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#50221 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 06:32 PM

flash vs a god

*ahem*
https://comicnewbies...e-god-of-death/
 

 

Goku vs Supes is dumb because there's many different versions of Supes and I don't think Goku would lose to all of them.

 

Well, versus debates are dumb in general, but yeah.

There are many different Goku as well. Dragonball Super actually muddles this too and plays with canon so much that we are left asking "What is canon?" We have Anime Goku, Manga Goku, Movie Goku, and even Super Anime Goku, and Super Manga Goku. (And yes, they are all different. So different that even the DBZ fandom can't decide which one is canon.)

All of them have a range of power and abilities that one could argue and blah blah blah. Let's take some examples:
Anime Goku is shown that he is only as fast as lightspeed using his Instant Transmission.

Manga Goku is shown that he can't lift 1000 tons even with his new forms.
Movie Goku's powers are so inconsistent that they basically do whatever they want, but if Ressurection of F is anything to go by, Goku is a glass canon that can easily be taken down by a blindside to the chest and required outside help to win. (Frieza won that fight, but because of a cop-out of time manipulation that wasn't even from Goku....Goku wins.) It also kind of proves that Goku and Vegeta cannot survive a planet explosion as Vegeta was confirmed killed when Freeza blew up the planet.

Now we have the new Broly movie anbd we don't know what this will add or subtract or...what. What if Goku gets taken out by getting hit with a rock to the face?

However, we can pick and choose till the cows comes home, but I think we all want to pick the strongest Superman vs the Strongest Goku. That is what everyone agrees upon. If we want to go into this kitten debate by picking and choosing which Superman vs which Goku thenyou will never reach an answer.

"How about we pick Cosmic Armor Superman vs Saijan Saga Goku?" See, but that is stupid and we know this is stupid.

Same thing can be with Flash vs Sonic.
Which Flash vs which Sonic and there are MANY different Flashs and Sonics just as well. Although, everyone loves using the Archie comic version even though it is really inconsistent and has Sonic at one point using Bugs Bunny/Looney Toons physics.

 

 

it's way better and shows that he is way faster. In Sonic's feat, he crossed the Cosmic Interstate to the other end, which between each zone was described to be over 100,000 lightyears apart(to a short exit), which spans over millions of different universes,  and ended up on the other end, raced and fought Anti-Sonic around Anti-Sonic's world multiple times, and still made it back to save his world in less than an hour, Flash's feat does NOT compare to that at all. Besides, Flash didn't even rescue everyone, with the type of speed Sonic displayed above, he would have rescued everyone on that island with ease.

 

 

who said anything about him accessing it? I am talking about what he did on the Cosmic Interstate, which actually spans over 100,000 lightyears between each universe, and has over millions of universes linked between it. What he did has every bit to do with speed. Not to mention, he did something similar when he actually ran through 1,000 of those universes and found each Sonic from each alternate universe and made it back to his world in less than a few hours, casually.

 

 

believe me, The Flash is NOT faster than Sonic, at all.

I guessing you mean this
https://vignette.wik...=20171118234312

But, and here is the thing, the Sonic Archie comics kind of did whatever they wanted and was a jumbled mess of the games, the cartoons, and more. There is a WHOLE thread that someone has brilliantly done when talking about the DB battles with Sonic team in this. And the Archie comics have been rebooted too and some stuff ceased to exist canocially. So....yeah.

http://ulltraguy.blogspot.com/2016/07/

Just read this. It is REALLY long, but it shows everything as a break down.

Basically, the Flash and Sonic are no different. In fact, they both have a speed force with Sonic's being the "Emerald Force" or whatever. Point is, alot of things are taken out of context and to really go in and look at some of the things going on shows that these Archie comics are not really that great of feats when you dive into details.

Take example your comment about Sonic crossing the multiverse usng the Cosmic interstate really doesn't tell us anything. There was gaurenteed different sonics that were slower and yet still were able to be on that interstate and corss the universe in hours or minutes. So was it Sonic's real speed or was it really the cosmic interstate purposely shortening distances to help sonic along. As even Sonic himself said "It was a short cut." And Sonic took the shortest cut of all.

We also have this:
28tizwx.png





 

 

So, yeah.....

I mean, let's really think about this. This is why I love not looking at feats or whatever because kittens gets muddled...instead I look at core of characters. You can have all the powers in the universe, but if you are stupid or easily gullible to the point that people can take advantage of you...well, how powerful are you really?

Take example, even if Goku might be stronger than Superman...Superman is definitly smarter. Imagine Superman using some of Goku's weaknesses against him to his advantahe such as his ability to be tenacious. So tenacious that he trips and causes his own downfall. How do you take that into consideration?

You can have Sonic vs Flash....the sonic could be faster or stronger, but the Flash is smarter and can use things to his advantage. He can perceive events less than an attosecond. Can Sonic do that? As much OP as Sonic's golden form is, there is a limit and a time duration that Flash could use this advantage. Do we take that into consideration?

This is why core of their character is so important because some of these characters have been outsmarted. Sonic supposedly has all these OP powers and yet, some how Dr. Robotnik is a threat to him? How? What is stopping Sonic from snapping his fingers and just ending it all? Noone ever takes this into consideration.

Superman could end all crime if he wanted, but as shown he doesn't want to just kill people to stop crime which many villains take advantage of and yet Superman still come sout on top and even lives to 5 billion years in the future.
https://screenrant.c...-action-comics/

What do we take from all of this? How many fights did Superman win in those 5 billion uyears and what beings did he face? We have comics of Superman surviving the beginning and the end of universes and yet he is fine. No doubt someone or something tried to kill him and yet he survived long enough to live to outlive gods in his universe. Again, what does this all prove?

It proves feats are pointless in the end and that the author is king. The author can do or say whatever he wants and create things that in reality borderline ridiculousness.

"One minute Sonic is so powerful he can anything with reality....but oh here comes a robot monkey with a wrench that knocked him out with a blow to the head oh and it is canon. This actually happened." An author does this and what...are we to say that Sonic is weak to wrenches or do you think this is an outlier that is complete BS? Do you pick and choose what is canon and what isn't at this point?

It's like that "Goku destroying the universe in 3 punches" BS. One, it only happened when he was fighting with Beerus and he really didn't destroy anything. Every other fight, including stronger forms, shows that this is not what is happening. He doesn;t collide punches with anyone else and people say "OMG, he is destroying the universe." I mean, if that were really true...wouldn't the gods say "Hey, Goku, you're too much of a threat to the universe and are breaking balances and kitten...so we need you to stop fighting?"

"He shook the infinite void." How do you shake a void? How do you shake nothingness? And how can he shake an infinite void, but then can't take a puny laser to the chest?

You see how really stupid this all is? Like, after a while there are some things you really can't take into considering because they are so ridiculousness that you can't even quantify it in their own universe. You can quantify Superman lifting the planet, you can't quantify Goku supposedly shaking "nothingness." If it sounds stupid...it probably is.

If you have to use feats...use quantifiable feats and not something that can't be really be measured.
"Goku shook a void" and Superman lifted a book of Infinite pages. These are both ridiculous feats that have really no quanitfiable measure...although I'd say the book of infinite pages is a bit more quantifiable than "shaking a void," but it is still ridiculous.

What about Sonic and Flash? Okay...well....how can Sonic go slower than light and yet travel multiple universes? That's unquantifiable. How can flash perceive events in less than an attosecond when the shortest time measured is 12 attoseconds? How do you compare them? I don't see Sonic perceiving events shorter than an attosecond, but I do see Flash traversing time and space in seconds as well. So what does this mean? So Flash is not durable enough to take a punch for Superman, but can withstand practically the energy required to break time and space? And I am talking about power they can do on their own. Sonic does some of these things, but it requires outside forces and stuff that he doesn't do himself. Sonic has never ran faster than time without some outside assitance like the chaos emerald's and more. Knuckles can use the chaos emerald's too and shown just as much. Does that mean Knuckles can beat Sonic if he absorbes the power too?

*sigh* Do you see what I mean guys? Most people use generalizations, but keep going deeper and you can find many different variables that can easy tip the scale in a character's favor.

We also have the argument of Universe logic vs Universe logic. "Well, if Superman was in DBZ he would not be as powerful or such and such character is only as powerful in their own universe." Okay, but this applies to everyone. I could say that Goku is nowhere near that strong if he was in the DC universe, but that is not a fair assessment not is it? Besides, Superman has been shown to go into other universes and still be JUST as powerful. Superman was in the Looney Tunes universe with Bugs Bunny and his powers didn't flux. He was in Marvel and his powers didn't flux. He was in several universe not of his own and yet his powers did not flux. So unless stated otherwise like Flash in Marvel doesn't have powers because the speed does not exist in Marvel or how the Infinity Stones are inert in DC universe....then you can't say that a character is not as strong in another universe as they are in their own.

I can easily say that Goku would be much weaker in DC because Ki energy does not behave the same way in the DC universe as it does in DBZ/Super. You know why? Because several character do use Ki attacks and they are nowhere near planet busting. Iron Fist is a Ki user in Marvel, but you don't see him blowing up planets and shaking voids.

Point is, Core of character is probably the most accurate of them all to determine character outcomes.
Superman is not meant to lose and yet Goku loses most of his fights or requires massive amounts of outside help to win. So a 1v1 with Superman would have Goku losing.

The Flash is meant to be the fastest man alive to the point that he create multiverses just by running too fast. Sonic doesn't exhibit such a force...at least not without some major help from the chaos emeralds or more. The Flash wins because the dude can outrun time. What's stopping him from going back in time and killing sonic as a baby?

I hope you all really see what I mean here. You have to look at the purpose of the character and not feats because feats merely show what the author wanted them to do and besides some authors only do things for the sake of drama and NOT because that is what would happen. Look at Toriyama and the Buu Saga where he basically said "kitten all" to logic. How many times did the rules keep changing in this arc? More often than I can count.

But if people really want to use feats, then let's use feats:
35ib2fb.jpg


Oh look, Goku and Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons. Superman has been shown to lift a planet. Superman is stronger....Superman wins. Boom. See how easy that is?

This is where people would make an argument like "That is BS because Goku has pushed a mountain. which weighs 178,500,000,000 tons and the manga is not written by Toriyama." Yeah well, sorry, but a 178.5 billion tons doesn't hold a candle to 6.6 sextillion tons and well, I think we both can agree that Toriyama oversees the manga version so...yeah Toriyama either is not good at math or he doesn't care to. Unless we want to go back into the argument of the Boruto manga vs the Boruto movie of "What Kishimoto wrote vs what Kishimoto supposedly supervises."

Do you see how easy it is to debunk stuff because a writer does something to throw off the scales all because they don't care? And I am not even looking at character errors or printing errors such as the time Superman blew up a shadow moon with the same size as our moon, but Batman accidentally gives the scale as smaller which was an editor error.

If you want to use quantifiable feats to see who would win in a fight in a Vs Battle, then use feats that are backed-up ON PANEL and not just conjecture like "Well, if this ability increases his power by 50x then he can lift 50x more." Okay, but if Goku can lift 40 tons and you times it by 50, it doesn't come out to "billions, trillions, sextillions of tons." Multipliers are NOT a quantifiable way to show strength because I can do that too. "Superman can easily lift planets just by staying 15 minutes in the sun....imagine what 10,000 years in the sun lets him lift. It is unimaginable strength." People say Superman Prime is featless, but want to assume Goku's feats because "power scaling." I can power scale with Superman too. "Superman in base form can lift multiverses, survive black holes, tear and patch holes in reality, and move just as fast as the Flash can....imagine how much he would be if he was at Full potential," but people don't accept this because they want cold hard facts and panels of Superman doing things and not just conjecture. I don't understand how they want to assume so much for one character based off little to no evidence, but when another characters SHOWS what they can do...all of a sudden it does not count because...stupid reasons they give.

I mean, Death Battle's Goku vs Superman is the most accurate out of any argument I have ever seen because they want to use quantifiable feats, but at the same time realize that these characters have done ridiculous amount of stuff to the point that you can't quanitify anymore. So you go by the purpose of the character. Sure, I guess ine a few comics or manga the character could get more powerful, but that goes both ways. In Goku vs Superman 1, it was before Super...and then after Goku vs Superman 2...they released Strange Visitor. Both Goku and Superman got stronger and do even more ridiculous things. So DB, at least this one, has it right...A man who can overcome any limit vs a man who has no limits in the first place. Core of their character. They are are strong as the author wants them to be, but between Goku and Superman...Goku actually does struggle power wise, while Superman's struggle is more about moral standing. Superman will win one way or another....Goku can lose and has shown to lose many battle even now.

So...yeah I am done with arguments of Vs Battle arguments now. Core of character.
Saitama and Superman can beat Goku because they are not meant to lose or struggle and Goku is.
Flash can probably beat Sonic because Flash doesn't need outside help to manipulae time and space...(Plus people love the speed steal argument.)
and so on and so forth. Please, give me any Vs Battle and I can settle it by looking at the core of character.

End of discussion.

P.S. I want to add this because I hate when people throw this "If he has infinite strength, then why does he look like he struggles to lift something?" Okay, well, here is the thing. Just because you have infinite strength does NOT mean the universe has infinite durability. Something people keep forgetting that object have a threshold of how much weight they can endure before breaking. What if I see you struggle with a delicate vase? "Oh look how weak you are you can't even lift a vase." See how stupid that sounds? So a character with infinite strenght is not sturggling to lift  or move something. They struggling to move something without breaking it. It's called having control over your strength and honestly, that requires a lot of training and concentration. Flash can run as fast as he wants, but he doesn't want to break stuff like reality and time so he limits how fast he runs so as to not break kitten. So please, take something like this into consideration.
 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 13 July 2018 - 07:37 PM.

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#50222 DrK

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 06:41 PM

You're saying that "everyone agrees" to pick the strongest Supes to fight Goku when the strongest Supes is not the most contemporary or iconic version of him? And you don't need the most OP version of Supes just to beat Goku? That just really doesn't make any sense to me.


Edited by DrK, 13 July 2018 - 06:41 PM.


#50223 Shadow Wolf

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 08:29 PM

You're saying that "everyone agrees" to pick the strongest Supes to fight Goku when the strongest Supes is not the most contemporary or iconic version of him? And you don't need the most OP version of Supes just to beat Goku? That just really doesn't make any sense to me.

I actually don't get the approach to your question, but let me see if I can answer it correctly anyway:

1-Not everyone agrees to pick the strongest version of both characters because these characters are quite inconsistent. After all, they facts of each version of the characters are so inconsistent with each other that it is difficult to determine which would truly be the strongest version. Why? Because it is difficult to pinpoint which facts can be taken as canon and which numbers are appropriately accurate. With that argument, out of the strongest versions of each character, the strongest Superman would beat the strongest Goku with an allergy attack.

2-With that said, the reason why you don't need the strongest version of Superman to beat the Strongest version of Goku is because the strength James uses to measure the victory is the "core" of the character. It doesn't matter which version of Superman you use, the "core" of the character is the same: "a man with no limits". In Goku's case, it is a bit different because he is about "overcoming" limits. He will ever grow stronger, so eventually, you have a "top" power version of him but even his "max power" version still Has Limits. Hence why James's argument is accurate.

To explain it better, imagine measuring core strength is as a math equation:

Goku's versions in random increased numbers:

SS Goku: 100,000
SS4 Goku: 100,000,000
SSG Goku: 1,000,000,000
UI Goku: 1,000,000,000,000,000

Superman: infinite
Superman Prime: infinite
Silver Age Superman: infinite
Strange Visitor Superman: infinite

Does it make sense now?

On another topic related to the thread

I was wondering of it was possible to make a comprehensive list of the stats and feats of the female characters in the Narutoverse. I'm getting kinda tired of people calling Sakura useless, so a few hard facts should clearly state just how good she really is, even if Kishi didn't treat her well.

Edited by Shadow Wolf, 13 July 2018 - 08:33 PM.


#50224 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 08:34 PM

You're saying that "everyone agrees" to pick the strongest Supes to fight Goku when the strongest Supes is not the most contemporary or iconic version of him? And you don't need the most OP version of Supes just to beat Goku? That just really doesn't make any sense to me.

 

What? The strongest Superman is the most Iconic Superman so I am not sure what you are talking about here. The idea of Superman is he is OP and can do anything. He is called "Superman" for a reason. The concept that the ultimate and strongest hero is Superman has existed since his first creation since 1938. Look at all the songs associated with him even ones that try to diminish him. "Waiting for Superman" by Daughtry is about a Girl waiting for the perfect and strongest man to be with her. Look at the song "One Call Away" by Charlie Puth. "Superman's got nothing on me." Associating that Superman is hyper strong and amazing and he is better than that.

So Superman being the strongest is part of his Iconic nature rather than any feat or comic specifically. Superman is associated with perfection. If it doesn't make sense to you...then I can't help you. It is so obvious I am not sure how you can not get it. There is no songs that say "Waiting for Batman" or "Waiting for Goku."

You not understanding why this does not make sense....does not make sense to me. Unless you think waaay too hard. Ask anyone "Can you name one of the strongest Superheroes?" And chances are Superman will be mentioned more often than not. So Superman is unanimous with strength and perfection. Simple. It's only when people want to argue points does it get more complicated. I mean, look at the DBZ fans who say Goku can beat Superman in base form and yet, these same people have never read a Superman comic in their life. Even here.

I also love how this is the one sentence that gives you pause and not say anythig else I have mentioned.

EVERYONE will always take the strongest version of each character into considering and if they don't, then they just show how extremely biased they are and this is how you weed out the faker's vs the real analyst. If you come across people that will apply logic to one and not the other even though the logic is sound for both, then you are dealing with someone who is FORCING an outcome that is unfair to the fight.

Like I said, Strongest Superman vs Strongest Goku. The question you want to ask is...which ones are the strongest versions? Superman Prime, Strange Visitor, Pre-Crisis Superman, and so on and so forth. Which Goku? Dragonball Super? Dragonball GT? Manga? Anime?

"And we are not using future Superman who is pretty much god, so we have to look at these characters at their prime." (Funny, they made this pun and never realized it.) Superman Prime, while many say are featless, can be looked at in certain views based on power scaling as well and not scaling with others, but scaling with himself. Like I said, If 15 minutes inside the core of the sun let's him effortlessly move planets, be immune to Kryptonite, and so much more....then what does 15,000 years in the core do?

So quick and without thinking of specific feats....
How strong is Superman?
How strong is Goku?
How fast is the Flash?
How fast is Sonic?

Answer:
OP strong
OP determined
OP fast
OP ADHD
 

 

 

I actually don't get the approach to your question, but let me see if I can answer it correctly anyway:

1-Not everyone agrees to pick the strongest version of both characters because these characters are quite inconsistent. After all, they facts of each version of the characters are so inconsistent with each other that it is difficult to determine which would truly be the strongest version. Why? Because it is difficult to pinpoint which facts can be taken as canon and which numbers are appropriately accurate. With that argument, out of the strongest versions of each character, the strongest Superman would beat the strongest Goku with an allergy attack.

2-With that said, the reason why you don't need the strongest version of Superman to beat the Strongest version of Goku is because the strength James uses to measure the victory is the "core" of the character. It doesn't matter which version of Superman you use, the "core" of the character is the same: "a man with no limits". In Goku's case, it is a bit different because he is about "overcoming" limits. He will ever grow stronger, so eventually, you have a "top" power version of him but even his "max power" version still Has Limits. Hence why James's argument is accurate.

To explain it better, imagine measuring core strength is as a math equation:

Goku's versions in random increased numbers:

SS Goku: 100,000
SS4 Goku: 100,000,000
SSG Goku: 1,000,000,000
UI Goku: 1,000,000,000,000,000

Superman: infinite
Superman Prime: infinite
Silver Age Superman: infinite
Strange Visitor Superman: infinite

Does it make sense now?

This is exactly what I am saying. You think of Goku and it is :Weak enough to struggle, but determined enough to win." It doesn't matter the opponent or the opponents strength. Goku will be weaker in the beginning of the fight and then get a new form and be stronger. That is HOW Dragonball works. That is how the story Toriyama writers shows. Superman is a completely different level and different story style. Superman is as strong as he needs to be. He will ALWAYS win the fight, but the matter is not whether he wins or loses, but rather if he is doing the write thing. Not all fights are won by punching something to death. What if Superman needs to solve a problem that requires intense mental gymnastics? Then Superman will be smart enough to figure it out.

Look at the story when Lois got a brain tumor and Superman went to a medical library and learned everything about about medical pratice in a few minutes to perfom surgery to cure Lois. How can he do that? Because he is Superman. Why can he hear noises in the vacuum of space 25 light years away? Because he is Superman. BECAUSE HE IS SUPERMAN.

You can't get any more simple than that and if you don't get it...then you you truly do not understand the concept of these characters as a whole and have no idea what you are talking about.

The first Bold: Exactly, Goku one minute lifts a mountain and then the next fails to lift 1000 tons. Canon or not? They are both apporved by Toriyama so you can't make the excuse "well, Toriyama didn't write it" and it is shown that unlike Kishimoto, Toriyama gives heavy advice on the Dragonball franchise whether he is directly invovled or not. It is not like Boruto where Kishimoto only vaguely supervises. Now, if someone wants to claim Plot induced stupidity or plot induced drama...fine, but how many times can we apply that to Superman? More than enough times to say that is something is too ridiculous to take as real fact. Common sense people.

Wizard magazine says Superman would die from a fall from orbit. Shows a comic of Superman not only surviving, but being more pissed off than hurt. Not just a fall, but THROWN. So are you going to say that Wizard is factual in their claim? No, that would be insanely stupid. Even a Dragonball Z fanboy wouldn't be THAT delusional.

Second bold: Again, exactly. Superman's core character and his purpose is he will always win and he will be as strong as he needs to be, but like any character he is restricted to a the story the writers puts forth. One minute one writer says "Superman can bench press the earth" and then here comes another author and says "Superman can barely lift a small moon." Who is more accurate? Again, look at ther Goku moving mountain vs 1000 tons. One minute he pushes a mountain and then the next he fails to pick up 1000 tons. What do the fans say? "Well, we are going with the mountain push because that is more accurate." Why? Because fans know that the 1000 tons thing is stupid and Goku has been shown to have better feats BEFORE certain events and not later. So they will use the mountain feat rather than the 1000 tons despite the fact that the mountain feat was MUCH MUCH earlier in the story and the 1000 tons is far more recent.

As for really "which version lah blah blah."

No, people do not do the "which version" logic even though they say they do. They only say they do to try and provide proof to their unbiased nature. Instead they use a certain point in time from a certain Superman version and then roll with that.

"Well, Doomsday killed Modern Age Superman so that means Superman is killable." Yeah, but this was earlier in his career. The story keeps going. Like Death Battle said "It's like saying Goku would lose because he got one shotted by Radditz and was killed by Piccolo. We are looking at this characters from their maximum potential and not random points in their timeline." That is the truth.

That is what most DBZ fanboys do. They say "We are using such and such Superman," only to use certain points in that story version where he wasn't at maximum potential and then claim that really was him at his maximum potential. It's the same about the third wave feminist brutally beating up on men and beaing extremely sexist towards men only to say "Well, feminism is about equality." kitten. They only use that excuse when they want to use it for their argument, but then ignore it when they want to attack people. 

There is 4 versions of Superman
Pre-crisis
Modern Age
New 52
Rebirth.

People want to say "There are 10,000 Supermans created." No, that is a garbage argument and they know it. There are multiple forms of Superman in different 52 universes whose powers range, but some are only one-offs and their powers are the same or we don't know enough about them to really give a definitive answer.

Pre-crsis becomes Strange Visiter in which he becomes multi-universe level power or more.
Modern Age becomes Superman Prime which is said to exist to the end of time and has unlimited power.
New 52 was killed off before maximum potential was realized, but his feats range from Solar system busting to multiple-galaxy buster. (Dude literally crosses a galaxy in mere seconds beating out teleporters or at least keeping up with them.)
Rebirth is still going, but he is said to contain at least the memories of the other three....and we don't know the limit of his powers quite yet if he even has limits at all.

So which one does Goku stomp? Out of the 4 main ones...which one loses to Goku?
 

I was wondering of it was possible to make a comprehensive list of the stats and feats of the female characters in the Narutoverse. I'm getting kinda tired of people calling Sakura useless, so a few hard facts should clearly state just how good she really is, even if Kishi didn't treat her well.

It is possible and what you will find is that Sakura has done alot more than any other female in the series since...well, she is the most predominate female in the series. Even in Boruto she shows more feats and strength. The only feat Hinata has is having the biggest hospital bill since we always see her in a hospital bed.



 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 13 July 2018 - 09:12 PM.

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#50225 DrK

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 08:53 PM

Okay but if future Supes is pretty much god, isn't that the strongest Supes so they should have used him? I just don't feel like there is any way people are going to agree on which version to pick. I get you find it irrelevant because of the themes of Superman but that is going to be a point of fierce contention also. If he can win off feats you don't even need to go down those lines.

 

Ok I didn't see your edit. Basically my objection was to the assertion that people are actually going to reach a consensus about this.

 

And it either doesn't matter because Superman wins thematically or... it does matter. By entertaining the idea that some version(s) of Superman need to be the ones used because they're stronger you are implicitly saying that some other versions of Supes might lose to Goku which sabotages the thematic argument. I would really just go all in on one or the other if I was invested in this.


Edited by DrK, 13 July 2018 - 09:18 PM.


#50226 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:27 PM

Okay but if future Supes is pretty much god, isn't that the strongest Supes so they should have used him? I just don't feel like there is any way people are going to agree on which version to pick. I get you find it irrelevant because of the themes of Superman but that is going to be a point of fierce contention also. If he can win off feats you don't even need to go down those lines.

You're missing 90% of the conversation.

Death Battle: "And we aren't using Future Goku because that would require a ridiculous amount of assumptions and we aren't using Future Superman, who is pretty much god, so we have to use these characters at their prime."

"We can keep throwing feats and equations around, but feats don't really describe how amazing these two characters are. They are both daunting heroes, solutions to problems, and achievers of the impossibe. The difference is the core of their character. Goku has never been invincible. Goku has limits he must overcome while Superman has no limits in the first place."

They didn't use Future Superman Prime because he is unquantifiable. They can't pinpoint where his power is to give an accurate measurment of proof, but even if they did...it was pointless because Goku has never been THAT strong. So they wanted to use a base line Superman to give Goku a fighting chance and have evidence to back it up. This is why they used panels that give definitive feats like Superman lifting 6.6 sextillion tons or moving 9 times the speed of light.

And even when they used all of this, the DBZ fanboys STILL argued that it was all kitten. The second video of Goku vs Superman 2 said "Superman at maximum potential is essentially limitless" They lowballed Superman and highballed Goku, but then the DBZ fanboys claimed the opposite that they highballed Superman and lowballed Goku. In reality, Superman was nerfed against Goku to give Goku a fighting chance.

This is why Goku vs Superman 2 used less math and more looking at the core of their character. Superman survived and held blackholes, flew through the center a red sun, absorbed enough energy to erase half a galaxy, lifted huge amounts of weight, and so much more.....Goku has not done anything CLOSE to what Superman has done. Really think about that. has Goku ever held a black hole? Has he traveled over a billion times the speed of light? Has he tanked being pushed into the core of a red sun? Has he ever flown so fast he nearly broke reality? Has Goku ever sneezed away a solar system or even dragged one?

We can go by feats alone and Superman has not only done so much more, but compared to him Goku has done NOTHING. Goku was scared of an attack by Buu that was only powerful enough to blow up the Earth ten times. If Goku is stronger than Superman, why would that attack scare him?

But the DBZ fanboys don't like this answer. They want to keep using assumptions and garbage logic to prove Goku is better because he does not have as many feats to back up as Superman does. They want to make assumptions like "Just because we don't see it happen does not mean Goku can't do it." Yeah, but again I can apply that to Superman. If we are going JUST by what feats they have done on panel....then Superman trumps Goku even in his weakest version because the feats are greater than Goku has ever done.

New 52 Superman, who is arguably the weakest version, traveled an entire solar system in seconds. Goku needs his instant transmission to do that and not some travel speed.

They want Goku to win regardless of facts, feats, or anything of the sort and they use any tactic to win.


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#50227 DrK

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:35 PM

It's hard to argue that Goku could hold a black hole after watching DBS.



#50228 Kagomaru

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 10:40 PM

*Sighs* Well, just walked out of an exasperating conversation where people(who didn't do their research about the debacle and are content in their ignorance) are still convinced that NaruSaku fans started that ridiculous petition after the series' ending and that we sent death threats to Kishimoto.   


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#50229 ultranx

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Posted Yesterday, 01:31 AM

I actually don't get the approach to your question, but let me see if I can answer it correctly anyway:

1-Not everyone agrees to pick the strongest version of both characters because these characters are quite inconsistent. After all, they facts of each version of the characters are so inconsistent with each other that it is difficult to determine which would truly be the strongest version. Why? Because it is difficult to pinpoint which facts can be taken as canon and which numbers are appropriately accurate. With that argument, out of the strongest versions of each character, the strongest Superman would beat the strongest Goku with an allergy attack.

2-With that said, the reason why you don't need the strongest version of Superman to beat the Strongest version of Goku is because the strength James uses to measure the victory is the "core" of the character. It doesn't matter which version of Superman you use, the "core" of the character is the same: "a man with no limits". In Goku's case, it is a bit different because he is about "overcoming" limits. He will ever grow stronger, so eventually, you have a "top" power version of him but even his "max power" version still Has Limits. Hence why James's argument is accurate.

To explain it better, imagine measuring core strength is as a math equation:

Goku's versions in random increased numbers:

SS Goku: 100,000
SS4 Goku: 100,000,000
SSG Goku: 1,000,000,000
UI Goku: 1,000,000,000,000,000

Superman: infinite
Superman Prime: infinite
Silver Age Superman: infinite
Strange Visitor Superman: infinite

Does it make sense now?

On another topic related to the thread

I was wondering of it was possible to make a comprehensive list of the stats and feats of the female characters in the Narutoverse. I'm getting kinda tired of people calling Sakura useless, so a few hard facts should clearly state just how good she really is, even if Kishi didn't treat her well.

overcoming limits yes, but the new movie trailers are saying saiyans have no limits xD


Edited by ultranx, Yesterday, 01:32 AM.

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#50230 Phantom_999

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Posted Yesterday, 01:54 AM

*Sighs* Well, just walked out of an exasperating conversation where people(who didn't do their research about the debacle and are content in their ignorance) are still convinced that NaruSaku fans started that ridiculous petition after the series' ending and that we sent death threats to Kishimoto.   

 

 

AND? What is their point on that? That is just a generalization, because by that logic NH has sent death threats a million times over if Kishi DIDN'T MAKE NH canon during the 700 Chapter run of Naruto. By generalization, I mean that they apply one thing to a group as a whole. So just because A NS fan sent a death threat to Kishi, does that mean that the entire NS fandom as a whole sent that threat? That is A NH fan or A NS being a little "kitten" which is not even indicative  as a whole of what a fandom is like. Not all NH fans are fanatical Hinatatheists and admittedly, there are NS fans out there that pair up Naruto and Sakura for shallow reasons like "Hinata is ugly" etc. but that is not reflective of an entire group. *side note* That is exactly what Racism is, taking an individual aspect and think a whole group is applicable to that aspect.

 

And why do they bring up any NS petition? because I don't see that changing anything since NH and SS became canon. Besides, I'd like to know what they would say if we were to bring up the fact that NH and SS did not happen because "that was the plan", it was made last minute because Kishi was constantly told by many of his editors and the faculty of SP that was making the Naruto and Boruto anime in general that Naruto must "love and marry Hinata" akin to a madness mantra?

 

Actually this actually brings up the point I am most infuriated by; YouTube videos made by sawyer7mage, Forneverworld etc. are treated as "fact" as to what the the international fandom of Naruto wants and was used as "evidence" by socially inept wacko executives of Naruto's  franchise that jack off to Hinata Hyuga's porn to convince Kishi that NH must happen. :down:  :dry:  DISGUSTING :superior:    

 

Anyway, forget about these morons my friend :smile:


Edited by Phantom_999, Today, 12:25 AM.

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#50231 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted Yesterday, 07:02 AM

overcoming limits yes, but the new movie trailers are saying saiyans have no limits xD

Well, technically Saiyajin don't have limits either, but the difference is that Superman has instant access to all of his potential whereas Saiyajin, as we've seen, have to train in order to overcome what are essentially barriers between them and their growing potential since if they were to just instantly use that power without their bodies and/or minds being ready for it, it would destroy them.

If Superman and Goku were runners, then Superman would be able to instantly start off as fast as he wants without tiring whereas Goku may start fast, but he would eventually have to stop to catch his breath and give his body a chance to recover and adapt before continuing, to which Superman would only put more and more ridiculous space between the two each time Goku would stop. Goku could eventually reach places Superman has been. but Superman would always be countless steps ahead.


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#50232 James S Cassidy

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Posted Yesterday, 06:11 PM

overcoming limits yes, but the new movie trailers are saying saiyans have no limits xD

The form is called "Super Saiyan God," but Goku doesn't become omnipotent, invulnerable, can create life by thought, can create his own universe by thought, and so much more.

Hell, Kami is named God and yet he doesn't do anything. So the term "Gods" in Dragonball can refer to a being that create and destroy universe...and a random green alien that just to happens to be the guardian of earth. A Guardian, I might add, that doesn't really guard anything. Good job on guarding the earth from wars, plague, and more. What exactly is he guarding it from? Even Loki made fun of Thor for this.

Thor: So you take the world I love as recompense for your imagined slights? No, the Earth is under MY protection, Loki!
Loki: And you're doing a marvelous job with that! The humans slaughter each other in droves, while you idly fret! I mean to rule them, and why should I not?

So Dragonball plays lose with definitions.

I also love how so many love talking about the "no limits fallacy" and saying that their is no such thing, but then want to claim that Goku has no limits.

We will wait for the movie before jumping any guns.

 

It's hard to argue that Goku could hold a black hole after watching DBS.

Not hard for me. Either he is shown doing it or he can't. This is why feats are so important. The one problem with "feats vs feats" is that especially for Goku, people use conjecture rather than actual physical proof. Unless people show me Goku casually bench pressing 6.6 sextillion tons...then I am going to assume he can't do it.

With that being said, if Goku is turning into Superman....are Dragonball Z fans are going to hate him now? Isn't the whole point that DBZ fanboys hate Superman was because he is too OP and never trains for his powers? Now all of a sudden Goku is becoming this too. I guess Goku is a stupid character now if he is starting to become ridiculous levels of Micheal Bay.

I wonder how many of you would enjoy a Goku that randomly becomes more powerful than Zeno in the series. Would you hate him now?

This is why Super has become so garbage to me. It used to be about Goku overcoming limits and showcasing how he faces down evil threatening life, but now...Super is just one big kitten measuring competition. There is hardly a plot anymore and Goku is getting stronger because.....no real reason why. People complaing about Superman and how his comics are boring, but now...Super is so boring because all it is is a Micheal Bay anime with tons of explosions, powers out of nowhere, and random "bad guys" who are not really bad and Goku looks like a jerk fighting them.

In essence Goku has become WORSE than Superman and the fanboys eat it up like no tomorrow. I loved Dragonball Z, but ever since Super started...neigh even before in the Buu sage...the series has lost all ideas of continuity, logic, and plot. Maybe this is the point. Toriyama is making a mindless anime for people to enjoy. People say Saitama is a gag character, but it seems to me that it is Goku who is the real gag character because he lost all meaning in his core. Goku used to be about a man who can overcome any limit with determination....now, he is just a guy who keeps changing his hair color and gets random powers out of nowhere that make NO SENSE to why he has them.

This is why I stick with Superman. As bad as Superman is....they still try to keep him at his core...save for New 52 which one writer went nuts on the "Superman goes emo", but they are changing that with Rebirth back to his original person and he is fighting Dr. Manhatten.


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#50233 ultranx

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Posted Today, 03:39 AM

The form is called "Super Saiyan God," but Goku doesn't become omnipotent, invulnerable, can create life by thought, can create his own universe by thought, and so much more.

Hell, Kami is named God and yet he doesn't do anything. So the term "Gods" in Dragonball can refer to a being that create and destroy universe...and a random green alien that just to happens to be the guardian of earth. A Guardian, I might add, that doesn't really guard anything. Good job on guarding the earth from wars, plague, and more. What exactly is he guarding it from? Even Loki made fun of Thor for this.

Thor: So you take the world I love as recompense for your imagined slights? No, the Earth is under MY protection, Loki!
Loki: And you're doing a marvelous job with that! The humans slaughter each other in droves, while you idly fret! I mean to rule them, and why should I not?

So Dragonball plays lose with definitions.

I also love how so many love talking about the "no limits fallacy" and saying that their is no such thing, but then want to claim that Goku has no limits.

We will wait for the movie before jumping any guns.

 

Not hard for me. Either he is shown doing it or he can't. This is why feats are so important. The one problem with "feats vs feats" is that especially for Goku, people use conjecture rather than actual physical proof. Unless people show me Goku casually bench pressing 6.6 sextillion tons...then I am going to assume he can't do it.

With that being said, if Goku is turning into Superman....are Dragonball Z fans are going to hate him now? Isn't the whole point that DBZ fanboys hate Superman was because he is too OP and never trains for his powers? Now all of a sudden Goku is becoming this too. I guess Goku is a stupid character now if he is starting to become ridiculous levels of Micheal Bay.

I wonder how many of you would enjoy a Goku that randomly becomes more powerful than Zeno in the series. Would you hate him now?

This is why Super has become so garbage to me. It used to be about Goku overcoming limits and showcasing how he faces down evil threatening life, but now...Super is just one big kitten measuring competition. There is hardly a plot anymore and Goku is getting stronger because.....no real reason why. People complaing about Superman and how his comics are boring, but now...Super is so boring because all it is is a Micheal Bay anime with tons of explosions, powers out of nowhere, and random "bad guys" who are not really bad and Goku looks like a jerk fighting them.

In essence Goku has become WORSE than Superman and the fanboys eat it up like no tomorrow. I loved Dragonball Z, but ever since Super started...neigh even before in the Buu sage...the series has lost all ideas of continuity, logic, and plot. Maybe this is the point. Toriyama is making a mindless anime for people to enjoy. People say Saitama is a gag character, but it seems to me that it is Goku who is the real gag character because he lost all meaning in his core. Goku used to be about a man who can overcome any limit with determination....now, he is just a guy who keeps changing his hair color and gets random powers out of nowhere that make NO SENSE to why he has them.

This is why I stick with Superman. As bad as Superman is....they still try to keep him at his core...save for New 52 which one writer went nuts on the "Superman goes emo", but they are changing that with Rebirth back to his original person and he is fighting Dr. Manhatten.

um....you do know I was making a joke about the no limits text in the trailer and wasn't actually debating the no limits thing right? 

.........

 

I mean why else would I post XD right after it, you know, like a grin emote?

.......

I mean seriously if I just used sonic vs flash as an example of how versus debates don't make sense to me and agreed with someone that versus debates are dumb and compared sonic vs flash to goku vs superman, doesn't that point out I don't care about goku vs superman? I was literally making a joke in response to the stuff about superman having no limits trying to be funny.


Edited by ultranx, Today, 03:47 AM.

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#50234 James S Cassidy

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Posted Today, 07:57 AM

um....you do know I was making a joke about the no limits text in the trailer and wasn't actually debating the no limits thing right? 

.........

 

I mean why else would I post XD right after it, you know, like a grin emote?

.......

I mean seriously if I just used sonic vs flash as an example of how versus debates don't make sense to me and agreed with someone that versus debates are dumb and compared sonic vs flash to goku vs superman, doesn't that point out I don't care about goku vs superman? I was literally making a joke in response to the stuff about superman having no limits trying to be funny.

Your joke is not really that funny first off, but there are people who really think along this dynamic. Look no further than Seththeprogrammer and Just a Robot. They made countless videos of how "no limits" is a fallacy and trying so hard to prove Superman and Saitama are full of it, but when applied to Goku they easy step aside and say "Yeah, Goku is limitless" or they hardly poke fun at him at all.

Apparently, Superman lifting a book of infinite pages is BS, but Goku shaking a infinite void is much more believable. At least this is their logic. There are some people here who believe in ridiculous things that make no sense, but at the same time criticize another character for their ridiculous behavior or impossibility.

I mean, ONE pratically says in black and white that Saitama broke his limiter and he is more or less god in terms of strength, durability, and stamina, and they call BS in this, but apparently Toriyama says Cell can blow up a solar system and they are like "totally makes sense." So it is hard to take something as a joke when some people actually take this so seriously that they get obsessed with how their character has to win because it is their favorite character.

Superman is my favorite character too, but I don't mind him struggling in strength now and again. All I care about is if it makes sense or follows the story and not just some lame excuse like "Well, I have to make Batman look stronger, so let's make Superman weaker."

----------------------------------------------------

Now to the matter at hand. I have found a video that perfectly explains why NH and SS are a horrible pairing.
https://youtu.be/sMbch47oz2c

It perfectly sums up the problems with SS and NH to a T. More than just "they were rushed," but how the characters actually change when they start the relationship which causes problems with validity. This is especially true with Naruto and Hinata. Naruto marries Hinata and now he is a completely different person. Some may make excuses, but Naruto's personality have really changed as he got older which is horrible. Naruto got bitter after he married Hinata while before he was more open and plucky.

Now, some people say that people change as they grow up, but people don't change THIS much unless something forced them to change or something causes a change which means that Naruto was happier without Hinata than he was with her.

PLease, watch the video and see exactly where she is coming from. It fits so well it is scary how she nails it.


Edited by James S Cassidy, Today, 08:11 AM.

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#50235 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted Today, 03:45 PM

Now to the matter at hand. I have found a video that perfectly explains why NH and SS are a horrible pairing.
https://youtu.be/sMbch47oz2c

It perfectly sums up the problems with SS and NH to a T. More than just "they were rushed," but how the characters actually change when they start the relationship which causes problems with validity. This is especially true with Naruto and Hinata. Naruto marries Hinata and now he is a completely different person. Some may make excuses, but Naruto's personality have really changed as he got older which is horrible. Naruto got bitter after he married Hinata while before he was more open and plucky.

Now, some people say that people change as they grow up, but people don't change THIS much unless something forced them to change or something causes a change which means that Naruto was happier without Hinata than he was with her.

PLease, watch the video and see exactly where she is coming from. It fits so well it is scary how she nails it.

 

:yes: James, you are so right, and then we see all this stuff said and just how much of it is legit! 



#50236 Phantom_999

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Posted Today, 06:17 PM

Now to the matter at hand. I have found a video that perfectly explains why NH and SS are a horrible pairing.
https://youtu.be/sMbch47oz2c

It perfectly sums up the problems with SS and NH to a T. More than just "they were rushed," but how the characters actually change when they start the relationship which causes problems with validity. This is especially true with Naruto and Hinata. Naruto marries Hinata and now he is a completely different person. Some may make excuses, but Naruto's personality have really changed as he got older which is horrible. Naruto got bitter after he married Hinata while before he was more open and plucky.

Now, some people say that people change as they grow up, but people don't change THIS much unless something forced them to change or something causes a change which means that Naruto was happier without Hinata than he was with her.

PLease, watch the video and see exactly where she is coming from. It fits so well it is scary how she nails it.

 

 

EXACTLY EVERYTHING I've been pointing out in a nut shell!!!! :goodjob:

 

Also that whole the relationship must be comfortable enough for one or the other calling out the other on their BS brings up a good point that I need to address. 

 

this is what so many fans miss during Naruto telling Sakura that he hates people who lie to themselves. He was calling her out on saying she does not care about Sasuke anymore. Only idiots would think that it meant that he was rejecting her love confession, he was wondering why Sakura would say of a sudden Sasuke means nothing to her anymore, and that he should stop pursuing him because that was OUT OF CHARACTER for her and not to mention both were withdrawing information from each other so that's why things got out of hand. If anyone actually thought that meant Naruto rejected Sakura's confession and moved on from her then ten tell me, WHY DIDN'T IT SHOW a scene where Naruto and Sakura addressed the confession and tell each other they are not meant to be and just remain as friends? Because right after that huge fight Naruto still bridal carried Sakura to stop her from being killed by Sasuke and after Tsunade woke up Sakura had no second thoughts about telling Naruto first so it establishes that their relationship has not changed nor has it soured. Not to mention, if Naruto actually rejected Sakura there then why did he tell his own father that Sakura was his girlfriend?


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#50237 Qia

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Posted Today, 06:28 PM

Woah whoever that is, I really like that I, essentially, found myself agreeing with her and how analytical she is. There's another video by the same person that I think touches upon the major problem with the narusasu relationship (mainly after 3:55). Tell me what you think about that :)

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=C-cRPmVOtAk

 

I feel like it would have been better if, instead of this forced brotherly relationship between the two, that it was established at the start that Naruto refuses to give up on Sasuke because he feels some sort of personal responsibility towards him, such as the whole "I can't see myself being Hokage if I can't save my teammate". This message honestly would have worked if it was never about keeping Sakura's promise (which, to me, it was mainly about after Naruto failed the first time). Rather, as one possible way to work in this message, Naruto could have reflected on the fact Sasuke practically almost sacrificed his life in order to save his in the Land of Waves Arc. So, because of that, he feels some type of personal responsibility towards saving him, even if that means not accomplishing his dream of being Hokage (in the same way that, if Sasuke had died at that time, he would not be able to restore his clan's name). 


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