62 replies to this topic

[Nick Soapdish]

This is something that I posted over at NF, but there's no reason you guys wouldn't want to see it as well.

This isn't strictly NaruSaku, but it's a pet peeve of mine from the pairing debates. It's more of a counterargument against one of the anti-NaruSaku complaints and the Sakura bashing. It's not just an opinion of anti-NaruSaku fans to be fair. I've heard it voiced by some eventual fans of NaruSaku.

It's the assertation that the development in Naruto and Sakura's relationship is only based around Sasuke and/or only happened after Sasuke left. Clearly that isn't true from Naruto's perspective because he's had a crush on her since forever. But a relationship depends on the perceptions and actions of two and I think that it is also untrue from Sakura's perspective.

Sakura doesn't pay as much attention to Naruto as she does to Sasuke, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't pay any attention to him. She notices him and I believe that most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure.

I'm a bit out of practice with LAPs, but this one is fairly straightforward since I'm just recounting events from the manga. I'll simply be listing a lot of events that I think help demonstrate that. It'll make the post a bit dry because I'm not going into much explanation about each event since I think they're self-explanatory. Many of the events actually show Sakura's misconceptions, but I think those are important as well because it's when she's realizing that they're misconceptions so when we see her treating him differently and not making those misconceptions, it's not just coming out of nowhere. The examples of how she starts feeling differently aren't unique to Naruto either. Naruto isn't the only person that she realizes her first impressions are wrong about and these arguments aren't intended as evidence of romantic feelings. They are merely intended to say that she didn't just abuse and ignore him in the beginning. It's not a comprehensive list of their interaction and her reactions to him, but I'm trying to pick out most of it.

It begins in chapter 3, her introduction. In the beginning of the chapter, she ignores him, then beats him up for the "kiss", and then inadvertently dismisses him to his face when talking to "Sasuke". But at the end of the chapter, Sasuke tells her that being without parents isn't all that Sakura thinks that it is and Sakura starts to rethink her position on Naruto and decides to try being nicer to him. She immediately backslides on that in the next chapter when she gets flustered trying to talk about her dream and skips ahead to what she hates - Naruto.

In chapter 5 during the bell test, she's initially impressed with Naruto's strategy and techniques when he uses the kage bunshin to flank Kakashi. And then thinks that he looks uncool when Kakashi is able to kawarimi his way out of that.

In chapter 13, she's impressed with Naruto's guts in retrieving the hitae-ite. There are varying translations, but it's gotta be at least admiration that she's feeling.

Chapter 18 has Team 7 learning tree-climbing. At one point, Sakura is worn out and is noticing how Naruto hasn't made any progress. She sees Naruto stop and thinks to himself that this is where he gives up. Instead, he surprises her by walking over to her and asks for advice on how she was able to do it so easily. So she begins to learn about his determination in a new manner from his determination to regain the headband. She's not necessarily impressed by it though. In chapter 21, she speaks disparagingly about Naruto's efforts to train all night, calling him simple because he was inspired by that story about Kaizu and expressing a decided lack of concern about his safety. Both of those are quickly reversed when she sees how much progress he's made and is amazed. And then gets freaked out twice by Naruto falling, once as a gag and then once due to chakra exhaustion.

In chapter 34, she's supporting Naruto as they return from a mission and she reproves himself for overextending himself again. It's just an act of kindness that one would expect from a teammate, but she is the one giving it, contrary to what some might expect. In chapter 29, she's looking out for her teammate again when she thinks that he's intimidated by all the genin in the chuunin exam and starts to try and pep him up. (I think that she's actually correct and he is feeling insecure, but he cheers himself up the best way that he knows how - with bravado.)

I think that the scene in chapter 43 is a big one and I could probably write a whole post on it. It's the tenth question of the exam. If any member of the team chooses not to take the question, they fail the exam ... along with their teammates. But if they take the question and fail, they are forever barred from advancing to chuunin. Ibiki never says as much but since the tests are a team effort, presumably the genin can assume that if one attempts the tenth question and fails, the whole team still fails that test, even if the others got it right. However, that is a moot point because we see (most of) Naruto's thoughts and see all of Sakura's thought process and it never occurs to either of them. Sakura is confident that she can answer the question, just as she has answered all of the others. So she immediately decides that she's not going to be giving up. Then she starts looking at Naruto. She had quickly realized that a written test was the worst possible kind of test for Naruto and he didn't stand much of a chance of getting the answers right because they were way too difficult for most genin. So she's looking at Naruto and waiting for him to give up. And waiting. And waiting. She starts thinking about his stupid impossible dream to become Hokage and doesn't want to see it die. So she decides to give up herself and starts to raise her hand only to have Naruto raise his own and proclaim his intentions to take the test, dispelling his own doubts and those of everybody else in his own inimitable way. Despite her earlier decision, she respects Naruto's decision and regards his outburst with some admiration and even affection. "He's that kind of idiot."

Incidentally, Naruto and Sakura were apparently the only two that didn't figure out the underneath the underneath for either component of the first exam.

Part two of the chuunin exam has some more examples of Sakura's developing esteem for Naruto and her not ignoring him all the time. In chapter 48, she's cheering him on for his moves against Orochimaru's giant snake and seems pretty impressed by him. In chapter 49, she gives him a backhanded compliment (calling him clumsy, but not a coward) when trying to convince Sasuke to get off his duff and actually fight Orochimaru. She also saves him from falling while Sasuke is zoned.

In chapter 60, we discover that she thinks enough of his opinions and has enough faith in him to be persuaded into opening the scroll so that they'd be able to fake a second scroll. Obviously, it would've been a mistake, but she doesn't just laugh off his suggestion because he's stupid. I think that it's also worth noting that she doesn't attempt to deflect the blame to Naruto, even partially, either of the times that Sasuke reproves them. In chapter 62 thru 63, she cheers him on in the fight against the Grass nins and compliments him on his tactics (or his execution of the tactics that they came up with together).

In chapter 74, after her fight with Ino, Sakura thanks Naruto for cheering her on, acknowledging his support and how it helped her win. The next few chapters are where Kishi tries to make sure that the readers have picked up on what I'm arguing right now. At the beginning of the fight against Kiba when it looks like Naruto has lost embarrassingly, she glowers at Kakashi until he winks and then she winks back. Then we get a two-page retrospective about how Sakura used to think that Naruto was a fool and full of hot air ... and her acknowledging that she was wrong. Those pages recapture some of the scenes that I mentioned as well as a few others (mostly the ones illustrating what would back up her initial opinion). Throughout the fight, she loudly cheers him on - both complimenting him when he's made a good move and encouraging him when he's been knocked down. At the end of the fight, she's exulting in how good his victory made her feel.

And this pretty much says it all. Or at least enough.

Sakura has learned and acknowledged how hard he trains and his determination to succeed. She's learned about his pain from loneliness. She's acknowledged him as a good ninja and said as much to him (perhaps a bit indirectly when saying that he better win against Kiba). She's acknowledged that his dreams are important to her and attempted to support them and she's acknowledged that he's supportive of her as well.
All together, that sounds like a pretty solid friendship to me.

It's not comprehensive, nor is it listing all of what Sakura learns about Naruto. She learns about all of these later to fuller extents, but at least she grasps the basics.

[Vespar]

An excellent, well thought-out post, Nick!
Though anime-Sakura looks to be tougher on Naruto though, but that isn't her fault. That's terrible stereo-typical director influence! >_>

[Derock]

This is something that I posted over at NF, but there's no reason you guys wouldn't want to see it as well.

This isn't strictly NaruSaku, but it's a pet peeve of mine from the pairing debates. It's more of a counterargument against one of the anti-NaruSaku complaints and the Sakura bashing. It's not just an opinion of anti-NaruSaku fans to be fair. I've heard it voiced by some eventual fans of NaruSaku.

It's the assertation that the development in Naruto and Sakura's relationship is only based around Sasuke and/or only happened after Sasuke left. Clearly that isn't true from Naruto's perspective because he's had a crush on her since forever. But a relationship depends on the perceptions and actions of two and I think that it is also untrue from Sakura's perspective.

Sakura doesn't pay as much attention to Naruto as she does to Sasuke, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't pay any attention to him. She notices him and I believe that most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure.

I'm a bit out of practice with LAPs, but this one is fairly straightforward since I'm just recounting events from the manga. I'll simply be listing a lot of events that I think help demonstrate that. It'll make the post a bit dry because I'm not going into much explanation about each event since I think they're self-explanatory. Many of the events actually show Sakura's misconceptions, but I think those are important as well because it's when she's realizing that they're misconceptions so when we see her treating him differently and not making those misconceptions, it's not just coming out of nowhere. The examples of how she starts feeling differently aren't unique to Naruto either. Naruto isn't the only person that she realizes her first impressions are wrong about and these arguments aren't intended as evidence of romantic feelings. They are merely intended to say that she didn't just abuse and ignore him in the beginning. It's not a comprehensive list of their interaction and her reactions to him, but I'm trying to pick out most of it.

It begins in chapter 3, her introduction. In the beginning of the chapter, she ignores him, then beats him up for the "kiss", and then inadvertently dismisses him to his face when talking to "Sasuke". But at the end of the chapter, Sasuke tells her that being without parents isn't all that Sakura thinks that it is and Sakura starts to rethink her position on Naruto and decides to try being nicer to him. She immediately backslides on that in the next chapter when she gets flustered trying to talk about her dream and skips ahead to what she hates - Naruto.

In chapter 5 during the bell test, she's initially impressed with Naruto's strategy and techniques when he uses the kage bunshin to flank Kakashi. And then thinks that he looks uncool when Kakashi is able to kawarimi his way out of that.

In chapter 13, she's impressed with Naruto's guts in retrieving the hitae-ite. There are varying translations, but it's gotta be at least admiration that she's feeling.

Chapter 18 has Team 7 learning tree-climbing. At one point, Sakura is worn out and is noticing how Naruto hasn't made any progress. She sees Naruto stop and thinks to himself that this is where he gives up. Instead, he surprises her by walking over to her and asks for advice on how she was able to do it so easily. So she begins to learn about his determination in a new manner from his determination to regain the headband. She's not necessarily impressed by it though. In chapter 21, she speaks disparagingly about Naruto's efforts to train all night, calling him simple because he was inspired by that story about Kaizu and expressing a decided lack of concern about his safety. Both of those are quickly reversed when she sees how much progress he's made and is amazed. And then gets freaked out twice by Naruto falling, once as a gag and then once due to chakra exhaustion.

In chapter 34, she's supporting Naruto as they return from a mission and she reproves himself for overextending himself again. It's just an act of kindness that one would expect from a teammate, but she is the one giving it, contrary to what some might expect. In chapter 29, she's looking out for her teammate again when she thinks that he's intimidated by all the genin in the chuunin exam and starts to try and pep him up. (I think that she's actually correct and he is feeling insecure, but he cheers himself up the best way that he knows how - with bravado.)

I think that the scene in chapter 43 is a big one and I could probably write a whole post on it. It's the tenth question of the exam. If any member of the team chooses not to take the question, they fail the exam ... along with their teammates. But if they take the question and fail, they are forever barred from advancing to chuunin. Ibiki never says as much but since the tests are a team effort, presumably the genin can assume that if one attempts the tenth question and fails, the whole team still fails that test, even if the others got it right. However, that is a moot point because we see (most of) Naruto's thoughts and see all of Sakura's thought process and it never occurs to either of them. Sakura is confident that she can answer the question, just as she has answered all of the others. So she immediately decides that she's not going to be giving up. Then she starts looking at Naruto. She had quickly realized that a written test was the worst possible kind of test for Naruto and he didn't stand much of a chance of getting the answers right because they were way too difficult for most genin. So she's looking at Naruto and waiting for him to give up. And waiting. And waiting. She starts thinking about his stupid impossible dream to become Hokage and doesn't want to see it die. So she decides to give up herself and starts to raise her hand only to have Naruto raise his own and proclaim his intentions to take the test, dispelling his own doubts and those of everybody else in his own inimitable way. Despite her earlier decision, she respects Naruto's decision and regards his outburst with some admiration and even affection. "He's that kind of idiot."

Incidentally, Naruto and Sakura were apparently the only two that didn't figure out the underneath the underneath for either component of the first exam.

Part two of the chuunin exam has some more examples of Sakura's developing esteem for Naruto and her not ignoring him all the time. In chapter 48, she's cheering him on for his moves against Orochimaru's giant snake and seems pretty impressed by him. In chapter 49, she gives him a backhanded compliment (calling him clumsy, but not a coward) when trying to convince Sasuke to get off his duff and actually fight Orochimaru. She also saves him from falling while Sasuke is zoned.

In chapter 60, we discover that she thinks enough of his opinions and has enough faith in him to be persuaded into opening the scroll so that they'd be able to fake a second scroll. Obviously, it would've been a mistake, but she doesn't just laugh off his suggestion because he's stupid. I think that it's also worth noting that she doesn't attempt to deflect the blame to Naruto, even partially, either of the times that Sasuke reproves them. In chapter 62 thru 63, she cheers him on in the fight against the Grass nins and compliments him on his tactics (or his execution of the tactics that they came up with together).

In chapter 74, after her fight with Ino, Sakura thanks Naruto for cheering her on, acknowledging his support and how it helped her win. The next few chapters are where Kishi tries to make sure that the readers have picked up on what I'm arguing right now. At the beginning of the fight against Kiba when it looks like Naruto has lost embarrassingly, she glowers at Kakashi until he winks and then she winks back. Then we get a two-page retrospective about how Sakura used to think that Naruto was a fool and full of hat air ... and her acknowledging that she was wrong. Those pages recapture some of the scenes that I mentioned as well as a few others (mostly the ones illustrating what would back up her initial opinion). Throughout the fight, she loudly cheers him on - both complimenting him when he's made a good move and encouraging him when he's been knocked down. At the end of the fight, she's exulting in how good his victory made her feel.

And this pretty much says it all. Or at least enough.

Sakura has learned and acknowledged how hard he trains and his determination to succeed. She's learned about his pain from loneliness. She's acknowledged him as a good ninja and said as much to him (perhaps a bit indirectly when saying that he better win against Kiba). She's acknowledged that his dreams are important to her and attempted to support them and she's acknowledged that he's supportive of her as well.
All together, that sounds like a pretty solid friendship to me.

It's not comprehensive, nor is it listing all of what Sakura learns about Naruto. She learns about all of these later to fuller extents, but at least she grasps the basics.

Very well said, Nick. Though, there's some more of this. After Naruto won against Neji in the third part of the exam, I read the scene that Sakura mentally thought as Naruto getting stronger, she became jeolous (a little) of his ninja skills as well.

[kawarimi]

Nice LAP. I pretty much agree with everything, and on the few things I don't, they're pretty minor and not worth arguing over. :thumbs:

But I agree, there has been development from initial strong dislike/annoyance to appreciation/understanding from Sakura to Naruto since the beginning (although of course Naruto still does things that annoy her, I doubt that would ever change XD). One of my favorite parts in the manga is when Sakura starts to raise her hand to protect Naruto's "stupid impossible dream" during the written exam.

[Coupe]

Amen to that Nick.

[Nick Soapdish]

Nice LAP. I pretty much agree with everything, and on the few things I don't, they're pretty minor and not worth arguing over. :thumbs:

But I agree, there has been development from initial strong dislike/annoyance to appreciation/understanding from Sakura to Naruto since the beginning (although of course Naruto still does things that annoy her, I doubt that would ever change XD). One of my favorite parts in the manga is when Sakura starts to raise her hand to protect Naruto's "stupid impossible dream" during the written exam.

Nuts. What's disputable?

I was trying to avoid making any interpretations of the scenes except the most obvious. I left out a bunch of scenes that would've required a bit of debate to make my case. (I was pretty close to the character limit anyway. I had to stick the bit about Sakura abusing Naruto into a second post.)

[jigglychu]

Great post, Nick. You've quantified what I experienced while going through part 1 into a solid post with solid facts backing up your observations. Hats off to you!

[kawarimi]

Nuts. What's disputable?

I was trying to avoid making any interpretations of the scenes except the most obvious. I left out a bunch of scenes that would've required a bit of debate to make my case. (I was pretty close to the character limit anyway. I had to stick the bit about Sakura abusing Naruto into a second post.)

You know what, I'd have to go back and read it. I was going off of my memory from seeing it at NF the other day. I think it had to do with the written exam, and then maybe one other tiny detail, but I can't remember. Nothing that changes the point you're trying to make, just little things.

Well....there is one thing that I see looking over it quickly - I disagree that Naruto is filled with "hat" air.

[Illjwamh]

A well-written post, I must say. And I agree with it completely. One of my favorite aspects of this manga is the way Naruto manages to win over just about everybody he meets. Sakura was one of the toughest cases to start with, but he also managed to win her over more completely than just about anybody else.

[Ani]

Nick, this was great. You deserve a basket of cookies.

A well-written post, I must say. And I agree with it completely. One of my favorite aspects of this manga is the way Naruto manages to win over just about everybody he meets. Sakura was one of the toughest cases to start with, but he also managed to win her over more completely than just about anybody else.

Agreed.

[Nick Soapdish]

You know what, I'd have to go back and read it. I was going off of my memory from seeing it at NF the other day. I think it had to do with the written exam, and then maybe one other tiny detail, but I can't remember. Nothing that changes the point you're trying to make, just little things.

Well....there is one thing that I see looking over it quickly - I disagree that Naruto is filled with "hat" air.

"Hat air" is an euphemism for his desire to become Hokage and get the big hat.

Thanks for the compliments about the post and please excuse my gracelessness for immediately jumping to the quibble.

[narutokage]

Nice one Nick. That was a very nice read and I totally agree with you. One of the main things I like about Naruto is the change that Sakura's attitude went through. From saying that she disliked Naruto to being his best friend. It doesn't get better than this. Very realistic portrayal of Sakura's feelings, which changed from beginning till now shows the depth that Kishi-sensei added to Naruto even though many don't see it.

[Mizura]

Excellent! Indeed, the relationship between Naruto and Sakura has been developing since part I. It was already at a pretty good stage during the chuunin exams.

People tend to ignore that!

[shiroihato]

Good posy! you got what I was trying to say yesterday xpressed alot better than i did.

[Nick Soapdish]

Thanks.

I'd gotten really tired of that argument over at NF so I posted it in the fanclub and stuck it in my sig. But I haven't done much debating since then so it's been for naught in that respect.

[SkyStrider]

I'm sorry, Nick, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on this score. In fact, I'm also going to have to disagree with this entire perception that Naruto and Sakura had a really nice, self-built, understanding two-way friendship thing going before the Sasuke retrieval arc. I know people here would be tempted to believe that this is the case, for various reasons (it supports the ship, it makes it seem as though Sakura really wasn't as bad as she looked, etc.), but in my mind, there are way too many things that Sakura has done/said/believed for me to agree with that view.

First of all, the Naruto/Sakura "relationship" (for lack of a better word) did in fact only begin because of Sasuke. Or at least, the two-way part of it did. The absolute fact of the matter is, Sakura only began to try to be nicer to Naruto because her idol and crush explicitly told her that her perception of Naruto (and by extension, people like Sasuke himself) "annoyed" him, with the underlying feeling that it furthermore disgusted him. And it was only AFTER Sasuke told her this that Sakura even considered being nicer to Naruto.

There is simply no escaping this, people. This is an absolute fact proved in black and white by Chapter 3 of the Naruto manga. Without Sasuke's strong expressions of annoyance and disgust at Sakura's views on Naruto and his loneliness, Sakura's epiphany that she should try to be nicer to Naruto, and by extension, their relationship as it is now, would simply not have come to be. Saddening? Perhaps. But it is what it is, and there is nothing that Sakura has or can possibly do in the future that can change that.

Secondly, the statement that "most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure" is, if you'll forgive my candor, one of the most blatantly false assertions I have ever seen as regards to this manga. Why? Check out the famous "departure" scene (Chapter 181). Let's break down what Sakura says here, point by point, and see what it really means.

-Sakura (to Sasuke): "Right now, I know your pain...!! I may have friends and family... but if you were to leave... to me... to me... I would be just as alone as you..."

There is simply no mistaking Sakura's words or intent here. At this advanced point in time (after the Wave mission, after the Chuunin exams, after the Sand/Sound invasion, and after the Akatsuki confrontation), Sakura still thinks that compared to Sasuke, her teammates, her friends, and her family matter so little to her that even if she still has them (and not Sasuke), she would still feel as if she were alone. What does this mean and imply for Naruto? It's nothing more or less than this: Sakura's basically telling Sasuke that compared with him, Naruto matters so little to her as a person/friend/teammate that he might as well not even exist for all she would care.

Is this how Sakura sees Naruto now? I should hope no one thinks so, certainly not after the "promise of a lifetime" scene, and certainly not after her blatant declaration in Chapter 296 to Naruto that "she'll save Sasuke for him"

But wait! There's more.

- Again from the departure scene, we have Sakura basically telling Sasuke that she's so fond of him it hurts, and would do anything for him, anything to get him to stay. In fact, she would even find some way to help him in his revenge.

Again, we have Sakura making some pretty deep declarations here. First, she says that she's "fond of Sasuke very, very much" (I don't think she says she "loves" him, given that it's been proven that she never uses the saying "aikitteneru" in the manga, which is the supreme expression of "love" in the Japanese language, and what she would say if she did indeed declare love). This is quite a big declaration, and one that she, sadly, has yet to give Naruto an equivalent to (and probably won’t until the very end). But that's not anywhere as key as what she says next: that she'll do anything for Sasuke, and would even find some way to help him in his revenge. This declaration right here already speaks of a difference in the relationship between Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke between parts 1 and 2. In this scene, Sakura says she's all willing to help Sasuke in his revenge, and try her best to do something. If this were unchanged going into part 2, we wouldn't have Sakura telling Naruto that "next time, they'll bring Sasuke back together". Furthermore, we wouldn't have Sakura asking Tsunade to train her for BOTH Naruto and Sasuke's sakes, or Sakura and Naruto going on missions to try and to bring back Sasuke to Konoha, or Sakura and Naruto trying to capture Itachi just so they can get to Sasuke. Instead, we would have Sakura asking Tsunade to train her so she can eventually help Sasuke fight Itachi, or Sakura urging Naruto to go after Akatsuki and Itachi. The latter set would fit with her thoughts of "helping Sasuke with his revenge", no matter the cost to anyone else. The former set is what Sakura really wants to do in part 2. I'm pretty sure you guys can see the difference.

But wait, I've yet to get to the biggest part of all.

- Sakura requesting that Sasuke take her with him to Sound if he won't stay in Konoha. "So please, stay with me... or take me with you if you can't stay here..."

To me, it's utterly astounding just how much Sakura is saying here in regards to how highly she regards Sasuke in comparison to everyone else. At that point, she doesn't care enough about her family, teammates (of which Naruto happens to be one), or friends enough to be worried about abandoning her family, or about betraying her village, her team, and her friends. Nor would she apparently mind being a member of Orochimaru's Sound village.

So in sum, she wouldn't mind serving under the vilest blood traitor Konoha has ever known if it would be for Sasuke's sake. She wouldn't mind becoming a member of a ruthless, amoral village that pillaged and destroyed her home, wounded her teammates, killed her Hokage (along with who knows how may of her fellow ninja) and even tried to kill her multiple times, if it meant she could be with Sasuke. Furthermore, she has to know that the Sound would one day return to Konoha to finish the job. So in going to them, she's also saying that she would not only be willing to betray everyone in her life, but also fight against her former home, her former Konoha ninja, and Naruto himself if it came to it. And she would do it all if it meant she'd be at Sasuke's side.

Obviously, Sakura's changed since then. She's certainly not going to be going to the Sound anytime soon, and she won't be betraying anyone. And I doubt she'd even consider hurting anyone from Konoha if Sasuke asked her to. But still, there's simply no denying that she would have been perfectly willing to do so as of Chapter 181. Hell, we even get a possibility of this back in the bell test in Chapter 8, when Kakashi mock-threatens Sakura with killing Sasuke unless she kills Naruto. Notice her shock (which is only relieved whan Kakashi removes the kunai from Sasuke's neck), and the fact that she can't keep her eyes off Sasuke, to where she never looks at Naruto? That, along with the truth that Sakura never tried to help Naruto during the bell test instead choosing to concentrate on Sasuke, tells me just how little she regarded Naruto during the entire thing, and how the only thing she ever cared about was Sasuke.

So if Sakura apparently cared so little for Naruto that his existence in her life still wouldn't make her feel any less lonely than Sasuke feels (as of her statements in the departure scene), how do we get to the point where she cares for him enough to where she's realizing he's always understood her, or that she's telling him that they'll bring Sasuke back together, or healing him from his injuries, or even that she'll save Sasuke for him? Simple. The "promise of a lifetime" scene. I'm not going to elaborate on this scene right now, seeing how it's a staple of NaruSaku and therefore been beat to death here (though if you want I can do that another time), but I will say this much: this is the point where Sakura truly begins to appreciate Naruto for what he really is. Suddenly, she sees that he's always understood her (and tried to), and that he's always been there for her. Through her realizations as to the meaning of this scene and what came of it, she begins to understand exactly what he's willing to do for her happiness. In short, this is the point in the manga where Sakura truly and willingly begins to welcome Naruto into her heart, both as a friend and potentially as something more.

To sum it all up (and this is directed specifically at Nick Soapdish, among others), lets compare Sakura's feelings for Naruto before Sasuke's departure, and afterwards.

Before departure:

- She belittles his orphan past, and is absolutely heartless in her evaluations of it's impact on him (Chapter 3). Furthermore, she only bothers to try and change her views after Sasuke shows his annoyance/disgust.

- She believes that the only thing Naruto is good for is in getting in the way of the love life she wishes to have. Furthermore, that he actually takes pleasure in seeing her struggle and suffer, and isn't capable of understanding her in any way (Chapter 3)

- She obviously doesn't even bother to consider that he could do anything to help either herself or Sasuke in the bell test, to where Kakashi berates her by saying "Instead of Naruto, who was right next to you... You were only thinking about Sasuke, who was far away." (Chapter 8)

- She never has any belief that he can do anything against any of their enemies during the Wave arc. In every battle they fight together, she expresses her belief that Naruto is an idiot to try and fight, or that he's going to quit (or that he should quit). In fact, she even makes light of the fact that he may have died in his training during the Wave arc. Furthermore, it takes some pretty amazing feats to convince her otherwise. Basically, she thinks that Naruto has to prove himself somehow before she should even consider paying him any mind, let alone give him any respect. And even after the Wave arc, she still somewhat holds on to this philosophy (though she does tone it down), most notably during the first test (where she flat out calls Naruto's Hokage aspirations an "impossible dream" in her head, even as she doesn't realize why she doesn't want to crush it) and the aftermath of the battle against Gaara, where she quickly tries to insist that there is no possible way that Naruto could have saved her, and only accepts thoughts to the contrary when Sasuke, despite his pride, keeps insisting he did). In short, Sakura never believes in Naruto on her own inclinations. She is forced into doing it by Sasuke's remarks or by continuous acts of Naruto does that go against her expectations.

- Even after seeing what he's done throughout the Wave Arc, she still believes that Naruto is a hindrance to the team, or she's better than Naruto, to where she feels insulted when Sasuke thinks she's the same as or worse than Naruto as a ninja. And she still insists on this even after Naruto saves them in the forest of death, in saying that Naruto "gets in the way".

- As compared to Sasuke, she apparently cares so little for and about Naruto that she believes his presence in her life won't do anything to affect the "loneliness" she'll have if Sasuke were to leave, a loneliness that implies being COMPLETELY alone. In short, with Sasuke gone, Naruto might as well not even exist for all she would care.

After departure:

- She finally comes to the realization that, contrary to what she previously believed, Naruto always understood her, and furthermore always made an effort to wherever he couldn't (Chapter 183).

- She, for the first time in the manga, clearly and openly expresses her belief in Naruto's ability to get a job done (when she tells him that he's the only person she believes and trusts to bring Sasuke back).

- She finally begins to acknowledge him as being as much a part of Team 7 as Sasuke, and moreover just as important in her heart when she tells Naruto they'll bring Sasuke back together and asks Tsunade to train her (see Chapter 236, especially the picture of Sakura with Naruto and Sasuke in the background). Compare this with her descriptions of Team 7 to Sasuke at the departure scene, where she says "You and me... along with Naruto and Kakashi-sensei".

- She begins to care for him to the point where she even offers to "save Sasuke for him", after seeing just how much he's willing to give up in order to keep his promise for her.

In summary, the assertion that Naruto and Sakura's relationship has most of their development before Sasuke's leaving is, given all this evidence to the contrary, and absolute falsehood. If anything, it had nearly all of it's development AFTERWARDS. Beforehand, Sakura did not appreciate him for the person he was, nor did she show him the respect his abilities and achievements deserved. Furthermore, she was more than willing to dismiss his dreams as impossible and think him a fool and idiot for sticking by them. And above all, she considered him to be so unimportant to her that she would think of herself as being totally lonely without Sasuke in her life, to where she'd willingly betray Naruto and their village to be allied with one of his greatest enemies. That, Nick, altogether does NOT sound like a solid friendship to me. It sounds like an acquaintance built on one-sided expressions from one party and reluctantly grudging concessions from the other that first require that the former party prove themselves continuously at every turn. What is a solid friendship to me? A relationship with trust on both ends, with acknowledgement and appreciation for what each other are, and the knowledge that each person is capable of understanding the other. A relationship that does not require one person constantly having to prove himself to the other before gaining respect, appreciation, or trust. A relationship in which one person should not believe that the other is worth so little to them that they would feel lonely regardless of whether the other person was there or not. A relationship in which a person should never consider betraying the other under ANY circumstances. That is exactly what Naruto and Sakura have in Part 2 and that is what sounds like a solid friendship to me. And I certainly hope that the evidence I've given proves that this willing change in relations was far from a gradual thing stemming from early in Part 1; indeed, that it only wholeheartedly came to be after Sasuke left Konoha, and not a moment before. After all, what kind of "friend" would you think you were if the person you're friends with would feel absolutely lonely regardless of whether you were there or not? Or more to the point, how can you possibly consider someone to be your friend if you think you'd be absolutely lonely regardless of whether they're there for you or not?!? And should a person even consider themselves as a friend of someone if they'd be so willing to betray them as quickly as that?!?!?!?

I'm sorry if this is a bit harsh and long-winded, but I badly needed to get this off my chest. And forgive me if this sounds too presumptuous of me, but somebody needs to call a spade a spade here in regards to this issue. The fact that Naruto and Sakura have bettered their relations in Part 2 does not mean we should disregard or make light of what happened between them in Part 1. We should acknowledge it for exactly what it is, and appreciate how far their relationship has come up to this point. As a devout NaruSaku fan, I know I do.

SkyStrider

[Arcticfox]

Nick way to hit the nail on the head Buddy

[MagusKyros]

I'm sorry, Nick, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on this score. In fact, I'm also going to have to disagree with this entire perception that Naruto and Sakura had a really nice, self-built, understanding two-way friendship thing going before the Sasuke retrieval arc. I know people here would be tempted to believe that this is the case, for various reasons (it supports the ship, it makes it seem as though Sakura really wasn't as bad as she looked, etc.), but in my mind, there are way too many things that Sakura has done/said/believed for me to agree with that view.

First of all, the Naruto/Sakura "relationship" (for lack of a better word) did in fact only begin because of Sasuke. Or at least, the two-way part of it did. The absolute fact of the matter is, Sakura only began to try to be nicer to Naruto because her idol and crush explicitly told her that her perception of Naruto (and by extension, people like Sasuke himself) "annoyed" him, with the underlying feeling that it furthermore disgusted him. And it was only AFTER Sasuke told her this that Sakura even considered being nicer to Naruto.

There is simply no escaping this, people. This is an absolute fact proved in black and white by Chapter 3 of the Naruto manga. Without Sasuke's strong expressions of annoyance and disgust at Sakura's views on Naruto and his loneliness, Sakura's epiphany that she should try to be nicer to Naruto, and by extension, their relationship as it is now, would simply not have come to be. Saddening? Perhaps. But it is what it is, and there is nothing that Sakura has or can possibly do in the future that can change that.

You're kidding, right? So by your logic, Sakura wouldn't be affected so much afterwards by Naruto's actions, and would pretty much keep a static view on him?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Also, if you missed it what Nick already stated, after that little scene, she still says later on that she hates Naruto, so her view on him was pretty negative anyway.

Secondly, the statement that "most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure" is, if you'll forgive my candor, one of the most blatantly false assertions I have ever seen as regards to this manga. Why? Check out the famous "departure" scene (Chapter 181). Let's break down what Sakura says here, point by point, and see what it really means.

-Sakura (to Sasuke): "Right now, I know your pain...!! I may have friends and family... but if you were to leave... to me... to me... I would be just as alone as you..."

There is simply no mistaking Sakura's words or intent here. At this advanced point in time (after the Wave mission, after the Chuunin exams, after the Sand/Sound invasion, and after the Akatsuki confrontation), Sakura still thinks that compared to Sasuke, her teammates, her friends, and her family matter so little to her that even if she still has them (and not Sasuke), she would still feel as if she were alone. What does this mean and imply for Naruto? It's nothing more or less than this: Sakura's basically telling Sasuke that compared with him, Naruto matters so little to her as a person/friend/teammate that he might as well not even exist for all she would care.

Is this how Sakura sees Naruto now? I should hope no one thinks so, certainly not after the "promise of a lifetime" scene, and certainly not after her blatant declaration in Chapter 296 to Naruto that "she'll save Sasuke for him"

But wait! There's more.

- Again from the departure scene, we have Sakura basically telling Sasuke that she's so fond of him it hurts, and would do anything for him, anything to get him to stay. In fact, she would even find some way to help him in his revenge.

Again, we have Sakura making some pretty deep declarations here. First, she says that she's "fond of Sasuke very, very much" (I don't think she says she "loves" him, given that it's been proven that she never uses the saying "aikitteneru" in the manga, which is the supreme expression of "love" in the Japanese language, and what she would say if she did indeed declare love). This is quite a big declaration, and one that she, sadly, has yet to give Naruto an equivalent to (and probably won’t until the very end). But that's not anywhere as key as what she says next: that she'll do anything for Sasuke, and would even find some way to help him in his revenge. This declaration right here already speaks of a difference in the relationship between Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke between parts 1 and 2. In this scene, Sakura says she's all willing to help Sasuke in his revenge, and try her best to do something. If this were unchanged going into part 2, we wouldn't have Sakura telling Naruto that "next time, they'll bring Sasuke back together". Furthermore, we wouldn't have Sakura asking Tsunade to train her for BOTH Naruto and Sasuke's sakes, or Sakura and Naruto going on missions to try and to bring back Sasuke to Konoha, or Sakura and Naruto trying to capture Itachi just so they can get to Sasuke. Instead, we would have Sakura asking Tsunade to train her so she can eventually help Sasuke fight Itachi, or Sakura urging Naruto to go after Akatsuki and Itachi. The latter set would fit with her thoughts of "helping Sasuke with his revenge", no matter the cost to anyone else. The former set is what Sakura really wants to do in part 2. I'm pretty sure you guys can see the difference.

But wait, I've yet to get to the biggest part of all.

- Sakura requesting that Sasuke take her with him to Sound if he won't stay in Konoha. "So please, stay with me... or take me with you if you can't stay here..."

To me, it's utterly astounding just how much Sakura is saying here in regards to how highly she regards Sasuke in comparison to everyone else. At that point, she doesn't care enough about her family, teammates (of which Naruto happens to be one), or friends enough to be worried about abandoning her family, or about betraying her village, her team, and her friends. Nor would she apparently mind being a member of Orochimaru's Sound village.

So in sum, she wouldn't mind serving under the vilest blood traitor Konoha has ever known if it would be for Sasuke's sake. She wouldn't mind becoming a member of a ruthless, amoral village that pillaged and destroyed her home, wounded her teammates, killed her Hokage (along with who knows how may of her fellow ninja) and even tried to kill her multiple times, if it meant she could be with Sasuke. Furthermore, she has to know that the Sound would one day return to Konoha to finish the job. So in going to them, she's also saying that she would not only be willing to betray everyone in her life, but also fight against her former home, her former Konoha ninja, and Naruto himself if it came to it. And she would do it all if it meant she'd be at Sasuke's side.

Obviously, Sakura's changed since then. She's certainly not going to be going to the Sound anytime soon, and she won't be betraying anyone. And I doubt she'd even consider hurting anyone from Konoha if Sasuke asked her to. But still, there's simply no denying that she would have been perfectly willing to do so as of Chapter 181. Hell, we even get a possibility of this back in the bell test in Chapter 8, when Kakashi mock-threatens Sakura with killing Sasuke unless she kills Naruto. Notice her shock (which is only relieved whan Kakashi removes the kunai from Sasuke's neck), and the fact that she can't keep her eyes off Sasuke, to where she never looks at Naruto? That, along with the truth that Sakura never tried to help Naruto during the bell test instead choosing to concentrate on Sasuke, tells me just how little she regarded Naruto during the entire thing, and how the only thing she ever cared about was Sasuke.

So if Sakura apparently cared so little for Naruto that his existence in her life still wouldn't make her feel any less lonely than Sasuke feels (as of her statements in the departure scene), how do we get to the point where she cares for him enough to where she's realizing he's always understood her, or that she's telling him that they'll bring Sasuke back together, or healing him from his injuries, or even that she'll save Sasuke for him? Simple. The "promise of a lifetime" scene. I'm not going to elaborate on this scene right now, seeing how it's a staple of NaruSaku and therefore been beat to death here (though if you want I can do that another time), but I will say this much: this is the point where Sakura truly begins to appreciate Naruto for what he really is. Suddenly, she sees that he's always understood her (and tried to), and that he's always been there for her. Through her realizations as to the meaning of this scene and what came of it, she begins to understand exactly what he's willing to do for her happiness. In short, this is the point in the manga where Sakura truly and willingly begins to welcome Naruto into her heart, both as a friend and potentially as something more.

To sum it all up (and this is directed specifically at Nick Soapdish, among others), lets compare Sakura's feelings for Naruto before Sasuke's departure, and afterwards.

Before departure:

- She belittles his orphan past, and is absolutely heartless in her evaluations of it's impact on him (Chapter 3). Furthermore, she only bothers to try and change her views after Sasuke shows his annoyance/disgust.

- She believes that the only thing Naruto is good for is in getting in the way of the love life she wishes to have. Furthermore, that he actually takes pleasure in seeing her struggle and suffer, and isn't capable of understanding her in any way (Chapter 3)

- She obviously doesn't even bother to consider that he could do anything to help either herself or Sasuke in the bell test, to where Kakashi berates her by saying "Instead of Naruto, who was right next to you... You were only thinking about Sasuke, who was far away." (Chapter 8)

- She never has any belief that he can do anything against any of their enemies during the Wave arc. In every battle they fight together, she expresses her belief that Naruto is an idiot to try and fight, or that he's going to quit (or that he should quit). In fact, she even makes light of the fact that he may have died in his training during the Wave arc. Furthermore, it takes some pretty amazing feats to convince her otherwise. Basically, she thinks that Naruto has to prove himself somehow before she should even consider paying him any mind, let alone give him any respect. And even after the Wave arc, she still somewhat holds on to this philosophy (though she does tone it down), most notably during the first test (where she flat out calls Naruto's Hokage aspirations an "impossible dream" in her head, even as she doesn't realize why she doesn't want to crush it) and the aftermath of the battle against Gaara, where she quickly tries to insist that there is no possible way that Naruto could have saved her, and only accepts thoughts to the contrary when Sasuke, despite his pride, keeps insisting he did). In short, Sakura never believes in Naruto on her own inclinations. She is forced into doing it by Sasuke's remarks or by continuous acts of Naruto does that go against her expectations.

- Even after seeing what he's done throughout the Wave Arc, she still believes that Naruto is a hindrance to the team, or she's better than Naruto, to where she feels insulted when Sasuke thinks she's the same as or worse than Naruto as a ninja. And she still insists on this even after Naruto saves them in the forest of death, in saying that Naruto "gets in the way".

- As compared to Sasuke, she apparently cares so little for and about Naruto that she believes his presence in her life won't do anything to affect the "loneliness" she'll have if Sasuke were to leave, a loneliness that implies being COMPLETELY alone. In short, with Sasuke gone, Naruto might as well not even exist for all she would care.

After departure:

- She finally comes to the realization that, contrary to what she previously believed, Naruto always understood her, and furthermore always made an effort to wherever he couldn't (Chapter 183).

- She, for the first time in the manga, clearly and openly expresses her belief in Naruto's ability to get a job done (when she tells him that he's the only person she believes and trusts to bring Sasuke back).

- She finally begins to acknowledge him as being as much a part of Team 7 as Sasuke, and moreover just as important in her heart when she tells Naruto they'll bring Sasuke back together and asks Tsunade to train her (see Chapter 236, especially the picture of Sakura with Naruto and Sasuke in the background). Compare this with her descriptions of Team 7 to Sasuke at the departure scene, where she says "You and me... along with Naruto and Kakashi-sensei".

- She begins to care for him to the point where she even offers to "save Sasuke for him", after seeing just how much he's willing to give up in order to keep his promise for her.

In summary, the assertion that Naruto and Sakura's relationship has most of their development before Sasuke's leaving is, given all this evidence to the contrary, and absolute falsehood. If anything, it had nearly all of it's development AFTERWARDS. Beforehand, Sakura did not appreciate him for the person he was, nor did she show him the respect his abilities and achievements deserved. Furthermore, she was more than willing to dismiss his dreams as impossible and think him a fool and idiot for sticking by them. And above all, she considered him to be so unimportant to her that she would think of herself as being totally lonely without Sasuke in her life, to where she'd willingly betray Naruto and their village to be allied with one of his greatest enemies. That, Nick, altogether does NOT sound like a solid friendship to me. It sounds like an acquaintance built on one-sided expressions from one party and reluctantly grudging concessions from the other that first require that the former party prove themselves continuously at every turn. What is a solid friendship to me? A relationship with trust on both ends, with acknowledgement and appreciation for what each other are, and the knowledge that each person is capable of understanding the other. A relationship that does not require one person constantly having to prove himself to the other before gaining respect, appreciation, or trust. A relationship in which one person should not believe that the other is worth so little to them that they would feel lonely regardless of whether the other person was there or not. A relationship in which a person should never consider betraying the other under ANY circumstances. That is exactly what Naruto and Sakura have in Part 2 and that is what sounds like a solid friendship to me. And I certainly hope that the evidence I've given proves that this willing change in relations was far from a gradual thing stemming from early in Part 1; indeed, that it only wholeheartedly came to be after Sasuke left Konoha, and not a moment before. After all, what kind of "friend" would you think you were if the person you're friends with would feel absolutely lonely regardless of whether you were there or not? Or more to the point, how can you possibly consider someone to be your friend if you think you'd be absolutely lonely regardless of whether they're there for you or not?!? And should a person even consider themselves as a friend of someone if they'd be so willing to betray them as quickly as that?!?!?!?

I'm sorry if this is a bit harsh and long-winded, but I badly needed to get this off my chest. And forgive me if this sounds too presumptuous of me, but somebody needs to call a spade a spade here in regards to this issue. The fact that Naruto and Sakura have bettered their relations in Part 2 does not mean we should disregard or make light of what happened between them in Part 1. We should acknowledge it for exactly what it is, and appreciate how far their relationship has come up to this point. As a devout NaruSaku fan, I know I do.

SkyStrider

The point Nick was trying to make was that Naruto and Sakura's relationship did grow in part 1. Not to the extent of love, but definitely a sense of respect Sakura has for Naruto.

Also, and I don't get why people don't see this, but if Sakura never cared about her friends and family in Konoha, why would she bring them up in her persuasion to try and keep Sasuke with them, and last I checked, it was the first things she tried to do.

The very next day, she could have also easily left Konoha to chase after Sasuke, but she didn't, and instead asked Naruto to bring her back, and just like you said, it was then she realized that Naruto was the one always there for her. Furthermore, in the databook, it was stated specifically by Masashi Kishimoto that once Sakura realized that, her true development began. In other words, she was still a naive child.

[Derock]

well I can get what you are saying, Sky...

BUT.......

You are missing the point. And Magus is right about this, Sakura in Part 1 was a naive child.

Here's the reasons:

1) Mistreating Naruto way back in the beginning (all those points about Wave Arc) - She was in "La-la-la-la la la Land thinking Sasuke is ALL cool and her 'knight-in-shining armor' and what's not" (also known as, she was still in fangirl mode.)

2) Chapter 181 notes - those were would I like to call "Acts of Desperation". She was trying to persude Sasuke not to leave, hoping that he does have "romantic" feelings for her like she does for him (which in reality, he doesn't.)

[Nick Soapdish]

I'm not sure what the bit about chapter three has to do with anything. It shows that Sasuke had an influence on the beginning of their relationship, but I don't think it shows that it's only due to Sasuke nor do I think it shows that the relationship only matured after Sasuke left. And as you noted, she wasn't turning over a new leaf immediately anyway. Even after she was impressed by Naruto's skill with the KBs, she still ignored him and tried to stick with Sasuke for the bell test. She was only gradually impressed by Naruto's skills such as when he recovered his kunai from Zabuza and as illustrated when she remembers how much stronger he's gotten in his fight against Kiba. I believe that Sasuke's words probably contributed, but there's not a clear cause and effect there. After Sasuke's words, she had separate incidents where she misinterpreted Naruto's intentions and was proven wrong, forcing herself to rethink him then. And when she thinks back on how Naruto's changed, she doesn't think back on Sasuke's words.

For the stuff in between, it seems to me that your deprecating the accomplishments that she credited him with (even if grudgingly) and playing up her doubts. Yeah, she had her doubts about him beating Gaara, but Sasuke could hardly believe it and he was watching it.

Regarding chapter 181, I guess that we just read that one differently. When I read it, I saw Sakura as an immature girl that was saying whatever she could to try and convince Sasuke to stay or so they could remain together, without thinking of the consequences to Sasuke ... or to herself. To take her words at face value as proof that she didn't have feelings of friendship for Naruto is to say that she had no close ties to her parents or to Ino or to Kakashi or anybody. I don't have any evidence supporting that other than her own words that she did have friends and family, but I don't think that she regarded those as meaningless. All it proved to me was that her love wasn't "real", but just a crush, jumbled up with feelings of friendship and wanting to take care of the poor boy. I believe that she meant every word that she said at the time - or at least thought that she did, but she was just caught up in the moment. To me, it showed that her feelings for Sasuke were out of sync with what's normal or healthy when she said that she was willing to do anything to be with him regardless of how it affected anyone else, including him or even her.