Why do we destroy Naruto for loving Sakura because of a rivalry but give her a pass for doing the same thing?

[tricksie]

 

100% agree with this.

 

Kishimoto as the writer is ultimately guilty for everthing but if I forget Kishimoto and have to blame a character, I blame Sakura only for the way the pairings played out.

 

Naruto loved Sakura.

Sakura loved Sasuke

Sasuke had zero romantic interest in Sakura

Hinata loved Naruto

 

If Sakura had simply dropped her feelings for Sasuke, NS would have been canon and we will be the ones enjoying all the new era stuff. Sakura had good reason to move on from sasuke but she never did and that was the problem.

 

Hinata was a side character so her feelings never really would have mattered if Sakura had moved on and fell in love with Naruto because NS would have then been mutual. 

 

Simply put, the moment NS was mutual, Hinata would have been the one to move on from Naruto.

 

So unlike most people here, I don't blame Naruto for moving on from Sakura. I dont see it as him giving up. Naruto can't force Sakura to love him and If Naruto did not move on, he would probably have been like Jiraiya or Kakashi. Single.... and i personally dont see that as a happy ending for Naruto.

Lol Naruto didn't move on, Radra


he never loved her

 

 

And herein lies the problem — if you accept that the ending scenario, which confirms that Sakura never moved on from Sasuke...then you also have to accept that Naruto only was attracted to Sakura because of his rivalry in the first place. 

 

According to the ending, Sakura never once feels bad for Naruto's 'unrequited love' — because, according to the ending, she knew it wasn't love, and love for her, at all. It was all about his feelings for Sasuke. She literally just laughs it off. And he goes along without blinking and eye. Shifting his affections, apparently in that moment, once and for all to Hinata.

 

The problem with blaming Sakura for never moving on from Sasuke is that if you do, you must, in the same breath, admit that it didn't matter anyway:  Naruto didn't love her to begin with. And she knew it all along. So there was nothing for her to move on to. 

[Dario]

The Naruto fandom has always been toxic, full of petty "wars" between fans of different pairings, characters or clans. lt's one of the most negative, divided and dare l say stupid fandoms l've ever seen and it was like that long before the ending.

[WhyDoIWatch]

The Naruto fandom has always been toxic, full of petty "wars" between fans of different pairings, characters or clans. lt's one of the most negative, divided and dare l say stupid fandoms l've ever seen and it was like that long before the ending.

I 100% agree especially the Youtube Community.

[Shashank95]

The Naruto fandom has always been toxic, full of petty "wars" between fans of different pairings, characters or clans. lt's one of the most negative, divided and dare l say stupid fandoms l've ever seen and it was like that long before the ending.

 

I 100% agree especially the Youtube Community.

 

If you guys think that we are that stupid.... Why do you folks take the time to come here and pour your heart out...??

 

And let's not generalize the entire fandom. I mean we have so many people right here who take their time to be sensible and reasonable with their arguments.

Edited by Shashank95, 26 April 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[tricksie]

"If there's no conflict, there's no story."

So thats where we draw the line now? We have to excuse the plot line by saying that? It is true that we need a conflict, but that doesnt mean it can be anything. While we have the free will to write about anything, there is something called choice that can be graded by good or bad. That said just because you need a conflict, doesnt mean it can be excused from negative comments. If we allow all series, movies, games, novels, anything in general to do that, then whats the point of good and bad.

So dont excuse anything from making any plot that is especially not necessary to the theme, the universe, the characters, and so on. Try thinking is the moral to the bad writer and its what you should have thought as well.

 

If the series hadn't had a good editor for the first two parts, up to the end of the Pain arc, we wouldn't even be trying to justify how the story went off its wheels.

 

Kishimoto is terrible at building a plot. Terrible. It's apparent to everyone now. When there wasn't the pressure of money and popularity out there, Kishimoto and his editors created a great story. But that changed when money/popularity became involved, "Naruto" sky-rocketed in popularity, and his main editor left. At the end of the Pain Arc. 

 

His editor left, and Kishimoto's story completely unraveled. We just didn't know how bad it was until the end. 

 

People mistakenly assigning the bromide "Conflict is what makes the story" as a justification for how badly everything went, are oversimplifying and ignoring what really has happened.

 

Creating conflict in a story is like building a house of cards, then carefully sliding out one of the key cards from the support.

 

The whole house trembles, no one can breathe in case it might fall, and you are left both worrying that some terrible person might come along and pull another card, and hoping that some hero will come up with some new, creative, unimagineable way to prop the whole thing up and return it to rights.

 

That's creating conflict. 

 

What Kishimoto did is like 52-Card Pickup.

 

He blew the whole thing up in our faces. Without care or concern for what has come before in the plot or what is going to follow after. He dumped out everything, and now is picking up the individual pieces to create an entirely different story. We still see elements we recognize — it's still the same cards — but the outcome is entirely different. Sifting through a pile of cards and trying to make sense of the pattern is not the same as a carefully constructing house of cards. And once that pile is on the floor, only starting over will ever build that house up again.

 

And readers who only justify Kishimoto's garbage actions by saying 'he must have planned it that way' just aren't mature enough to recognize what has really happened.