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#27601 Nostradamus

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:03 AM

Naruto and Sasuke's relationship has a TON of Jokes behind it.

SAUSAGE!!!!!

Narutoooooooo

 

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Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.

#27602 RulesofNature

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:35 AM

Naruto and Sasuke's relationship has a TON of Jokes behind it.

SAUSAGE!!!!!

 

RESPECT THE RESTRAINING ORDER NARUTO! I STILL HAVE NIGHTMARES FROM WHAT YOU DID TO ME WITH THE ROPES. NO MEANS NO, I DON'T LIKE BONDAGE. I AM NOT YOUR SUBMISSIVE VICTIM. I AM A STRONG, INDEPENDENT PERSON. I WILL NOT BOW TO WHAT YOU WANT FOR ME, I WILL LIVE MY OWN LIFE!

 

...seriously, why does it feel like Sasuke is in an emotionally abusive relationship with Naruto?


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#27603 Phantom_999

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:51 AM

"SEME" AND "UKE" ROUTINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :th_yeah:  :zaru:  :lmao: Gotta loves some Yaoi fan service!!!!! :banana:

 

I think most of the pro-Enders forget just how ridiculed Naruto was as a series. It was the butt of so many jokes, the go-to example of how to do X wrong in anime. It wasn't just the ending of the pairings that people take issues with, it's a lot of story decisions and questionable character motivations.


Naruto's writing never really had meaning to it when you think about it. It was just written in to sound "cool". All style no substance so to speak. Other Shonen series did that too but you don't see them PRETENDING TO BE what they are not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and some things in others series was well thought of in actuality, Naruto is the only series that I see that derails it self so badly that even it's core concept was chucked out the window


Edited by Phantom_999, 21 February 2019 - 03:58 AM.

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#27604 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 03:46 AM

Saw it on an anti-end Facebook group and...ugh...fan-made and yet saying it's how it "actually happened" as if it were ghost written by Kishi or something.

Its honestly not that hard to write on Kishimoto's level or use a similar style.

 

I think most of the pro-Enders forget just how ridiculed Naruto was as a series. It was the butt of so many jokes, the go-to example of how to do X wrong in anime. It wasn't just the ending of the pairings that people take issues with, it's a lot of story decisions and questionable character motivations.

They thought it was crap too and only stayed on because they were desperate to see Hinata win. When she did, suddenly Naruto was a literary classic on the level of Shakespeares' works.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 21 February 2019 - 03:59 AM.


#27605 Phantom_999

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 04:02 AM

Yup.

 

Hinata wins? "The best story every. A master piece written by the gods!!!!!!!!"

 

NH did not happen? "BLASPHEMY!!!!!! HERESY!!!!!! Burn it til nothing is left!!!!"

 

:yes:


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#27606 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 08:57 PM

I think most of the pro-Enders forget just how ridiculed Naruto was as a series. It was the butt of so many jokes, the go-to example of how to do X wrong in anime. It wasn't just the ending of the pairings that people take issues with, it's a lot of story decisions and questionable character motivations.

And the "Bad Writing" series on YouTube and other similar series' pretty much fit "Naruto" perfectly due to it being a checklist of tropes and such.

 

"SEME" AND "UKE" ROUTINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :th_yeah:  :zaru:  :lmao: Gotta loves some Yaoi fan service!!!!! :banana:

 


Naruto's writing never really had meaning to it when you think about it. It was just written in to sound "cool". All style no substance so to speak. Other Shonen series did that too but you don't see them PRETENDING TO BE what they are not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and some things in others series was well thought of in actuality, Naruto is the only series that I see that derails it self so badly that even it's core concept was chucked out the window

Yep, a lot of Shonen anime embrace their over-the-top ridiculousness, but Naruto is one of the only ones that really sticks out in that it tries to pretend it's "deep" with "philosophical words" and whatnot. That's not to say some deepness and philosophy can't fit in, but constantly derailing or even outright contradicting the story, established facts, etc. to do so is obviously not the right way to do it.

Like, look at Mobile Fighter G Gundam (yes, I like it. Fight me...pun intended). Definitely a balls-to-the-wall, over-the-top series (you can tell they really wanted to let loose after the doom and gloom of a lot of the Universal Century, especially Victory Gundam) that is shonen to its core and yet its characters are still likable and they develop, there's an environmental message revolving around the Gundam Fight through Master Asia's motivations and the Ultimate / "Devil" Gundam's purpose. It's not the most subtle or anything, but it still works within the story and is a nice twist that really throws off Domon's vengeance boner (unlike anything with Sasuke) and actually gets him to see more around him and ultimately helps him to achieve his Hyper Mode as opposed to the Super Mode that relied on his rage, but still failed to be truly effective in the long run.


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#27607 RulesofNature

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 10:19 PM

Don't worry, most Gundam fans I know love G Gundam. It's only the diehard, "grrr. Gundam is a serious sci-fi military drama" blokes that crap on it. And those guys tend to be in the minority, often being shouted down for missing so much. Or completely butthurt after IBO's ending didn't give them what they wanted.

 

Wing is still garbage though.


Edited by RulesofNature, 21 February 2019 - 10:20 PM.

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#27608 VanitasDS76491

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Posted Yesterday, 01:32 AM

Yep, I'm not all that surprised if this, were all about Sakura everyone would agree she is an evil person, but since this is the all mighty Naruto can do nothing wrong, god they all need to wake up and see Naruto for who he is a scumbag that uses people, to make himself feel better.


Truer words have never been said cause that's how they'd say about Sakura though most of Sakura so called evil deeds are part 1 cause that where the most hate with her is from.

#27609 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted Yesterday, 09:11 AM

Don't worry, most Gundam fans I know love G Gundam. It's only the diehard, "grrr. Gundam is a serious sci-fi military drama" blokes that crap on it. And those guys tend to be in the minority, often being shouted down for missing so much. Or completely butthurt after IBO's ending didn't give them what they wanted.

 

Wing is still garbage though.

Yeah, most of the AU Gundam series' from the 90s and 2000s (Wing, SEED, SEED Destiny, 00 season 2 + movie) were pretty low in Gundam for me (I did like Turn A Gundam though). That age of "pretty", but otherwise pretty bland, shallow, and/or uninteresting characters (who, even if they're shown to get hurt, never are left with any scars unless they make them look "cooler"; Wing and SEED having a couple of the most infamous moments), more super robot-leaning with battles ("Gundam" >>>>>>>>>>>> everything; which all die with a single bullet anywhere to the mobile suit unless it's piloted by another main / named character, to which it can then magically tank virtually anything like a Gundam until it's merely disabled and allowing the pilot to escape unharmed, or plot demands otherwise), a lot of the same type of plots from the Universal Century, and so on...


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#27610 James S Cassidy

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Posted Yesterday, 04:31 PM

 

RESPECT THE RESTRAINING ORDER NARUTO! I STILL HAVE NIGHTMARES FROM WHAT YOU DID TO ME WITH THE ROPES. NO MEANS NO, I DON'T LIKE BONDAGE. I AM NOT YOUR SUBMISSIVE VICTIM. I AM A STRONG, INDEPENDENT PERSON. I WILL NOT BOW TO WHAT YOU WANT FOR ME, I WILL LIVE MY OWN LIFE!

 

...seriously, why does it feel like Sasuke is in an emotionally abusive relationship with Naruto?

Are you kidding? Sasuke has had the worst life out of all of them. No matter how many times he says no, they cannot take a hint.


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#27611 tricksie

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Posted Yesterday, 05:47 PM

The resolution was later when Hiashi went begging to Neji. The reason its gets ignored is because its doesn’t matter to the central plot. It deserved a mention and quick explanation, because it was there and was a big deal for those characters. Do we even know who is the head anymore? A formal resolution did need happen, but then that is my recollection of Boruto in a nutshell. It just plain sucks when it comes to details. It left all sorts of gaps that made people look worse than intended. My personal favorite was the paperwork in the early going. Tell me what it is and maybe I can understand Naruto’s position, it doesn’t so I can’t. Saying “paperwork” just doesn’t cut it.

TBH, a true resolution of that situation could be its own story given how clans like that functioned and all the vested interests likely at play. That Hiashi or Hinata comes in and says no more seal is not likely just to be met with “okay” from the the rest of the main branch. I once had a fanfic idea based on that, but then that never got off the ground.

But then, I think thats what the sequel should have been. The what comes next (i.e. the early years of Naruto’s life as Hokage). Like the clan, being ninja was a way of life and the livelihood of many. That would required more effort and risk that I think Shonen Jump wanted to put into it.

P.S. Isn’t her name Hanabi?

I vaguely remember that, with Hiashi going to Neji. Yeah, and Hanabi was her name.... If there were only a device on which I could look it up. Like a search engine or something....  :lol: Thanks though. So much crap I've forgotten about the Hyuugas. And it indicates how loose they were with that whole clan storyline. 

 

There was nothing in the manga...if their was some resolution it was in the anime. As far as I went into Boruto. Hisashi is still clan head, but mainly he just the overly affectionate grandpa. The Hyuuga story-line was dropped in Boruto and replaced with they have super eyes and loving families.

Nope. It just went away.

Hinatatas blew hot air about it against Neji (only after "N-N-Naruto-kun" "cheered" for her) and then Hiashi was the one who went to Neji after his loss to Naruto, explained the truth of what happened with Hizashi, and begged for Neji's forgiveness. After the Chunin Exam and the invasion though, the Hyuga became irrelevant (despite Hiashi boasting about it being "the strongest") and, as we know, only forced into looking so important again with Kaguya and crap because of Hinatatas being handed her D.

But come "Boruto", there is never any mention about it. The most we got of the Hyuga was Hanabi training Boruto and co. (and in just that little time, she proves herself SO much better than Hinatatas in every way; an actual, likeable personality, looks so much better, and has kept up and improved her combat skills with the Jyuken) and, as mentioned, Hiashi just being a pampering grandfather, but at this point, I doubt they're ever going to actually address it.

Even if something was done about it, it was most likely Hiashi and Hanabi's efforts and NOTHING to do with Hinatatas. Hinatatas got her D and that's all that mattered. She even married OUT of the clan to Boruto's dad and thus she would now have NO say on what goes inside now that she's an "outsider" (and yet the "goddess" couldn't be allowed to be "tainted" and so she is allowed to leave the clan WITHOUT any seal, much less the Caged Bird Seal, to protect the Byakugan), thus dropping the burden of next Clan Head onto Hanabi. And Boruto's dad, as Hokage, would not be able force the issue without risking the Hyuga's revolting for interfering in their personal clan matters.

Right, the warping of these characters to suit 'Hinata marries Naruto' storyline is just ugh. Haishi turns into old softie, Hinata gets out of the clan with no problem and no bird seal (same for her kids) and yet the rest of them still have it? Except now maybe they don't. Ugh. I haven't even watched the Boruto stuff, cause it's all just such a mess from the start. No surprise the the Hyuuga clan stuff is totally underwhelming. And you know, it wouldn't be so bad, so glaringly obvious that they've dropped the ball in Boruto, if they hadn't been so specific about the Hyuugas and their backwards ways in the manga. Nobody's complaining that Ino's clan doesn't live up to their reputation, or that there are discrepancies in how Choji's family hands down power, or that Shikamaru's clan kneecaps everyone else in the family except the first born. It's only the Hyuugas, because two characters' storylines revolved around that. And now they just drop it.

 

Maybe it kind of shows how little they expected old Naruto fans to crossover to Boruto? Maybe they felt more comfortable dropping those old plots because none of the original fans would be sticking around anyway?



#27612 tricksie

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Posted Yesterday, 06:07 PM

I think this misses the point of the Hyuuga Clan stuff. I wish I could remember who said it, so I could credit them for the idea, but I cannot. But as a writer, when Kishimoto wanted to make a new point or raise a new idea, hed create a new character. There are multiple reasons Narutos cast ended up being so bloated, but this was a big one.

In my opinion, the Clan drama was somewhat ancillary to the concepts Hinata was used for. She was closer to Lee than to Neji in terms of ideas she represented. She could have been from a family and still done that. Her being a Hyuuga mattered for more to Nejis character than her own. For Neji, it was the whole thing because Nejis big concept was Fate/Destiny. For obvious reasons, Neji was a complete fatalist, which was a concept/belief Naruto would loathe. Aside from this obvious clash, Naruto also possessed something Neji did not have: freedom. The Hyuuga Clan really just exists for this. Their eye, the Byakugan, didnt matter in terms of story telling device. Presenting the concept and Naruto overcoming/responding to it was the purpose of their fight.

This story was about Naruto and Sasukes conflict. Fate had nothing to do with Sasuke or their conflict (at least until that they become heros of destiny). Spending a lot of time dealing it doesnt do anything for this and doing so in detail (and doing it well) would not be short. It would only really matter if the romantic subplot became an integral part of the plot (at least on the level the fandom gave to it). If it was and Hinata was intended to be pushed, then yeah it becomes more necessary because its tied to her. If you wanted a well developed romantic subplot with that aspect of characters heavily developed and in a way that impacts the core plot, then yeah, you do that because youve made it apart of who she was. However, the romantic subplot didnt matter that much and really didnt matter to the core conflict. And no, I dont think this justifies doing absolute nothing meaningful about about her individual relationship with Naruto, but it is a legitimate reason not to spend a ton of time with her clan stuff.

That said, he went Naruto/Hinata and the whole Neji/Hiashi thing really doesnt resolve the whole clan thing that was apart of the story. It repaired their invidual relationship and implicitly gives Neji the freedom he didnt have. But it seemed that the resolution was purely personal with those two characters when Nejis issue with the clan went beyond that. Moreover, the fate of the clan was something heavily talked about throughout the fandom. So, I think a nice blurb about who leads it and its current state needed to be included to finish this up and round it out. But a detailed one? No, I think that fan fiction is the appropriate realm for that given the story Kishimoto chose to tell.

After the second arc the story was the NaruSasu bromance oddessey. The fact that they were ninja was secondary. If the priority of those were reverse and Naruto path to recognitation and to the position of Hokage were the primary story (and NaruSasu the secondary), then its inclusions becomes much more feasible, especially if the story is kept more local and not turned into a world war.

The clan backstory is interesting, and played a part of Hinata's original story early in the manga. As well as Neji's. This was their only conflict, their only challenge to overcome. It wasn't outside the clan. For Hinata, it wasn't even her crush on Naruto, as it's been so heavily ret-conned to pretend like that mattered in her life. It didn't.

 

Here's the test: take away Naruto from Hinata's early life, (him yelling encouragement at her in the fight) she would have still been fighting. She was out there of her own volition fighting Neji. And Naruto has zero impact on Neji's life then either. However, take away the clan backstory (branch family suppression/bird seal) Hinata and Neji cease to have a purpose in the manga. Overcoming a backwards system that punished everyone but the top one was what their fight was about. Naruto was supporting her, because he is the underdog in his own story. So that's a nice tie-in, and foreshadowing to something else, something bigger, about breaking a bigger backwards system like Naruto is fated to do.

 

Except it doesn't really happen like that. Sure, Neji and Hinata now worship Naruto. But the outcome of their battle is very subtle, almost forgotten (by me, at least, lol). We get no images of happy little Hyuugas living a better life because of Hinata and Neji's fight, and the subsequent education of Papa Hyuuga. But for Naruto, the parallel doesn't happen. The resolution of the Hyuuga problem does not play a part in Naruto's resolution of his story. Not by directly becoming a problem (like Naruto let Neji live, now he's a villain) or by him learning a new skill set by watching their fight and overcoming of problems, that then helps him defeat his 'big problem' in the end.

 

So from Naruto's storyline, we could remove the Hyuuga backstory from the beginning, including the Neji and Hinata fight, and really have no meaningful change to the end. In fact, the only one that might be impacted would be Neji, because he's the one who got an attitude readjustment after the fight. Hinata's character arc would be completely unchanged (if you removed the clan history and big battle with Neji). Despite battling her clans norms completely on her own, she shows no real gain from the fight. She remains the same. She was motivated by her crush in the beginning, and she was motivated by her crush in the end. That's it. 

 

Yes, in the second half of the story, it's completely clear that the plot is off the rails. And in Boruto, they are only interested in the original plot insomuch as it serves the characters they want to put forward. Nothing else. Therefore, all that Hyuuga backstory, in the end, was pointless. 

 

edit: oops, double post. 



#27613 dl316bh

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Posted Yesterday, 09:03 PM

Don't worry, most Gundam fans I know love G Gundam. It's only the diehard, "grrr. Gundam is a serious sci-fi military drama" blokes that crap on it. And those guys tend to be in the minority, often being shouted down for missing so much. Or completely butthurt after IBO's ending didn't give them what they wanted.

 

Wing is still garbage though.

 

I have fond memories of G, but it's one I've made a point to leave to memories. I watched some scenes on Youtube and they came across as silly. Plus, the animations pretty bleh. Which shoudln't bother me as much, because I like the original Mobile Suit Gundam, but there's something about it. The designs, maybe? I don't know. It sucks, because I still love the silly ass premise and it has the right amount of crazy nonsense I usually love.

 

Wing has aged so horribly, though, and was probably NEVER good if we're being honest. Style over substance. Operation Meteor is the rock stupidest plan I think I've ever seen in fiction. Wu-Fei is a top tier moron. I did love the Gundam designs, though - especially the Endless Waltz variants - and some of the other characters worked. The original show is pretty bad but I feel like you could probably make something really compelling out of it if you did a full remake of the series and cut out some of the unnecessary crap (Wing is about the same size as most long form Gundam anime, yet it feels like it has twice the chaff it could cut out of any other).

 

Anyway, I love the core Universal Century to bits, but I've also been a little leery of it these days; the series has been trying a little too hard to pull a "see it from the other side" in some of the UC entries and that makes me uncomfortable, honestly.


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#27614 RulesofNature

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Posted Today, 12:16 AM

I'm a UC guy myself, though I do love G/00/X (can tolerate AGE) and have some appreciation/Stockholm syndrome for IBO. That said, I really have reservations with what they've been doing lately. Like the Thunderbolt Manga is awesome, but the anime sacrifices the already thin story for action scenes. But my real problems go like this.

 

1) The cluttering of the OYW. Like they keep adding all these events and mobile suits to this period, almost afraid to move away from that. It doesn't really work the best for me, as it doesn't fit with original canon. Like the clothing styles and available tech is always based not on what they wore in the original series, but rather the time period in which it is made. Amuro works on newer computers and doesn't wear bell bottoms, and Origin just feels like straight up character-pandering fanfic.

 

Tomino himself has expressed his feelings on the matter. He wants Gundam to try new things, not rehash his works over and over. By recreating the tragedies of the UC in other timelines, it misses the mark (yeah, he's not the biggest fan of the 2000's era of Gundam). The point was the hope mankind could mature and not repeat the same mistakes.

 

2) The stuff they have made to expand the universe outside of the OYW... Unicorn in particular. Unicorn was alright, but it paled in comparison to Char's Counterattack imo. But the problem I really have is there's this deliberate attempt to specify how Newtypes works by Fukui in Uni and Narrative. They're taking away the mystery of the miracles, and the real kicker is that Newtypes don't matter. Even in Tomino's works, his later entries downplay their importance by focusing more on people communicating normally rather than sudden perfect understanding. And even in Zeta, there were times when that perfect understanding only served to make people hate each other more (Kamille and Haman, for instance). It misses the point of Newtypes to SEED-levels, and worse is that this is serving as the basis for the expansion.

 

I'm probably going to pick up Narrative if I see it at Walmart though, just to see. They did have Mazinger Z Infinity after all, so I have hope it will be stocked.

 

I'm pretty picking and choosing what I want to be canon at this point. To me, canon is the shows by Tomino, the 90's OVAs and G-Reco. Turn A is it's own timeline. Other than that, it's all alternate UC like the Zeta movies.


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