RulesofNature

Honestly, this whole conversation has been feeding my growing appreciation for MGS4. I saw an analysis video recently, due to a friend getting into the franchise and asking why I never beat 4, so I decided to check out some analysis and then give it a second chance.

While I've been familiar with the passive aggressive nature of the game towards MGS fans for a long time now, the video argued some pretty potent points. It wasn't just Kojima angrily giving fans what they said they wanted, as that's what Snake Eater was all about. How it was an apology to fans who didn't like MGS2, but at the same time it was telling them with it's ending they weren't the hero because they were ignoring the messages of MGS1 and 2 about living their own lives and not projecting onto the game. MGS4 was about the bastardization the franchise would undergo if it were to keep on continuing, accelerating Snake's aging to give the idea that it's not 4 but something like MGS 8 or something. This would allow Kojima to give the franchise a definitive final message, much like Tomino did with Turn A Gundam, while also showing fans what they said they wanted wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

If you want answers to the mysteries, you're going to make the setting more mundane. Everything being nano-machines is part of this.

If you want things to get bigger and more action packed, normal soldiers aren't going to be a thing anymore. See the Gekkos and other enemies who mop the floor with regular soldiers. Not to mention, rejecting peace to keep plunging the world into warfare (the post-Guns of the Patriots games all seem to go more into this direction).

If you want something like COD, then it's not going to be very Metal Gear now is it? Not to mention, real soldiers don't act like they're in an online COD match with infinite respawns and not suffering PTSD.

If you want the characters to have more adventures, then it's going to do a number on the lessons they have learned, Or you they could end up being unrecognizable or contradicting who they were before.

The game was built for stuff like that, acting as a grand finale for a franchise that was supposed to end two games ago. It was a warning of what not just Metal Gear could become, but any franchise. I mean, Fukui is taking the mystery out of UC Gundam with his stories, Terminator has been rendered meaningless due to Dark Fate killing John Connor, Luke Skywalker has been turned into a failure to prop up new leads... we could easily make a list of franchises that have fallen into the same traps Kojima warned us about. At least MGS learned that switching protagonists had to be done with care (see Raiden was meant to show us how awesome Solid Snake was, and Big Boss is meant to serve as a foil).

Naruto would be among them, full stop. I mean, I think about stuff like the Zabuza fight and how that was the high level the characters would work towards, but with how DBZ later fights got. We have messages and characters being assassinated or flanderized. Things got convoluted as all hell due to the series explaining some mysteries with stuff that came out of nowhere. The idea that the ninja system needs to be continued and Naruto's role in it. The story extended past where it should have ended so people could continue profiting off of it. The fact that Naruto failed to change the world like he was supposed to, as the series became soulless.

Naruto should have been allowed to die with dignity, instead they have to keep it on life-support to protect themselves. I'd say it was a damn shame if Kishi had ever really put himself into the writing instead of bowing to editors.

I give consent.  I'm really interested in this as FE fan, and as one who's taking the time to learn Japanese after how badly some some localizations have been.

Okay, first off the game uses Buddhist symbolism. Your avatar's personal class of Enlightened One? That's called Nirvana in Japan, which is supposed to be a state where someone extinguishes the three flames/poisons of greed, hatred and ignorance that plague humanity. The empty throne we see on the title screen, that's a Buddhist symbol associated with lions and deer. The flag you get in SS and VW is based on the Banner of Victory, a flag used to symbolize Buddha not falling to the temptation Mara's daughters and obtaining Nirvana as a result. That flag is, according to the creators in the Nintendo Dream interview released just after the DLC came out, the game's Fire Emblem, not the Crest of Flames that is possessed by Byleth, Edelgard and Nemesis.

In Japan, Crimson Flower is called Safflower. It's a very specific flower. Unlike the red rose mentioned in Edge of Dawn, which simply means love, a safflower means attraction. You find something attractive, and when you use it in a bouquet you're saying "I'm trying to catch you/good luck (usually with regards to marriage)." There's a difference between love and attraction, especially when the game is using the aforementioned symbol of the Banner of Victory.

The devs admitted they expected players to pick the Black Eagles first (and they believed most players would only play one route), and they also wanted to play a trick on the player. When joining Edelgard was too hard and the test players couldn't do it, they made accessing Safflower easier. This is in spite of them saying they wanted players to immerse themselves in Fodlan, and that Fodlan was built to support Silver Snow's story. Take all this into account and it paints a picture of Safflower, the route which ends with Byleth losing their Enlightened One status, as the route of ignorance. If Byleth actually fights Dimitri in the penultimate stage, he will call them out on walking down the path of the savage beast or something. The path of the beast in Buddhism refers to acting in greed, hatred or ignorance, the antithesis of Nirvana.

Safflower is the game tricking the player into siding the villain.

The devs also said in that interview that Safflower supposed to lead to what is known as Hadou, in contrast to Azure Moon leading to Oudou. This is based on China's Mandate of Heaven. Under the Mandate, the ruler is believed to have been given the privilege to rule by the Heavens and must act accordingly. They must put the people first, not rule in their own self-interests and instead rule benevolently. If they do so, the land will prosper. This is Oudou, and part of Oudou is overthrowing rulers who have fallen into Hadou. Hadou is a state where the rulers don't act in the interests of the people, are willing to sacrifice the people in order to get what they want, and enforce their rule through either political or military strength. They're rulers who lead with absolute power. The people are supposed to rise up against Hadou, rebelling against those rulers and overthrowing them is considered an act of justice.

Hubert's endings point to hadou, even in the English version there's confirmation of rebellions he's putting down from the shadows. Edelgard's endings also show her banning a play she hasn't seen, and in the Japanese she doesn't create a "free and independent" society. She creates one where the people are pushed to be self-reliant in spite of her whole "when people support each other we don't need gods" line in CF's final cutscene. Her pose in the painting at the end of the route is a direct reference to Napoleon's coronation portrait. complete with inverted Hand of Justice as she stomps over the flags of those she's conquered. The idea she's trying to become Fodlan's supreme ruler is also highlighed in the last chapter of White Clouds before going to Safflower, "Onset of a Battle for Supremacy" rather than power struggle, as well as her personal battalion. Her being referred to a Hegemon in Byleth's CF title, her Hegemon Husk form and Claude's comments to Hubert in Japanese VW (It's not "Your military rule ends here" like in the English dub), all signify this. Likewise, exploration dialogue also pushes that the army in Safflower are really keen on Edelgard unifying the continent under her rule, that she's starving her people to support her army, using Crest Beasts and that the people were against this war. She even takes control of the Church as revealed by a couple of endings.

Tying to the fact Safflower is supposed to be the route of ignorance, Edelgard is depicted more as a manipulator. Not only does she lie about Arianrhod, her story is contradicted all over the place. It's not meant to hold water either, as Silver Snow was the route the worldbuilding was done to support. As the player invests in understanding Fodlan, this should become clear. Safflower shows that Edelgard is a liar, a genocidal one considering her saying "Rhea and the Children of the Goddess need to be obliterated" in private right before offering Rhea the chance to surrender. A line in the Japanese confirming that Edelgard is manipulating TWSITD in Safflower was changed to them manipulating her, while the NPC talking about unrest in the Empire has the line about how this is calming down due to Edelgard's "information campaign" was cut entirely. Just that one sentence, the rest of the line is still in the English dub.

Edelgard;s voice acting sounds more harsh and mature than her Japanese counterpart, which kinda ruins the effect. We're meant to be taken off guard by what she's doing and saying, not by her cutesy moments. Similarily, Rhea's VA was told to act unemotional with a burning rage under the surface, compared to how her Japanese counterpart sounds like she's breaking down as you progress through Safflower.

There's other changes to the script. Dorothea doesn't sound as desperate in the English version, and we had Bernie tied to a chair by her father before that was changed to something more accurate to the Japanese script (which caused people to cry censorship). During the Holy Tomb in Japanese Verdant Wind, Edelgard makes it clear she intends to use the Creststones not destroy them. Also, Claude admits he doesn't like her in Japanese. Ferdinand fighting Hubert outside of Safflower went from "I will remove her from power, even if I have to lay down my life to do so" to "It doesn't matter what I think, I have my orders." Hanneman's description to Dorothea about what the nobility was originally supposed to be went from "people with knowledge who seek more knowledge, while guiding and protecting their people" to "the nobility was supposed to be a meritocracy."

The English script downplays the subtext, and alters lines to make Edelgard seem softer than she was intended. The game wasn't meant to be some morally grey "everyone's a hero in their own story, it's all a matter of perspective" sort of deal. Edelgard is meant to be the villain even when you side with her. She's supposed to be so stubborn that she doesn't get character growth, if anything joining her is meant to make characters into worse people (comparing lines between routes), and is supposed to be the same in Safflower as she is in the other routes. When she tells you the story, it's not the truth. It's just what someone who is a demonstrable liar is saying is the truth. She's supposed to be immature and genocidal. She's not supposed to be the good guy.

Edelgard's most die hard fans hate this. It tells them that they were wrong, that they didn't understand the game, stories or characters. Dimitri, Claude and Rhea are all made out to be good guys, while Edelgard is singled out as the bad one contrary to what Crimson Flower said. Edelgard isn't the sad, innocent victim they wanted her to be, nor is the world she's fighting for one we should support. Siding with Edelgard isn't about free will, it's about Byleth being led astray. You get the idea. This is why they keep claiming "death of the author" to erase canon and instead replace it with their own fanfics, sorry, analysis. Stuff Edelgard does in canon, they argue she doesn't. Dimitri's mental illness is erased, instead his arc is about overcoming toxic masculinity...and he's still not a good guy because he's crazy and will pass on his craziness to his children. Claude's arc isn't about him learning to trust people, he's just using them and is the real Imperialist. Etc.

Well the only time you seem to come back here recently is to complain about her. I miss you complaining about things in general.

 

...

 

People write a theory they have in their head and people that have similar thoughts go along with it. Even if it contradicts the story entirely. Though, it normally doesn't matter since they don't effect the story. Not the case for Naruto when you can tell SP staff have their own fanfic theories and desires that influence the audience and Kishimoto rarely put his foot down enough to stop it. His large indifference towards the anime is part of why he is in the situation he is in right now. Also, modern western cartoon but that's because their staff are filled with fanfic shippers writers that listen to fans too much.

I've been busy lately, and let's face it. I stopped reading Naruto after 700 dropped. Hell, at this point I've even given up reading Naruto fanfics. I'm just not really into this fandom anymore. It's not like the creators care about the story or characters, it's all money to them. I just can't be bothered to give a damn when Naruto is that obvious about it. I can't pretend the creator had some vision or something besides making bank. It's an awful feeling.

As kittened up as the Edelgard stuff is, because some of the things people say to defend her are pretty kittened up, I can at least see the creators cared and tried to do something. The Japanese version is a lot more consistent in identifying her as a villain protagonist through lines that were changed in the translation as well as symbolism that the West isn't as familiar with. Like, if I'm going to explain how the game got screwed over in translation and by the fandom, I'll need you to consent first before I go off. Just, fair warning.

Anyway, I think a big part of it is that people  go to fandoms in order to indulge themselves. They like the content, it appeals to them, and fanworks allow them to have even more of it. And when you write fanworks, you can indulge yourself. You can change canon events, allow people to live happily ever after or punish those you feel deserving of it. The more this happens, the more the perception within the fandom is colored. You stop looking at the work itself, and instead turn your attention to the fandom surrounding it, to the point where the line between canon and fanon is blurred within the fandom.

Not to mention, people really like to confuse "Death of the Author" with "The text says whatever I want it to say."

You mean with twitter or the fandoms part?

Because the fandoms....they don't really show me anything or they gave me a vague scene from one of the movie, but when I show a manga page they call it "non-canon." I never make statements without a back-up source, but these people can't give me anything. They rather try and debunk my statements than provide anything to back up their own statement.

Yeah, fandoms can be crap.  Like, I've seen people hold up a guy's fanfic to say "you need to read this to understand the game and characters," when not only does the guy get so much wrong it's not even funny he tells people to not listen to the creators. Because, it turns out, the creators have said things that completely blow his interpretation of the game out of the water. Like, people legit use the fanfic to argue what the game is saying and the sad thing is that parts of the fandom treat the guy as an authority, saying he writes or understands the characters better than the writers actually do.

I am not joking. You have to argue against an effin' fanfic when discussing the game's canon. It's surreal to say the least.

 

My issues with Talk-no-Jutsu come down to two main issues. The first, and probably the smallest, was that after the Pain fights be became a rudderless, reactionary character and Talk-no-Jutsu became something he did. We all knew he'd do, we all knew it'd always work. It had a "here we go again" feel to it and felt empty. This is less a talk-no-jutsu problem and more of a issue of Naruto accomplishing he primary goals in all but name only long before the series reached its conclusion, but it drug the talking with it. 

 

The second, and far bigger issue, is that it was surface level junk with obvious flaws that the series took great pains to avoid dealing with. Obito's was easily the worst. I still can't think of a more cringe inducing line Obito is a cool guy. 

I honestly feel it dug into a deeper flaw with Naruto as a character. I mean, the series tried to make him a feely genius rather than a thinky one. That this guy might be an idiot, but he was empathetic allowing him to understand the hearts of others. But really, it was all a lie. When it came to Talk-no-justu, it eventually became Naruto seeing himself in others. How they were meant to be like him, except they broke bad. To me, the fact Naruto would relate opponents back to his own feelings didn't feel empathetic. He wasn't putting himself in their shoes, he was thinking they were wearing the same shoes as he was. It took away his empathy, and made him more self-centered as a result.

The Talk-no-jutsu is pretty much the same thing as Kira Yamato's "pacifism" in Gundam SEED Destiny. Sure, it looks and sounds good on paper, but the second you start analyzing it things fall apart. With Kira, we at least got some good crossover games that tackled these things and at times even gave him good character growth. Even effin' Lacus ended up rebutting his "fighting is bad" arguments in one game. But that happened because of the nature of those games. They weren't about to sacrifice the integrity of other series and their leads just to make Kira look good. But with Naruto... that'll never happen.

oh I'm very nice until someone else is not.   It's not about being right or wrong and I can handle a disagreement. But it's easy to see if someone wants a showdown with you or have a chat. When someone posts a thought out analysis, and the other says "Do you actually mean *insert outrageous opinion*?", people will never stop clarifying themselves. That Cathy Newman interview with Jordan Peterson rings a bell. So if I think only oppressed people can be sad..you decide.

 

In any case, Naruto unfairly compared two struggles when they were apples and oranges. I understand that the ending butchered the characters, but the hero and heroine never brought the branch system up again, and Neji dying for them makes it even worse --- so they deserve all my booing. : ) 

It's kinda par for the course at this point. While the system was always the problem, Naruto as a series tried to backpedal away from it as it geared up for Boruto. The Uchiha genocide and Konoha's role in it is swept under the rug for the good of the village. The Hyuuga branch family slavery thing was just dropped and never followed up on. All those examples of the system killing people's souls in it's attempt to turn them into killing machines? Now we have Boruto, who wants to serve as the guy who does all the jobs that the village can't publically be tied to. They can dress up the fact they're training child soldiers all they want, but it's still about putting kids in life or death situations. And Naruto being a distant father to his kids in order to run the village makes me feel like he's the type of guy pre-timeskip Naruto would have chewed out. Naruto didn't change the world, he just became another cog in the machine. Then there's letting Orochimaru run free to help the village despite his history of human experimentation.

Honestly, it's a little unsettling when you stop to actually examine Konoha while the series wants to make it out to be this wonderful place. Yet it's early depictions were so bad fanfic writers were making stories about how Naruto should just burn it down. Like, if Konoha were depicted performing acts that would be considered war crimes IRL I'm sure the series would try to spin them as being a good thing. But that's what happens when you become morally bankrupt, nothing is off limits to you.

Because they empathize with the sympathetic aspects of her character such as her shy nature, low self-esteem, and her issues with her father and conflate them to ridiculous proportions.  

Not to mention, people identified with Naruto and projected onto him. Sasuke and Sakura became irredemable jerks in their eyes, sometimes Kakashi as well, the villagers would beat and abuse him, he was really a genius who had to hide his skill, etc. All common in early fanfic. You take that, then add one person who is "in love" with him and watch her skyrocket towards goddesshood in their eyes.

Kinda says a lot about how immature the early Naruto fanbase was.

And its kitten like that which does piss me off so much that it makes me want to scream out in rage.

I know, right?

Like, I've spent my time with love triangles or harem romcoms, and the fact is there are times when it does work. When each potential partner is given their moments to shine, making them all seem like a viable romantic option. I call it the balanced harem, where even if my horse in the race loses they still put up a good fight and the actual winner has, you know, earned it rather than being handed it (coughNaruNarusegawacough). If a member is there but is given no moments, no development, no arc whatsoever, then they're just padding.

Except for Hinata, because somehow she won.

You could even say Shiro Amada is similar to that. He tries to not kill people after meeting Aina, but ultimately does when push comes to shove, and there are consequences for their actions. In the end, he and Aina never get the fighting to stop and, instead, are forced into hiding together since they were now deserters or even traitors under the laws.

With Kira, it's a bit different.

SRW opined that the way Kira fights is meant to make him look good. He can disable numerous mobile suits at once without breaking a sweat, and the show uses this to show how powerful he is. However, when an opponent can give him difficulty he instead opts to go for the kill. In essence, Kira's disabling of MSs is used as a power gauge by the show, which creates some implications about his mercy. Likewise, he gets called out for acting as an aggressor, going around starting fights while never attempting any form of communication. He maintains radio silence as he attacks people, and then the show acts like they're in the wrong for wanting him taken out.

Even Dynasty Warriors Gundam got into this. Dynasty. Warriors. Gundam. A lot of the arguments used against him in those games are the same ones used against Celestial Being in 00s1.

He's not a pacifist, but the show treats him like one without realizing how much it undermines it's own messages. Likewise he's also stated to be the next stage of human evolution due to the SEED factor, which really raises some red flags despite him claiming to be a normal guy. This is a guy being presented as a paragon when...when...when his talk-no-jutsu is somehow worse than Naruto's. Because as bad as Naruto has become, he at least talks to others during it and emphasize rather than acting like an emotionless doll.

The movies been resurrected from production hell. Likely because time has passed and people are nostalgic for SEED. Part of me wants them to address these things, since I really liked Kira in SRW Z when they did that. But it's the same director using his late wife's scripts, so I kinda doubt it. Imagine if they release the movie only for it to reignite all these arguments again after all this time.

Gundam AGE has its flaws but it really is well done when it's showing like what you said

AGE is a guilty pleasure of mine, but I will defend Kio. He's not "Kira done worse," he's "Kira but an actual pacifist who doesn't drop his ideals when it gets hard and the show doesn't treat him like he's the bestest evah." Like, if you know what Kira was called out on in crossover games, Kio makes a lot of sense. Kio is the franchise acknowledging those criticisms.

"Oh, Kio gets his allies killed." SRW says Kira would do the exact same thing because, by going around attacking everyone who stands in his way, he's not making friends. He's giving people reasons not to listen to him. Kio does not act as an aggressor. Besides, how is Kio responsible for an ally dying when he's fighting enemies on the other side of the battlefield?

Besides, those games really hold Kira accountable for all the guys who die as a consequence of his actions. The fact they avoid those colonies getting nuked because he defended Orb and allowed the genocidal maniac to get away isn't adapted says a lot.

"Kio prevents his allies from killing enemy pilots." Enemy pilots whose machines he has disabled. You know, there are laws surrounding killing enemy soldiers when they can't fight back. Mika brutalizing Carta Issue isn't something we should be cheering, it's likely a war crime because of the surrounding circumstances. The fact Kira gets called out for disabling pilots and leaving them unable to defend themselves on a battlefield is called out a lot.

"Kio's struggles defeating his enemies," Yeah, because he's not out to try and wipe them all out. He's trying to get them to understand his point through his words, rather than simply overpowering them to support his Talk-no-Justu. Because pacifism is about rejecting the idea of violence and war being used to solve problems, it's more than just not killing. The fact is, Kira drops his morals whenever he deems an enemy too strong by saying he doesn't have any choice but to kill them. Kira compromises his message of "fighting doesn't solve anything" because, and SRW doesn't sugarcoat this, he's a terrorist.

Kio isn't a power fantasy, and that's a good thing.

Komi-san just had it's male lead reject a member of his love triangle when she confessed, and that's in Shonen Sunday. Considering Naruto was criticized as being the worst scumbag over the revelations of The Last, they probably don't want MCs to lead girls on.

I feel like part of what went wrong was a matter of timing. Naruto started at the turn of the millennium, a few years after Evangelion showed anime studios that the show itself could be a viable product to sell, when anime was just taking off in the West, manga was rare and those left unflipped even rarer, light novels were nowhere near as popular in Japan, and late night anime wasn't really a thing.

I feel like part of it was that the people funding Naruto had no real idea where the industry was heading as these changes were happening. They saw it's popularity in the West, wanted to be a part of that large market, and put their money there. You know, like Hollywood is now doing to China. But they didn't realize what the American market actually was, that anime was still niche over there and that weebs are well-beyond the level of your typical otaku in Japan. So what they wanted suffered a disconnect to the domestic market, who sided more NS.

If Naruto had come out a few years later or earlier, I feel it would have been a different story. Either it would have been more cemented by the time it reached America, or they would have had a better feel for what the American market actually is like through stuff like Gundam SEED flopping there.

It makes me wonder how if the fandom would still be as toxic as it is right now if NaruSaku had become canon instead. I imagine it would be a net positive as a lot of the people you are talking about would have cleared out and most NaruSaku would still be engaged with the fandom instead of a great majority of them leaving the Naruto fandom permanently.

 

It still makes me sad how many people have left our fandom. I guess it's hard to care anymore when the canon isn't providing us anymore material and Kishimoto disrespected us so badly.

I don't really think it would fix things. Like Naruto's problems are more than just who the MC decided to hook up with. There are just so many wasted opportunities, broken morals, Kishimoto pulling stuff out of his ass, the series had some genuine problems and had attracted many haters because of them. If we were to throw the sinking of the SS Naruhina on top of that, I feel like the series would have suffered backlash anyway. Only difference would be a bunch of Hinata fanboys going nuts over how the ending screwed things up, those obsessive shippers would end up attacking the show and it's fans because things didn't go as they wanted it to.

The show would no doubt be healthier in Japan and that's what SJ would care about, but it would still be a massive headache for us.

Question... if you rewrote Naruto, where would you rewrite it and how would you tie NS into it?

Where? Under the cherry blossoms of a cool spring night, full moon lovingly hanging overhear as the wind carries the sounds of a far away city.

How? Make it so that it's not just Sakura recognizing Naruto's achievements, but also his hardships. Like, have a scene where he tries to put on his idiot clown mask and Sakura just flat out tells him no and asks him what he is really feeling causing him to break down into tears. Stuff like that, illustrating how Sakura understands who Naruto really is, compared to how others see what he wants them to see. Even bring up that Hinata has no clue as to what Naruto is actually thinking, while Sakura does.

Oh that simple. Like Foreverworld and his viewer, he forgot that Naruto is still a children cartoon. Not solely for lonely Otaku. So the idiot wanted a sex scene where Naruto and Hinata get is on for an episode (if that not a start to more of those episodes) with Nana and Junko voice acting it to celebrate years of work in order to get them together.

 

Forgetting that it would turn Naruto from a young boys' children cartoon...in to Hentai.

 

You can imply sex in children cartoon it just has to be very subtle. A used cigarette by the bedside like they did in hollywood for years before they could show sex.

 

Hopefully the next fire emblem will come out soon.

Yeah. People really, REEEALLLY need to learn that Japanese TV isn't pervy anime 24/7. Most of the shows they like air way late at night so children don't see it. Hell, Gundam IBO got in hot water with parents over it's implied sex and the fact Atra got pregnant. Show got investigated by some standards board and everything, and only got let off because while the characters looked young it was "clear" that they were actually older than they looked.

Naruto and Hinata boinking on TV, not just where kids can see it but it being marketed towards those kids? Never going to fly. They are not going to expose children to pornography just to appease horny fanboys.

As for the next FE, nothing on last night's Nintendo Direct. Considering how 3H was delayed twice and how it probably cost more than Fates to produce only to sell around the same level (and with front-loaded sales to boot), they're probably having some serious discussions on what to do next. I mean, it's kinda clear they expected more DLC out of it than we ended up getting. The fact Square is releasing their own SRPG that people have been calling "3H if it was good" that is unafraid to punch the player in the demo from what I've heard, IS has some competition.