31 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

No, this isn't natural in Japanese manga at all. I've been reading manga for over 30 years and sorry, I don't recall even one manga that had an ending that made a complete travesty of the whole story- I'm not just talking about the nonsensical pairings, but look at Naruto- he's stern and clearly unhappy (no smile like he always had for everyone), an alcoholic (whiskey bottle right out in the open at his desk,along with stacks of instant ramen cups- another point he's ignoring his mother's advice on) who avoids his so called family as much as possible, physically and verbally puts his son for wanting him to be a father. This  is a Naruto who acts like Sasuke... Note as well Kishimoto did not write this epilogue nor will he be writing the part 3 limited series- one of his assistants is doing both. Kishimoto talked about how his assistants hated Sakura even back in part 1, remember as well. Plus there's been quite a bit of noise in the Japanese Naruto fandom about how wrong this ending is and how it was forced by the huge number of fans that Nana Mizuki has- voice actor for Hinata and also a very popular idol singer. (Far more popular than any of the other Naruto voice actors, including Junko.) Only the voice actor for Shikamaru comes anywhere near Nana Mizuki's fanbase. But her fans have no real ties to Naruto fandom, it's just about Mizuki's idol singer popularity- they'll buy or see anything she does, as long as she's the star of it. Japanese fans are thanking Kishimoto for what he wrote, but are making the same critical reactions about the complete nonsensical chapter 700.

 

Ciardha! I'm not sure how I missed your post earlier, but I was wondering about your thoughts on the manga ending/movie/spin-off! It's good to hear your opinion after reading mangas all your life about never seeing something quite like this before.

 

I agree, it's incredibly disappointing to see Naruto as a version of himself we've never seen before. Weighed down by the cares of the world. Even in his youth, when the whole village was against him, he was never like that. He's lost his thousand-watt smile. And his son is not a 'chip off the old block,' either. Bolt is grumpy and unhappy and vengeful. Every bit of art so far shows him looking pouty or stuck up. He does not have Naruto's indomitable spirit. 

 

I have also been terribly disappointed in the promotion of Hinata in a Cinderella-like fashion, getting recognition only because of her good deeds/gentle spirit. It's such an old storytelling archetype, and it's the one to give the least offense to the masses. I agree that Kishimoto must have been bending to pressure, because the ending is so unlike any part of the story he's written so far. Your perspective is very appreciated!

 

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

No, it is not an issue of cultural differences at all. I have been reading manga and watching anime for longer than some members of this board have been alive (I am not gloating or something ridiculous like that. It is only a fact). I grew up watching anime in the eighties. And I have never seen something like this.

 

And I had never watched an anime show where a girl following a guy like a deranged stalker or hooking up with a deranged stalker was treated like something positive.

 

...

 

In fact I do not remember any anime where a girl followed a guy like a deranged stalker or hooked up with a guy that was a deranged stalker.

 

It is an issue of bad writing -and perhaps editorial interference-, that is all.

 

Maybe it is an issue of anime shows pandering to otaku during the last decade, though. For a long while they have been catering to people who is not interested in real relationships with real people but in living vicariously through characters that hook up with quiet, submissive women that are always supportive, soft-spoken and kind and never get angry, upset or talk against you (ironically the characters that they usually treat like epitomes of womanly perfection -Rei Ayanami and the like- are NOT supportive, sweet and kind AT ALL).

 

And I really appreciate your perspective too, Jenskott - it's really nice to hear your opinion after comparing Naruto to all the other mangas/animes you've read/watched. It's a very different world since anime became a little more main stream in the US in the early 80s. Kishimoto is 40, so this would have been the world he grew up in too. Not as an Internet-native where everything is new and modern and readily available at the touch of a finger, but as he would have been a kid in Japan, waiting for the next chapter or release with zero information about it, just like everybody else.

 

So it's comforting to hear that you can't remember a series ever going down like this either. Maybe it is indicative of the sway that 'otaku' hold over the industry right now in Japan, as Miyazaki says. Maybe 10-15 years ago, or when Kishimoto started Naruto, a mangaka could expect to have more control over his story than one does now, in the world of instant marketing and international audiences. Yeah, and maybe it's less about the manga girls fitting into a cultural stereotype as it is about marketing an anime that is going to hit the most profitable audience. 

[tricksie]

 

No offense, but this is not "cultural differences" conversation, this is just "Hinata sucks, Sakura rulez" thread (again) which is bleeding from several wounds.

 

HInata didn't change? Her love for Naruto didn't, but she became far stronger than Part I, learned many techniques of her clan, became more determined and independent, saved Neji from white Zetsus (chapter 525-526), obtained a Byakugan stronger and better than Neji's (Hinata's 10 km, Neji's only 500-600 m) and in the end she finally got Naruto's acknowledge that she is strong (also mentioning that he had to be saved by her several times). Also, despite that Neji lashed his anger on Hinata because of her father she still didn't had any hatred towards Neji.

 

What you wrotte about Sakura is also something that can backfire, specialy her "relationships": despite Sai told into her face that Naruto has feelings for her she didn't care about it infact simply friendzoned Naruto while she was still loving Sasuke - so much about "Hinata is the old forgiving one lady".

 

Sorry, but I hoped that there will be really some cultural comparsion and not character bashing - I like Sakura, but I hate glorifing her by bashing other characters.

 

Did you not read this thread? That's not the case at all.

 

And if you're going to come on here and bitch that the posts are just character bashing, then don't turn around and character bash yourself!

 

You want people to talk about cultural comparisons? Then you start by posting about cultural comparisons.  

[Jenskott]

 

And I really appreciate your perspective too, Jenskott - it's really nice to hear your opinion after comparing Naruto to all the other mangas/animes you've read/watched. It's a very different world since anime became a little more main stream in the US in the early 80s. Kishimoto is 40, so this would have been the world he grew up in too. Not as an Internet-native where everything is new and modern and readily available at the touch of a finger, but as he would have been a kid in Japan, waiting for the next chapter or release with zero information about it, just like everybody else.

 

So it's comforting to hear that you can't remember a series ever going down like this either. Maybe it is indicative of the sway that 'otaku' hold over the industry right now in Japan, as Miyazaki says. Maybe 10-15 years ago, or when Kishimoto started Naruto, a mangaka could expect to have more control over his story than one does now, in the world of instant marketing and international audiences. Yeah, and maybe it's less about the manga girls fitting into a cultural stereotype as it is about marketing an anime that is going to hit the most profitable audience. 

 

 

It is certainly a different world. Back when I was a little kid, I watched the weekly episode or read the monthly chapter, not knowing or caring if there were more fans like me, I talked of it with my friends the next day... and I forgot about it until the next chapter/episode was published/aired.

 

Nowadays... As soon as something is out you have hundreds or thousands of fans obsessing over it, scrutinizing it, dissecting it, deconstructing it, looking for flaws, trying revealing the clay feet... and they spend the whole time doing this until a new episode or chapter is out.

 

I do not think that change has been a good one. But I digress.

 

I can only think of one instance when the creator has been forced to change his/her intended official couple. However the switch happened during the first volumes rather in volume 75.

 

When Rumiko Takahashi began writing Urusei Yatsura, Ataru/Shinobu was meant to be the official couple. However Lum became so incredibly popular (she is one of the main female icons of 80's anime) that Takahashi's editor forced her to turn Lum/Ataru in the official couple.

 

However I knew nothing of this when I started to read.

 

During the first chapters, Shinobu and Ataru seemed the canon couple (actually they were boyfriend and girlfriend back then) and Lum seemed being the spoiler interfiring with their relationship. Actually a chapter showed Ataru and Shinobu married and with a child ten years in the future.

 

However I could not read more chapters for a long while. Later I watched one of the UY movies, and Ataru and Lum were a couple in that movie -after a fashion-. Or at least everyone treated them like a couple. I got puzzled, but I did not care much for pairings so I went on watching. Nonetheless, Ataru and Lum did not click with me for some reason. I felt something was amiss...

 

And then I found out about the meddling behind the scenes and I understood why Ataru/Lum felt so forceful and off to me.

 

Later I found and purchased the remainder volumes. It was inmensely funny, but Ataru/Lum never clicked with me.

 

And damn it if Takahashi's next editors did not try make the same thing with her other series. Fortunately Takahashi was able to put a stop to their meddling then.

[rocci]

@azure knight
Hinata is suck. Hinata is an overated character by her fan and unintentionally overhyped by kishimoto.

Now for cultural difference. What is the difference between korean drama and Japanese drama?

[Suigetsu]

No, this isn't natural in Japanese manga at all. I've been reading manga for over 30 years and sorry, I don't recall even one manga that had an ending that made a complete travesty of the whole story- I'm not just talking about the nonsensical pairings, but look at Naruto- he's stern and clearly unhappy (no smile like he always had for everyone), an alcoholic (whiskey bottle right out in the open at his desk,along with stacks of instant ramen cups- another point he's ignoring his mother's advice on) who avoids his so called family as much as possible, physically and verbally puts his son for wanting him to be a father. This  is a Naruto who acts like Sasuke... Note as well Kishimoto did not write this epilogue nor will he be writing the part 3 limited series- one of his assistants is doing both. Kishimoto talked about how his assistants hated Sakura even back in part 1, remember as well. Plus there's been quite a bit of noise in the Japanese Naruto fandom about how wrong this ending is and how it was forced by the huge number of fans that Nana Mizuki has- voice actor for Hinata and also a very popular idol singer. (Far more popular than any of the other Naruto voice actors, including Junko.) Only the voice actor for Shikamaru comes anywhere near Nana Mizuki's fanbase. But her fans have no real ties to Naruto fandom, it's just about Mizuki's idol singer popularity- they'll buy or see anything she does, as long as she's the star of it. Japanese fans are thanking Kishimoto for what he wrote, but are making the same critical reactions about the complete nonsensical chapter 700.

Do we really have a confirmation that he didnt wrote it?

[tricksie]

 

It is certainly a different world. Back when I was a little kid, I watched the weekly episode or read the monthly chapter, not knowing or caring if there were more fans like me, I talked of it with my friends the next day... and I forgot about it until the next chapter/episode was published/aired.

 

Nowadays... As soon as something is out you have hundreds or thousands of fans obsessing over it, scrutinizing it, dissecting it, deconstructing it, looking for flaws, trying revealing the clay feet... and they spend the whole time doing this until a new episode or chapter is out.

 

I do not think that change has been a good one. But I digress.

 

Yeah, I was just talking about this too. It's crazy that the Marvel series/characters have become so popular now, when they are so inaccessible to young kids. In the 60s, 70s and 80s you could get comic books just about anywhere in the US. Every convenience store, gas station, grocery store had a revolving kiosk of comic books. Now, if you want a comic book, you have to go to a book store of a comic book store. 

 

While the Marvel movies are all great, sometimes it's still surprising to me that they've caught on in popularity, after their peak had long passed. This isn't like a rehash of some late 80s-early 90s cartoons that have been made into movies (Transformers and TMNT). Those shows were accessible to everyone. 

 

The fan love for those marvel comics is based on a 40-50yos memories. It's not the same devotion for kids today, growing up with Iron Man dolls from walmart. 

[Jenskott]

 

Yeah, I was just talking about this too. It's crazy that the Marvel series/characters have become so popular now, when they are so inaccessible to young kids. In the 60s, 70s and 80s you could get comic books just about anywhere in the US. Every convenience store, gas station, grocery store had a revolving kiosk of comic books. Now, if you want a comic book, you have to go to a book store of a comic book store. 

 

While the Marvel movies are all great, sometimes it's still surprising to me that they've caught on in popularity, after their peak had long passed. This isn't like a rehash of some late 80s-early 90s cartoons that have been made into movies (Transformers and TMNT). Those shows were accessible to everyone. 

 

The fan love for those marvel comics is based on a 40-50yos memories. It's not the same devotion for kids today, growing up with Iron Man dolls from walmart. 

 

When I was a kid there were a lot of kiosks in my city. Most of them have disappeared and the remainder hardly sell comic-books (and they only sell American comic-books. Japanese and European comics have all but disappeared). Sigh.

 

I think it may be a sign of a cultural shift. I have the feeling of most of young kids do not generally care for comic-books or cartoons. We got exposed to them when we were growing up because they were everywhere. Now they are less accesible or improper for them or plainly unmemorable. And tv-channels no longer broadcast cartoons proper for young teens where I live. Hence, when children grow too old for Adventure Time they start to watch to Criminal Minds or Breaking Bad because there are no bridge series (and that is a trouble, IMO). And if you think about it, most of bridge series broadcasting right now are remakes, reboots or sequels of older shows: Transformers, TMNT, Thundercats, Legend of Korra, Power Rangers...

 

I agree about American comic-books. Ironically they are more popular than ever before even though they sell less and less. Few years ago I saw a sales graph that showed that American comic-books sales have been going down since the Fourties going for total sales of each decade (of course the numbers of that chart might be wrong. I do not know). Of course, there are peaks and declines throughout the years... In the Fourties and Fifties Superman consistently sold 1,000,000 monthly copies. In the Eighties, if a Marvel book "only" sold 100,000 monthly copies it was cancelled due to low sales. Nowadays if a book sells 90,000 monthly copies Marvel and DC editors declare that it is a resounding success. And if an issue has bigger sales due to an event or cheap gimmick that leads retailers to order in excess, Marvel and DC editors proclaim that it is proof of the industry going well.

[alexander]

 

Yeah, I was just talking about this too. It's crazy that the Marvel series/characters have become so popular now, when they are so inaccessible to young kids. In the 60s, 70s and 80s you could get comic books just about anywhere in the US. Every convenience store, gas station, grocery store had a revolving kiosk of comic books. Now, if you want a comic book, you have to go to a book store of a comic book store. 

 

While the Marvel movies are all great, sometimes it's still surprising to me that they've caught on in popularity, after their peak had long passed. This isn't like a rehash of some late 80s-early 90s cartoons that have been made into movies (Transformers and TMNT). Those shows were accessible to everyone. 

 

The fan love for those marvel comics is based on a 40-50yos memories. It's not the same devotion for kids today, growing up with Iron Man dolls from walmart. 

 

I think accessible is the word for this new generation. These Marvel movies are easily enjoyed by any person of any age like you said. The characters are charismatic, witty and the jokes are clever. The action is heavy but not brutal. The pacing in general is really good. Japan usually lack that cleverness. The manga and anime industry usually tend to cater to the more predictable otaku crowd. It's aways the same beaten down tropes with an different paint job, by wich I mean setting. The authors never try anything new, never take an daring bet. And maybe that's why shonen series tend to get cancelled so easily these days. It's just more of the same. The only exception I see is Nisekoi, wich is quite odd, since after reading it, the story is surprisingly predictable. It's just an typical school life romantic comedy that usually goes nowere because the protagonist is an wimp that can't choose an girl and be done with it.

 

Take me for example. It's been an while that I've been writing an fantasy series I wanted to turn into an comic. Unlike the normal trope, I would make the heroine the main character of the comic, rather then the hero, with her taking the lead and making the decisions. At first. it was the other way around, with the hero being the main character. But as I wrote, I realized he didn't had the heroic qualities to be the main character, while the heroine did. Why was he the main character in the first place? That's when I realized I was so focused to follow patterns that already existed in other series that I forgot I could just make my own. That's the problem with most anime and manga these days. They fall for the same "sameness".

[James S Cassidy]

The biggest problem I face a lot is....if this is all a cultural norm, why isn't it displayed more often in other, just as popular or more, manga/anime series? I have read so many stories in manga and I have seen so many anime and even made theories on said series...and was never as wrong as I apparently was with Naruto.

I watched three new anime myself recently.
My bride is a mermaid
B Gata H Kei
and Moonphase.

To do a test, and using what I knew about writing styles in Japanese stories, I made a theory based only on the assumption on the series...basically the premise of it. Half-way into the series I made more theories, and then saw the rest to see where it goes. Guess what? I predicted all of the series with a good 90% accuracy.

B Gata H Kei was one I probably almost nailed it 100%.  Just watching the series alone with cheating I knew exactly what was going to happen almost word for word. In fact, this series especially has a huge love triangle set up similar to Naruto with slight differences.

1. Knuckle-headed hero. (Kosuda/Naruto)
2. The tsundere girl who is more than her shallow views (Yamada/Sakura)
3. The Shy girl with huge boobs who is also a clutz (Miyano/Hinata)
4. The Obsessive rival love interest (Kyoka/Karin)
5. The popular pretty boy. (Keiichi/Sasuke)

Of course, not everything is exactly the same, but still it is pretty close. Can you take a guess what happens in the series? It is pretty obvious. So how can this series have such a great story telling, clean cut love story, but apparently Kishimoto couldn't do it? Granted, this was a romance story of sorts and it mostly focused on such, but since Naruto has been reduced to nothing more than a romance story...might as well compare now.

So how can so many other Japanese manga, whether romance or not, tell a better story that doesn't trick or fool the reader by just disregarding tons and tons of development? Cultural difference my foot. 
 

[Jenskott]

 

 

I think accessible is the word for this new generation. These Marvel movies are easily enjoyed by any person of any age like you said. The characters are charismatic, witty and the jokes are clever. The action is heavy but not brutal. The pacing in general is really good. Japan usually lack that cleverness. The manga and anime industry usually tend to cater to the more predictable otaku crowd. It's aways the same beaten down tropes with an different paint job, by wich I mean setting. The authors never try anything new, never take an daring bet. And maybe that's why shonen series tend to get cancelled so easily these days. It's just more of the same. 

 

I think that is part of the trouble but not all of it. Let's face it, originality died two seconds after the first human beings gathered around a campfire to tell stories. All stories are copies from each other. Our favorite mangas copy tropes and storylines of another mangas or stories that the creator liked (I laugh outloud whenever I heard someone telling Evangelion is original. I am a long-time mecha fan and there is absolutely NOTHING new or original about Evangelion). Nonetheless, being unable to be original does not mean that you are unable to be creative, imaginative or skilful.

 

The trouble is not that Japanese creators copy tropes. The trouble is that they copy them with not care, thought or understanding of them. They are not trying to be original but they are not trying to be good either. They do not craft stories, they simply assemble them using a laundry list of tropes. And it is worse when they try to subvert expectations or deconstruct tropes... because then we have the ending of Naruto, where things happened simply because the author wanted to, even if they made no sense storytelling-wise.

 

Back in 1972 Go Nagai wanted to create a robot-themed manga like Astroboy or Gigantor/Tetsujin 28-go, two shows that he loved when he was a kid. Yet he did not want to rip them off. He wanted to create something different. He had a hard time finding a good idea until he finally the concept of a robot controlled from within occurred to him, a concept that has been copied for every robot show made after Mazinger-Z. And later he got the idea of several vehicles combining to shape a giant robot, another concept that has been copied countless times.

 

 

 

The only exception I see is Nisekoi, wich is quite odd, since after reading it, the story is surprisingly predictable. It's just an typical school life romantic comedy that usually goes nowere because the protagonist is an wimp that can't choose an girl and be done with it.

 

Maybe it is because the author simply tried to make a good story using a typical high school romance plot. He did not try to be original but he tried to make a good work. So you found it entertaining even though it was predictable.

 

You will see, several months ago I was watching a subbed episode of Mirai Robo Daltanias. Daltanias is a third-rate seventies super robot show. There were absolutely nothing remarkable or original about it. When I watched the episode I was constantly predicting what was going to happen, and guessing correctly. Still I found it entertaining. Why? Because the cartoon-makers were at least trying to make an entertaining show. They did not try to reinvent the wheel that Go Nagai created -another seventies mecha shows already did that-, they were only trying to make something good.

 

Nowadays most of giant robot shows are either soulless copies from Mazinger-Z/Getter Robo/Macross/Gundam/Evangelion/FlavorOfMonthShowerion, or crappy subversions such like Damidailer (ugh!). And most of mecha main characters are shallow carbon copies of Kouji Kabuto/Ryoma Nagare/Amuro Rei/Shinji Ikari. They are not fresh and they are not charismatic.

 

You can extrapolate this to most genres in current anime.

 

 

 

Take me for example. It's been an while that I've been writing an fantasy series I wanted to turn into an comic. Unlike the normal trope, I would make the heroine the main character of the comic, rather then the hero, with her taking the lead and making the decisions. At first. it was the other way around, with the hero being the main character. But as I wrote, I realized he didn't had the heroic qualities to be the main character, while the heroine did. Why was he the main character in the first place? That's when I realized I was so focused to follow patterns that already existed in other series that I forgot I could just make my own. That's the problem with most anime and manga these days. They fall for the same "sameness".

 

Yes, it is always a bunch of cliches taken of different -often superior- series and assembled with no care or thought. And when they try to subvert them or deconstruct them it is worse. There has been a terrible lack of imagination and skill and professionalism in the manga/anime industry for many years. A friend of mine and me were already complaining about it ten years ago. A decade later the situation has apparently not changed.

 

Alexander, your story reminds me of another anecdote what I read several years ago. An American comic-book writer -I do not remember his name- gloated that he wanted to bring Fantastic Four back to their roots imitating Jack Kirby's work. When Jack Kirby (God bless his soul) heard it, he shook his head and told that "He does not get it. Imitating Kirby does not mean imitate my work. Imitating Kirby means making something that nobody else does."

 

Hmm... I am wondering if this post sounds very arrogant or even unfair. I hope not.

 

 

 

Of course, not everything is exactly the same, but still it is pretty close. Can you take a guess what happens in the series? It is pretty obvious. So how can this series have such a great story telling, clean cut love story, but apparently Kishimoto couldn't do it? Granted, this was a romance story of sorts and it mostly focused on such, but since Naruto has been reduced to nothing more than a romance story...might as well compare now.

So how can so many other Japanese manga, whether romance or not, tell a better story that doesn't trick or fool the reader by just disregarding tons and tons of development? Cultural difference my foot. 

 

Exactly. It is not a matter of cultural differences (or else why there are not more Japanese comic-books where the main character ends up with the wallflower stalker that he barely talked at instead of with the girl that he actively pursued?). It is a matter of bad storytelling.

[hinataiscreepy]

Speaking of this topic, I Wonder if Kishi did not make Neji x hinata happen also because of the west view on incestual relationshis

[Phantom_999]

Granted the nature of that one was just exaggerated in spinoffs.