45 replies to this topic

[Kamina-Yoshi]

What the holocoust has to do with anything? it was completly seprated from the war and had nothing to do with it , the extermnation of these people served nothing for the Nazis expet to fulfil their sick ideology.

Oh, yes, and Hitler started the war as a little bar joke for Wet T-Shirt Mondays.

About who started it, yeah, we did those things you say, Why we did it? from your words it seems we just want to extermanite the palastinans and rule Gaza has kings, now get this Yoshi because from all the things there is one you should really understand.

ISRAEL DOSN'T WANT GAZA

The government has a funny way of showing it, then.

Why Israel blockaded Gaza? why most of the israelis support the blockade? as I said before, because most of the israelis are AFRAID, Every time we open up the border, we get a suicide bombing, kidnepping or shooting in the middle of tel aviv. as I said before, fear is the main motivation of the general populace to support action such as these. Palastine is a crumbling state where Choas are rempnent, asking the palestinians wont do a thing, so the israelis just prefer the easy way.

Maybe it's because your government has bombed and starved the Palestinians nearly to Kingdom-Come, and they're scared half out of their minds? Justification for the humiliation of an entire region is injustifiable, no matter what Israel might say.

About tunnels, once again I will ask you, how do you know that what they pass through these tunnels are supplies? really? from the blogs and newspaper you read? IDF intelegence showed hundreds of tunnles (around the 300) the hammas has that trensports what? weapons weapons and weapons. ofc you can just say it's all propoganda of the IDF to make an excuse to go back in, because we would really want to go back in there

Weapons because they want ya'll to get the hell out of their neighborhoods. If Hamas has to do what they have to do to defend their region, they won't have second thoughts about attacking your government, which also means your towns. Really, come on already. You're making them sound like the Mongolians led by Genghis Khan. They aren't strong enough to inflict huge damage on you. The sad thing is, I can still count how many Israeli's died on my two hands from Palestinian retaliation to Israel's attacks, yet I need half my school to lend their hands to count how many 'collatoral damage' casualties have happened.

About what you say that hammas just Defends the palastinan people, if so, then why they shoot at civilien targets instead of miltery ones? (for 8 years by the way) dammit, if they once in their life time would fight aginst the army insted of unarmed civiliens I would be right there with you calling them freedom fighters.

Perhaps because they want you to taste your own medicine? An Eye for an Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth. So it's okay when they get slaughtered by the vastly superior bombers of the Israeli military and their rockets, but when Hamas does it it's a terrible thing?


Oh, and have a look at this United Kingdom blog. If you want more sources, I'll bring ten links with similar stories forward.

http://www.guardian....thepalestinians

http://www.palestine...ts/charter.html

If you bothred to read it I will just point out this, Hamas dosn't want peace with us, Hamas dosn't recognize us, and I can't beagin to tell you how many times we get a massge from the Hamas that states over and over again to us they will destroy us.

If the Hamas truly wanted what was best for the palastinans they will just do this guy said:

"We must not face violence with violence, but face violence with passive aggressiveness."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

Oh wait sorry that's only for us the israelis.

Only for you Israeli's? You think that you're the only ones that want peace? Yes, Dormin, yes, even single last child and woman in Gaza are forcing a region of people to starve and blowing up schools where they 'think they heard gunfire'*.

*Another reference to Israeli's 'collateral damage' accidents in Gaza.

About why the palastinans don't run away?
Really I think you can guss what I will say here ( Hamas uses civs as human shields, that kind of thing) what I don't understand why are you detremeimend this isn't true? they said themselves they will let all of gaza burn before they will admit they lost. I think you allredy knows about the creative ways they can use the Word "šahīd" for their struggle and My bro tells me the Hammas soldiers just took down their uniforms and are just hiding along with the civs, how the hell do they protect them?

Maybe it's because the civilians are willing to die for their freedom? Some of these soldiers are barely trained, and some are citizens saying 'I'll die for Gaza'. Hamas is loved in Gaza, because he's their only protector. Israel has been starving Gaza, and Hamas has brought, albeit violent, piece of hope. I do not say Hamas is peace-loving, I said they should take a page out of Martin Luther King's ideology. Don't miss-quote me, or I probably didn't write it clearly enough.

Frankly man, you are not in Gaza you get your information from weblogs and newspaper, and unless you are in contact with some palastinan dude who is just there as well over the internetz, you can't be sure your info is 100% true.
Then why are you so ceartin we are the bad guys here? beacuse we killed more then them? what about the israeli whom are killed iun the conflict? is their blood worth less in your eyes because they don't die as much then the palastinans?

1) If I was in Gaza, Dormin, I wouldn't even be able to be talking to you right now. Think about that for a while.
2) These 'interviews with Palestinians' are just people who want to get the HELL out of Gaza, because they can't take being suppressed by borders, rockets and starvation. You would, too, if you were in their shoes, I can say that right now.
3) Because you guys broke the cease-fire, starved a nation and double-crossed Hamas and the Palestinians. Here is some information from Wikipedia:

The Breakdown of Gaza-Israeli Truce. --Click here to view--

On November 4, 2008 the ceasefire began to break down after Israeli forces killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid inside the Gaza Strip. Hamas responded with a barrage of rockets which led to Defense Minister Ehud Barak giving approval for Operation Cast Lead, a series of airstrikes across Gaza, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert after discussion with Barak decided to put the operation on hold. On December 18, 2008, Hamas issued a statement declaring that it would end the six-month ceasefire scheduled to officially expire the next day. Hamas blamed Israel, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the blockade under which little more than humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza. On December 21, following the launch of more than 70 rockets from Gaza targeted at Israel, Hamas issued a statement that they would consider renewing the expired truce—"if Israel stopped its aggression" in Gaza and opened up its border crossings. The previous six weeks had seen a "dramatic increase" in attacks from Hamas, spiking at some 200 or so a day, according to the Israeli government. On December 24, Israeli President Shimon Peres visited the western Negev town of Sderot which has been bombarded by Hamas rockets on a regular basis. Joining with residents in a Hanukkah candle-lighting ceremony, Peres said: "In Gaza they are lighting rockets and in Sderot we are lighting candles."

Over the weekend of 27-28 December, Israel implemented Operation Cast Lead against Hamas. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said "We warned Hamas repeatedly that rejecting the truce would push Israel to aggression against Gaza."Hamas has estimated that at least 100 members of its security forces had been killed. According to Israel, militant training camps, rocket-manufacturing facilities and weapons warehouses that had been pre-identified were hit, and later they attacked rocket and mortar squads who fired around 180 rockets and mortars at Israeli communities. The chief of Gaza's police forces, Tawfiq Jabber, and senior Hamas leader Nizar Rayyan were among those killed. Although Israel sent out thousands of cell-phone messages urging residents of Gaza to leave houses where weapons may be stored, in an attempt to minimise civilian casualties, there have been widespread reports of civilians killed. Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak indicated the operation will continue until the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel ceases.

Information on Supply Trucks --Click here to view--

Israel allowed some increase in the quantities of goods trucked into Gaza, from 70 truckloads per day to ninety, but traffic was not restored to the 500-600 truckloads delivered daily before the closing and the mix of goods was also restricted. Israel accused Hamas of continuing the smuggling of weapons into the Gaza strip via tunnels to Egypt, pointing out that the rocket attacks had not completely ceased, and complained that Hamas would not continue negotiating the release of Israeli hostage Gilad Schalit, held by Hamas in Gaza since 2006.

On 4 November 2008, Israeli troops raided a border area of the Gaza Strip, where the Israeli military claimed Hamas had built a tunnel which they were planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers. A Hamas fighter was killed, Hamas launched rockets over the border, and Israeli strikes on the rocket launchers killed another five Hamas members.[89] Hamas termed this raid a "massive breach of the truce," and Hamas rocket attacks increased sharply in November 2008, approaching the pre-truce levels.

Edited by Kamina-Yoshi, 10 January 2009 - 06:35 AM.

[Zatren6]

Stay safe Dormin, hope you're doing alright.

Edited by Zatren6, 10 January 2009 - 02:35 AM.

[Zero BD]

Keep yourself safe Dormin. And hopefully we'll have another truce soon.

[Sakura Blossoms]

:rolleyes: @ Yoshi

Stay safe, Dormin and everyone else over there

[Dormin]

Hrmm yeah Hitler started the war to expend Germany, not to kill everyone that was diffrent then him. that came later on in 41.

We broken the cease-fire? man you are so misinformed, since August our Southern region has been bombed by Hamas, why you didn't heared that? prolly beacause no one has died, so the media didn't bother posting it. I guss only when the Hamas will kill as much as people we do, we can do somthing, because we need to play nice and let the Hamas have it's share.

We don't want Gaza but the people of the south are sick and tired of living in fear, so the gorement thought the best solution is to go in, disable Hamas and go back, no one wants to stay in Gaza.

As I said before, if the Hamas truly wanted peace, they would first recognize there is a country besides palastine to make peace to beagin with, but they don't recognize my country, they want to kick me out, they said it too many times to us and the palastinans. You even read the hamas founding charter I posted before? they steal the supplies we have trensported and give it to the palastinans so they will know the Hamas is giving them the supplies they need.

About what you said about that civilians are willing to die for their freedom, and beacuse of that they don't leave.
What is strange that just above in your post you said they are scared out of their minds and all they want is to escape gaza, what? suddnly they got this urge to die for the freedom?


You know we can argue all we want Yoshi, but I will just end it here.
The reason for my arguments arent to support my country's action as I don't support it. what im asking you is to borden up your views on this thing, because no matter how informed you are, you still arent here, you watch people talk on tv but you don't talk to them,.
You live in the USA, the strongest country in the world whose nighboring countries are Canda and Maxico, so it's easy for you to judge my country, you don't live in fear, you feel safe, you arent surrounded by hostile people would love nothing more to see you gone. so it's easy for you to call our situasion the normal David vs Golith, judge our suffring and say it's nothing more then 'think they heard gunfire'
Im not asking you to support my country, just borden your views a bit. for every palastinan you heared that loves the Hamas I can give you another who is scaredof the Hamas, and another who would like nothing more to see the Hamas gone.

Stop being so Total on your views.

Thanks for the support everyone but send my regerds to my brother who is in there in Gaza, along to all the people who suffer from this stupid war, may it end soon.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Thanks for the support everyone but send my regerds to my brother who is in there in Gaza, along to all the people who suffer from this stupid war, may it end soon.

We will

Im not asking you to support my country, just borden your views a bit. for every palastinan you heared that loves the Hamas I can give you another who is scaredof the Hamas, and another who would like nothing more to see the Hamas gone.

Stop being so Total on your views.

And expanding on what Dormin has said, broaden your views Yoshi and stop living through you little 'blogs'.

And as I've said to you multiple times before, in just about every political thread that has ever made on this site, grow up already, expand your horizons, and stop being so rigid in your views.

But if you haven't listened to what I, and numerous others have already told you about how you present yourself and your so-called 'worldy' views, I highly doubt that you're going to start listening to any of us now :rolleyes:

[Codus N]

Look, Yoshi I don't wanna see this thread of mine to be closed too soon 'kay? I wanna see lots of people pour their ideas into this. My dream is becoming a diplomat, & this thread is one of the first steps to it. Sure, I can understand what you're thinking, remember politics can be biased. So, the best thing to do is to try & understand from both point of views got it? BTW what do you think Obama will do?

Edited by Newkerz, 10 January 2009 - 02:05 PM.

[Illmatic]

Look, Yoshi I don't wanna see this thread of mine to be closed too soon 'kay? I wanna see lots of people pour their ideas into this. My dream is becoming a diplomat, & this thread is one of the first steps to it. Sure, I can understand what you're thinking, remember politics can be biased. So, the best thing to do is to try & understand from both point of views got it? BTW what do you think Obama will do?

hopefully he destroys the monster that is the BCS. but he'd need a second term to even try...

[Nate River]

hopefully he destroys the monster that is the BCS. but he'd need a second term to even try...

A tad off topic. But for the record, Texas congressman are trying to pass a such law and the Utah Attorney General is looking into suing them for anti-trust violations.

[Kamina-Yoshi]

We will


And expanding on what Dormin has said, broaden your views Yoshi and stop living through you little 'blogs'.

And as I've said to you multiple times before, in just about every political thread that has ever made on this site, grow up already, expand your horizons, and stop being so rigid in your views.

But if you haven't listened to what I, and numerous others have already told you about how you present yourself and your so-called 'worldy' views, I highly doubt that you're going to start listening to any of us now :rolleyes:

Wow, now that is what I call childish. "Grow up already"? "Expand my horizons"? What about you? Why don't you and Dormin expand your horizons to my views?


I actually listened and debated with Dormin, and now you have to mock me like some sort of little child? It's sad, Shauna. If you will act this way, fine, I won't stick around here anymore.

[Zatren6]

Wow, now that is what I call childish. "Grow up already"? "Expand my horizons"? What about you? Why don't you and Dormin expand your horizons to my views?


I actually listened and debated with Dormin, and now you have to mock me like some sort of little child? It's sad, Shauna. If you will act this way, fine, I won't stick around here anymore.

Wow, Yoshi. I've never really talked to you, and I may not know you very well, so I may be flawed in my views of you, but I've read many of your posts in some of the other threads, and I just thought I'd say:

You always provide feeble arguments that aren't backed up (oh wait-you provided Wikipedia and some blogs) and then when people tell you to open your mind a bit, and try to think from different perspectives, you get offended and tell them expand to YOUR views instead? Every single argument and counterargument you have is pretty much, "No no, I'm right and you're wrong," and some weak, if any, back up. In fact, you don't even READ some of the things that the person you're arguing with has to say, like Nate, who, in fact, DOES make much better posts and arguments than you, but you choose not to read them because they're long winded, essentially saying, "tl;dr."

And THEN, when people call you childish for being so narrow and strict to your views, you turn and call them childish for pointing out what is in fact very clear. You seem to think that everyone that DOESN'T have the same views as you is WRONG, and that YOU'RE not the narrow minded one, but everyone else is being narrow minded, because of course, you're the most sensible one here, and I'm so very childish for pointing out your flaw.

But by all means, if you can't even see why people are getting annoyed at you (and for very blatant reasons), then you might as well go ahead and leave, because people here just can't see the oh-so-holy perspective of Yoshimoto Trigen, eh?

Sorry for the extremely off topic post, but I thought that should have been said...give me a warning or whatever. But don't close the topic, Newkerz created something pretty good here. If its necessary, I can delete this post.

Edited by Zatren6, 10 January 2009 - 04:43 PM.

[Destiny]

I pray that Gaza may be safe and the conflict will resolve as soon as possible. Obama most certainly has his work cut out for him.

Stay safe everyone who lives in that region; my prayers and thoughts are with you.

PS Yoshi. Stop attacking people. Shauna is right, I see time and time again that you do not take another's views into consideration. Practice empathy and understanding instead of judgement and being hard headed. I have seen many give you that much at the least.

[Dormin]

I aknowladge the fact that none of us truly knows what's going on over there, that's what's the point of my entire argument while you act like your sources are 100% solid with no chance they are misleading. Why do you think I didn't listend to you? I was the only one here who said in this entire argument "I agree with you" while you called my views "the most sickning thing you ever heard"
How did you listend to me?



About Obama, I think he has the right ideas how to handlle this situasion, he understands that attacking the Hamas serves nothing but making him stronger and furthring the hatred between the two countries.


Besides that I agree with him that my country MUST make peace with Syria as a first step to stablize this region, peace with Syria will mean taking it out of the Extremist circle. and thus will stop the funding of groups like Hezbollah.


Seeing how things are I see him as the best hope for this region now.

[Pite]

From what I can understand from the present situation, both the sides are in a deadlock. It is suprsignly hard for a conventional military force to achieve complete victory over determined guilerra forces in a city. Look at the Warsaw Uprising when thousands of Polish lightly armed civilians with little to no help, stod against German troops for months until the feeble supplies lasted.

According to this arcticle Palestine (And Arab countries in 1947) and Izrael both have missed opportunities for peace and stability in the region. So it is not only the fault of one side but of both of those sides.

Also as I can understand, IDF has been dropping warning leafelets in Gazan cities warning the civilians about future bomibngs there, well, I've never heard of Hamas dropping leafets saying similar things. More like threats of eradication of the Izraeli nation.

It is also notable that the US has abstained from voting (and probably vetoing) the UN resolution that called for an ceasefire (Source) Also it has to be noted that some attacks that IDF is blamed for in civilian targets might not be IDF's fault but Hamas' since it wants to, by rising the civilian death toll, make:
1) Izrael the evil side of the conflict
2) Make Hamas the good guy who 'resists' the IDF and fights for the Gazan people.

Additionaly both sides have been ignoring the UN and Egipt-French call for cease fire, Hamas still lobs rockets into SoIzrael, IDF is still pushing into Gaza. Both sides highlighted their demands for a possible cease-fire that French and Egiptian diplomats have been planning. Izrael wants a tighter security in the Egipt-Gaza border, to preven arms smuggling, while Hamas demands the end of the economical blokade of the region.

It is possible for a permament resolution to this conflict in my opinion though it was close in Camp David with Pres.Clinton, but similar problems will be encountered when talks about a fully free Palestinian state can be initiated. The rpoblem lies not only with the division of the area in question, but also the practical ones. Hamas' is like Hezbollah supported by Iran (whos government repeadietly told Izrael that it should be wiped out, not a nice thing to say), thus as long as Hamas exists there can be no stable peace, since like all political bodies, Hamas wants power and controll and the only thing that keeps it in there is the 100 year conflict between Izraelites and Arabs in the region.

PS. Dormin, stay safe and stay true to your ideals there mate.

Edited by Pite, 10 January 2009 - 05:26 PM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Look, Yoshi I don't wanna see this thread of mine to be closed too soon 'kay?

Don't worry, your thread won't get closed over something silly like this

Sorry for the extremely off topic post, but I thought that should have been said...give me a warning or whatever. But don't close the topic, Newkerz created something pretty good here. If its necessary, I can delete this post.

You didn't say anything that wasn't true, so no worries about getting any warnings

After all he has said much worse before, to both Nate and myself, and despite practically demanding to be banned once, he's still here

[Nate River]

Besides that I agree with him that my country MUST make peace with Syria as a first step to stablize this region, peace with Syria will mean taking it out of the Extremist circle. and thus will stop the funding of groups like Hezbollah.


Seeing how things are I see him as the best hope for this region now.

While that might nice, it's going to require that the Syrian government first recognize your county. Very few Arab nations have and Syria isn't one of them nor do I anticipate that happening as long as it's a dictatorship run by Bashir Assad. The same goes for Iran who is also funding and supplying these groups.

It's hard to make a genuine and lasting peace when the other party has yet to recognize your right to exist.

The very fact that these nations fund them indicates that they don't have much interest in peace. The President of Iran has talked of sending Isreal back into the sea more than once. He's let loose some pretty "memorable" quotes.

[Codus N]

I've read that in my local newspaper that the AIPAC is the one who's supposed to be blamed for using their influence too much in the Israel-Palestine affairs. Therefore, The U.S has always been slowed down in reaching a truce between Israel-Palestine. It's also said that 85% of jews in America are actually tired of this war, but those AIPAC guys are so selfish. & they won't stop until Palestine is exterminated.

[Dormin]

Dude, the thing about newspapers, the entire press, don't belive a word.

It's not that I give a damn about the AIPAC, they can sink in a river for all I care it's just the fact that it's hard to find a newsource that truly gives an objective view to a matter.

Why? some just because of the editors thinks they know better about whats going on (FOX comes to mind :rolleyes: ) but others just do it to sell more.

What I mean? most of the time the objective view is mostly just... boring. for exmple, a year ago an arab-isreali jumped on a Tractor and started rampaging throughout Jaruslam, killing few people.
The israeli newspapers imedditly started screaming in the headlines "TERORIST ATTACK!" without any reasarch on the matter, why? because Terorist attacks sells more then a case of a broken hearted kid who lost a few bolt in his head and went on a killing spree, which happned to be the truth, but still the israelis looks at the case as a terrorist attack.

Same goes with the Gaza war. what sells more? a newspaper which will deatil every part in what lead to the war? of just posting a big picture of a dead palastinan kid with the words "HOLOCOUST IN GAZA" written in huge formet above the picture? the media sadly, sells more stories then facts. humanizing one faction and de-humanizing the other helps alot in selling these stories.

So I think this goes as well with what you read New, while these AIPAC dosn't help alot in bringing peace, you can't just say everything is their fault. alot of people has to answer for what caused this kitten.

My advice, take every info you get with a pinch of salt.

My point is, that if you wish to have a statment

[Pite]

Same goes with the Gaza war. what sells more? a newspaper which will deatil every part in what lead to the war? of just posting a big picture of a dead palastinan kid with the words "HOLOCOUST IN GAZA" written in huge formet above the picture? the media sadly, sells more stories then facts. humanizing one faction and de-humanizing the other helps alot in selling these stories.

I have to agree that macabre sells better than anything. You don't see US soldiers praised in headlines "A US soldier saves a child, or a US soldier giving out water etc." but last time I saw a US Armyrelated headlines was during the Abu Ghraib tortures where the newspapers showed the soldiers as monsters and villans.

True, it might be bad that they tortured people in Abu Ghraib, but the amount of news that praises US soldiers is minimum and often left to local newspapers if a Soldier ets an honor such as the Silver Star.

[Codus N]

Dormin, I forgot to tell you that was from an "opinion" article. Sorry