RulesofNature

I have a serious question to ask guys. In all seriousness if Naruto married Sakura and the plot happened the same as it does now with the new era project and Boruto, except that Sakura is the mother would you STILL hate this series? Now I know that that obviously plot wise Sakura would not be this passive doormat that lets Naruto stay in office,or would permit their children to become spoiled entitled brats like Hinata does, but for the sake of argument, that it does work out the same way. Would you hate this story or stick by it just because NaruSaku became canon? I have a point with this. That is, the difference between being a fan of the story or a fan of the shipping. I want to DISPROVE what the pro-enders say about us on how we would be eating this "garbage heap" like it was candy if NaruSaku happened

No. Just no.

I was willing to walk away and accept NaruHina because, with how the War arc turned out, it seemed perfectly in-line with the low-level writing the series has devolved into. I was just done with the series at that point, finishing it because I had followed it for so long and could see the light at the end of the (unnecessarily long and convoluted) tunnel. I was willing to accept the ending and be done with ti.

That is, until I started seeing stuff everywhere about how Naruto became a bad father. Then I heard about how they had Naruto say he only chased after Sakura to compete with Sasuke and always loved Hinata despite him not realizing it. At that point I just went "Please spare me. This doesn't mean that Naruto's bond with Hinata is strong, it just means that his obsession with Sasuke was stronger than I thought. How are those two not freaking married?" And then I saw all the stuff about how the Naruto failed to reform the world.

So I began investigating as well as reflecting on the manga. Suddenly the ending which I was going to accept was horrible, just horrible. NaruHina is only part of what went wrong. The complete desecration of Naruto Uzumaki, a character I identified with on some level since I was 13, that's the issue here.

Uhm... Well, anyways... I feel as though in the end, Naruto is fulled with many missed opportunities, pairings is one of them.

And just think about it. Before the war arc, NaruHina was legit a crack ship. There was little to no interaction in Part 1. The biggest interaction they had in part 2 was during the Pain confession.

And then you have NaruSaku, who had moments in both parts. Part 1 focused on developing Naruto's feelings and Part 2 focused on developing Sakura's feelings. They just had to come together. Instead we got... well, you know.

NaruHina wasn't just a crack ship. Most of their interactions in the manga canon had implications that should have put the breaks on any relationship between the two. There's enough we can pick apart that shows like Sakura Hinata didn't really understand who Naruto really was, but whereas Sakura's low opinion of him changed through their time together Hinata just kept fangirling. Her obsession with Naruto is unhealthy and I have to ask didn't the Rock Lee spinoff make fun of it? It's pretty much the opposite of what fans of the pairing say it is.

The "Spirit" of Boruto is "The Spirit of Chapter 700." Endure all suffering, and forgive any crime cause there is nothing you or anyone else can do anyway. In the Boruto movie they also added a desire to be seen as cool which leads to his dream of becoming the Hokage's top hitman. Other then some legacy morals that carried over from Naruto. Boruto is nothing like Naruto, and not in a good way.

 

The problem of a reformist is they need to strike while the iron is hot, spend as much time as possible working on their reforms to make sure they work, and will survive once the reformer is gone. Also they should be resolute in their beliefs and determined to accomplish their goals in order to reform society. Hopefully for the better.

 

With Naruto even with what they gave us. According to the anime; he let Kakashi become hokage, and agreed to keep the Uchiha massacre truth a secret in order to let Sasuke out of jail. Then according to the light novels; he then spent two years behaving like a jackass doing nothing till the Last happened. Where in the Last: he was just the brute of the group doing whatever he was told, and we learned that apparently everything he ever said he believed in for fifteen years was a lie. Then he spends several years assing around while being Hinata's Husband doing God knows what?! Until Kakashi finally just retires and decided to give the job to him(chapter 700 & the oneshot). Where he has shown to be completely in over his head in merely running the village much less trying to change the very ninja system that controls the entire world, which he seems to have done nothing about (Boruto).

The most beautiful thing about arguments like this is the NH/SS Pro-Enders can't just write off such criticisms as butthurt shippers, and I've seen a lot of arguments like this floating around.

I`ve been thinking... what if Kishimoto is secretly a genius?

 

Sure it would be simple to assume that Kishi at some point lost his complete marbles and decided to ignore all the development he put into the manga. Now by no means will I even suggest that the following was the plan all along.

 

I think we can rightly assume that the endgame ships were the result of some sort of editorial interference. But what if his ultimate answer was "Fine I will do it but go to hell."

Because if you read the epilogue or even the early Boruto manga (I haven't caught up yet fyi) it is written in no unclear terms that they are not happy. Everybody has a kittentier life than they did before the world was "fixed".

 

So why do I believe this was done? I believe that the ending made it clear that NS should have been endgame. But due to their personal issues with themselves because if you think about it both Naruto and Sakura hate themselves to some degree. And if their belief that they cannot make the other happy because they each see themselves as the lesser option for the other is strong enough than the ending is perfectly logical. It was their own insecurity that prevented the prime timeline from occurring and we are thus given the darkest timeline version of future events in which they both paradoxically sacrificed their own happiness by not giving their love a chance while also playing it safe by choosing the safe option. For Sakura it was Sasuke who was always her ""love"" and was thus logical to her that Sasuke was her emotional fallback, while for Naruto it was Hinata who was always an option for him albeit one he (for the obvious reasons) never would have considered. Thus they made their moves (or lack there off) and the weaves of fate took over from there.

 

Therefore I believe that the scenes that were so nicely analysed in this topic (hats off to ya mate) ultimately served a purpose. Be it in the prime timeline context of NaruSaku in which it all has meaningful payoff or the darkest timeline which is ultimately a story of unrequited love on both sides that ultimately devastated two marriages and what was once a wonderful friendship.

 

PS: I wonder of Kishimoto`s age could have had an impact on his choosing an unhappy ending for the heroes. He was about ready to enter his midlife crisis years which could contribute to the darker ending so completely devoid of the early optimism. Because really... the ending is a sad commentary on what shinobi (or people for that matter) would be without purpose.

I've actually theorized that the ending and what was set up for Boruto was out of spite.

Here's how it works. Naruto ended up consuming Kishi's life. SP, SJ and all the rest kept pushing him to expand the story, far further than he originally intended to. Kishi wasn't able to spend time with his wife and kids like he wanted to, instead having to focus on a story he was losing passion for and an incredibly demanding schedule. What's worse, the suits made it clear that they wanted to keep the franchise going with a next generation angle which meant that Naruto couldn't fix the ninja system (I've made similar claims about Tomino and the endings of Zeta/ZZ Gundam being driven by the fact there was another Gundam installment planned to come afterwards).

Naruto had taken over Kishi's life, so Kishi struck back. Naruto didn't marry the girl he loved, and has a dysfunctional relationship with his son. His son has also received extensive training as a ninja, and whose goal is to serve the future hokage as their shadow ops master when Naruto was against how the ninja system dehumanized it's members. In addition, Boruto acts out like Naruto did but Naruto doesn't care, instead telling Boruto to endure the lonlieness when Naruto's greatest strength came through the bonds he established with others. Naruto is also continuing to keep the truth about the Uchiha a secret in order to serve the village, while Sasuke and Sakura have a sham of a marriage. And when the script for The Last was presented to him, he realized how awful Naruto and Hinata came off as so he gave his approval.

In the end, he set out to assassinate Naruto's character out of spite with the things he established for the sequel. SP, SJ and the rest didn't realize what they were given until it was too late while Kishi himself until recently was retained on Boruto's staff. Guess there is no such thing as a perfect crime.

His dream which he outright states in chapter 10 is to takeover Sasuke's role as the Supporting Shadow and support Salad when she become hokage. So if Bolt's dream is just to become her top "hitman"; it's kind of important we know what she will do as hokage.

This is another thing where Boruto goes against the spirit of the original manga. Well, most of it until the infamous final chapters. It was a reoccurring thing that the ninja system dehumanizes the people, instead turning them into weapons. It's why we get stuff like Itachi murdering his entire clan for the safety of Konoha, Gaara being born prematurely at the cost of his mother's life so they can seal the one tail into him, Zabuza having to kill his entire class in order to become a ninja... You get the point. It was always shown as a bad thing and one of Naruto's stated goals was to fix the system.

Except Naruto never does. Hell, Sasuke has spent years away from his family being nothing more than Naruto's secret weapon, doing dirty jobs Konoha cannot officially be linked to. We still see Konoha training children to be soldiers, and now the gadgets the movie once decried as cheating (never mind Naruto's Chunin exam featured a test based around cheating and not being caught) are being introduced as the newest stuff for our heroes to use. We have Naruto's son wanting nothing more for himself than to be a weapon for Sarada, with his whole arc being about learning to respect his father's ways and protecting Konoha.

Naruto became part of the problem, not the solution.

I've actually seen an anime where it's protagonist dedicated himself to being his friend's weapon. It did not end well for either of them, as they ended up being in a self-destructive codependent relationship.

Judging by that image they can't even fully admit how sexualizing that outfit truly is since they still soften it. In the manga the bottom of that thing clings to the body, in the fan image the bottom is skirt-like. Not only that but Salad's expression in that image is very innocent, like she doesn't know that the outfit is inappropriate. In the manga, it is clear she knows what she is wearing...or at least the artist does. As for the anime the first chance they got they switched over to Kishimoto's design for her and as far as I know haven't switch back.

 

Ikemoto should not have become kishimoto's successor. Yes, he can draw when it is his own original characters, but that not the point of becoming a successor to another persons manga. Look at dragonball super yes there are some differences but it still incredibly similar and recognizably dragonball in style.

 

As for Boruto, the sequel was thought up when Naruto was still ongoing. When Naruto was the second best manga in Weekly Shounen Jump -and was once a true rival to one piece the most popular series in Japan for over a decade at that point-, had a large loyal dedicated fanbase, had a large international fanbase that no other manga series could compare to, and was huge money maker for every company involved in its production. Why wouldn't they want it to continue or ever have a sequel to keep it going? Not only that but at the time it may have seen impossible for something to replace it. Three years later. My Hero Academy is the #2 manga in Weekly Shounen Jump and has become a huge hit internationally. The large fanbase was destroyed by the ending due to how they ended it, and Boruto is not interesting to most of the fans. The international fanbase has either move on to something else such as Attack of Titan/One Punch Man or don't pay for it. And it has become so worthless that most of the companies that once made profits off of it have given up on it, and hope that Black Clover will replace it, which it seems to have succeeded in Japan at least before it even got an anime.

 

The fact that Kishimoto has finally been allowed to leave is proof that most working on it, have given up on it.

Unless you take Kishi at his word for some strange reason, the ending of Naruto was crafted in order to facilitate the adventures of Boruto. SP and everyone else who profited off the IP all believed they could keep the gravy train a-runnin', but instead it's been a series of blunders they have had to do damage control.

They promoted Hinata because of her popularity despite not having a major role in anything, as well as made her the victor of the bloodiest shipping war since Han/Leia/Luke. Cue angry fans upset at this nonsensical pairing, that SP lied to them about the nature of The Last, wouldn't refund their money, crapped on the bonds the series was built upon and transformed the long-standing protagonist into someone seen as the greatest scumbag. The results of this put Hinata back into the background as they desperately try to pander with Team 7.

People are upset over Boruto's Dad being a bad father while no one likes Boruto. The movie already is canon and takes place well into Boruto's story, so instead they mess things up further by trying to make Naruto seem like a better dad...only he is going to turn into kitty litter later on due to already established canon. To save Naruto's reputation, they have to undermine Boruto's conflict and make him even less sympathetic. This is not how you create a protagonist people will support.

Then there's Sarada. Kishi made her to try and address criticisms of his writing being sexist, Then he turns around and hands her over to someone else, who then proceeds to sexualize her 12 year old body. The design is so negatively received SP steps in and modifies it, making it less pedo-riffic.

It's only going to be a matter of time before they're left having to tackle miniguns, lightsabers, and the fact Naruto was ultimately unable to fix the ninja world. The system is still in place to create suffering, yet the story is building up to a point where Boruto is the one defending the system and the bad guy is the one trying to tear it down, And with all the backtracking we've seen, I doubt they're going to make it so Boruto comes to realize just how flawed the system his father presided over actually is during Boruto Shippuden.

It's just one headache after another for a franchise well-past it's prime. They can't possibly be happy at how things have proceeded.

I have a fix. Boruto actually takes place within the IT, and he later comes to realize this. In the end he sacrifices himself in order to free the world, and Naruto gets the ending it deserves. Backtrack right to where everything went so very, very wrong.

At this point, myself, I just feel that these people who accept Hinata doing whatever she wants and considering it okay don't have a right to talk about any other female in any other series anymore. To me, they forgo that right and it means I never take their opinions seriously. You basically let a walking contradicting stereotype become your mascot to "feminine superiority" because "She got to be with the Hokage, a man she pined for and woreshipped like a god." It's just....

You know, people have their different opinions and I respect that, but one thing I cannot stand is hypocrites. Now yes we all can be hypocritical at times and most of the time it is a rare occurence, but when they are hypocrites all the time and then deny the hypocrisy behind just downright hypocritical logic is a massive pet peeve to me. I am a hypocrite at times, but if I am made aware of said hypocrisy I don't deny it or make excuses like "Well, this is a different situation." I hate when people did that to me growing up. "My problems are more important than yours because I said so and because they are different" even if the problem I have is the same as theirs.

It's like complaining that it is sexist to stereotype a woman because of her sex, but then say that all men are pigs and rapist because...they are men.

I get you man. As someone who has put up with enough kitten dealing with Gundam fans, I know.

The one thing that really gets me though is some of the comments I've seen concerning Boruto and Sarada. They go on about how Sarada has to drop the tsundere attitude and become more caring towards Boruto... Yeah. Never mind Boruto is a spoiled brat that the internet collectively craps on, Sarada has to change her personality and adopt a more Hinata-like one in order to be with him. But then again, Naruto had to adopt the persona of a scumbag to be with Hinata so whatever.

I can only imagine how triggered these folks would be at ArnoldxHelga, especially the fact that getting with Footballhead didn't erase her personality. She still has her issues, just now she has someone to help her.

Honestly, I can see how Hinata has slipped through the cracks and not become a target in the media.

Let's be real here, there is a certain image imprinted into our cultural mindset of those who watch anime. There's the male fans living in their parent's basement with their love pillow waifu, as well as the female fans who spend their time writing erotic fiction about Boy-kun A passionately making tender love to Boy-Kun B. On top of this, the representation of women has always been subject to criticism especially with the sexualization of underage girls. There's already a definite perception of cringe, and the Naruto fandom has always been a keen contributor to that.

You could say that these issues are more easily hid in Naruto due to it's kid appeal nature in a medium most people have already have written off, especially when there's more prominent anime that are easier to identify as "problematic" like Kill La Kill or Cross Ange. In contrast, Naruto is almost background noise in this discussion. It's prominent, sure, but it's also an anime no one really paid attention to in it's final years until it ended. And what's more, Hinata is not a prominent or heavily advertised character. She's not a member of Team 7, nor is she Akatsuki. Someone would have to get into Naruto in order to discover her, like a rabbit turd in a bowl of raisins. If Hinata was more prominent, I assure you there would have been far more outcry over Kishimoto's writing being seen as sexist.

And when it came to Hinata, she appealed to her fanbase for certain reasons. Why I can't say. They became fans of this character which I always feel leads to a heavy bias, selectively seeing what they want to see and ignoring what they don't. It's also the same principle that allows Naruto's current behaviors to fall outside of most people's attention. Remember, this is a fanbase that other parts of the anime fandom doesn't want much to do with writing the show off as generic shonen crap (aka background noise). The story can ultimately be about unhealthy relationships and broken morals as Kishi pulled turds out of his butt, but a significant part of the fanbase isn't going to care because they're only seeing the good while not thinking it through.

At this point, I feel like I'm discussing a Twilight ripoff. Hell, they would probably start arguing Naruto isn't meant to be a critical darling and is just supposed to be an enjoyable action series. After all, they defend NaruHina's lack of development with Naruto isn't supposed to be about romance while gushing about The Last because it's about NaruHina's romance. And like arguing Twilight, my brain is starting to hurt.

And then call her a "terrible woman" if she did get over him. *rolls eyes*
 

 

 

This was something in a Buzzfeed quiz that I saw someone take and this was one of the questions.
 

So, does this mean that everyone who supports NH and SS are misogynist? Hmmmm.

(By the way, I don't take buzzfeed seriously. This was just something I noticed.)
 

I think it's that some of them have this really unhealthy view of what being in a relationship should be rather than them hating women. It's less about the couple being partners through all the ups and downs, it's more about fawning over each other like two lovesick 12 year olds. One thing I keep seeing is that the woman should be caring towards the man rather than having a tsundere personality, and of course there's people arguing Hinata is more beautiful despite Kishi originally designing her to be rather plain-looking. Anyway, it seems like they want this character to be devoted to her man and that's pretty much Hinata. They don't want someone who can challenge him when he does wrong, they want someone who enables his behavior. The way these people treat the characters, all it does is objectify them as Naruto and Hinata become nothing more than prizes for the other one to win because these fans feel they're entitled to do so.

It's not that they want a wife for Naruto, it's more like they want... Cartman's mom. No wait, she can actually punish Eric at times.

Well its beyond madness now that's for sure it became "sickening twisted" and that's an understatement, I have literary no words to describe this crap anymore.

It's a case of being written in ignorance, not comprehending that ramifications or implications of the scene. And after a point, that's the Naruto series in a nutshell. Beneath the shonen exterior we have a bunch of messed up characters that would need various forms of psychiatric counseling at minimum, as this is a series built upon unhealthy relationships portrayed in a positive manner.

Hell, considering Boruto opened with some dude saying he would end the ninja world I can't help but feel that Naruto ultimately failed in his attempts at changing the system. It's still going on, creating suffering for others and we have some bloke coming out of nowhere to end it. It would even make you consider why aren't cheering for this guy rather that Boruto who seems to be about upholding the system (traditionalist Japanese social values aside). This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.

Just replace Ben with the disillusioned Naruto fanbase and soon to be Vader with Naruto. The lava is SP's and Boruto's continuing problems handling the series.

I really feel the issue is the critics are in love with what they believe the movie to be, rather than what it is. They want to see it as this progressive film for the modern era and they're going to rate it based on that movie in their head. They'll talk about how it's about letting go of the past, the evils of toxic masculinity, and promoting a multi-ethnic cast. I can go through all these supposed points of the movie and ether show how the execution was flawed or how the film contradicts it. Now they're trying to defend their praise by attacking Star Wars fans, Rotten Tomatoes, and just plugging their fingers in their ears.

It's the same thing I feel when people make a big deal out of Wonder Woman because it was a superheroine movie with a woman director. It wasn't a bad film, but the praise it gets feels odd to me as it was pretty average as far as superhero movies go. Personally, I liked the animated Wonder Woman film better.

Favorite cape film would have to be Superman II The Richard Donner Cut.

 

It also goes to my point of how Naruto didn't love himself enough to believe in Sakura's feelings for him.

This would be a very interesting thing to explore. Naruto spent his entire childhood struggling to gain acknowledgement from those around him but in the end he can't even acknowledge himself. He didn't feel himself worthy of Sakura-chan's love, so he rationalized it as a trick. He pushed her away and after learning of Hinata's feelings for him, pushed himself into a relationship with her. But that self-loathing is still there, that little voice in the back of his head telling him he wasn't good enough for the girl he really loved and settled. He tries to keep it together for the children, but the situation is too much. He can't stand himself for lying to himself, he has issues bringing children into the world through this marriage and even feels guilty over manipulating Hinata into thinking he loved her. It's why he throws himself into his job once he becomes Hokage, leading to a deteriorating situation at home. This could also factor into his relationship with Sarada, as she is the child of the woman he loved rather than those of the person he hates the most.

Granted, SP will never in a million years do this but it makes good fanfic fuel.

It also continues the trend of people just being completely unwilling to let go of the past and move on, letting it constantly influence their actions and choices in the present, which usually ends up having negative effects in the future.

Sakura was finally willing to let go of Sasuke and move on to Naruto based on the reality of things, showing her general trend, up to that point anyway, of growing up and maturing, but Naruto, being the naive, still immature idiot he CHOSE and STILL CHOOSES to be, just can't and refuses to understand this change since, initially, both he and Sakura were under the naive impression that they could simply bring Sasuke back and then everything would go right back to how they were before he left; restoring the status quo basically (which they both succeed at doing, sadly). It's almost like he believes that if HE HIMSELF is not the one to induce the change in a person in some way, then it MUST be fake or a lie.

It's pretty much a case of how Naruto is intended to be written coming into conflict with how he is actually written. He's supposed to grow into this compassion, empathetic character that other ninjas gather around. He can connect with his enemies and even help lead them out of the darkness, like Luke did for Vader or the "you're stronger than you think you are" scene from All Star Superman. He's supposed to go from the boy who wanted to be Hokage for the respect and recognition to a caring, selfless individual.

Then you get Naruto flipping out because people want Sasuke dead for all the things he's done. You get the revelation that his attraction to Sakura was just him trying to one-up Sasuke, something Sakura thought before she got to know him in a scene that painted her as a massive kitten in the eyes of the fandom. Naruto wanted Sasuke back because of his own desires. Even NaruHina fans repaint the situation of the Uzumaki home with Naruto looking at the troublemaker Boruto with an expression that says "that's my boy" rather than angrily yelling at him while telling him to endure his loneliness. Naruto is arguably just as selfish as he started the manga as, and I've even seen people say he only has empathy when he sees himself reflected in his foes. He doesn't put himself into other people's shoes, he only sees someone who has the same shoes as he does.

I kinda like to imagine Boruto accidentally time traveling back to Part I, where his actions and the revelations he brings to Team 7 causes him to retcon himself out of existence.

lol oh that is true but they don't care and will keep placing any hate on us.

They're stuck trying to defend the mess the series has become, of course they're upset. People didn't want Naruto to become Boruto's Dad, but Boruto's Dad is the one who married Hinata so they're stuck trying to justify a marriage where Naruto spends time working instead of his family. They're stuck trying to defend Hinata both not helping the situation at home because "she doesn't want to bother Naruto-kun," but also stuck trying to say Hinata is a scary force in the Uzumaki home. They're left out in the cold as SP try dearly to rectify an upset fanbase with "Boruto and Sarada should be together because they're like Naruto and Sakura," or Hinata is not the super powerful kunoichi they always believed she would become. They're stuck with the knowledge that Hinata raised Boruto who, let's face it, very people like and that's not even going into her not helping the situation at home.

And that's not even going into the retcons, asspulls, broken morals, unfortunate implications and other issues Naruto went through just to get to the ending. They just want to make the ending a matter of people being salty because of losing the shipping war, ignoring the myriad of other problems with Naruto's late game.