Bail o' Lies

Sigh. James  Here a important thing to remember for nH and SS. Naruto characters are nothing more than insert for their fantasies. Nothing else. The main reason they ever watch it and became fans of Naruto to any degree was that it was on American TV. If Naruto was like most anime today. The only way to find and watch it was online or dvd. It would just be some random anime they probably won't care anything about let alone watch and they would just find and use another story as a base for their sexual fantasies.

I can understand that both sides bear responsibility for what happened (as I brought up before, I really think Tobirama is given more hate than he deserves while those people seem to act like the Uchiha did absolutely nothing wrong), but anyone who thinks Sasuke should have been Hokage of all things are idiots...

From what I've seen over the years SNS and SS at it core are the same. They both fantasize about having sex with sasuke or in the case of the yaoi fangirl fantasize about him and another hot guy having sex.  And because of their obsessive love for Sasuke they are willing to overlook any problem with the character, anything he says, or any action he takes. Sasuke is basically hinata with plot relevance. So because of their worship of him and the fact that they hate the ending. They think his idea is actually a good idea. When in reality, he is a monster.

What Sasuke's revolution plan was is that he would kill the kages then force the world to submit to him. Obviously this would've led to people revolting against him. He would respond using the tailed beast eventually probably gotten desperate and decided to enact the eye of the moon plan. Which is the right thing now since he's doing it this time.

Naruto's plan was reform. That was his policy he wanted to enact, which was the right course of action ...it was just the fact the ending makes him a failure who has done nothing. That makes people think that Sasuke's plan looked good in comparison.

The problem is that in Fairy Tail if you were to compare it to a pairing in Naruto could be SS, nH, or SK. The differences is that it is completely obvious that GJ is suppose to be comedic (serious mind you but still comedic). Fairy Tail also has a much more comedic tone then Naruto. The only pairings that had any levity in Naruto was NS and JT.

Another thing is how the male behave, their role in the story, and how they reacted to the girl that has a crush on them. Sasuke is a cold and distant guy and was completely unsociable. Who leaves the village and for most of part two was sliding down into villainy. Grey was a cool laid-back guy who was very sociable. He never turned fully evil he was always just the guy the main character had a rivalry with. As for how they reacted to their crush. Sasuke with sheer annoyance and disdain to anything Sakura did. Grey reacted with various emotion shock, confusion, embarrassment, but never disdain. Those difference are why GJ work and SS doesn't. You can see GJ spending time with each other, growing closer together, and developing an admittedly weird but healthy relationship. SS have never spent time with each other where Sasuke didn't treat Sakura with complete contempt most of the time and at best of times mere tolerance, they only grew farther apart as the series went on, and all of this has lead to developing a toxic unhealthy relationship.

Why does Sakura need to die in order for Naruto to gain feelings for Hinata? He could just move on from her romantically for whatever reason

Sakura is the girl Naruto was chasing after throughout the entire story. Therefor she is the gold prize if Naruto wins her. Naruto ending up with hinata is settling for her. So no matter what they may say, she is the silver prize. -I know people are going to complain about me making the romance have a competition analogy and put the girl as nothing more then prizes for the men...but i don't fell like writing something like 12 paragraphs right now- This would be fine if the staff at least admitted it and would have made the last better. But instead they had this weird thing where they were acting like she was the first prize Kewpie doll, while still in some way still -probably subconsciously- treating her like the second place reward. If in the manga say Sasuke did fall for Sakura and we see it (i don't count at the last minute in chapter 699) then Naruto accepts it and decides to let them be happy together and eventually ended up with hinata. Fine. The problem is once again they didn't do this and instead desperately trying to act like she the first place golden prize by cramming the entire romance into one movie. Killing Sakura doesn't resolve the problem but it at least clears the stage and leaves only Hinata to end up with Naruto.

If Hinata were to be the intended heroine from the get go, I'm sure her characterization would be been entirely different

If she was the heroine she would have been or eventually become Sakura. The main difference between her and Sakura would be that her Ino would be Naruto and she would be creepily obsessed with him even more then she already was(hopefully this part would have been removed by yahagi early on and replaced with something else). But we probably would have started with the incredibly shy girl instead of the insecure girl growing into a strong willed confident girl. Remember kishi does have a type as we seen. He likes strong willed woman...at least what is defined as a strong willed woman in shonen manga. If he was to make hinata the heroine from the beginning. She would have eventually become the strong willed woman in shonen manga like chichi, bulma, and videl in dragonball, because that's what kishi's taste are.

The goal of the last was to try and convince the audience as well as the people working on it. That they could ignore 15 years of a story and give the gold medal to their fantasy princess. They somehow still despite acting like she was the greatest prize somehow managed to make her end up coming off as the silver medal reward.

They had years to make it and could've ask kishi to do certain moments in the story to help sell the movie's pairing. And they still failed. Hell they didn't even use Neji despite him dying for the pairing. They just used the anime for the foundation for their movie. While ignoring the manga as much as the could.

Yeah, I don't know why kishi need to design her with a glasses when ss is not even use any glasses.
It's really low. It's like when burito has green eyes to just for the shake of a red herring.

He made her for SK  -which means Bolt was originally suppose to be NS (his design is still crap)- and didn't bother to change her for ss. It why he got so many question about it he decided to make the gaiden a ten chapter mini series instead of a one shot like it was originally intended. Yet for some reason still said apparently in another interview. He still left the question open by the end of the gaiden and left the readers decided who Salad's mommy is. I assume out of spite and the fact when the original idea for the gaiden was still when he thought the ending was still successful.

Rika here a thing to remember TV Tropes anyone with an account could edit or add a post like that. What you have is a nH that hopes that people on TV Tropes will read that without reading any of the interview and will believe every word they written. Also since most anti-ender aren't going over to the Naruto page anymore their not deleting things like that so pro-ending sentiment have flourished. 

Here is the best counters to that with out even counting in the interviews. If Kishi wanted hinata to be the main character and love interest to the hero why wasn't she on team 7? Why did she only get involved with the plot for short burst then fall into the back ground? Why is kishi leaving Naruto and handing the reins over to one of his assistance (one of the constant things he mention in his interview is he is tired of Naruto)? Why did he wait for a movie to finalize the romance? Why has hinata been appearing less then she was before, after the last got release? Why did she do so little in Bolt movie? Why was she only in one image in the gaiden? Why was Naruto's hokage coronation ruined and the one shot was more about his daughter? Why did Sakura get to interact with Minato and not hinata?

Beyond that if Naruto ending was successful. Why is Naruto numbers falling in Japan? They can read Kishi interview no problem, and don't need a translator. So they can read the interview on their own without some evil anti-ender corrupting kishi's simple pure and honest words. Yet people who have friends in Japan have keep saying. That people are leaving Naruto in droves or they are only sticking around for the Sasuke Naruto fight. And some of the reason are the ending, the last, what the anime been doing the past year, and the interviews.

"Whats your opinion on this tv tropes post as labeled word of god never said that." Never said what? Just for notice before I read any further. I'm just going to assume that they are talking about the interviews over the past year. OK. Their were multiple people that translated those interviews. They didn't just come from one source. We even used to have at least one member on this site that was Japanese who translated some of the interviews or at least read the raws and said yes those translations are accurate. Some people are tumbler can read Japanese or are Japanese read the raw and confirmed the translation were accurate. If a bit too polite in most case cause what kishi was actually saying was even more damaging then what was being translated. At least according to some people. Some people on here still have friends in Japan that confirmed the translation were accurate. Their are too many people saying the same thing for it to be entirely wrong. They don't have an agenda like the pro-ender to cover for kishi in order to protect their sexual fantasies. The people that were translating (or confirming the translation) it were basically going "yes, this is what kishimoto is saying...my god, he is an idiot." While they may like the idea of dragging kishi through the mud. I trust them far more then I trust nH or SS fans who seem to have nothing backing up their clam other then the translations being "salty."

"During the fandom meltdown surrounding the resolution of the series' Romance Arcs, several "translations" of Word Of God were strategically circulated that were so out of touch with the original source that they had to have been deliberately engineered to cause grief, facilitate denial and mislead impressionable minds." That reads like a new paper article trying to attack a politician or event or a bill. Fandom meltdown to both mock and dramatize our out rage. Strategically circulated makes it sound like it was a plot orchestrated by the translators in order to get us angry. Out of touch to make it sound like the translators were delusional and wrong or crazy. "Deliberately engineered to cause grief, facilitate denial and mislead impressionable minds" make sound like we were gullible chimps that bought into said manipulations.

"Those consisted of a myriad in-universe and out-of-universe disheartening "true" reasons that the Official Couple got together(?) - it was only because one of them felt sorry for the other and settled for her as a consolation prize (wasn't that the reason kishi gave at the time of the last movie release?); it only happened because of Executive Meddling and the author caving in to fan demands; the TRUE love standing in its way was there and mutual, but it never got to materialize merely due to some tragic misunderstanding, or ill-conceived and needless martyrdom on the part of the characters - the author failed to follow through on it on a vindictive whim(didn't kishi admit that he stopped using sakura because he got soo much hate mail about her even from kids that dishearten him and he keeps stating he doesn't get why hinata is so popular), or because his hand was forced."...BAH Second verse same as the first, but mocking some of our theories. i'm just highlighting now and will save the rest of my thought for the end unless i find something I really want to comment on.

"Compared to all of this, the truth is ridiculously banal; the Official Couple got together in the usual way that fictional couples do — because the author decided it would be great if they were to fall in love(out of pity and the second pair he describe as toxic, says the woman is like a drug addict in the relationship, and he wonder why they are still together), so they did. No reservations(which is why he waited for the last chapter for them to get together and for the movie to put them together instead of having them interact throughout the series), no cynical "yeah, but"s about it. Some of the "true" alternate explanations were just fabricated whole-cloth; others were "inspired" by actual Word Of God that had little resemblance (<-they spelled this wrong) to them, and instead described considerations that are much less scandalous and are par-for-the-course for the occasion. e.g. "if this character doesn't get with this other character her entire arc becomes kind of pointless", or "the decision to go this way was made long ago anyway, I toyed with other possibilities for a while just to throw fans off"."

Kishimoto's close involvement with the production of the movie Naruto the Movie: Road to Ninja which is heavily loaded with Naruto/Sakura Ship Teasing(which is true and he said that it was "everything he couldn't do in the manga" this was years ago or are they going to start saying those translations were wrong), made a lot of their shippers to claim that "The movie is Kishi's baby written by him, that means he supports the ship!", in reality Kishimoto was only involved with the characters' designs and story draft(that would be the last), while the actual script of the movie was done by Yuka Mikata, who's (in)famous for her Naruto/Sakura-teasing scene additions to the anime filler. (In the Road wiki it's says story by kishi meaning he thought up the story and she wrote it...in the last it's says based on kishi work so he didn't write it. he had no story involvement with the last)

You might want to post/show that image to those fans on tumbler. As for the whole hitting thing. I assume that the guys don't like their insert character being hit by a female and not hit back because it questions their masculinity. While girl don't like it because Sakura is hitting their insert for their fantasy boyfriend and how dare she hit their man.

He is here because he thinks or at least thought that. Since his pairing "won" he in the right with what ever he thinks. So he came here hoping to gloat and feel smart about himself. Instead he gets decent argument and debates(by the standards of the internet) that he can't really defeat with his simple comebacks and platitudes of "Haha we won you lost. You're just bitter salty clingers. Get over the ending. Haha."

I already did two post answering the otaku misunderstanding:

The other thing about Sakura's character within the story that makes her more of a heroine (or "better") than Hinata is how their characters are set up.

 

Sakura is the rags-to-riches story of success despite not having a family jutsu technique or hidden super strength. Sakura's story arc follows her getting stronger of her own accord, till she's able to stand beside them and be just as powerful. In that sense, she's surpassed Tsunade, who inherited jutsus/power from her family and had a teacher who spend time on her as well as Jiraiya and Orochimaru.

 

HOWEVER, in Hinata's storyline, her 'high-born' upbringing and natural abilities have to be completely ignored to make her a more sympathetic character. Comparing her to Sakura, Hinata should have been on par with Sasuke in her importance and status in the village — she is the 'princess,' she is a ninja with enough talent to get her through her classes and the competitions. But her motivation for everything is Naruto. Not her clan or her village or her teacher or anyone else who's elevated her to her status as 'byakugan princess.' It is a steady march to the end of the story, with Hinata openly declaring at the end that everything is for him. Even Neji's death. It's a downward spiral instead of a story arc.

 

At the end of the series, when Hinata should have taken her place at the head of her clan, there's no mention of it at all. Hinata's role as stalker has been fulfilled and the rest is expected to be ignored by the audience. 

 

So that right there shows me that Sakura is a better developed character than Hinata. In the end, we don't know Sakura's state either. But she can choose whether to work or not. Hinata doesn't have that luxury as clan head, which was the whole point of suspense of her earlier story. So in the end to have her princess upbringing completely sidelined so she can be Naruto's lap dog shows how Hinata's story was narrowed down to one feature — worshipping Naruto — even as she had more scenes in the manga and even a movie about her.

 

You know, I don't think either one ended up as a heroine, unfortunately. I think the story ended without a heroine. (And really, the story ended without it's hero too. Naruto got shafted just as much as Sakura did.)

Hinata is not the clan head. She is Hinata Uzumaki now. She has married into the Uzumaki family/clan. She is no longer Hinata Hyuuga. She was revoked of the right to become clan head of the Hyuuga clan. It's either still her father or her sister that are clan head. Whenever a patriarch of a clan has only daughters as children they normally either marry their eldest to a distant cousin or adopted their husband into the clan. To keep thing in the family. Example both Sasuke and Hinata both parents are from the same clan. Naruto is still an Uzumaki as are his kids and his wife. They are not Hyuuga by inheritance laws. They are Uzumaki, not Hyuuga.

If were going down that road Hinata is a more appealing spouse because she a daughter of a clan head from an ancient clan. That's a lot of prestige and pedigree to give your future kids. Sakura on the other hand is for a clan we know nothing about and might as well be new blood/money. Not much prestige or pedigree to give to your kids. That as well as her breast, her absolute obedience, and devotion to Naruto is what is appealing to her supporters.

As for heroine Hinata is the worst heroine if you actually look at her story. "Oh poor me. I'm the heiress to the richest and most powerful clan in the village. I was born with not a silver, but a golden spoon in my mouth. I'm the one percent of the one percent of the one percent! Pity and love me everyone because I'm shy and can't do anything because I don't put any effort into anything or even try. I just give up all the time. So my younger sister and my cousin who is of a side branch therefor a lesser creature then me are stronger then me because they actually train. All I do is fantasize about a guy I like. While pitying myself because I never talk to him ever. Despite him being alone for his entire life and could use a friend. I just watch him from a far watch him be lonely and miserable because it give me such great inspiration! To do nothing! I get everything I ever wanted in the end without you ever actually seeing my character develop or even try to accomplish anything! No seriously my character is completely flat with no growth in personality. Thought my breast most certainly did grow and their my best feature. I start out a shy girl that only does something to get her crush to notice her and end with people forcing my crush to marry me."

Did Naruto even become Chunin by the last? I don't think rank matter to Sasuke after the end because he has that wander thing going on.

As for getting ready for  the hokage position even if Naruto wan't ready by the ending he still had 15 years to get ready and grow to become hokage. Remember Kakashi only retired recently by chapter 700 (kiba said it, and that one shot showed it). Instead of preparing learning or anything. He just got with Hinata, then waited till Kakashi wanted to retire. As far as we know that all he did, and his brat are spoiled kittens.

 

TL just integrated Kishi original idea into story by eliminate almost all Yahagi idea, angry NS fans made it easy due their burning bridge act. Whatever you complain it wont useful because NS already written off and excluded from Naruto fandom.  DC can reboot pairing because comic fans love it.

...Kishi original idea was: "just Naruto visiting a ramen stand." He has admitted to that in interviews. He has also admitted to this. After Yahagi gave him some advice to change the story. He went with: "the one shot where Naruto was the son of a nine tailed fox." After a few more suggestion/advice from Yahagi the story became Naruto as we know today. One of the biggest selling manga internationally. Yes, Clearly! Everything Yahagi did was such as disaster and such a humongous mistake! A tragedy for the ages!

Also Kishimoto did not write "The Last: Naruto Movie" he only did the designs for the characters. The person who wrote the last was Kyozuka Maruo, and it was Directed by Tsuneo Kobayashi. Both of them work for SP. Kishimoto in several interviews has said that The Last was entirely SP idea. In an interview Kobayashi said the only thing Kishimoto ask for in their first meeting about the movie was, that Naruto remain the main character in the movie. If Kishi came up with ideas for the movie why did Kobayashi mention it in his interview? He actually admitted that kishi wasn't the one who came up that scarf idea. The only line they mention kishi help with was "It takes a long time to knit a scarf."

Once again. If he originally wanted Hinata to be the heroine? Why not make her apart of team 7? Why is she only in what 38 panels and under 20 chapters of a manga that's 700 chapter in length?  Why is it that he consonantly says he is surprised of her popularity? Why is that after she apparently take her so called "rightful place" as "The True Heroine, The Goddess of Naruto." That she still has so little screen time in both the gaiden, and Bolt's movie? 

And now. If Kishi is Finally free of the oppressive shackles Yahagi place on him by ruining his original plans for Naruto. Condemning him with the romantic story of Naruto/Sakura which he kept seemingly to the last minute. Despite Yahagi leaving years ago. He is now allowed to do with the Bolt's manga that he originally wanted to do with Naruto. Isn't he? Why is it that instead he is handing it over to someone else, and is constantly mentioning that he is tired and done with Naruto? Isn't he FINALLY FREE TO DO WHAT HE ORIGINALLY WANTED!? 

Yes studios look for ratings. But ratings by themselves are not the only reason a show is or might be cancelled.

There was a show some years ago about the future and timelines (can't recall the name of it), and the ratings for that show were insanely highly for a brand new show but the studio cancelled it after its mid-season finale. The show didn't even get a full season.

Why was it cancelled? No one knows.

Yes and they are keeping Naruto going because while it may no longer have high ratings it used to have. It's still giving them more money than they would get if they cancelled it. They are also keeping the anime alive hoping the bolt manga will hopefully be a success and revive the now declining franchise. A lot of shows end after there first season because producers don't think it will be successful whether or not it has high rating. It ultimately up to the producers of a show to decide whether or not to keep a show going or cancel it. SP and SJ want the anime to continue because they hope to then springboard onto the bolt anime. So they are using these filler to keep the Naruto anime going until they are ready to go onto the Bolt anime.

Mangavise - before The Last came out - "Naruhina" only exist in heads of fans, Naruto never watched at Hinata as love interest, he never reacted to her statement, and there is no even a bit indication about him having anything to her more than to any other of his friends from same class. But movie add tons of "true details" that contradicts years of development in manga, and bluntly contradicts not even dynamics of Naruto and Hinata, but there very basics of manga's plot it. 

This. Also those scene from the last were based of the filler scene from the anime an interview with the director of the last admitted it.