182 replies to this topic

[RidiculouslyBored]

This is a debate? I always thought it was obvious and generally accepted by nearly all fans that Sakura was a tsundere and Hinata was moe. I didn't know there were people that thought otherwise. This is news to me.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I just don't understand what is gained by denying Sakura was an atypical Tsundere or that Hinata is straight up Moe.

Hinata being Moe has everything to do with the audience, and even characters in the series. Sakura telling Naruto he "didn't deserve" Hinata is a moe hallmark.

She presents as weak and therefore other characteers and the audience are inspired to want to protect her. Hence m oe.

[Derock]

Even though Hinata was a moe (a horrible one, in fact), they tried their best to make her "stand out" which killed the franchise.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Even though Hinata was a moe (a horrible one, in fact), they tried their best to make her "stand out" which killed the franchise.

To be fair i find nothing wrong with being "moe" in and of its self. Its the fact that the entire series had to be obliterated for a MOE thats the problem.

[Phantom_999]

i think that is what Derock meant, dear

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I'm not a mind reader, but i brought up that point because sometimes Moe has a habit of coming off derogatory here. So was clarifying that its no a dirty word is all  

[Gravenimage]

Even though Hinata was a moe (a horrible one, in fact), they tried their best to make her "stand out" which killed the franchise.

 

True giving her the spot light, the heroine spot was a horrible mistake because she sucks at it. 

[Derock]

 

True giving her the spot light, the heroine spot was a horrible mistake because she sucks at it. 

 

Not to mention why did that at the last (pun intended) minute when the original series ended. That was the worst stupid marketing mistake as well. And I didn't even study marketing business to realize that was stupid.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Evidence, evidence, evidence. Evidence is being presented, yet brushed aside. No matter how obvious you make it. Anyway, to the topic. I like Hinata. However, the way she stole the spotlight of Sakura angers me. If Kishimoto wanted to make Hinata relevant, switch her and Sakura's roles. Then I would tolerate NaruHina. 
 
I like Sakura because I've seen her grow. She's arguable the most developed character in Naruto. I like seeing characters and ships grow. That's why I favor her over HInata.

I hear that, Winter, but all the potential Hinata coulda had was thrown down the drain, ripped up in the food disposal and shot down to nothingness. She had room to be more after the battle with Neji, but she just wasn't allowed to. Just like fans wouldn't let Sakura move on from Sasuke to Naruto.

Not to mention why did that at the last (pun intended) minute when the original series ended. That was the worst stupid marketing mistake as well. And I didn't even study marketing business to realize that was stupid.

It is, and even now, Studio Pierrot in their stupidity gives Hinata stuff Sakura is known for, BUT it doesn't fix the damn problem with her being the "heroine" now. It just makes things more awkward and much worse...

[Phantom_999]

I'm not a mind reader, but i brought up that point because sometimes Moe has a habit of coming off derogatory here. So was clarifying that its no a dirty word is all

 

Oh we're not using it in a derogatory sense, Hinata is just that one instance of moe taken too far where the story must be altered (RUINED actually) for her to get what she wants. Moes are not bad by any means but they usually are not relevant and have never been PUSHED to be relevant until Hinata "Huge knockers" Hyuga. Again I don't hate the moe archetype, in fact I do like them myself. I HATE Hinata fans simply for being fanatics about Hinata's moe appeal to the point that she is the goddess of the Naruto-verse in their eyes and everything must revolve around her

Edited by Phantom_999, 08 December 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I was more so saying it for the benefit of lurkers. The only reason I can imagine Analyzer having an issue with Hinata being Moe is if she thought being Moe was somehow a bad thing.

It's not that we think Moe is bad, it's that Hinata as a moe ruined everythingm

Hence my explanation. That's all.

[TheFirstEvil100]

 

Oh we're not using it in a derogatory sense, Hinata is just that one instance of moe taken too far where the story must be altered (RUINED actually) for her to get what she wants. Moes are not bad by any means but they usually are not relevant and have never been PUSHED to be relevant until Hinata "Huge knockers" Hyuga. Again I don't hate the moe archetype, in fact I do like them myself. I HATE Hinata fans simply for being fanatics about Hinata's moe appeal to the point that she is the goddess of the Naruto-verse in their eyes and everything must revolve around her

Yeah I agree I mean right now Phantom they are poping up a lot more in fanfiction I mean you wouldn't believe the times a Hinata fanboy goes onto a NaruSaku story, its like you said man they love her cause she is Hinata "Huge knockers" Hyuga who is a slave to Naruto nothing more nothing else.

[RulesofNature]

Funny or Die has this series where they analyze the actions of Zack Morris from Saved by the Bell in an attempt to show how scummy such a person would be in real life.

 

 

It's not hard to do the same thing for Hinata. When you step back and actually look at her, you see a person who is completely willing to sacrifice everyone else in pursuit of the boy she likes who didn't even notice her until he was pressured into being romantically involved with her. People talk about "nice guy" behaviors while Hinata is the exact same thing, so why do we want these behaviors rewarded when people would be calling them disgusting if the genders were reversed?

[Kagomaru]

Yeah I agree I mean right now Phantom they are poping up a lot more in fanfiction I mean you wouldn't believe the times a Hinata fanboy goes onto a NaruSaku story, its like you said man they love her cause she is Hinata "Huge knockers" Hyuga who is a slave to Naruto nothing more nothing else.

You know, I actually just dropped an author because he decided to go into a rant in his author's notes about how he hates all of the stories where Hinata cheated on Naruto because Hinata is pure/perfect/an angel/bleh and said that he would've dropped the show if NaruSaku happened (because again, pairings are all that matter to NaruHina boys/girls) because he finds girls like Sakura and Misty to be scary.  Yes, I imagine that strong, willful, independent women would be frightening to you, you immaculate jellyfish.

 

I find it especially hypocritical because the story I was reading of his contained Rukato (Rika x Takato) in it.  I'm sorry, how does Rika flipping Nonaka fly under your radar of "scary" tsunderes?  And this guy is also a fan of Revy from Black Lagoon, one of the most brutally violent and psychotic Tsunderes in anime.   How can you find Sakura and Misty intimidating but not Rika or freaking REVY? Goddamn double-standards.

[Phantom_999]

I was more so saying it for the benefit of lurkers. The only reason I can imagine Analyzer having an issue with Hinata being Moe is if she thought being Moe was somehow a bad thing.

It's not that we think Moe is bad, it's that Hinata as a moe ruined everythingm

Hence my explanation. That's all.

 

Okay then, no problem dear

Edited by Phantom_999, 09 December 2017 - 02:29 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Even though Hinata was a moe (a horrible one, in fact), they tried their best to make her "stand out" which killed the franchise.

 

 

Not to mention why did that at the last (pun intended) minute when the original series ended. That was the worst stupid marketing mistake as well. And I didn't even study marketing business to realize that was stupid.

There's a reason why the "moe" girl in romance, and especially typical harem anime almost NEVER win in the end unless she REALLY gets a lot of attention and development throughout the story. On the other hand, times when they are allowed to win are able to do a MUCH better job in just a few episodes than Hinatatas got throughout the entire freaking manga.

Like Sae Nakata in Amagami SS - literally FOUR EPISODES (omnibus harem format - 4 episodes per girl with 6 main girls for a 24 episode series) gave her actual believable development compared to Hinatatas.

Or Hifumi Takimoto in New Game! - literally could NOT actually talk to anyone outside of Instant Messenger at first, but by the end of the first series, she was talking to everyone albeit still quietly, and by the end of the second season, she was actually the group leader for their new project and initiating conversation with others.

Both girls having a tiny fraction of the time Naruto had yet had leagues of development in that time by comparison.
 

 

You know, I actually just dropped an author because he decided to go into a rant in his author's notes about how he hates all of the stories where Hinata cheated on Naruto because Hinata is pure/perfect/an angel/bleh and said that he would've dropped the show if NaruSaku happened (because again, pairings are all that matter to NaruHina boys/girls) because he finds girls like Sakura and Misty to be scary.  Yes, I imagine that strong, willful, independent women would be frightening to you, you immaculate jellyfish.

 

I find it especially hypocritical because the story I was reading of his contained Rukato (Rika x Takato) in it.  I'm sorry, how does Rika flipping Nonaka fly under your radar of "scary" tsunderes?  And this guy is also a fan of Revy from Black Lagoon, one of the most brutally violent and psychotic Tsunderes in anime.   How can you find Sakura and Misty intimidating but not Rika or freaking REVY? Goddamn double-standards.

Like I keep saying, such people are usually very hypocritical with obvious double standards - they claim to hate Sakura and yet also love just as "bad" if not "worse" tsunderes in other series', like Kaoru in Rurouni Kenshin, Rin in Fate/stay night, Louise in Zero no Tsukaima, Taiga in Toradora!, Kagome in Inuyasha, and so on.

[DrK]

 

There's a reason why the "moe" girl in romance, and especially typical harem anime almost NEVER win in the end unless she REALLY gets a lot of attention and development throughout the story.

Yep. Dire, series-killing idiocy.

[AHK]

Again, Moe is a very particular concept, typically a character evoked as cute and adorable that you want to protect, often in a big-brotherly or sisterly way.
 
Hinata is not evoked as Moe. She fights as a ninja, she risks her life, and is not evoked as cute or adorable. Himawari is closer to this,  but that wouldn't really work either.
 
There are two aspects to Tsundere. You -must- have both. Simply having a temper, as Sakura does, which Kushina does too, and Tsunade, does not mean by default Tsundere, else, the term becomes functionally meaninglesss. 
 
I'm happy to explain it in more depth if you have further questions.

You would think that the fact that Sakura was trained by a woman whose name is a direct stem from the word in question would be enough to quell this idiotic assertion of yours that Sakura isn’t a tsundere, let alone that she acts the same way as said teacher.

You’re the anime equivalent of a flat-earther, and this stupid argument you keep insisting on regarding Sakura being a tsundere is like how those geniuses call the atmosphere the atmosflat.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

You would think that the fact that Sakura was trained by a woman whose name is a direct stem from the word in question would be enough to quell this idiotic assertion of yours that Sakura isn’t a tsundere, let alone that she acts the same way as said teacher.

You’re the anime equivalent of a flat-earther, and this stupid argument you keep insisting on regarding Sakura being a tsundere is like how those geniuses call the atmosphere the atmosflat.

 

It's OK, AHK, Analyzer's been banned, but yeah, she could so be like that. @_@

[James S Cassidy]

 

There's a reason why the "moe" girl in romance, and especially typical harem anime almost NEVER win in the end unless she REALLY gets a lot of attention and development throughout the story. On the other hand, times when they are allowed to win are able to do a MUCH better job in just a few episodes than Hinatatas got throughout the entire freaking manga.

Like Sae Nakata in Amagami SS - literally FOUR EPISODES (omnibus harem format - 4 episodes per girl with 6 main girls for a 24 episode series) gave her actual believable development compared to Hinatatas

I find that Moe girls were great for advertisement, but horrible for real relationships. What I mean is, it is cute at first impression to have a moe character start out as one, but in the end people are alot more attracted to self-reliant and confident girls. Girls who are always shy, always pout, and always stay quiet and never speaking up gets boring and irritating. Sometimes it is annoying because the guy ends up feeling like he is pulling weight for himself and her when he would rather much pull the weight together. The moe girls tend to start out with everyone else making the first move.

Now can a girl be moe AND have self-confidence? Absolutly, but this is not what Hinata became. She is always too shy or too naive. She is always so apprehensive and always holding back even if she were capable of more. This becomes a huge problem at times. I mean is Naruto supposed to save her life everytime? Is Sakura always going to have to heal her? Is she always going to fail to the point that someone else has to take the blunt of it, but she receives all the credit? No. This is not the say that people don't have their limits, mind you, but Hinata never seems to be able to do anything and everything is a major limit to her. She couldn't protect Naruto at all, she couldn't take care of him when he needed it the most, and she never even could take of herself. Tasks that should be so simple for anyone else is such a huge challenge to her. Heck, even getting Naruto to notice her was a massive challenge and required Sakura, Shikamaru, Toneri, and a genjutsu to get Naruto to "see" her. That's pretty sad.

This isn't jsut for females either....some males are like this as well...heck, I used to be one of them, but that was because I never had confidence in myself. I didn't live in a household that supported my confidene and instead kept beating me down. I can't tell you how many times people kep telling me how much smarter than me they are or how much better they are all because they had something I didn't. And this ranged from minor things to major things.

I can understand starting from a low point and going higher, but to constantly stay in that low point and only doing JUST enough until you get what you want....it's pathetic. As soon as Naruto was hers, HInata just gave up on everything else. Her clan? No thanks, she has Naruto. Her training? Gave that up because since she has Naruto who is so strong, she doesn't need to be strong anymore. Her family? Nah, she can't argue with Naruto because she don't want to drive him away. She gave up everything because she got what she wanted and nothing else mattered. She is a satelite character

Edited by James S Cassidy, 09 December 2017 - 05:32 PM.