110 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Japanese language have explicit verb tenses, or is all contextual? I've heard some people say the latter, and it would make sense considering how easy lines like that have been mistranslated. Though if that's the case, I'm curious as to how the anime screwed that line up too, unless the problem was just bias subbers.

Sorry if that's a stupid question to Japanese speakers here, I'm just an ignorant Westerner.

Not a stupid question at all. It does have tenses, but it's not as rigidly laid out like it is in English. You get conversations just like Sai's and Naruto's in real Japanese. The tense of a person's point of view is laid at at the start, then the rest is often context- they use a verbal form a lot that doesn't often translate clearly into English- one that suggests conjecture or uncertainty- this is common to use in sentences after the opening sentence tense is clearly laid out. And yes, you can have one person using a past tense and the other a present tense in the same conversation. It does make translating Japanese more difficult, and really easy to make a mistake. You have to look at what tense is said at the opening by the speaker and make the rest of the conversation follow that tense.

Nihongo wa muzukashii desu.

It was this issue that caused problems between American and Japanese business people in the 1970's and 80's- Japanese people also shift into that "uncertain" tense whenever they are with someone who is very certain of their opinions and comes across as either aggressive or confrontational.

Edited by ciardha, 20 May 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[Super Boom]

Not a stupid question at all. It does have tenses, but it's not as rigidly laid out like it is in English. You get conversations just like Sai's and Naruto's in real Japanese. The tense of a person's point of view is laid at at the start, then the rest is often context- they use a verbal form a lot that doesn't often translate clearly into English- one that suggests conjecture or uncertainty- this is common to use in sentences after the opening sentence tense is clearly laid out. And yes, you can have one person using a past tense and the other a present tense in the same conversation. It does make translating Japanese more difficult, and really easy to make a mistake. You have to look at what tense is said at the opening by the speaker and make the rest of the conversation follow that tense.

Nihongo wa muzukashii desu.

It was this issue that caused problems between American and Japanese business people in the 1970's and 80's- Japanese people also shift into that "uncertain" tense whenever they are with someone who is very certain of their opinions and comes across as either aggressive or confrontational.

Wow, very enlightening, thank you. Nihongo wa muzukashii desu indeed. (A little Japanglish there).

That's a very interesting linguistic style. It seems to put more emphasis on mutual conversation in my opinion. For someone like me who only speaks Western languages (English, Spanish, and a little Italian) a lax tense structure seems really confusing.

So basically the manga states, "She thought she's lessen your burden by giving up on Sasuke and confessing her love to you." (Mangastream translation, not sure how accurate it is). It seems to be in past tense, but referring to to the present tense. I'm also a little confused as to the 'beginning' of the conversation. The talk of Sakura's feelings begins with that statement, but I feel like the actual conversation begins a couple pages earlier with "When Sakura confessed to you earlier, I will now tell you what she could not." Which is sort of a mixed past tense/present tense statement.
It's also interesting to note that, throughout that talk, it is never stated that Sakura is lying, merely not telling the truth. And of course, there is a big gray area in between truth and lie, especially considering how there is another big factor at play (killing Sasuke).

[Strangelove]

Oh wow...do i remember this interview ^^ and how crazy we all acted, only to find out the next day that most of it have been compromised or mistranslated, to the benefits of NH and SS fans in NF.

[Phantom_999]

I would like to think Sai meant Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have diminished but are still lingering and is trying to put it behind her because her Love for Naruto is much more and her actions were more for his sake than anyone else because she thinks she does not deserves Naruto's love for not understanding how huge a burden she placed on his shoulders or how much it would hurt him, However What Sai said shows he still has some ignorance on Naruto's nature because he doesn't know that Naruto accepts the pain because the Hatred he bore from the village was far worse and He did it out of love for Sakura caring more for her happiness than his own life

Edited by Phantom_999, 21 May 2011 - 12:51 PM.

[Yoshimoya]

I love you guys... such beasts... translating japanese, analyzing interviews, conversation tenses, and whatnot! Shoot. Brings tears to my eyes... haha NARUSAKU forevah! Thanks for clearing this up, now I can legitly tell my friends that Kishi really meant for Sakura to be 100% truthful in her confession!

[Manara]

I would like to think Sai meant Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have diminished but are still lingering and is trying to put it behind her because her Love for Naruto is much more and her actions were more for his sake than anyone else because she thinks she does not deserves Naruto's love for not understanding how huge a burden she placed on his shoulders or how much it would hurt him, However What Sai said shows he still has some ignorance on Naruto's nature because he doesn't know that Naruto accepts the pain because the Hatred he bore from the village was far worse and He did it out of love for Sakura caring more for her happiness than his own life

Oh my God!!! He realy said that???? are you sure about that??? I'm going cry!!!
I love you Sai!!! (but don´t love your shirt)

But wait. If he said it all for Naruto, this leads us to another discussion. Why Naruto not talk anything with Sakura?

[Phantom_999]

OH no that was just my assumption he didn't actually say those things but to be honest even though Sai meant well and it did lead to major NS improvements I say it was non of his business because he had little to no knowledge of the promise Naruto made and well he doesn't have much experience with people still

Edited by Phantom_999, 22 May 2011 - 03:36 PM.

[Manara]

oh I misunderstood ^^

[rastaman]

OH no that was just my assumption he didn't actually say those things but to be honest even though Sai meant well and it did lead to major NS improvements I say it was non of his business because he had little to no knowledge of the promise Naruto made and well he doesn't have much experience with people still

I wouldn't say that 'it was non of his business'. Of course, he doesn't have very much experience in emotional, interpersonal issues, but he has developed pretty well in my opinion. Whatsmore, he WAS right in claiming that Naruto loves Sakura or telling Sakura, that she's made Naruto suffer. If Madara hadn't told Naruto, Kakashi and Yamato the truth about Sasuke and the Uchiha, then Naruto would probably not have responded to Sakura by telling her it wasn't about the promise he made to her.
If Madara had not told Naruto anything, then Naruto would be confused about why Sasuke's rage has not stopped after he killed Itachi.
Besides, Sai doesn't need to have much 'knowledge of the promise' because he just noticed there was some serious tension between Naruto and Sakura and there can only be a thorough solution if they talk about their concerns. The most important thing Sai said was that everybody, including Sakura, rely too much on Naruto, which is a fact, obviously.

Edited by rastaman, 24 May 2011 - 09:43 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah fair enough but even If they rely too much on Naruto it's because they haven't developed enough themselves yet And what I meant was that Sai worded and interpreted everything wrong in a sense. He was right saying it but how he said it was like everything was forced on Naruto and that he had no say in the matter but what he doesn't understand is that Naruto accepted those burdens BECAUSE he knows that pain and it's not that they rely too much on him because they WANT him to solve everything its because they just can't keep up with or match his growth. Did any of them stand a chance against Pain? No. So when Sai said that everyone relies on Naruto too much and that His promise brings him pain, in my opinion it seems like Sai is belittling him because he, of all people understood Naruto's circumstances the least, So I'd like to tell him" Dude you Think THAT is pain to to him? He has suffered his entire life from rejection, neglect, hatred, loneliness, so this is only a walk in a garden compared to his childhood and IF you found a way to save or bring back YOUR brother from the root back wouldn't you want to take that chance no matter how pain is causes you? I would like to see how he responds to that, and yeah he already met his brother on the battlefield but this was after he made that speech and again I still ask wouldn't he want to see is brother still even if he now knows he doesn't need his brother to keep protecting him and if it costs him his own happiness? I'm sure he would because you can't deny the comfort of bonds even if you have moved on you would still want that with you the rest of your life. One last thing When did I complain that Madara shouldn't have told Naruto the Truth? I did not. I know Very well it is important to the story I actually Enjoyed Madara explaining Sasuke's hatred to Naruto because that proved him wrong about saying that Sasuke meant more as a brother to him than to Itachi, Sasuke meant just as much to Itachi and maybe even more, And Like you said It gives Naruto insight on Sasuke's rage and hatred even after getting his revenge showed that Kakashi was right about how revenge never truly satisfies you Though Sasuke doesn't seem to hear it right now

Edited by Phantom_999, 25 May 2011 - 10:32 AM.

[Gravenimage]

Anyone read chapter 540 spoiler???

[Manara]

No, do not want to read! It has something to do with this discussion??

[rastaman]

One last thing When did I complain that Madara shouldn't have told Naruto the Truth? I did not.

Now that I think about it, Sai did say it kinda bluntly.
As for the part with Madara, I just thought you were criticising Sai for what followed after his talk with Sakura. I admit he was kind blunt about it and he's partly responsible for that unnecessary conflict, just as Naruto said, that was not the right place for such a discussion^^. Sai does admit it himself in the manga.
I just mentioned Madara because the conflict in Sakura's confession could have had a less tragic and irritating atmosphere, if Naruto didn't know the truth about Sasuke and the Uchiha.
Then Sai's mastake wouldn't have been so obvious.

[CloudMountainJuror]

No, do not want to read! It has something to do with this discussion??

Yes... It does... Sadly...

[rastaman]

Yes... It does... Sadly...

Ah, dude come on now I got a really bad feeling about this. How serious is it on a scale from 0-10?

[RedDelicious]

Yes... It does... Sadly...

At face value, it looks somewhat bad.
But consider that:
- it is only two images of the ladies thinking, so they haven't done anything
- don't have the translation to put the images in context

We should also wait to see if this pays out over the next few chapters.
There have been plenty of moments in the past that looked bad at the time, but turned out to be a tempest in a teapot.
This could be a classic Kishimoto moment, where we find out there was more going on than just those mental images.

[Phantom_999]

No, do not want to read! It has something to do with this discussion??

Yeah don't read it You might be emotionally scarred a while

[Mary]

Anyone read chapter 540 spoiler???

Lol, you fell for that Red herring too? Come one dude! Kishi has been a NaruSaku fan since the start, are you really gonna ship the other team now just because of one little picture?

Honestly, the guy wished for her best, and she thought about the person (Sasuke) who could ruin her chances at having that best (Naruto). You do remember Naruto wants to die with Sasuke, right?

[Gravenimage]

Lol, you fell for that Red herring too? Come one dude! Kishi has been a NaruSaku fan since the start, are you really gonna ship the other team now just because of one little picture?

Honestly, the guy wished for her best, and she thought about the person (Sasuke) who could ruin her chances at having that best (Naruto). You do remember Naruto wants to die with Sasuke, right?

Nope I will never jump ships I'm a NS fan until the end I was just suggesting about the chapter how many people are gonna missinterpret thst particular panel like they have done in the past.

[Mary]

Nope I will never jump ships I'm a NS fan until the end I was just suggesting about the chapter how many people are gonna missinterpret thst particular panel like they have done in the past.

God you're telling me. I can just hear the SasuSaku fans screaming victory over that ONE bloody panel. It's gonna be a nightmare.