32 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

Simple reason; Hinata and Sakura are women, therefore their feelings are given more weight. 

It'd be wrong and CREEPY of Naruto to force his feelings on Sakura but its okay for her to do so to Sasuke and for Hinata to stalk Naruto because by and large, the two genders have different rules. It sucks but that does seem to be the case. 

 

YEAAAAH, notice how sexist that is?    the women are defined by their romantic relationships, that's why their feelings take precedence over the men's 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

YEAAAAH, notice how sexist that is?    the women are defined by their romantic relationships, that's why their feelings take precedence over the men's 

Well I never said it was a good thing   

its largely true in the case of Naruto. Virtually all the main girls are motivated by love I'd argue that the only difference between Sakura and Hinata is that Sakura's extends a lot further. She doesn't just love Sasuke, she's not just willing to die for him alone. Sakura will sacrifice herself for almost anyone. Some random old lady she just met, Naruto...  Actually--when we really boil Naruto down, the entire main cast is motivated by some form of love. 

 

It almost felt like a rebuke of this mentality when kishi went with obito and rin even though rin was in love with kakashi her feelings were insignificant next to the power of obito's (sorry the star wars day hasn't worn off). Also I don't think Kishi really wanted this outcome (nh and ss) since it isn't the outcome in dragon quest: dai no daibouken which i highly suspect kishimoto based the whole love triangle (love square? Trapezoid?) on

Did he though? Sure, Obito loved Rin GREATLY but it didn't change her own feelings and then she died. If we're talking about how the two of them went off to the after life together, how do we know that's what really happened and not just Obito's dying brain dreaming it up? 

Maybe I'm being cynical but in light of the ending, how can I not be? 

I don't think he had a heart for this outcome either but its still what we got, regardless of all the romantic parallels he built up. 

[Therece]

It almost felt like a rebuke of this mentality when kishi went with obito and rin even though rin was in love with kakashi her feelings were insignificant next to the power of obito's (sorry the star wars day hasn't worn off). Also I don't think Kishi really wanted this outcome (nh and ss) since it isn't the outcome in dragon quest: dai no daibouken which i highly suspect kishimoto based the whole love triangle (love square? Trapezoid?) on

Kishimoto did with Obito/Rin what he should have done with  NaruSaku but  without the psycho and stalker Naruto.

Rin feelings to Kakashi never were important.

Kakashi tried to push Rin to Obito.

Rin ins't agressive and supported Obito since childhood.
Obito's feelings to rin was 99% of his character.
Obito was obcessive with Rin.

Obito didn't have a Hinata.

But he did the exact opposite to NaruSaku.
He focused too much in Sakura's feelings to Sasuke and scenes between them in a point to create a massive fanatical pairing fandom. So most of the Sakura's fans and girls simpatized much more with Sakura and rooted for SasuSaku instead Naruto and NaruSaku. Sasuke is  popular and  a complex character. So most of the Sasuke's fangirls will root for him instead Naruto too.

Not to mention the entire Naruto fanboys who  wants Naruto with the cute girl who idolizes him instead of the aggressive insensitive kitten who loves his arch nemesis. Sakura Fangirls and Naruto fanboys are practically natural enemies. Only NaruSaku fans loves both characters or in some cases not.

Edited by Therece, 12 May 2023 - 04:45 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Well I never said it was a good thing    

its largely true in the case of Naruto. Virtually all the main girls are motivated by love I'd argue that the only difference between Sakura and Hinata is that Sakura's extends a lot further. She doesn't just love Sasuke, she's not just willing to die for him alone. Sakura will sacrifice herself for almost anyone. Some random old lady she just met, Naruto...  Actually--when we really boil Naruto down, the entire main cast is motivated by some form of love. 

 

Did he though? Sure, Obito loved Rin GREATLY but it didn't change her own feelings and then she died. If we're talking about how the two of them went off to the after life together, how do we know that's what really happened and not just Obito's dying brain dreaming it up? 

Maybe I'm being cynical but in light of the ending, how can I not be? 

I don't think he had a heart for this outcome either but its still what we got, regardless of all the romantic parallels he built up. 

 

Oh don't mind me, that comment wasn't directed at you. I meant just in general, the double standards of it. It's fine to subjugate the women to that mentality but not the men it seems. But yeah I understand the reasoning, I'm just saying it is rather hypocritical and again sexist if anyone was to abide by that reasoning and then flip it around saying women are not defined by being mothers and home makers 

Edited by Phantom_999, 11 May 2023 - 10:16 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Its weird because Kishimoto showed that he actually COULD handle long-term, unrequited love pretty well in Jiraiya/Tsunade. Jiraiya continues to love her, doesn't press the issue and be a "creep" about it. (Although I have met a few people who absolutely hate him because he peeks on women in the baths.) 

This man is so inconsistent with his writing and his words its unreal. Its like if genius and stupidity were embodied in a single man 

[BlueStarSaber]

Kishimoto did with Obito/Rin what he should have done with  NaruSaku but  without the psycho and stalker Naruto.

Rin feelings to Kakashi never were important.
Kakashi tried to push Rin to Obito.
Rin ins't agressive and supported Obito since childhood.
Obito's feelings to rin was 99% of his character.
Obito was obcessive with Rin.
Obito didn't have a Hinata.

But he did the exact opposite to NaruSaku.
He focused too much in Sakura's feelings to Sasuke and scenes between them in a point to create a massive fanatical pairing fandom. So most of the Sakura's fans and girls simpatized much more with Sakura and rooted for SasuSaku instead Naruto and NaruSaku. Sasuke is  popular and  a complex character. So most of the Sasuke's fangirls will root for him instead Naruto too.
Not to mention the entire Naruto fanboys who  wants Naruto with the cute girl who idolizes him instead of the aggressive insensitive kitten who loves his arch nemesis. Sakura Fangirls and Naruto fanboys are practically natural enemies. Only NaruSaku fans loves both characters or in some cases not.

Kakashi never pushed obito to rin he just told her he was in love with her while he was the type of scum that was going to abandon her when she was about to confess.

Not mention obito's motivation of it all being about rin was controversial within the fandom at the time the series was ongoing. Its why many ended up preferring madara as the final boss

They is nothing wrong with sakura disliking naruto at first and coming to loving him later. It's typical for a standard love triangle where a boy likes a girl, but the girls like another boy however the guy she likes has no intrest in her and evently the girl ends up liking the boy who likes her in turn. Like it happens in percy jackson or from my understanding slam dunk which the love triangle from naruto is based on.

It should of been been obvious, execpt many shippers where obsessed with the good girl save the bad boy trope and refused to admit it crossed a line in the kage summit arc.

[Phantom_999]

Its weird because Kishimoto showed that he actually COULD handle long-term, unrequited love pretty well in Jiraiya/Tsunade. Jiraiya continues to love her, doesn't press the issue and be a "creep" about it. (Although I have met a few people who absolutely hate him because he peeks on women in the baths.) 

This man is so inconsistent with his writing and his words its unreal. Its like if genius and stupidity were embodied in a single man 

 

Well just remember he wasn't the one that wrote "The Last" though He just thought that the writers were "giving the fans what they wanted" so he okayed it. NOT thinking that pushing alternate agendas is not good for any story if it contradicts the message you want to portray.

[Bail o' Lies]

Villains in stories often and should be challenges to hero beyond the physical whether that be emotional, psychological, or ideological. This is often done by the villain being a dark reflection of the hero; often of a certain trait to both challenge and warn the hero.

 

In the latest chapter of the Mirai manga it made pretty clear the Ryuki is a dark reflection of Mirai's dissatisfaction of the current era. That they, by living in an era of peace are unable to match the generation that came before them.

 

In Kotor II: The Sith Lords. The Titular Villains, the Sith Lords, are a dark reflection of the heroine the Jedi Exile. The Jedi Exile was a general in the Mandalorian War with an innate talent to create force bonds to strengthen her, during the final battle of the war she was betrayed by her leader, Darth Revan, by being order to activate a doomsday weapon the Mass Shadow Generator, the backlash of the mass death happening all at once made her cut herself off from the Force, but she in the game comes back defeats the Sith and her students go on to restore the Jedi Order that lasted for nearly 4000 years after her death. Darth Nihilus, Lord of Hunger, was an extreme of her relying on her force bond power to feed off others for strength; he became so consumed by his own power, he consumed his own body, and had to bind himself to his armor to survive. Darth Sion, Lord of Pain, is a dark reflection of her relying on the force to sustain herself; he became a walking corpse that could only survive by the Force. Darth Traya, Lord of Betrayal, both were betrayed by the Sith and exiled by the Jedi; Traya all the Jedi she trained followed Revan and fell to the darkside, she trained the other two lords in how to use their power which led to being consumed by their power, then betraying her, and she trained the Exile for revenge. Beyond the Exile, no other student survive to pass on her teaching leading them to mostly die with her beyond what the Exile taught to the Jedi. As Traya is the final boss she therefor is the greatest of the dark reflections of the Exile. IE Darth Revan's betrayal or in the game desire for revenge against the Jedi Council for exiling her was the greatest danger that could have led to her falling to the darkside. 

 

Back to Naruto. As Obito is Naruto's greatest dark reflection he represents what is the greatest danger of what could make Naruto fall. Sakura's death at the hands of Sasuke. Why is that? Because, until the last moment of the manga, he was in love with her! That's why Naruto understood and forgave him. Without Naruto's love of Sakura, the story doesn't work.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 26 June 2023 - 01:12 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Oh, to think of all the things this story could have been. 

Instead we get:
"You only liked me because of your rivalry with Sasuke." and "Naruto doesn't understand love. He loved Sakura like a potato and thought Hinata wanted to eat him." completely invalidating the entire character and his motivations.   

They could have done that "Breakup" Respectfully, "I know you like me, and for a time I thought I liked you to but...nothing ever came of it and there's someone else out there who you should give a chance to." But Nah Hinata had to be HIS FIRST AND ONLY LOVE.

Obito being Naruto's dark mirror was such an interesting concept that was also ruined. Like I'm glad Obito redeemed himself but Naruto never needed to call him a "Cool guy" and proceed to copy his haircut. its just kittening weird. 

[ThroughWithLove]

Villains in stories often and should be challenges to hero beyond the physical whether that be emotional, psychological, or ideological. This is often done by the villain being a dark reflection of the hero; often of a certain trait to both challenge and warn the hero.

 

In the latest chapter of the Mirai manga it made pretty clear the Ryuki is a dark reflection of Mirai's dissatisfaction of the current era. That they by living in an era of peace are unable to match the generation the came before them.

 

In Kotor II: The Sith Lords. The Titular Villains, the Sith Lords, are a dark reflection of the heroine the Jedi Exile. The Jedi Exile was a general in the Mandalorian War with an innate talent to create force bonds to strengthen her, during the final battle of the war she was betrayed by her leader, Darth Revan, by being order to activate a doomsday weapon the Mass Shadow Generator, the backlash of the mass death happening all at once made her cut herself off from the Force, but she in the game comes back defeats the Sith and her students go on to restore the Jedi Order that lasted for nearly 4000 years after her death. Darth Nihilus, Lord of Hunger, was an extreme of her relying on her force bond power to feed off others for strength; he became so consumed by his own power, he consumed his own body, and had to bind himself to his armor to survive. Darth Sion, Lord of Pain, is a dark reflection of her relying on the force to sustain herself; he became a walking corpse that could only survive by the Force. Darth Traya, Lord of Betrayal, both were betrayed by the Sith and exiled by the Jedi; Traya all the Jedi she trained followed Revan and fell to the darkside, she trained the other two lords in how to use their power which led to being consumed by their power, then betraying her, and she trained the Exile for revenge. Beyond the Exile, no other student survive to pass on her teaching leading them to mostly die with her beyond what the Exile taught to the Jedi. As Traya is the final boss she therefor is the greatest of the dark reflections of the Exile. IE Darth Revan's betrayal or in the game revenge against the Jedi Council for exiling her was the greatest danger that could have led to her falling to the darkside. 

 

Back to Naruto. As Obito is Naruto's greatest dark reflection he represents what is the greatest danger of what could make Naruto fall. Sakura's death at the hands of Sasuke. Why is that? Because, until the last moment of the manga he was in love with her. That's why Naruto understood and forgave him. Without Naruto's love of Sakura, the story doesn't work.

 

Beautifully written post and well said. The obvious parallel between Rin and Sakura should have been brought to light and this story and this story is criminally worse for not having even ATTEMPTED to bring this up AT ANY POINT during any of Naruto's confrontations with Obito. 

 

Oh, to think of all the things this story could have been. 

Instead we get:
"You only liked me because of your rivalry with Sasuke." and "Naruto doesn't understand love. He loved Sakura like a potato and thought Hinata wanted to eat him." completely invalidating the entire character and his motivations.   

They could have done that "Breakup" Respectfully, "I know you like me, and for a time I thought I liked you to but...nothing ever came of it and there's someone else out there who you should give a chance to." But Nah Hinata had to be HIS FIRST AND ONLY LOVE.

Obito being Naruto's dark mirror was such an interesting concept that was also ruined. Like I'm glad Obito redeemed himself but Naruto never needed to call him a "Cool guy" and proceed to copy his haircut. its just kittening weird. 

 

This. Horrendous. Horrendous. Horrendous. Horrendous storytelling. You do not set up a BLATANT parallel between the main character's love interest and the main villain's love interest and then DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. NS being endgame was plain as day.

[Bail o' Lies]

The only defense of Naruto forgiving Obito is in the manga. When he having the tug of war of the tailed beast. Naruto sees Obito's past and Rin causing him to shed a tear. Hinting that he understood why Obito did what he did and ended up forgiving him. Granted clearly Kishimoto should have been more blatant.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Why's Naruto shedding a tear? Obito only loved Rin as a Potato he wanted to eat. You can get a potato anywhere...  
 

 

 

Well just remember he wasn't the one that wrote "The Last" though He just thought that the writers were "giving the fans what they wanted" so he okayed it. NOT thinking that pushing alternate agendas is not good for any story if it contradicts the message you want to portray.

Sure he didn't write it, but he knew what the script was because they allowed him to make edits IIRC and this is STILL what we got. I'd hate to see what the film looked like before he edited it because the end result is hot garbage.

[Nostradamus]

In Kotor II: The Sith Lords. The Titular Villains, the Sith Lords, are a dark reflection of the heroine the Jedi Exile. The Jedi Exile was a general in the Mandalorian War with an innate talent to create force bonds to strengthen her, during the final battle of the war she was betrayed by her leader, Darth Revan, by being order to activate a doomsday weapon the Mass Shadow Generator, the backlash of the mass death happening all at once made her cut herself off from the Force, but she in the game comes back defeats the Sith and her students go on to restore the Jedi Order that lasted for nearly 4000 years after her death. Darth Nihilus, Lord of Hunger, was an extreme of her relying on her force bond power to feed off others for strength; he became so consumed by his own power, he consumed his own body, and had to bind himself to his armor to survive. Darth Sion, Lord of Pain, is a dark reflection of her relying on the force to sustain herself; he became a walking corpse that could only survive by the Force. Darth Traya, Lord of Betrayal, both were betrayed by the Sith and exiled by the Jedi; Traya all the Jedi she trained followed Revan and fell to the darkside, she trained the other two lords in how to use their power which led to being consumed by their power, then betraying her, and she trained the Exile for revenge. Beyond the Exile, no other student survive to pass on her teaching leading them to mostly die with her beyond what the Exile taught to the Jedi. As Traya is the final boss she therefor is the greatest of the dark reflections of the Exile. IE Darth Revan's betrayal or in the game desire for revenge against the Jedi Council for exiling her was the greatest danger that could have led to her falling to the darkside. 

 

 

A Kotor II fan? No wonder you're this good.

To anyone who hasn't played this game, I highly recommend it, not really because of the gameplay itself, but for the story and the dialogue.

Everything that Kreia says is absolutely on a different level. It's a story that actually makes you think, not just about it, but also about life.

At this point it's a really old game so any machine can play it, however if you don't want to play it, I recommend going on YT and searching Kreia quotes. I'm going to be honest for anyone who's read my long rants, I've used quotes from her in them.

A little taste: