archangel

^{As for Boruto the anime, manga or anything related, here's my thought.}

^{It's just doesn't exist so chapter 699-700. It broke me lol.}

 

 

^This basically sums up my thoughts.

 

I look at story/characters first, then I indulge myself with shipping, because I don't completely expect it to be at the center of the story unless it's a romance manga/anime. (However, I do try to look at different perspectives to get a better understanding of everything, including with couples. Shipping generally does't bother me, but it's something with NH & their fans that really tilts me the wrong way for some reason.)

 

Naruto's main goal was to become Hokage. And that's what the ending should have shown: Naruto being inducted as Hokage to cap off the series for good. Showing his wedding, something rather personal and opinionated, just left people with more questions than answers. His goal was not to get married (at least, to Hinata). It felt like they were still trying to convince people that yes, that Naruto really didn't have the guts to at least talk candidly to Sakura about his feelings that he's been lingering on about for most of his life throughout the manga in it's entirety, and instead went for second-best. The understanding, the secret gazes. It indeed felt like he really gave up and didn't try at all; just so many things left unsaid, it's really sad. And they want to tell me that this boy doesn't know the meaning of love, after all the people he's met in his life and all that he's been through? Obito, Tsunade, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Iruka, his friends, his teammates, his parents. Please.

 

Nevertheless, I truly didn't want anyone to end up together in canon cause I knew it would absolutely ruin the fanbase. Had NaruSaku been canon, they'd never hear the end of it from people who don't like it, like what's happening now with NH & SS. What a disaster.

I understand that and I totally agree with the part that no matter who end up with who, the fanbase would be hurt. Some people would have been unhappy. However, the way things were handle, they screw the Narusaku fanbase, the Naruto fanbase in general since the pairing they went with aren't fully resolve and one really make no sense (Sakura with Sasuke). Even the NH and SS fanbase lose some of their follower after that, because either they realize that the overall story suffer from it or that they didn't validate their argument at all. Like the fact that the Last exist show that NH didn't have any ground to begin with( especially when Hinata get to have a backstory similar to Sakura (being bullied because of a body part, Sakura case her forehead, Hinata her eyes)). Even some are ready to admit that it makes no sense, since Hinata was the heiress of the Hyuga clan, nobody should dare tried to lay a finger on her for that reason and the Hyuga is a well respected clan in the leaf, so no one would make fun of them because of that.

The problem with this manga is and why I believe they should have stick with Naruto and Sakura in the canon is that the story is about Naruto. He's the main character. In Dragon Ball, Goku is almost like asexual (almost confirmed in Super lol) so I don't really care with who he was gonna ended up with. In one piece, Luffy is on the same boat. Somehow, I believe Nami should be the one, but it doesn't matter who or if he will ended up with at the end of the manga. Because it never was about that either. With Naruto, it was established since the  beginning that he wants to win over Sakura. It was heavily implied during the whole story. The motto of the main protagonist is never give up. He was one conversation away of being with her. That's my main problem with Naruto. Even if it is a Shonen manga, that love interest become a part of it as soon as Naruto show an interest for Sakura. They could have kill it in part one but instead, he keep dropping hint during the whole story ( war arc included) to come up with the worst excuse ever. It was a red herring. Acknowledging that yes, those were legitimate hint (which pissed off some NH and SS fan because those prove to be development) only to mislead the reader the whole story (which kind of pissed off anyone now).

With the development and all. NS doesn't really need that big wedding moment. The manga should have focused on the moment where Naruto become Hokage, something like the pain ending arc deliver. When he gain the respect of everyone in the village, the hug from Sakura, his friend throwing him up in the air and that panel with Iruka, his first teacher who saw where he was coming from. That was perfect. It only need an Hokage speech there. That scene was better than the current manga ending, because we mustn't forget that Hokage is only a title. The real goal is why Naruto wants to be Hokage. That was to gain the respect of everyone in the village, which he won after that battle.

More than 2 years latter and I rant about it still. Sorry about that :)

Well poop. Glad the anime finally over. Nice touch for Iruka. Glad for him.  For the rest, I know it's been like 2 years but it still don't work for me. That manga ruined it for the hero.

I mean being Hokage is a title. We all know Naruto would be Hokage and all. It the path to that title that make the story. What hurts is that along the way, Naruto kinda off gave up, betraying is own ninja way and thus it always feel like a bitter end. That wedding with Hinata, call me biased but I can say objectively that it shouldn't be like this. I'm not the kind of guy who ship when he read/watch a show, but with Naruto, you cheer for him to win Sakura. He come from so far, from the girl hating him to become his best friend. When you got those insight about Naruto understanding her more than anyone else, you want him to win her even more. For someone who was blind by loving the wrong person (who never treat me like Sasuke did Sakura, might I had)   and never saw the girl I should have been with, I wanted Sakura to open her eye too. I mean the story point out too much into that direction.

And damn it, it didn't happen. I still feel Kishi pair Sakura with Sasuke so that Naruto get Hinata, because it doesn't make sense to went to the guy who tried to murder you. Sarada must have the best how my parent met story at school. That shot with Sakura show how swiftly her development was thrown away after the marriage. That scene show her almost jealous of what she could have.That hurts her.

What's worst is that Naruto and Sakura won't/barely interact with each other after the war. What the hell? It's like they got from best friends to stranger after that. All for what, Hinata happiness which must revolve around Naruto because screw developing that character right, let's leave her a one sided character. Messed up the main one for her.

Like they said in the cinemassacre review :They should have made two movie , One B v S and the other Dawn of justice. It felt overload and it really appear to playing the catch up game.

DC rushing things is sad. I think the biggest difference is that they knew going in they had nothing to lose. What I meant by that is that this movie is an event that fan wanted for like 15-20 years. Everyone on the street know who Batman and Superman are. The movie was guaranteed 95% to make huge money, regardless of the quality. The biggest disappointment is if your a Superman fan that doesn't really like Batman.

Considering the hype and that this movie is the foundation of the Justice League, this is bad. The 50/50 split eff is worst for this one. Man of steel had that too. Normally, you check what went wrong and you adjust. They didn't listen to the feedback ( I don't know if it's DC or Snyder to blame here) and continue on. What was good? Everything Batman related ( Batman, Alfred, The cave, the Batmobile XD) Still fail Superman though, which is kind of an important character in justice league, if my memory serve me right. Color won't kill the movie. (At least for sup.) Snyder said he wanted to continue to make movie like Nolan. Thing is, he is not the guy and that tone doesn't work with every DC heroes, 

I did try to resolve the Naruto and Hinata relationship in chapter 5 of my story

Here's a link to it: https://www.fanficti...Should-have-end

Maybe the change of look now is to appeal to the archetype of beauty over the East, but I for one don't think it has anything to do with how it play in the end. Unconditional love is see well in Japan (like why Sasuke is still important for team 7) So we've got Sakura loving Sasuke. Naruto Loving Sakura and on the sideline, Hinata love Naruto.

I understand that somewhere along the way, you have to make a choice since when you look at those, they can't all happen. Where I'm not agreeing is when we read this story, we can clearly see that the author ain't the most subtle dude in the world. (4th being Naruto father was seen a miles away). He literally throw the same team dynamic over and over. ( Sannin and Kakashi's Team where those where easily parallel to the team of main character) . The worst is how he wrote Kushina ( which is basically and confirmed a parallel to Sakura in the manga). The way the story was written and the way he establish the goal of Naruto in his first 3 chapter, you know in which direction the story is suppose to go, especially when the motto of your hero is to never give up. He's not suppose to give in on his dream. Beat the rival, win over the girl and being recognize by your village as Hokage. The boy was alone all his childhood and those bonds he form with his teammate are  what matter the most to him. It's a pretty straightforward story.

So when you have to choose from an objective standpoint which pairing route you should take, you should go with the one that take care of the main character goal and interest which is, last time I checked, FREAKING NARUTO. He's the guy that not suppose to give up. He's suppose to be the only one that matter. Winning over Sasuke in their last fight and winning over Sakura's heart is suppose to be a must. If one of those isn't happening, then you needed a really good explanation.

Instead, we've got this. Everything pop in and no build up is done. Hell, even within the war he parallel Karin and Sakura saving respectively Sasuke and Naruto ( Everyone agree about how Karin feel for Sasuke so putting Sakura there in parallel is no coincidence). If he thinks Sasuke should ended up with Sakura, you don't make him act like a kitten toward her during the whole fight with Kaguya, which is way too close of the end of the story show it was a last minute change)

Though Japanese culture is different from ours, I can't say it's cultural. Maybe afterward, when they tried to milk the franchise, yeah, maybe they change her look to fit that perfect beauty standard, anything to make it work but the pairing  decision when it was made was last minute call. That wasn't planned or the guy just don't know how to write( which I find hard to believe, even after the ending we've got.) I can't believe that asspull of an ending like that was planned from the start. Developing in one direction and do a 180 degree is irrational.

The ending panel in 700 with Naruto could parallel even Kishi in that picture. He's a Hokage who is not totally in charge and has to listen to "other leader" (Editor,Pierrot, fanbase). Though he achieve success, I mean by becoming Hokage ( or make a manga that become huge), he didn't feel like he expected it to  and it took all his time away from his family and friend. The ramen cup, the sake etc. In the end, though he's achieve everything he's wanted, he's not happy because he didn't even stay true to himself.  That's the sad reality, he gave in. 

http://truebond.tumb...he-boruto-movie

PRetty much this.

Look the thread out of curiosity. WOW, I thought that at least they tried to fix the character. SO Naruto really sucks even harder as a father then I thought and Bolt wants to be like Sasuke. Hinata took Sakura haircut too which make it somehow kind of weird (I can't have her so look like her fetish). Hokage Naruto is a wimp without Kurama. I suppose that movie confirms it. Man, I read this in 10 min. and I feel bad. Imagine the people who sat there for over an hour. Poor soul. This movie support that since the ending, everything is in  an alternate reality seriously. I mean how much do you want us to hate Naruto. WHO could think this is a good story lol.

Yes, Naruto is still technically the 'hero.' But the story switched halfway through to being about Sasuke. 

 

To me, the problem has always been that Kishimoto was more interested in Sasuke's story (the cool-kid-turned-bad-until-he's-redeemed) than Naruto's story (the hero-who-prevails).

 

For Sasuke....

- his clan backstory was built up and explored.

- Sasuke was tested and failed, again and again.

- His hero's journey was focused on, as were his many skills and power-ups.

- And finally, and most importantly, the whole ending tension centered on trouble from his origin story that only he could defeat by learning the final lesson of using teamwork. (The last brawl between him and Naruto was just a bonus in the end, and had no real bearing on the rest of the overall plot. Whichever one won, they were both going to free everyone else and let them go home. The suspense of the story was already over.)

 

HOWEVER, for Naruto....

- his clan backstory was largely left unexplored, except for when it was useful to the story (Karin's convenient Uzumaki heritage).

- Naruto was tested, but he was always either saved in the end or came out victorious on his own.

- Naruto's hero's journey ended with the Pain arc. There were a few moments of introspection afterwards (like at the waterfall of truth), but the rest of the story was driven by Sasuke's journey of personal goals. 

- And lastly, the final big tension of the story was completely focused on the Uchiha clan. Nothing of the Uzumaki clan or anything that connected directly to Naruto, except Minato. Sure Sasuke and Naruto were supposed to be some reincarnated crap, but to me that seems like a last-minute element to justify Naruto's continued involvement in Sasuke's story.

 

Anyway.... I think Kishimoto lost his way after the Pain arc. It's completely clear now that that's where the story should have ended.

 

His editor left, and the one guiding force that was holding the story together went with him. Kishimoto fell out of love with Naruto's storyline, and since there was no more direction, he was free to fall in love with Sasuke's storyline.

 

That's how, in the end, Sasuke is put on equal 'hero' footing with Naruto, and even being awarded Sakura (for no reason whatsoever), thereby diminishing Naruto's status as main hero even further.

 

So, I would say Naruto was the main hero up to the end of the Pein arc. But afterwards, the story revolved around Sasuke. Naruto's name was still on it, but he was no longer the main hero. He was just left hanging around to look 'heroic.' The main hero role had switched to Sasuke.

I totally agree with you. Especially about the Uzumaki heritage. You only scratch the surface, about having a tough body and being specialize in sealing jutsu. Though the clan was wipe out, no backstory was there to explain why and by whom? 

Sasuke has it all ( taijutsu, genjutsu, sharingan, mangekyou and rinnegan mastery in 20 chapters. plus ninjutsu mastery of fire and lightning that has been explored toward the course of the manga)

Naruto stay only more of the same. Shadow clone & Rasengan with all the variant. He could have grown in mastering wind, which open plenty of opportunity and sealing jutsu being use to stop Sasuke. Even when he got boost like sage mode or nine-tails, it still those same attack (when they said the tailed beast bomb was a rasengan variant, they pretty much nailed that coffin.)

Another problem was the writing of Sasuke as Naruto rival. Sasuke going after Itachi didn't in term of rivalry oppose to Naruto, hell Itachi being an Akatsuki, Sasuke's revenge totally help Naruto (which took place during the whole Akatsuki cool arc). When they make Sasuke an Akatsuki, I thought this was going somewhere, but after Danzo's death and having his surgery, he pretty much ditch the group to join force again with Naruto. They only reveal now that he wants to be Hokage, which is the only real time he become Naruto rival. Sasuke was the plot that didn't make it end at Pain. Worst is it was still fixable to make Naruto the hero. Though he is powerful, no moment show Naruto grow as a leader. that what I expected from the final arc.

The saddest thing you said is in Bold. The ending is taking away in importance most of the 3 point I said when I start this. After the war, nobody really celebrate Naruto or even team 7 triumph. They celebrate their victory like they actually do something. Sasuke stopping the fight to a draw, still makes him better than Naruto, if you count their encounter in shippuden, Sasuke score card is like 2-1-0. Naruto never beats him. Sasuke get Sakura after treating her like she was the lowest life form he encounter. So in this ending, the rival get the girl and is stronger than the hero. Okay. Then timeskip, Naruto appear Hokage, why would I expect a celebration or something to show the triumph of the young dead last at the ninja academy that finally grasp his dream right?  They diminish Naruto become Hokage, get beat by his rival in every point and just to rub it even further, show him at 700 as a douche-bag father that care more about reputation than his own kid. I mean damn it, you were that kid, you kind of know the reason that push you to do it. During the whole freaking story, you connect with people, can you at least connect with your son?

Precisely.

The reality with Naruto is that there is no canon. The so called ending combined with The Last and everything that came up after rendered the entire Naruto story from chapters 1 to 698 as pointless. Making them non-canon.

It doesn't matter what was said or done in those chapters because it has no meaning anymore because what came after erased them from existence. And the same thing could and will happen to whatever crap they're releasing these days.

 

One day they will release either new chapters or anime series or just a interview that will declare that what is done today never happened. Saying it's not canonical. Saying that whatever they do then is. But don't worry will be declared as non-canonical as well later on. In a way you could call it "The never ending cycle of Naruto" where nothing is really canon but what Kishi/they say in that moment in time.

 

And what Kishi/they said will only be canon until the next time Kishi/they say something else or do something else.

 

Nothing is canon. Everything is permitted.

For me, that where the story end. The rest come out from a different timeline. It literally make no sense and throw everything that happen before out of the window. What sad is that Naruto for me end up like on of those TV show that got good at some point, but the guys knew the show was cancel so they butchered and rushed the conclusion, making the whole experience a mess.

Thing is they now tried to milk the franchise, but it's not as great or as popular as it once was (at least for me.) On Netflix, Naruto 1st part arrive. The good old day. Seeing that make me feel sad, angry and disappointed at the same time. Either he didn't think it through with what he was doing or plain lose control, either still hurt by that. I didn't watch much anime and honestly Naruto didn't make me watch other anime. (The only other I watch was dragon ball)  

Thank god I watch Hunter X Hunter (2014), Kill la Kill, One Piece and Rurounin Kenshin afterward. Only One piece is still ongoing and while being longer than Naruto, it's doesn't feel like a drag to watch what happen (cuz that's how I felt during the whole war arc). All of those were fun, fight where great and for the 3 that got an ending, it end well and I felt closure on those story (Hunter X Hunter might continue in book, but there is no update for a long time)

Anyway, Kishi make a mess of this story. Even if it is the author and what he said is canon, as a writer, he must be coherent with his sotry and if he changes idea on a whim, it must be done within time and explanation, not just pop those in a story without a explanation, misleading everyone with OBVIOUS parallel and thing like the new generation will surpass the old one. But it is the freaking sage of the 6 path, who gave both Naruto and Sasuke power to ended the fight, which said to be the father of all ninja, how older can you get. Notstarting on the whole 4 Hokage incident showing how a whole battlefield of ninja are worthless.

It might sound whiny and all but at this point, he loses all right for me to tell me what to believe on his story. That why I say people decide what's canon. He failed to close the story properly. Those questions are just small example of what went wrong.

How Naruto surpasses the previous Kage? With hard work or by being a godlike entity? Without Kurama, does Naruto surpasses the previous Kages? How many wind ninjutsu Naruto knows except Rasen-Shuriken?

Option A can either count up to 698. The conclusion (699-700), The last and everything else after that ain't worth my time (Boruto and the rest in that future) Nope.

Option B. Everything that happen up to the end of the pain arc. Where Naruto has actually triumph, became the leaf hero, villager finallly accept him, Iruka retrospect and monologue to the 3rd and 4th Hokage. Sakura hugging him and thanking him while Hinata watch it all and smile( ACCEPTING IT AND LIVING WITH IT.)  At this point, you either forgot and don't care about Sasuke and the dude with the orange mask or you make your own ending from there, because this is where the story start to go downhill or you just consider Naruto an incomplete manga. (I rather consider it incomplete without an ending than acknowledging the after 698)

In other word, nothing is universally canon, especially with all the ass-pull and the story-shifting that were going in this manga. It's a personal question. For me, I take up to 698 and I take my own ending as canon since I felt like it give more closure to this story. That how bad I think of it by the end. YEAH, I rather be in total denial than accept the illogical mess that start at 699.

Incredible, I'm still pissed about it lol.

One of the project I have, if you want to redo Naruto right is to forget the whole war arc. Everything until pain was great. Don't change any of that. Start the story from here. How Naruto get Sasuke back, while beating him. What's the last push for Sakura to accept her feeling? Making a Rock Lee fan. How make Naruto look like an actual leader worthy of the Hokage mantle. The only way you can keep after the war is the Bee arc, where he trained to control the nine-tails. That was well done. Do something with the remaining Akatsuki ( Zetsu in particular who was a let down). Tobi only teleportation. YEah those two in particular. Don't forget that this story must include as well Kabuto (if you start from there). Madara could appear. You don't need all the other village. Danzo and the elders should be Sasuke 1st goal. 

Just some idea here, if you want to discuss how I saw it, I'll be happy to help because right now, I've got my plate full with the Jonin exam story, if anyone is interested to read it: https://www.fanficti.../The-Jonin-Exam  It's a spin-off story of my how Naruto should have end.

I don't care what the reason was, you DON'T do a fake confession. You just don't, especially in front of a freaking crowd. A NORMAL person would ask Naruto to have a private talk with him and discuss the issue (but I guess Naruto and Sakura acting like normal people was too boring for Kishimoto. Instead, he thought a fake confession and hyperventilation right after, effectively making both characters look pathetic, would spice things up).

Don't forget they 16 here. Sakura's mind has killing Sasuke ALONE in her mind ( backstabbing her teammates (Kiba lee and Sai clone)). It was to lift Naruto burden but also to try to convince him to give up on Sasuke. That confession could have been the last time she talk to Naruto like this in any outcome in her mind. If she's dies at Sasuke's hand, at least she would have tried to protect Naruto. If she killed him, her relationship with Naruto would never have been the same. In front of a crowd ain't the problem, especially in your first confession at 16, that can be a mistake you make ( YEAH I SADLY DID THAT).

Naruto hyperventilate was too much of his world crumbling at the same time (learning Sasuke attacking the Kage summit as an Akatsuki, Sakura's intention to kill Sasuke herself while all his classmates approve, The truth behind the Uchiha massacre that he can't reveal). I understand that all those information were too much for him, especially since he has to chose a hard position in this.

However I totally agree with you about Kishi writing normal character in his manga. I mean Naruto become friend with Sasuke at 12. They didn't even spend a year together and Naruto goes to so much length to save him. How come that bond become this deep and goes this far?

Seems like some of us have the courage to read that story. Count me out.

I mean every character I care were rape. Now it's all about them making money. I won't give a dime nor time. I waste enough time with the war arc, I was reading it because I was to far in the story so I needed to see the end, we know how that goes:P. I thought I was over this, but it seem that's not the case.

http://truebond.tumb...ieve-this-scene

~_~ This is disheartening...

This is so sad . I'm can't believe how bad that movie show both girl being pathetic. This show the only dream a girl has is a man. The HELL. Sakura pushing Hinata toward Naruto this way is so bad. This movie is two hour and Hinata start as a stalker (no development in the afterwar post) Screw her being a clan leader, changing the Hyuga or anything, she's just a lovesick puppy. As for Sakura, giving Naruto to her seems like the f*c* and for Sasuke sake again, what did he ever do damn it.

Seeing Sarada looking so much like Karin, I felt like those children were pre-drawn and he didn't even bother to change them  when he decide to change direction. (FORGETTING THE BYAKUGAN REALLY??). I smell an asspull in part 3 that will explain that. Too bad nobody will know because I don't see anyone read part 3 after that kind of asspull, by that I don't mean just the pairing but the war arc as a whole.

 

Before anyone rants, this is NOT about NaruSaku despair... It's about H&E despair. This site has meant a lot to me and to others, but it is rapidly falling down on it's broken foundation.

 

Sooo many people have simply stopped visiting this site, whether gradually like most or suddenly, it took about 2 months after the ass-pull ending and failed continuation, but it's happening quickly. Many people still consider themselves NaruSaku/Naruto fans, but whether or not this is true, almost none of them are active or care as much as they once did, they're simply giving up on Naruto. 

 

Many of you will object greatly, but first think about it, did you not go on this site for a while out of forgetfulness? Did you stop caring? Even if you don't fall into this category think about it? Do you care as much? If you do, remember many people don't care as much anymore. This isn't a recommendation or criticism, it's simply me pointing out the obvious (forgive me). 

 

I'm not speaking from some high and mighty position, I haven't posted in almost 3 weeks.

 

Even the remainder of people on the site don't care as much and are talking about other things.

 

I am NOT saying shut down the site or something as stupid as that, but remember this.

 

You are only allowed to post if you're locking this thread or have more than 3 friend and all of them are as active as previously.

 

(You have to click on this picture to understand, because if you think Naruto is still this, then you're seriously misguided)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you. But I don't blame people. I mean after the asspull he did and the future pierrot got for Naruto. I mean I liked NS, I do still ship them and I did make an ending about that. But the fact is that Naruto for me ended badly. I found some closure and I did start to move on. I did start to come not as much as I used too, not because I stop believing but because I start to move on. There is no part 3 for me and no way to repair the damage really. I mean I was at work yesterday, people were talking about Naruto part 1 and from what I gather, they don't know that filler aren't canon, so they see Naruto started to get close to Hinata durin the filler when he saw her dance. I didnt barge in, didn't do anything, but I did feel bad about it. They knew the ending , Naruto ending up with Hinata (tell that their daughter is ugly) but it felt normal and I begin to understand how far the damage was done.

When we read the story only, they're is nothing that point toward it, The anime is more watched than the manga I suppose, so in the end, they decide what was best for selling money. I felt that this is wrong, I hope that it comeback to hunt them but I can't do anything about it. I've read some fanfiction about the ending, god do people fix it or what. I mean how did the real mangacome up with such an awful ending. 

I'm working on a spin-off story about my ending, though I'm still in thinking process, I'm gonna write it for sure. But yeah, I might not come here as often. I came here once a week (when the manga was running and 4 to 5 time a week when it got that ending) . 

The sad reality is, a part of me did give up on Naruto. I mean the ending was sellout, the character spit on what their used to be. I stop playing any related Naruto video and card games. I was hurt and a part of me hate what the character has become. Even if I believe this ending is in an alternate universe or something, the story continue to follow this guy who become a douchebag. Same goes for Sakura. A part of me hate her as well, becoming Sasuke's puppy. But nothing compare to what I felt for Hinata, a character I never care about. The level of hatred I've got for her cannot be explain. Even if I know those are character and they aren't real, only the people behind it, I hate her now because it's the character that destroyed the whole thing. How a side character ( 3rd rate side character, she wasn't a Shikamaru or a Rock lee 1st part or Gaara) become a main character and destroyed the story. I blame Pierrot, I blame her, I blame Kishi and Hinata voice actress as well.

People were hurt, cheat of their patience and time by this ending and some of them were troll and we can almost said hunt down by stupid internet people. Yep, I understand your concern about the site but  I understand why some stop to come or tried to move on as well.