67 replies to this topic

[VRWC]

I have to say that I think he's in a bit of a Catch-22. If we take Sai's bingo book to be official for all of Konoha and not just Roots then Sasuke is a missing-nin, meaning he's lost his honor in Konoha. On the other hand he's also too emotionally stunted after all this time to even think about having kids.

So unless he's expecting some sort of open arm welcome from the people of Konoha after he kills Itachi he can't restore his clan's honor. And all the women who were attracted to him in part one have either moved on (Sakura) or seem to have plain forgotten about him (Ino). Poor guy.

[MagusKyros]

It's his own fault if they moved on or forgot about him .

[gamerman_007]

All this restoring honor stuff is just speculation. In the case of what Sasuke said about rebuilding the clan, I really do think he meant to make babies .

Did he really? Cause if he did, wouldn't be looking at TenTen or Temari? If I were him, and I wanted babies, I'd start young.

[Derock]

All this restoring honor stuff is just speculation. In the case of what Sasuke said about rebuilding the clan, I really do think he meant to make babies .

Did he really? Cause if he did, wouldn't be looking at TenTen or Temari? If I were him, and I wanted babies, I'd start young.

At that age...

If you wants babies, wait 'til your're a little older about 16+
At the age of 12, you're still considered yourself as a child.

[narusakulover2468]

Hmmmmmm the only way he could make sure they got the Sharigan would be to do a Sexy no Jutsu version of himself.

[Demonic_Wonder]

More like Kage Bunshin Jutsu, then Sexy no Jutsu, and have a child with...himself? Or he could marry/you know a missing-nin (Got the idea from "training for the job")

[SilverLily]

Hmmmmmm the only way he could make sure they got the Sharigan would be to do a Sexy no Jutsu version of himself.

haha, considering his obsession with his clan, he might actually do that to keep the bloodline pure

Frightening thing is, if he had the ability to hold the jutsu for that long, I'm sure he would.
Sasuke is sooooo creepy. :XD:
I never really liked him much to begin with. Why do so many people like the dark, emo characters? Why??? Naruto is so happy compared to him? Don't people like to smile?

[Enermil]

Frightening thing is, if he had the ability to hold the jutsu for that long, I'm sure he would.
Sasuke is sooooo creepy. :XD:
I never really liked him much to begin with. Why do so many people like the dark, emo characters? Why??? Naruto is so happy compared to him? Don't people like to smile?

Because those characters are so "deep". Naruto has suffered the same as Sasuke. The difference? Naruto choose to look ahead and try to make a future for himself, Sasuke on the other hand remained stuck in his past wich led ultimately to betray his friends seeking Orochimaru for power so he can kill his brother.

[IchaIcha]

"I'm going to kill a certain man AND restore my clan"

Restore honor? Thats sounds pretty sugarcoated. Noooope, I'm sure he meant make babies LOL, but it seems like he threw out his second goal after he left Konoha. Otherwise... taking this in a more literal sense "killing Itachi" comes first.

Because those characters are so "deep". Naruto has suffered the same as Sasuke. The difference? Naruto choose to look ahead and try to make a future for himself, Sasuke on the other hand remained stuck in his past wich led ultimately to betray his friends seeking Orochimaru for power so he can kill his brother.

Hmm.... well, Naruto experienced loniness. Sasuke experienced a killing and then lonliness. Although it sounds kinda of simple it really does pales in comparison. They might've shared a simular feeling of being alone but certainly not the same pain (Sasuke mentions so much about Naruto NOT understanding ties) But whatever, its opinion based.

[Nick Soapdish]

Hmm.... well, Naruto experienced loneliness. Sasuke experienced a killing and then loneliness. Although it sounds kinda of simple it really does pales in comparison. They might've shared a similar feeling of being alone but certainly not the same pain (Sasuke mentions so much about Naruto NOT understanding ties) But whatever, its opinion based.

He does.

But then Naruto talks a lot about his ties, both to Gaara and Sasuke, and he apparently convinces Sasuke that he understands about ties at the VotE (when Sasuke puts on his headband after Naruto says that he wonders if Iruka is what having a father is like and his relationship with Sasuke is like having a brother).

It's not precisely the same pain, but I'd hesitate to say categorically that one suffered more than the other (although I'd give the edge to Naruto in my totally unbiased opinion ) and definitely wouldn't say that one paled in comparison.

I think that Gaara suffered more than either. He got the virtual exile that Naruto had (although he did know the reason at least) coupled with the loss of the only one that treated him like family, except it was by his own hand when that person tried to kill him. Plus, that whole not-sleeping thing and being told that the demon whispering to you is actually the spirit of your mother who wants to protect you. I guess the latter point is more an argument against him remaining sane and explaining away why he went so psycho.

[Nate River]

I agree with you IchaIcha, in that he is no longer pursuing the second goal. Leaving the villgae and especially his willingness to give up his body to Orochimaru demonstrate this. There are no signs that he ever intended to come back to Konoha after he left for sound. So unless he either intended to turn the revived clan into a clan of another village its seems unlikely that even at that point he still had any intention of revining the clan. But even if planned to come back, his willingness to give up his body clearly indicates that the only thing that matter is Itachi's death.

I mostly agree with Nick on the rest.

Gaara seems to gave gotten the worst of both words.

In any case, I don't like comparing suffering because except in the most obvious of cases its totally subjective and a really difficult thing to compare. Second, in the case of Sasuke, it is sometimes used to excuse his current behavior. It explains it, but as Naruto shows does not excuse it. don't think you are doing this IchaIcha, but I've seen it in previous deabtes. One of the difference between his Naruto and Sasuke is that Naruto is rising above that suffering, doing the right thing and protecting others even when he could rely on his past as an excuse not to.

To me that is one thing that makes the comparison interesting, in that Sasuke is also a contrast to Naruto, though not in the same way as Gaara is. Sasuke let's his past control and dominate him rather than moving past it.

Anyway, my personal experience is that Naruto fans think he suffered more while Sasuke fans think Sasuke has. I also agree with Nick that Naruto's suffering does not necessarily pale in comparison. I think you equate the loniless as the same when it really isn't. Rather than rewrite my discussion on the subject I'll just copy what I said at SakuSasu v NaruSaku.

How much one suffers depends on who they are and who they deal with events. Moreover, much of a persons suffering can be self inflicted. True Sasuke is quite lonely, but some of that pain is self-inflicted. Nothing can replace a family like the one he lost, but he had numerous people in the academy that wanted to get to know him and the potential to make friends was there. That he did not was a least in part because of personal choice. While on the other hand, Naruto wanted the friends, but could never do it because of the predispositions of the other children. It was that Naruto was willing to extend, but no one wanted to receive. I suspect Sasuke was closer to the reverse, that there were people wiling to extend, but he was unwilling to receive.

One of the ironies of his character is that he comments on the pain of loniness and seeks revenge for the loss of his family only to abandon his new one later on. Although, I think that after Itachi trounced him in Part 1 it became a lot more personal and that him avenging his family is more of an afterthought or a pretext at this point.

This is not to criticize Sasuke, merely to point out the difference.

The discussion so far brings to mind a fairly common saying: "Tis better to have loved and lost, then to have never loved at all."

I once commented to my fiancee' that I didn't agree with this. Those who have loved know the pain of loss. They have had to break up with someone, which is almost always hard. Or they have had to live through the death of a loved one. On the other hand, those who have not loved do not understand that pain. They are more likely to have suffered the pain of lonliness. However, someone like Sasuke has fully experienced both, while Naruto only knew of the pain of lonliness (now he knows of both).

My error in my disagreement was confusing the amount of pain with the type. Simply because Sasuke has been exposed to both does not mean he has experienced more pain or that he has suffered more. While Naruto did not know the pain of loss and betrayal, its because of the type of loniness he received. For Naruto, its more than just that. Yes, he was lonely, but it was because he was completely rejected by the village. Everyone save Iruka and Sandamine completely rejected him and who knows how long it took before he had Iruka. He was given every reason to hate both the village and himself. I'm sure he was told plently of times he was absolutely worthless. I wouldn't have been suprised to see a Naruto with absolutely no sense of self worth since I'm sure he was told as such plenty of times.

One last thing to point out: you should read this, specifically Chapter 3.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3002546/3/

It's a Naruto/Kurenai fic. However, even if you do like that pairing, the discussion between Naruto and Kurenai is quite enlightening, especially on this topic. The gist of it is this:

Kurenai repremands Naruto when he says he understands the loss of her family. He says he does not have a family to being with and she comments that his lucky in this respect because he had never had to deal with the pain of loss. Naruto's counter is that while what she says is true, she possess the memories of a family who loved her, of all the good times that they had together; memories she will always cherish. Naruto doesn't even have that much.

In other words, Naruto's experience is not just the pain of being alone. It's of being rejected, ostracized, and treated as there was something fundamentally wrong with him without him knowing what that was. Sasuke knew the pain of loss and was alone, but his lonliness is based on absence and personal choice, no rejection. Sasuke wasn't treated as less than garabage for twelve years.

My point then, is that it isn't the same type of lonliness so can't just eqaute them and say Sasuke suffered more because he also has the pain of loss. Both have suffered greatly, and I'm really reluctant to say either has suffered more.

[IchaIcha]

Sorry, I was being a bit general! I didn't mean to make Naruto's pain look small compared to Sasuke's pain (I don't think I even mentioned that Sasuke experienced more suffering than Naruto...?) my words are kind of mixed

Second, in the case of Sasuke, it is sometimes used to excuse his current behavior. It explains it, but as Naruto shows does not excuse it. don't think you are doing this IchaIcha, but I've seen it in previous deabtes. One of the difference between his Naruto and Sasuke is that Naruto is rising above that suffering, doing the right thing and protecting others even when he could rely on his past as an excuse not to.

That is the case, but I believe that Sasuke's past does excuse his current (vile) personality. The environment that a person surrounds is what shapes their character. I mentioned that Naruto has only experienced lonliness while Sasuke has experienced that AND loss (lonliness, in Sasuke's case, speaking the terms you've defined); this is what makes them so different, and why Naruto is much more optimistic than he is, mentioning that they do "pale in comparison". Naruto has not lost anything (despite the current situation in the series), compared to other characters who have experienced loss, you would notice that their personalities are structured with negatives. Naruto, Chouji, Lee--they were alone, rejected, and nobody really accepted them (with ALWAYS the exception of one: Iruka, Shikamaru and Gai in their case), yet they all seem to be a bit more brighter than the characters who have lost somebody important. Neji, Sasuke, Gaara, Tsunade--they all experienced loss and resulted with a dark(er) effect. THis means anybody could have an excuse to hold a vile personality, Nick explained a bit of it with Gaara's insanity. Ohhh... oh man. Naruto fixed Gaara. I guess... the fact that Naruto could even change him means that Sasuke can't pass his behavior as an excuse.

But wait~

I noticed that. They all need Naruto in their life to fix them, don't they? Thats what his character is used for--to make other characters grow or change (b'cause ironically, he can relate to everybody). He defeated Gaara in a fight, he defeated Neji in a fight, he won a bet with Tsunade, which in the end... defeated her, point being; he proved every one of them wrong and they changed b'cause of that. Most likely, those characters would have supported their "wrong" decisions/views if Naruto wasn't around to change them. They needed Naruto. And Naruto didn't defeat Sasuke.

[sorry, I'm just being defensive after reading a few earlier posts... Sasuke isn't that bad ^^]

[Nate River]

It didn't really come of as defensive. And sorry if I imply differently, but I actually like Sasuke's character. My stance is partly rooted in the fear that Kishimoto while write the series in such a way that everyone will just welcome him back with open arms as if it never happened. There are many intersting avenues to take with Sasuke and I fear Kishimoto going with the most basic.

In the beginning of the series, Kishimoto emphasizes those who abandon their friends are worse than trash and that ninja who desert their village are normally hunted down and killed. Sasuke has done both of those. In this sense what Sasuke did was vile. The fact that he has suffered certainly explains WHY he did what he did, but I disagree that it excuses it because saying that makes it sound if what he did was okay and I don't think it does. It would have been wrong with or without the tragic past. The fact that his family was murder by Itachi doesn't make adandoning his friends and home a right. To me, the action was still inappropriate. Perhpas it makes Naruto more willing to forgive the bad act, but it doesn't change the fact that it was still the wrong this to do. Part of it is, it's not as if hasn't received plenty of guidance on the subject. He has obviously forgotten or ignored Kakashi most basic lesson.

In this context, it seems unrealistic that everyone will just act if nothing happened and that everyone is as it was before he left.

Second, I suppose it's tad difficult for me to feel sorry for him when he complains about the loss of family while he simultaneously pushes himself away from a family just obtained.

Still, don't misunderstand. I don't point this out to bash Sasuke or to attempt to justify and negative attitude toward him. I find him interesting and his descent into darkness is one of the reasons why. I agree with others the fact that we got a front row seet for this makes him more interesting then most of the Naruto villians where were just told of the deeds they had done. I don't have anything against his redemption so long as he earns it and the trust he lost or should have lost when he left. Coming back from what he did shouldn't be just as simply as saying "Hi, I'm back now, Itachi's dead, so let's forget this ever happened." To me that would waste his development.

And on Naruto losing to Sasuke, well, I'd just wait a bit. One of the reason I believe Sasuke will be redeemed is because of Naruto. I keep repeating Geno line of Naruto saves because that is a theme that gets repeated. In terms of long-term results has he yet to lose? I doubt Sasuke will be any different. I won;t come out and say it will be a straight up fight (though this seems pretty likely) but he will win Sasuke over just as he has done with everyone else.

[IchaIcha]

In the beginning of the series, Kishimoto emphasizes those who abandon their friends are worse than trash and that ninja who desert their village are normally hunted down and killed. Sasuke has done both of those. In this sense what Sasuke did was vile. The fact that he has suffered certainly explains WHY he did what he did, but I disagree that it excuses it because saying that makes it sound if what he did was okay and I don't think it does. It would have been wrong with or without the tragic past. The fact that his family was murder by Itachi doesn't make adandoning his friends and home a right. To me, the action was still inappropriate. Perhpas it makes Naruto more willing to forgive the bad act, but it doesn't change the fact that it was still the wrong this to do. Part of it is, it's not as if hasn't received plenty of guidance on the subject. He has obviously forgotten or ignored Kakashi most basic lesson.

people have different moral backgrounds- people kill for their religion, it seems wrong to us, but to them it's not. the author gave Sasuke certain qualities and lack of qualtiies: which creates his personality and actions. Acknowleding the circumstances that led to these actions can really change one's view. take a theif for example- this theif stole medicine. he is doing a bad thing. but lets say that he was stealing medicine to save his dying daugter. is he still considered bad? people have their motivation to do things. BUT... I guess you just don't look at things that way.

Second, I suppose it's tad difficult for me to feel sorry for him when he complains about the loss of family while he simultaneously pushes himself away from a family just obtained.

Well... its like asking for an apple but instead you get an orange. The orange might taste better than the apple, but its not the same LOL

Anyway, I think the ending is a bit predictable now (but you can't be so sure).

[Nate River]

I agree that in many aspects it will be predictable. However, in terms of pairings, all camps seem to think so as well, so it seems inevitable that someone will be surprised.

EDIT: Of course, that does not mean its not interesting. The path getting there is really what interests me.

I had a feeling we were going to get into moral theories a bit.

It's not that I don't think that way.

I don't agree on the analogy. The man stealing for medicine is taking on a burden so that someone else may live. In this case his daughter. Sasuke fights for himself, nor is his action a matter that requires immediate action. The man's daughter is sick and will probably die without the medicine, so his options are steal and she lives, don't steal and he dies. One could say the decision not steal is more morally wrong because his refusing to take action so that he may retain his own moral purity rather than sacrfice it for the sake of another. In this case, because he stole for the sake of another it would be considered justified.

I'm not going to get in too deep with that because it's a tad off topic and we could probably go one all day about it. The point is that in Sasuke's case, no one's death is immediate. No will die if he stays. You could argue that Orochimaru may come for it and people would die that way, but Orochimaru would do that anyway and that's not Sasuke's motiviation anyway. By leaving what sacrifice does he make and on who behalf is he acting?

Another difference is that Sasuke doesn't not abandon his friends for the sake of others as the man does the medicine. Sasuke abandons them for himself. He leaves because is unable to put to rest those demons. It's true that the man does something that would be morally wrong (stealing) if considered in total isolation, which might not be considered wrong because of the context in which the act is done.

If you add the context of his past to his current actions, I think that explains his behavior but does not justify it. He left his friends, his home, and plunged a Chidori into the lung of his best friend. In the context of the analogy, let me ask this....would anyone would have died had he not left? Does staying mean not accomplishing his goal as oppposed to simply delaying its completition (as far as I know he sees at a zero-sum, leaving means he has a good chance of accomplishing it, staying means he fails)? And does he make a sacrifice on behalf of others?

My point is that its not the same and I don't think you can make that analogy. I agree with the broader point that when considering the rightness of an action, the conext in which it occured is important. But the simple fact that an action has a context similar to the of Sasuke's does not mean its automatically justified. His past may have been bad, but that doesn't mean he doesn't or shouldn't know any better. In Sasuke's case I don't believe he past excuses his current behavior.

I feel like I'm beating dead horse at this point, but let's use a different analogy. Should we consider the actions of a man who violently assualts another person justified because he himself was beaten as a child? Should he escapte punishment and condemnation for that? In the context of the federal criminal justice system such a thing might be considered cause for a lowering of his punishment (not as solid on the sentencing guidlines as I should be), but that doesn't change the fact that he is punished and the act condenmed. He is granted lieniency not justification.

In Sasuke's case, I think that is all that his pasts grants him. Naruto and Sakura might be more willing to FORGIVE him for what he did because they understand why he did it, but that does not make what he did okay.

EDIT: Looking at the quoted part, I may have come as absolutist in the way I said that. I didn't mean to imply that the context never justifies the action.

[IchaIcha]

woo, thats going a bit specific there. thats like asking "do criminals deserve the death penalty?". lets not go there, yeahh?

My point is that its not the same and I don't think you can make that analogy. I agree with the broader point that when considering the rightness of an action, the conext in which it occured is important. But the simple fact that an action has a context similar to the of Sasuke's does not mean its automatically justified. His past may have been bad, but that doesn't mean he doesn't or shouldn't know any better. In Sasuke's case I don't believe he past excuses his current behavior.

Anything can be compared to a certain level. But~
You're considering the little bits and peices of the two situations. The overall point of the analogy WAS to compare that both the theif and Sasuke have a strong motivation to do something inappropriate. The importance of the decision is the excuse. Sasuke's past (plus a few interactions/events/triggers here and there) drove him to abandon his friends, the dying daughter drove the theif to steal. The only different between the two is that one is doing "wrong" for his own selfish needs.

Ahh This isn't getting us anywhere though B'cause if you think of it, the subject really is opinion-based or rather, depends on the person viewing it. we have our differences ^^

[Nate River]

Sorry, I enjoy ethical discussions and maybe I got a tad carried away. In any case, your right this is something we'll just have to agree to disagree. Whether what he does truly amounts to an excuse or justification is a matter of opinion.

[Miss Soupy]

Yeah, I think it's safe to say even Sasuke returning won't make things like they used to be. Though, you never know, Sasuke could end up doing something really helpful for Konoha and after that he would be allowed back in.

As far as giving up on rebuilding his clan...I don't think he gave up, its just that his priorities lie with killing Itachi and he can't do anything else before that. So anything else he might want to do is put away until after Itachi is dead.