flash vs a god
Goku vs Supes is dumb because there's many different versions of Supes and I don't think Goku would lose to all of them.
Well, versus debates are dumb in general, but yeah.
There are many different Goku as well. Dragonball Super actually muddles this too and plays with canon so much that we are left asking "What is canon?" We have Anime Goku, Manga Goku, Movie Goku, and even Super Anime Goku, and Super Manga Goku. (And yes, they are all different. So different that even the DBZ fandom can't decide which one is canon.)
All of them have a range of power and abilities that one could argue and blah blah blah. Let's take some examples:
Anime Goku is shown that he is only as fast as lightspeed using his Instant Transmission.
Manga Goku is shown that he can't lift 1000 tons even with his new forms.
Movie Goku's powers are so inconsistent that they basically do whatever they want, but if Ressurection of F is anything to go by, Goku is a glass canon that can easily be taken down by a blindside to the chest and required outside help to win. (Frieza won that fight, but because of a cop-out of time manipulation that wasn't even from Goku....Goku wins.) It also kind of proves that Goku and Vegeta cannot survive a planet explosion as Vegeta was confirmed killed when Freeza blew up the planet.
Now we have the new Broly movie anbd we don't know what this will add or subtract or...what. What if Goku gets taken out by getting hit with a rock to the face?
However, we can pick and choose till the cows comes home, but I think we all want to pick the strongest Superman vs the Strongest Goku. That is what everyone agrees upon. If we want to go into this kitten debate by picking and choosing which Superman vs which Goku thenyou will never reach an answer.
"How about we pick Cosmic Armor Superman vs Saijan Saga Goku?" See, but that is stupid and we know this is stupid.
Same thing can be with Flash vs Sonic.
Which Flash vs which Sonic and there are MANY different Flashs and Sonics just as well. Although, everyone loves using the Archie comic version even though it is really inconsistent and has Sonic at one point using Bugs Bunny/Looney Toons physics.
it's way better and shows that he is way faster. In Sonic's feat, he crossed the Cosmic Interstate to the other end, which between each zone was described to be over 100,000 lightyears apart(to a short exit), which spans over millions of different universes, and ended up on the other end, raced and fought Anti-Sonic around Anti-Sonic's world multiple times, and still made it back to save his world in less than an hour, Flash's feat does NOT compare to that at all. Besides, Flash didn't even rescue everyone, with the type of speed Sonic displayed above, he would have rescued everyone on that island with ease.
who said anything about him accessing it? I am talking about what he did on the Cosmic Interstate, which actually spans over 100,000 lightyears between each universe, and has over millions of universes linked between it. What he did has every bit to do with speed. Not to mention, he did something similar when he actually ran through 1,000 of those universes and found each Sonic from each alternate universe and made it back to his world in less than a few hours, casually.
believe me, The Flash is NOT faster than Sonic, at all.
I guessing you mean this
But, and here is the thing, the Sonic Archie comics kind of did whatever they wanted and was a jumbled mess of the games, the cartoons, and more. There is a WHOLE thread that someone has brilliantly done when talking about the DB battles with Sonic team in this. And the Archie comics have been rebooted too and some stuff ceased to exist canocially. So....yeah.
Just read this. It is REALLY long, but it shows everything as a break down.
Basically, the Flash and Sonic are no different. In fact, they both have a speed force with Sonic's being the "Emerald Force" or whatever. Point is, alot of things are taken out of context and to really go in and look at some of the things going on shows that these Archie comics are not really that great of feats when you dive into details.
Take example your comment about Sonic crossing the multiverse usng the Cosmic interstate really doesn't tell us anything. There was gaurenteed different sonics that were slower and yet still were able to be on that interstate and corss the universe in hours or minutes. So was it Sonic's real speed or was it really the cosmic interstate purposely shortening distances to help sonic along. As even Sonic himself said "It was a short cut." And Sonic took the shortest cut of all.
We also have this:
I mean, let's really think about this. This is why I love not looking at feats or whatever because kittens gets muddled...instead I look at core of characters. You can have all the powers in the universe, but if you are stupid or easily gullible to the point that people can take advantage of you...well, how powerful are you really?
Take example, even if Goku might be stronger than Superman...Superman is definitly smarter. Imagine Superman using some of Goku's weaknesses against him to his advantahe such as his ability to be tenacious. So tenacious that he trips and causes his own downfall. How do you take that into consideration?
You can have Sonic vs Flash....the sonic could be faster or stronger, but the Flash is smarter and can use things to his advantage. He can perceive events less than an attosecond. Can Sonic do that? As much OP as Sonic's golden form is, there is a limit and a time duration that Flash could use this advantage. Do we take that into consideration?
This is why core of their character is so important because some of these characters have been outsmarted. Sonic supposedly has all these OP powers and yet, some how Dr. Robotnik is a threat to him? How? What is stopping Sonic from snapping his fingers and just ending it all? Noone ever takes this into consideration.
Superman could end all crime if he wanted, but as shown he doesn't want to just kill people to stop crime which many villains take advantage of and yet Superman still come sout on top and even lives to 5 billion years in the future.
What do we take from all of this? How many fights did Superman win in those 5 billion uyears and what beings did he face? We have comics of Superman surviving the beginning and the end of universes and yet he is fine. No doubt someone or something tried to kill him and yet he survived long enough to live to outlive gods in his universe. Again, what does this all prove?
It proves feats are pointless in the end and that the author is king. The author can do or say whatever he wants and create things that in reality borderline ridiculousness.
"One minute Sonic is so powerful he can anything with reality....but oh here comes a robot monkey with a wrench that knocked him out with a blow to the head oh and it is canon. This actually happened." An author does this and what...are we to say that Sonic is weak to wrenches or do you think this is an outlier that is complete BS? Do you pick and choose what is canon and what isn't at this point?
It's like that "Goku destroying the universe in 3 punches" BS. One, it only happened when he was fighting with Beerus and he really didn't destroy anything. Every other fight, including stronger forms, shows that this is not what is happening. He doesn;t collide punches with anyone else and people say "OMG, he is destroying the universe." I mean, if that were really true...wouldn't the gods say "Hey, Goku, you're too much of a threat to the universe and are breaking balances and kitten...so we need you to stop fighting?"
"He shook the infinite void." How do you shake a void? How do you shake nothingness? And how can he shake an infinite void, but then can't take a puny laser to the chest?
You see how really stupid this all is? Like, after a while there are some things you really can't take into considering because they are so ridiculousness that you can't even quantify it in their own universe. You can quantify Superman lifting the planet, you can't quantify Goku supposedly shaking "nothingness." If it sounds stupid...it probably is.
If you have to use feats...use quantifiable feats and not something that can't be really be measured.
"Goku shook a void" and Superman lifted a book of Infinite pages. These are both ridiculous feats that have really no quanitfiable measure...although I'd say the book of infinite pages is a bit more quantifiable than "shaking a void," but it is still ridiculous.
What about Sonic and Flash? Okay...well....how can Sonic go slower than light and yet travel multiple universes? That's unquantifiable. How can flash perceive events in less than an attosecond when the shortest time measured is 12 attoseconds? How do you compare them? I don't see Sonic perceiving events shorter than an attosecond, but I do see Flash traversing time and space in seconds as well. So what does this mean? So Flash is not durable enough to take a punch for Superman, but can withstand practically the energy required to break time and space? And I am talking about power they can do on their own. Sonic does some of these things, but it requires outside forces and stuff that he doesn't do himself. Sonic has never ran faster than time without some outside assitance like the chaos emerald's and more. Knuckles can use the chaos emerald's too and shown just as much. Does that mean Knuckles can beat Sonic if he absorbes the power too?
*sigh* Do you see what I mean guys? Most people use generalizations, but keep going deeper and you can find many different variables that can easy tip the scale in a character's favor.
We also have the argument of Universe logic vs Universe logic. "Well, if Superman was in DBZ he would not be as powerful or such and such character is only as powerful in their own universe." Okay, but this applies to everyone. I could say that Goku is nowhere near that strong if he was in the DC universe, but that is not a fair assessment not is it? Besides, Superman has been shown to go into other universes and still be JUST as powerful. Superman was in the Looney Tunes universe with Bugs Bunny and his powers didn't flux. He was in Marvel and his powers didn't flux. He was in several universe not of his own and yet his powers did not flux. So unless stated otherwise like Flash in Marvel doesn't have powers because the speed does not exist in Marvel or how the Infinity Stones are inert in DC universe....then you can't say that a character is not as strong in another universe as they are in their own.
I can easily say that Goku would be much weaker in DC because Ki energy does not behave the same way in the DC universe as it does in DBZ/Super. You know why? Because several character do use Ki attacks and they are nowhere near planet busting. Iron Fist is a Ki user in Marvel, but you don't see him blowing up planets and shaking voids.
Point is, Core of character is probably the most accurate of them all to determine character outcomes.
Superman is not meant to lose and yet Goku loses most of his fights or requires massive amounts of outside help to win. So a 1v1 with Superman would have Goku losing.
The Flash is meant to be the fastest man alive to the point that he create multiverses just by running too fast. Sonic doesn't exhibit such a force...at least not without some major help from the chaos emeralds or more. The Flash wins because the dude can outrun time. What's stopping him from going back in time and killing sonic as a baby?
I hope you all really see what I mean here. You have to look at the purpose of the character and not feats because feats merely show what the author wanted them to do and besides some authors only do things for the sake of drama and NOT because that is what would happen. Look at Toriyama and the Buu Saga where he basically said "kitten all" to logic. How many times did the rules keep changing in this arc? More often than I can count.
But if people really want to use feats, then let's use feats:
Oh look, Goku and Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons. Superman has been shown to lift a planet. Superman is stronger....Superman wins. Boom. See how easy that is?
This is where people would make an argument like "That is BS because Goku has pushed a mountain. which weighs 178,500,000,000 tons and the manga is not written by Toriyama." Yeah well, sorry, but a 178.5 billion tons doesn't hold a candle to 6.6 sextillion tons and well, I think we both can agree that Toriyama oversees the manga version so...yeah Toriyama either is not good at math or he doesn't care to. Unless we want to go back into the argument of the Boruto manga vs the Boruto movie of "What Kishimoto wrote vs what Kishimoto supposedly supervises."
Do you see how easy it is to debunk stuff because a writer does something to throw off the scales all because they don't care? And I am not even looking at character errors or printing errors such as the time Superman blew up a shadow moon with the same size as our moon, but Batman accidentally gives the scale as smaller which was an editor error.
If you want to use quantifiable feats to see who would win in a fight in a Vs Battle, then use feats that are backed-up ON PANEL and not just conjecture like "Well, if this ability increases his power by 50x then he can lift 50x more." Okay, but if Goku can lift 40 tons and you times it by 50, it doesn't come out to "billions, trillions, sextillions of tons." Multipliers are NOT a quantifiable way to show strength because I can do that too. "Superman can easily lift planets just by staying 15 minutes in the sun....imagine what 10,000 years in the sun lets him lift. It is unimaginable strength." People say Superman Prime is featless, but want to assume Goku's feats because "power scaling." I can power scale with Superman too. "Superman in base form can lift multiverses, survive black holes, tear and patch holes in reality, and move just as fast as the Flash can....imagine how much he would be if he was at Full potential," but people don't accept this because they want cold hard facts and panels of Superman doing things and not just conjecture. I don't understand how they want to assume so much for one character based off little to no evidence, but when another characters SHOWS what they can do...all of a sudden it does not count because...stupid reasons they give.
I mean, Death Battle's Goku vs Superman is the most accurate out of any argument I have ever seen because they want to use quantifiable feats, but at the same time realize that these characters have done ridiculous amount of stuff to the point that you can't quanitify anymore. So you go by the purpose of the character. Sure, I guess ine a few comics or manga the character could get more powerful, but that goes both ways. In Goku vs Superman 1, it was before Super...and then after Goku vs Superman 2...they released Strange Visitor. Both Goku and Superman got stronger and do even more ridiculous things. So DB, at least this one, has it right...A man who can overcome any limit vs a man who has no limits in the first place. Core of their character. They are are strong as the author wants them to be, but between Goku and Superman...Goku actually does struggle power wise, while Superman's struggle is more about moral standing. Superman will win one way or another....Goku can lose and has shown to lose many battle even now.
So...yeah I am done with arguments of Vs Battle arguments now. Core of character.
Saitama and Superman can beat Goku because they are not meant to lose or struggle and Goku is.
Flash can probably beat Sonic because Flash doesn't need outside help to manipulae time and space...(Plus people love the speed steal argument.)
and so on and so forth. Please, give me any Vs Battle and I can settle it by looking at the core of character.
End of discussion.
P.S. I want to add this because I hate when people throw this "If he has infinite strength, then why does he look like he struggles to lift something?" Okay, well, here is the thing. Just because you have infinite strength does NOT mean the universe has infinite durability. Something people keep forgetting that object have a threshold of how much weight they can endure before breaking. What if I see you struggle with a delicate vase? "Oh look how weak you are you can't even lift a vase." See how stupid that sounds? So a character with infinite strenght is not sturggling to lift or move something. They struggling to move something without breaking it. It's called having control over your strength and honestly, that requires a lot of training and concentration. Flash can run as fast as he wants, but he doesn't want to break stuff like reality and time so he limits how fast he runs so as to not break kitten. So please, take something like this into consideration.
Edited by James S Cassidy, 13 July 2018 - 07:37 PM.