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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#51541 Derock

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 07:44 PM

I'd go mk9 it had the better reboot granted that wound up killing almost everyone from the series

 

I prefer Soul Calibur 6's reboot because the team downright made sure Patroklos from 5 should not exist (as he's the fans' unpopular and unfavorite character) by making Cassandra giving out different names to Sophitia in her wedding.

 

SC6

 

Mortal Kombat was okay but didn't need to kill almost single good guy. While 11's story was good, it messed up some stuff, especially with recently when they released Sindel.


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#51542 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 09:44 PM

Kishi wanted NS to happen. He was scammed into making NH canon via, people will love the story more, you will get more money to go this route, etc. instead of going the way he intended it to go.


So it's more the studio and fans fault than his.

#51543 DrK

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 01:49 AM

Who loves it besides the NH shippers? Even when you take out the terrible couples, the ending overall was trash.

The pairings and the ending can't be looked at separately. It was trash because of them.

 

You can't force all 3 main characters (team 7) into roles they were never meant to be in and have anything positive come out of it. Every other character is connected to one or more of them in some way and so they fail to get a proper resolution because of the main 3 not getting a proper resolution.

 

Everyone should understand that nothing good will come out of something that is FORCED. Naruto forces himself to be with Hinata and so he is miserable. A good movie comes out and the studio forces a sequel to make more money and so it sucks. Kishi forces himself to do NHSS for whatever reason and his work as well as all offshoots of it suck (and I get the impression he wasn't even prescient enough to know that this would happen. For whatever reason.)

 

There aren't very many exceptions to this. If something good comes out of something that was forced then it's because someone with talent and passion for whatever it is got involved. No one like that works at SP.

 

Don't ever force anything creative that you do. It will suck.


Edited by DrK, 25 February 2020 - 01:52 AM.


#51544 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 03:02 AM

 

I prefer Soul Calibur 6's reboot because the team downright made sure Patroklos from 5 should not exist (as he's the fans' unpopular and unfavorite character) by making Cassandra giving out different names to Sophitia in her wedding.

 

SC6

 

Mortal Kombat was okay but didn't need to kill almost single good guy. While 11's story was good, it messed up some stuff, especially with recently when they released Sindel.

 

Even as bad as Patroklos was done, he at least started to try to redeem himself for his mistakes when he had killed Pyrrha when she was more Malfested by Soul Edge, even if Elysium refused to let him try to stop her mad obsession to destroy Soul Edge. But yeah, he wasn't handled as well as he could have. And it felt like SC5 really didn't have anyone on it who had a passion for Soul to make it as good as it could have been.

 

In the case of Soul Calibur 6, it also expands on stuff that was supposedly in the old timeline, while the new one also may have other things to reveal that were behind the scenes in the old timeline that could be out in the open in the new timeline. If something like that is done for Naruto, I'd be down to see what could be done.



#51545 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 11:46 AM

So it's more the studio and fans fault than his.

 

I give Kishi most of the blame for being so weak mentally, that he let others tell him what to do with his own creation, even when he knew his route was the perfect way to go. They offered him the forbidden fruit, but he could have declined it. However, it's obvious if things went his way, NS would be canon, SK would be canon, Sakura-Chan would have been way more amazing in the story, and she wouldn't be flip-flopping with her feelings all the time( one chapter she realizes Naruto is the one for her, and the next chapter, she's crying and missing Sasuke.) 


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#51546 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 12:03 PM

 
I give Kishi most of the blame for being so weak mentally, that he let others tell him what to do with his own creation, even when he knew his route was the perfect way to go. They offered him the forbidden fruit, but he could have declined it. However, it's obvious if things went his way, NS would be canon, SK would be canon, Sakura-Chan would have been way more amazing in the story, and she wouldn't be flip-flopping with her feelings all the time( one chapter she realizes Naruto is the one for her, and the next chapter, she's crying and missing Sasuke.) 

So there's equal blame on him and the studio
Agreed character consistency is sorely lacking in Naruto

#51547 Nate River

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 03:04 AM

The pairings and the ending can't be looked at separately. It was trash because of them.

 

You can't force all 3 main characters (team 7) into roles they were never meant to be in and have anything positive come out of it. Every other character is connected to one or more of them in some way and so they fail to get a proper resolution because of the main 3 not getting a proper resolution.

 

Everyone should understand that nothing good will come out of something that is FORCED. Naruto forces himself to be with Hinata and so he is miserable. A good movie comes out and the studio forces a sequel to make more money and so it sucks. Kishi forces himself to do NHSS for whatever reason and his work as well as all offshoots of it suck (and I get the impression he wasn't even prescient enough to know that this would happen. For whatever reason.)

 

There aren't very many exceptions to this. If something good comes out of something that was forced then it's because someone with talent and passion for whatever it is got involved. No one like that works at SP.

 

Don't ever force anything creative that you do. It will suck.

 I disagree. The pairings were an ember to an already burning dumpster fire. Had they been done well, they could have mitigated the terrible ending, but they were not the cause and they would not have saved it.

 

Part 2’s main objective was to set up the Naruto-Sasuke fight at the end. As it progressed it was clear it was setting both a physical and metaphysical fight. But the whole thing fell on its face because Sasuke never developed a coherent philosophy that audience could at least understand or emphasize with. It made no sense at all. Worse, after they draw, Sasuke basically says, okay let’s do it your way. He doesn’t appear sold on Naruto’s way and nothing is said to make a convince case why Sasuke should have agreed other than that his own was so poor, Naruto’s wins by default. He lost a fight..so what? What did that show him about Naruto’s philosophy or what did he come to understand in the process. Nothing that I can see. 

 

Speaking of philosophy, the pairings had nothing to do with the series, and Naruto in particular, avoiding natural (and expected) reactions to Naruto redemptions. Gedo Mazo, leaving it to nameless mooks to cheer Kakashi nearly killing Obito, etc. 

 

Changing the pairings or improving the writing around would not have fixed that. It would have no given Kaguya a character or undone Naruto’s “cool guy” line,

 

The parings were bad, but pale in comparison to everything else because they all deal with the series core plot and basic message. For me, the pairings were a major contributor this mess in only one case and that was 693 when Sakura’s entire character development was tossed in the trash, but then again, by that point, it was already an disaster that couldn’t be fixed.



#51548 DrK

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 04:03 AM

I disagree.

I can LOOK PAST everything you listed if I still found the world and characters tolerable. The Buu arc of DBZ introduced many things that I and others might deem as undesirable but in the end I still like those characters and that world. The pairings lend far more permanence to character flaws in Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke that could have been overlooked or seen as temporary.

 

For example the cool guy moment has become emblematic of all the problems Naruto has as a character. But that had potential to just be a cringeworthy moment like Goku giving Cell a senzu bean. You or I or anyone else with a critical eye could take that scene and say that it ruined Goku as a character, but that wouldn't be a reasonable statement in my opinion. To say that certain more extreme aspects of his characterization in Super ruined his character would be far more reasonable.

 

Because that's where we are now instead of something in the past that could be viewed as episodic. And no matter what happened I find it far more tolerable to have "Oh, well a lot of dumb stuff happened" over "Hey a lot of dumb stuff happened AND the main characters went on to live lives that are entirely perverse given what was established about them"

 

At the end of the day if I still LIKE something then there is no criticism that is going to ruin it for me. Without the issue of pairings then I feel that at worst I would be saying "yeah, it's AWFUL, but I still like it..." And it would be far from the only thing I say that about.

 

I'm willing to let things go. Up to a point.



#51549 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 05:08 PM

 I disagree. The pairings were an ember to an already burning dumpster fire. Had they been done well, they could have mitigated the terrible ending, but they were not the cause and they would not have saved it.

 

Part 2’s main objective was to set up the Naruto-Sasuke fight at the end. As it progressed it was clear it was setting both a physical and metaphysical fight. But the whole thing fell on its face because Sasuke never developed a coherent philosophy that audience could at least understand or emphasize with. It made no sense at all. Worse, after they draw, Sasuke basically says, okay let’s do it your way. He doesn’t appear sold on Naruto’s way and nothing is said to make a convince case why Sasuke should have agreed other than that his own was so poor, Naruto’s wins by default. He lost a fight..so what? What did that show him about Naruto’s philosophy or what did he come to understand in the process. Nothing that I can see. 

 

Speaking of philosophy, the pairings had nothing to do with the series, and Naruto in particular, avoiding natural (and expected) reactions to Naruto redemptions. Gedo Mazo, leaving it to nameless mooks to cheer Kakashi nearly killing Obito, etc. 

 

Changing the pairings or improving the writing around would not have fixed that. It would have no given Kaguya a character or undone Naruto’s “cool guy” line,

 

The parings were bad, but pale in comparison to everything else because they all deal with the series core plot and basic message. For me, the pairings were a major contributor this mess in only one case and that was 693 when Sakura’s entire character development was tossed in the trash, but then again, by that point, it was already an disaster that couldn’t be fixed.

 

I know what you mean on a lot of that kind of stuff, man. Not to mention that there's how some of the characters are written even before things got worse near the end and didn't get as good of development as they could have, like how I feel Shikamaru should have grown to NOT want to replace Asuma but to be able to be his own kind of ninja as well as to realize the flaws of the ninja world AND to learn to use his heart more than just relying alone on his head.

 

The idea too of Naruto getting respect for Obito due to their similar dreams really felt terrible too given what Obito took from him, as well as trying to make Madara too sympathetic rather than just making him a good example of how "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

 

I could go on into what I feel coulda been better, but I'd be ranting a lot if I did. XD



#51550 DrK

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 01:04 AM

The idea too of Naruto getting respect for Obito due to their similar dreams really felt terrible too given what Obito took from him, as well as trying to make Madara too sympathetic rather than just making him a good example of how "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

I thought there was actually some subtlety... or maybe it would be better to say restraint in how he wrote Madara. It was a parallel to Itachi except Madara was not the saint Itachi was. Or rather was made into. Itachi as written was basically the ultimate Hokage (and Kishi meant for you to understand this by how he had Sasuke blatantly say so)... While Hashirama was really a failure and it's unknown what Madara would have become.

 

Hashirama was basically Kakashi 2.0. I am strong but all my friends are dead.

 

It's legitimately sympathetic writing how Hashi wanted Madara to be the Hokage but he wouldn't or couldn't push the issue when Tobirama told him it would never happen. And it's legitimately poignant to think about how Madara probably let himself believe in that (and Hashirama himself) only to be utterly frustrated and disgusted by the way things were. That's decent writing IMO and interesting. What you propose might have been better but only because Kishi absolutely EXHAUSTED everyone with the sympathy for villains before that. But Madara himself was actually a good character, I think. Especially his design.


Edited by DrK, 27 February 2020 - 01:06 AM.


#51551 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 04:24 AM

Could someone photoshop Thanos wiping off half of the Naruto Universe?


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#51552 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 11:44 AM

Could someone photoshop Thanos wiping off half of the Naruto Universe?


Oh I love that but keep Sakura as a survivor but Naruto and hinata and Sasuke have to get dusted.

#51553 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 11:46 AM

I thought there was actually some subtlety... or maybe it would be better to say restraint in how he wrote Madara. It was a parallel to Itachi except Madara was not the saint Itachi was. Or rather was made into. Itachi as written was basically the ultimate Hokage (and Kishi meant for you to understand this by how he had Sasuke blatantly say so)... While Hashirama was really a failure and it's unknown what Madara would have become.
 
Hashirama was basically Kakashi 2.0. I am strong but all my friends are dead.
 
It's legitimately sympathetic writing how Hashi wanted Madara to be the Hokage but he wouldn't or couldn't push the issue when Tobirama told him it would never happen. And it's legitimately poignant to think about how Madara probably let himself believe in that (and Hashirama himself) only to be utterly frustrated and disgusted by the way things were. That's decent writing IMO and interesting. What you propose might have been better but only because Kishi absolutely EXHAUSTED everyone with the sympathy for villains before that. But Madara himself was actually a good character, I think. Especially his design.

Odd thing nomura had better results with doing something like that with xehanort in kh3 but xehanort actually conseced to sora at the end unlike madara or sasuke.

#51554 Nostradamus

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 01:35 PM

I would definitely feel sympathy for Kishi if that was the case but I've never seen anything suggesting that it was. And even if it was they would not be able to control him speaking about it. But it's clearly not in his character to rock the boat... and this is putting it mildly. It just seems to be the way he is. Unlike for instance Kubo who was stubborn about Orihime.

Here's the thing we do not have access to his contract and because of this we can only say who we think is to blame based on what we have access to.

I've said this before I don't want to appear that I'm defending Kishi, but to me based on how things happened and what happened and also looking and knowing about other projects and how things work, I don't see him being the one that made the choice to do the things that were present in the manga and outside of it. I don't see a single individual making a decision, I see a group of people who had no idea what they are selling and made a decision based on charts and predictions of potential sales numbers which they believed will make them more money. And since this is unfortunately a business and the purpose of any business is to make MORE money, it's not to make money, it's to make MORE money. That's what ultimately the decision was based on and who made it. I call them the money men. Because these are the people with the necessary money to fund whatever project you have, to promote it, to advertise it, to make sure it can be bought, etc. And unfortunately those are also the ones who make decisions since they are the ones who payed for it.

I know very well that to some people such a thing sounds ludicrous, that a group of people in charge didn't even know what their product is and why that product is popular, but you would be surprised on often this happens. Just look at any industry and you'll find plenty of examples.

 

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#51555 Phantom_999

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 09:19 PM

This is true, there are those that make the business decisions of what they are marketing without actually having an idea of what their prodcut is or what makes it popular. I hear stories of businesses like that where the top dogs or  C.E.O.s are not the ones with the actual skills to do the majority of the work in companies nor do the products that they sell actually come to their attention nor  the basis for its popularity most of the time. All they do is just watch and make sure that the company's gross amount rises. The ones that are the backbone of the company and doing the actually labors and makes sure the company and business runs smoothly are the workers, whom ironically, are viewed as expendable by the executives at their convenience.

 


you could be the creator of something and not own it? Couldn't be me. My creation, my property.

 

It happens in real life, I assure you. I'll use an example that you can personally appreciate. Superman. Jerome/Jerry Siegel And Joe Shuster do not own Superman despite being his creators. The rights to Superman have been past over and over again throughout the years, which is why there are so many writers for the character etc. etc. and so many interpretations of him. In fact any comic book character you can think of works like that. You CAN own an intellectual property, but that is only if the company permits it via your contract.  If a company is not willing to give you rights to your intellectual property, there lies the problem. So you either fight for it or break things off and look for another company willing to compromise, but trust me, many are not that generous, and if others are not willing to promote and fund your work, what can you do? Point is, there are many intellectual properties in which are not owned by their creators, unfortunately. It's not fair, but that's life. 

 

With that out of the way, As I understand Manga creators DO have the intellectual rights to their work, more or less but remember the company is the one publishing it so it's not like things are totally free for them. I am under the assumption that Kishi was just tired of Writing Naruto and so gave up his rights and interest in it. That was when things REALLY went down hill. But again that is only an assumption on my part.


Edited by Phantom_999, 01 March 2020 - 12:56 PM.

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#51556 DrK

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 11:52 PM

Here's the thing we do not have access to his contract and because of this we can only say who we think is to blame based on what we have access to.

I've said this before I don't want to appear that I'm defending Kishi, but to me based on how things happened and what happened and also looking and knowing about other projects and how things work, I don't see him being the one that made the choice to do the things that were present in the manga and outside of it. I don't see a single individual making a decision, I see a group of people who had no idea what they are selling and made a decision based on charts and predictions of potential sales numbers which they believed will make them more money. And since this is unfortunately a business and the purpose of any business is to make MORE money, it's not to make money, it's to make MORE money. That's what ultimately the decision was based on and who made it. I call them the money men. Because these are the people with the necessary money to fund whatever project you have, to promote it, to advertise it, to make sure it can be bought, etc. And unfortunately those are also the ones who make decisions since they are the ones who payed for it.

I know very well that to some people such a thing sounds ludicrous, that a group of people in charge didn't even know what their product is and why that product is popular, but you would be surprised on often this happens. Just look at any industry and you'll find plenty of examples.

 

If only things were that easy in real life.

No offense... And I'm sorry if this is NOT what you're implying, but I feel like what you are implying is kind of ridiculous. I don't see someone being contracted to produce a creative work and one of the elements of the contract being "Do everything we tell you to do with your creative work!" How on earth is some blanket clause like that going to hold up in court if he breaches it? How are they going to establish what it was they told him to do? And the fact that he didn't do it? Unless they negotiated every single aspect with him in painstaking detail?

 

I am NOT saying that they can't TAKE Kishi's work from him and I never would say that. Because you're right that this has happened many times with other works. But this is not something that I find AT ALL likely in this case because the fact is they needed Kishi's name to be on it. I am not a lawyer... And even if I was, it wouldn't be worth much unless I was a contract lawyer (Though I do know someone who is... He doesn't do the kind of contracts Kishi would be under though)

 

But for what LITTLE it's worth that sounds quite silly/implausible to me. And I hope I've made it clear that I'm not saying this from a place of naivete.

 

They could fire him (again if his contract actually permits this) but I do not think it would have been seen as financially smart for them to do so. They could make things uncomfortable for him. And I do think they did this. His editors, though. Not nefarious businessmen.


Edited by DrK, 27 February 2020 - 11:54 PM.


#51557 Phantom_999

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 01:51 AM

Could someone photoshop Thanos wiping off half of the Naruto Universe?

 
Why not make it all gone? There's nothing worth salvaging there anymore. :zaru: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Edited by Phantom_999, 28 February 2020 - 03:35 PM.

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#51558 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 04:32 AM

 
Why not make it all gone? There nothing worth salvaging there anymore. :zaru: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, good point.... How about we go back in time and wipe out Sasuke, Hinata and everything after the Pein arc where NaruSaku lives on.


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#51559 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 03:29 PM

Yeah, good point.... How about we go back in time and wipe out Sasuke, Hinata and everything after the Pein arc where NaruSaku lives on.


You have the time stone and the other stones to do that. Heck even swap hinata chest with Sakura chest so Sakura gets the big boobs.

#51560 Phantom_999

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, good point.... How about we go back in time and wipe out Sasuke, Hinata and everything after the Pein arc where NaruSaku lives on.

 

that would require erasing Obito and Madara from the story too.  Oh well. :th_yeah:


Edited by Phantom_999, 28 February 2020 - 03:37 PM.

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