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Avatar the last airbender controversial story/pairing disscussion


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#1 rikakim94

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 03:26 PM

Recently I got back into atla again but while i was checking tumblr  i noticed many fans that did not like the canon ships and brykes writing are now claiming that the head of the original series wanted a 4th and a 5th season of avatar. When it was originality stated by the creators that there were only 3 seasons planned. And regarding pairings the head writer wanted zutara to happen instead and kataang was never planned out even if the original creators said kataang was planned and was the dna of the show.

 

  This claim comes from deviant art comment section.

http://knknknk.devia...972867#comments

 

A friend of mine worked briefly in the legal department at Nickelodeon and I have talked to some of the Avatar staff. The head writer Aaron Ehasz said there was to be a continuation because the series were based on Miyamoto Musashi's 'Book of Five Rings'. The ideas he had differed greatly from what Bryke eventually chose to do without his influence (He sated that Aang would find hidden airbenders, Iroh's journeys to the Spirit World would be explored, Zuko and Katara would eventually get together, Toph would receive character development concerning her relationship to her parents, etc.). The 3+ season idea fell through after Bryke made a deal with Paramount *early* on in Book 3 to have it be the final season (Paramount and Nickelodeon are both owned by Viacom). You'll notice through careful observation that Konietzko and DiMartino have only said they "planned three seasons" after the third season was near finished, and never before that. They are wishy-washy with everything they say, from Mako and Korra being "made for each other" in some interviews to "we knew we were going to have them break up" after they announced Korra/Asami was canon. The reasoning for cancelling all future seasons of ATLA was to work with a live action trilogy by Shyamalan, where each season of the animated series would correspond with one of the three films. Film trilogies in comparison to tetralogies and etc., are the standard and much more marketable. The success of Avatar did have Nickelodeon calling Bryke back to do another series. One of the ideas Bryke had was to focus on stories of Aang and Katara's children but this was considered too "similar" to the original series by Nickelodeon which would violate their contract with Paramount. They were, however, allowed to create a comic series about the adventures of Team Avatar after the war. As for the next animated series, they started working on a story featuring a new Avatar - thus Korra was born. I'll do my best to answer any further questions you have, or redirect you to people who know more about it than I.

 

Agree to disagree. Bryke were given a huge amount of freedom compared to other animated series. Most of LoK's failures were the result of Bryke's own poor writing. Nick messed up on LoK with terrible time slots and budget cuts but only because of the low ratings the series received. ATLA had a team of writers headed by Aaron Ehasz, while LoK was left almost entirely up to Bryke. In fact the best rated season of Korra (Book 3) had the least amount of input by Bryke.  I can tell you without a doubt that ATLA would not be half the show it turned out to be if Bryke wrote most of it. Information from the I.P. Bible by Bryke reveals that Iroh was supposed to be evil all along and the only major female character on the show was Katara (Suki, Mai and Ty Lee didn't exist. Toph and Azula were guys). The series would have probably turned out to be a dismal failure without Ehasz and the enthusiastic writing team. Ehasz is a brilliant writer and humble enough to admit to his mistakes, unlike Bryke who seem to be arrogant jerks about everything and even made a comic blaming their fans for not liking LoK.

Hmm...I don't care for the romance much. None of the relationships in either ATLA or LoK were well-written with maybe the exception of Sokka/Suki but it lacked depth on Suki's end because she was undeveloped. Bryke often claim to have planned the Kataang romance from the start but that is simply untrue. Going back to the I.P. Bible will show you that it was supposed to remain a crush throughout the entire series because they thought kids would be turned off by it and needed more action. This is why the actual show has their relationship so one-sided with Katara's feelings for Aang remaining ambiguous/uninterested throughout (a remnant of the original concept). Joshua Hamilton has admitted that the writing team had ideas of Zuko and Katara becoming a couple since the first season, and they continued to play around with this idea all the way into the third season. So Zuko was originally supposed to be Katara's love interest but they were never allowed to actually go through with it because Bryke disapproved. Bryke hated that people preferred Zutara over Kataang and so they decided that they had to push for more Kataang (even if it did turn out to be incredibly forced). There was actually a couple of debates in the writing room over who Katara should end up with. They were still undecided even after the scrapping of the fourth season to make way for the movies. When Shyamalan questioned Bryke about who Katara was going to end up with, Bryke told him that they didn't know. Nickelodeon executives conducted some surveys and eventually stepped in to convince the writers to make Katara/Aang happen because Katara/Zuko would upset young children according to their marketing research lol.

 

Well, Mako/Korra was heavily telegraphed throughout Legend of Korra while Korra/Asami had barely any development...and the latter still happened. It's a little ridiculous because there is so much Makorra praise by Bryke in their audio commentaries, plenty of Makorra defense in their interviews, a romantic music theme composed just for them, and Makorra semi-official art by the Korean animators. It's pretty obvious Bryke broke up Makorra and had Korrasami happen due to fan reaction, but they claim it was not pandering in any form - apparently, Mako was just a false romantic lead and they had planned Korrasami before they even wrote the series but they never bothered actually doing it out of fear that Nick would poison their water supply or something (sure thing, Bryke...). There were supposed to be more than three seasons for ATLA so I wouldn't be that surprised if Zuko/Katara happened eventually. Katara could be re-written into a false lead for Aang...she was conceptualized as the target of Aang's one-sided crush for starters, and her actually becoming a couple with Aang wasn't something Bryke thought about until mid-way through Book 1 (probably as a reaction to the other writers playing with idea of Zuko/Katara). 'The Fortuneteller' episode hints at Katara/Aang but right after that in 'Bato of the Water Tribe', they hint at Zuko/Katara. This was produced long before a Zutara fanbase had even developed so it can't be discounted as just throwing a bone towards the shippers.

Many of the writers were actually shocked when the Avatar Book 3 finale had Katara/Aang happen because the only Kataang moment they had before that was Katara rejecting Aang because she was "confused". Katara's romantic feelings towards Jet were obvious but her feelings towards Aang are always so ambiguous. The Kataang development flip-flopped a lot between "forced mess" and "cute fluff" so I think the writers were unsure a lot of the time with how they felt about the ship. When Bryke wrote Kataang moments, a lot of it was very rushed or cringe-worthy (like Makorra was) and the other writers had to tone it down into something less obnoxious. The comics give Bryke much more control over the story so you can see how annoying the Kataang ship can be with their "sweetie" pet names and Katara serving no role outside of being Aang's arm-candy.  Ehasz said that he would avoid love triangle drama and criticized LoK for playing it up so much. He emphasized the need for slow and subtle development in relationships, which is the complete opposite of LoK's blatant 'tell-not-show' formula. So I really don't think ATLA would have turned out like LoK in that regard. 

According to one person who talked to Ehasz (their livejournal is purged now but it matches up exactly with the Book 4 information other people give): 
"Aaron said the rock jabbing into Aang's back was silly and wouldn't have had Aang get into a relationship with Katara at the end of Avatar. Instead he wanted Aang to go through the the repercussions of using energybending. As a consequence for choosing not to take Ozai's life - a darkness would start to bloom within Aang, stemming from the guilt of taking away the his bending; which broke the former Fire Lord's will to live. Energybending is a dangerous art and has the power to corrupt the user. Aang needed to go on a journey to rediscover himself, this leads him to split up from the rest of Team Avatar and head towards the Air Temples again. There he learns about powerful airbending techniques and makes important discoveries about the history of his people. During Aang's disappearance, Zuko and Katara would grow closer. Aang loves Katara but not in the way he should, as it was based on replacing the absence of the Air Nomads, and Pathik believes he never learned what it meant to "let go" of her. Aang and Katara are not on the same wavelength as there are many times where Katara attempts to shelter him from the harsh realities of life - which creates a chasm between them. Katara discovers she can communicate so much more easily with Zuko, and he with her. Aang finds out that some of his people were alive all along and just hiding; living their lives for the past hundred years without him. His love for Katara grew from the love of the Air Nomads, so what if his people came back? Would he realize that his love for her was not as genuine as he once thought? Ehasz really wanted to use these developments to have Aang challenge himself and test whether he truly would be willing to sacrifice his own happiness for the stability of the world like a good Avatar should. The dark and light within Aang alluded to him carrying the spirit of the planet within him, which was becoming unbalanced due to the stress he was suffering from energybending. Bryke later took this dark-light concept and used them to form Raava and Vaatu for Legend of Korra. Except in Korra, the Avatar carried only the spirit of light and not both though the spirit of the planet."

Yikes! This is a Great Wall of Ba Sing Se amount of text.

 

Its not just that but this claim comes from many people who worked for nick at the time and they post these claims on tumblr plus they also prefer zutara.


Edited by rikakim94, 11 September 2016 - 04:24 PM.


#2 soraandven

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 10:35 PM

Recently I got back into atla again but while i was checking tumblr  i noticed many fans that did not like the canon ships and brykes writing are now claiming that the head of the original series wanted a 4th and a 5th season of avatar. When it was originality stated by the creators that there were only 3 seasons planned. And regarding pairings the head writer wanted zutara to happen instead and kataang was never planned out even if the original creators said kataang was planned and was the dna of the show.

 

  This claim comes from deviant art comment section.

http://knknknk.devia...972867#comments

 

A friend of mine worked briefly in the legal department at Nickelodeon and I have talked to some of the Avatar staff. The head writer Aaron Ehasz said there was to be a continuation because the series were based on Miyamoto Musashi's 'Book of Five Rings'. The ideas he had differed greatly from what Bryke eventually chose to do without his influence (He sated that Aang would find hidden airbenders, Iroh's journeys to the Spirit World would be explored, Zuko and Katara would eventually get together, Toph would receive character development concerning her relationship to her parents, etc.). The 3+ season idea fell through after Bryke made a deal with Paramount *early* on in Book 3 to have it be the final season (Paramount and Nickelodeon are both owned by Viacom). You'll notice through careful observation that Konietzko and DiMartino have only said they "planned three seasons" after the third season was near finished, and never before that. They are wishy-washy with everything they say, from Mako and Korra being "made for each other" in some interviews to "we knew we were going to have them break up" after they announced Korra/Asami was canon. The reasoning for cancelling all future seasons of ATLA was to work with a live action trilogy by Shyamalan, where each season of the animated series would correspond with one of the three films. Film trilogies in comparison to tetralogies and etc., are the standard and much more marketable. The success of Avatar did have Nickelodeon calling Bryke back to do another series. One of the ideas Bryke had was to focus on stories of Aang and Katara's children but this was considered too "similar" to the original series by Nickelodeon which would violate their contract with Paramount. They were, however, allowed to create a comic series about the adventures of Team Avatar after the war. As for the next animated series, they started working on a story featuring a new Avatar - thus Korra was born. I'll do my best to answer any further questions you have, or redirect you to people who know more about it than I.

 

Agree to disagree. Bryke were given a huge amount of freedom compared to other animated series. Most of LoK's failures were the result of Bryke's own poor writing. Nick messed up on LoK with terrible time slots and budget cuts but only because of the low ratings the series received. ATLA had a team of writers headed by Aaron Ehasz, while LoK was left almost entirely up to Bryke. In fact the best rated season of Korra (Book 3) had the least amount of input by Bryke.  I can tell you without a doubt that ATLA would not be half the show it turned out to be if Bryke wrote most of it. Information from the I.P. Bible by Bryke reveals that Iroh was supposed to be evil all along and the only major female character on the show was Katara (Suki, Mai and Ty Lee didn't exist. Toph and Azula were guys). The series would have probably turned out to be a dismal failure without Ehasz and the enthusiastic writing team. Ehasz is a brilliant writer and humble enough to admit to his mistakes, unlike Bryke who seem to be arrogant jerks about everything and even made a comic blaming their fans for not liking LoK.

Hmm...I don't care for the romance much. None of the relationships in either ATLA or LoK were well-written with maybe the exception of Sokka/Suki but it lacked depth on Suki's end because she was undeveloped. Bryke often claim to have planned the Kataang romance from the start but that is simply untrue. Going back to the I.P. Bible will show you that it was supposed to remain a crush throughout the entire series because they thought kids would be turned off by it and needed more action. This is why the actual show has their relationship so one-sided with Katara's feelings for Aang remaining ambiguous/uninterested throughout (a remnant of the original concept). Joshua Hamilton has admitted that the writing team had ideas of Zuko and Katara becoming a couple since the first season, and they continued to play around with this idea all the way into the third season. So Zuko was originally supposed to be Katara's love interest but they were never allowed to actually go through with it because Bryke disapproved. Bryke hated that people preferred Zutara over Kataang and so they decided that they had to push for more Kataang (even if it did turn out to be incredibly forced). There was actually a couple of debates in the writing room over who Katara should end up with. They were still undecided even after the scrapping of the fourth season to make way for the movies. When Shyamalan questioned Bryke about who Katara was going to end up with, Bryke told him that they didn't know. Nickelodeon executives conducted some surveys and eventually stepped in to convince the writers to make Katara/Aang happen because Katara/Zuko would upset young children according to their marketing research lol.

 

Well, Mako/Korra was heavily telegraphed throughout Legend of Korra while Korra/Asami had barely any development...and the latter still happened. It's a little ridiculous because there is so much Makorra praise by Bryke in their audio commentaries, plenty of Makorra defense in their interviews, a romantic music theme composed just for them, and Makorra semi-official art by the Korean animators. It's pretty obvious Bryke broke up Makorra and had Korrasami happen due to fan reaction, but they claim it was not pandering in any form - apparently, Mako was just a false romantic lead and they had planned Korrasami before they even wrote the series but they never bothered actually doing it out of fear that Nick would poison their water supply or something (sure thing, Bryke...). There were supposed to be more than three seasons for ATLA so I wouldn't be that surprised if Zuko/Katara happened eventually. Katara could be re-written into a false lead for Aang...she was conceptualized as the target of Aang's one-sided crush for starters, and her actually becoming a couple with Aang wasn't something Bryke thought about until mid-way through Book 1 (probably as a reaction to the other writers playing with idea of Zuko/Katara). 'The Fortuneteller' episode hints at Katara/Aang but right after that in 'Bato of the Water Tribe', they hint at Zuko/Katara. This was produced long before a Zutara fanbase had even developed so it can't be discounted as just throwing a bone towards the shippers.

Many of the writers were actually shocked when the Avatar Book 3 finale had Katara/Aang happen because the only Kataang moment they had before that was Katara rejecting Aang because she was "confused". Katara's romantic feelings towards Jet were obvious but her feelings towards Aang are always so ambiguous. The Kataang development flip-flopped a lot between "forced mess" and "cute fluff" so I think the writers were unsure a lot of the time with how they felt about the ship. When Bryke wrote Kataang moments, a lot of it was very rushed or cringe-worthy (like Makorra was) and the other writers had to tone it down into something less obnoxious. The comics give Bryke much more control over the story so you can see how annoying the Kataang ship can be with their "sweetie" pet names and Katara serving no role outside of being Aang's arm-candy.  Ehasz said that he would avoid love triangle drama and criticized LoK for playing it up so much. He emphasized the need for slow and subtle development in relationships, which is the complete opposite of LoK's blatant 'tell-not-show' formula. So I really don't think ATLA would have turned out like LoK in that regard. 

According to one person who talked to Ehasz (their livejournal is purged now but it matches up exactly with the Book 4 information other people give): 
"Aaron said the rock jabbing into Aang's back was silly and wouldn't have had Aang get into a relationship with Katara at the end of Avatar. Instead he wanted Aang to go through the the repercussions of using energybending. As a consequence for choosing not to take Ozai's life - a darkness would start to bloom within Aang, stemming from the guilt of taking away the his bending; which broke the former Fire Lord's will to live. Energybending is a dangerous art and has the power to corrupt the user. Aang needed to go on a journey to rediscover himself, this leads him to split up from the rest of Team Avatar and head towards the Air Temples again. There he learns about powerful airbending techniques and makes important discoveries about the history of his people. During Aang's disappearance, Zuko and Katara would grow closer. Aang loves Katara but not in the way he should, as it was based on replacing the absence of the Air Nomads, and Pathik believes he never learned what it meant to "let go" of her. Aang and Katara are not on the same wavelength as there are many times where Katara attempts to shelter him from the harsh realities of life - which creates a chasm between them. Katara discovers she can communicate so much more easily with Zuko, and he with her. Aang finds out that some of his people were alive all along and just hiding; living their lives for the past hundred years without him. His love for Katara grew from the love of the Air Nomads, so what if his people came back? Would he realize that his love for her was not as genuine as he once thought? Ehasz really wanted to use these developments to have Aang challenge himself and test whether he truly would be willing to sacrifice his own happiness for the stability of the world like a good Avatar should. The dark and light within Aang alluded to him carrying the spirit of the planet within him, which was becoming unbalanced due to the stress he was suffering from energybending. Bryke later took this dark-light concept and used them to form Raava and Vaatu for Legend of Korra. Except in Korra, the Avatar carried only the spirit of light and not both though the spirit of the planet."

Yikes! This is a Great Wall of Ba Sing Se amount of text.

 

Its not just that but this claim comes from many people who worked for nick at the time and they post these claims on tumblr plus they also prefer zutara.

all that doesn't matter cuz kataang won anyway


tumblr_inline_o0t4b3AHI71txjvtf_500.gif


#3 Yojeveka

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 10:38 PM

I don't really think Kataang was forced since they had actual development. And about Katara and Jet... That was more like a crush for me, 'cause he was the "cool guy".


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#4 soraandven

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 11:05 PM

besides zuko and katara only had one big real conversation and that was in book 2's finale


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#5 rikakim94

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 01:11 AM

I don't really think Kataang was forced since they had actual development. And about Katara and Jet... That was more like a crush for me, 'cause he was the "cool guy".

Yeah kataang did had development it wasent that forced. And yeah jetara is just a pretty boy/bad boy crush. 

 

all that doesn't matter cuz kataang won anyway

 

Thats true but its starting to feel like an hollow victory kinda like the naruto ending. It makes me sad that the creators only choosed kataang because they hated zutaras popularity and wanted to be right about everything They only cared about being right and i don't think they actually like and respect kataang.   :ermm:  But at least it had development unlike makorra. 

 

besides zuko and katara only had one big real conversation and that was in book 2's finale

 

They also had a lot of alone time together in the near end of season 3 and im starting to believe in these claims since i think its odd that zuko and katara started to get a lot of moments in the end of season 3. Even its just friendship it did had strong moments that could have made zutara canon if the writers had more control. 


Edited by rikakim94, 12 September 2016 - 01:12 AM.


#6 Yojeveka

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 01:17 AM

Zuko got closer to the whole Gaang in the 3rd season, though. It would be unfair to claim it was just Katara and him. But since she used to hate him for his betrayal and he was trying to make amends, I guess the fandom went nuts with the love triangle.


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#7 rikakim94

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 02:15 AM

Zuko got closer to the whole Gaang in the 3rd season, though. It would be unfair to claim it was just Katara and him. But since she used to hate him for his betrayal and he was trying to make amends, I guess the fandom went nuts with the love triangle.

 

Thats true but during the finale and few episodes before zutara had friendship moments and sometimes its a bit strong especially during the few episodes of the finale were zuko saves katara from the lighting and the moment were katara crys strongly for zuko this is something that she would do regarding aang. The claims are starting to add up. :unsure:



#8 Phantom_999

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 02:29 AM

WOW, deja vu I tell you. fans hate on canon pairing and want nice girl to go with dangerous, dark, brooding, bad boy. Except here the creators and writers WEREN'T stupid enough to go through with it :zaru:


Edited by Phantom_999, 13 September 2016 - 12:49 PM.

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#9 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 03:19 AM

The thing is that they still set up the possibility of Aang and Katara getting together. If they actually were going to go through with Zuko and Katara. They would need another season at least. Since for two season they barely interacted with each other and their first heart to heart ended with Zuko siding with his sister. Leading to her absolutely hating him for most of the third season. So if they only had three season they had to go with AK, if they had a fourth season to focus on ZK then they could go with it.

 

Though that Aang realizes he never had feeling for Katara and he was just using her as a replacement for the air nomads. That sounds a lot like the last "Naruto only loved Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke."

 

As for Mako and Korra of course they were suppose to get together. The problem is that they handle the relationship so poorly in season two (the same season they had Studio Pierrot do some episodes). That they could never put them to together again. Granted most of those romances in that cartoon were awful and over focused in detriment to the story. How many times had Bolin tried to get a girlfriend? This lead them to having team Korra up with Asami, while the brothers Bolin and Mako were teamed up in season 3. So they wouldn't have to focus on any of the romance. Then they saw how well they worked together and made them the end pairing. That is it. And if they saying anything else. It is them trying to bask in the praise of them having one of the first lesbian couples in a cartoon.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 September 2016 - 04:02 AM.


#10 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 03:24 AM

Wait they made a comic to whine about people not liking LOK?



#11 soraandven

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 04:47 AM

 

Thats true but during the finale and few episodes before zutara had friendship moments and sometimes its a bit strong especially during the few episodes of the finale were zuko saves katara from the lighting and the moment were katara crys strongly for zuko this is something that she would do regarding aang. The claims are starting to add up. :unsure:

 

The thing is that they still set up the possibility of Aang and Katara getting together. If they actually were going to go through with Zuko and Katara. They would need another season at least. Since for two season they barely interacted with each other and their first heart to heart ended with Zuko siding with his sister. Leading to her absolutely hating him for most of the third season. So if they only had three season they had to go with AK, if they had a fourth season to focus on ZK then they could go with it.

 

Though that Aang realizes he never had feeling for Katara and he was just using her as a replacement for the air nomads. That sounds a lot like the last "Naruto only loved Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke."

 

As for Mako and Korra of course they were suppose to get together. The problem is that they handle the relationship so poorly in season two (the same season they had Studio Pierrot do some episodes). That they could never put them to together again. Granted most of those romances in that cartoon were awful and over focused in detriment to the story. How many times had Bolin tried to get a girlfriend? This lead them to having team Korra up with Asami, while the brothers Bolin and Mako were teamed up in season 3. So they wouldn't have to focus on any of the romance. Then they saw how well they worked together and made them the end pairing. That is it. And if they saying anything else. It is them trying to bask in the praise of them having one of the first lesbian couples in a cartoon.

please don't remind me of that awful story known as the last


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#12 LuckyChi7

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 04:53 AM

WOW, deja vu I tell you. fans hate on canon pairing and want nice girl to go with dangerous, dark, brooding, bad boy. Excet here the creators and writers WEREN'T stupid enough to go through with it :zaru:

 

I was just beginning to think the same thing actually. 


13b4e136608e88c6.jpg

 

 

PROTECTING EACH OTHER TILL THE END!!


#13 soraandven

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 04:57 AM

 

I was just beginning to think the same thing actually. 

yeah 


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#14 rikakim94

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 05:29 AM

The thing is that they still set up the possibility of Aang and Katara getting together. If they actually were going to go through with Zuko and Katara. They would need another season at least. Since for two season they barely interacted with each other and their first heart to heart ended with Zuko siding with his sister. Leading to her absolutely hating him for most of the third season. So if they only had three season they had to go with AK, if they had a fourth season to focus on ZK then they could go with it.

 

Though that Aang realizes he never had feeling for Katara and he was just using her as a replacement for the air nomads. That sounds a lot like the last "Naruto only loved Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke."

 

As for Mako and Korra of course they were suppose to get together. The problem is that they handle the relationship so poorly in season two (the same season they had Studio Pierrot do some episodes). That they could never put them to together again. Granted most of those romances in that cartoon were awful and over focused in detriment to the story. How many times had Bolin tried to get a girlfriend? This lead them to having team Korra up with Asami, while the brothers Bolin and Mako were teamed up in season 3. So they wouldn't have to focus on any of the romance. Then they saw how well they worked together and made them the end pairing. That is it. And if they saying anything else. It is them trying to bask in the praise of them having one of the first lesbian couples in a cartoon.

 

Yeah,That head writer might have better ideas than bryke but i disagree with his zutara idea and i don't like the way how he is trying to downplay kataang and make it into a shallow love.  :ermm: And aang had good reasons to love katara....

 

Also it is a double standard if zuko messes up several times and trys hard to redeem himself he is forgiven and gets with katara later on. But aang makes a huge mistake he gets questioned on wither or not getting with katara is a good thing. 


Edited by rikakim94, 12 September 2016 - 05:35 AM.


#15 harry4e

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 05:46 AM

Kataang wasn't planned? I'd love to see the pairing develop if what we got was the unplanned version.

 

Btw...too long didn't read the wall of text, and I don't know how much I'd trust a random comment on Deviantart out of all places, I'd expect it on Reddit atleast.


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#16 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 06:31 AM

 

Yeah,That head writer might have better ideas than bryke but i disagree with his zutara idea and i don't like the way how he is trying to downplay kataang and make it into a shallow love.  :ermm: And aang had good reasons to love katara....

 

Also it is a double standard if zuko messes up several times and tries hard to redeem himself he is forgiven and gets with katara later on. But aang makes a huge mistake he gets questioned on wither or not getting with katara is a good thing. 

Honestly, if that were to happen I think most people watch avatar would just go FU.CK THIS SH.IT!!! Because honestly that sound like a dismissive cop out instead of an actual reason why AK can't happen and why ZK should. There is a reason Naruto earned that nickname "The Worst Scumbag" in Japan after the last. It was when Sakura said Naruto only cared for her because of his rivalry with Sasuke. That line turned Naruto from a kind hearted idealist who empathizes with other peoples pain to a cold hearted unfeeling manipulator that does not believe what he been preaching for years.

 

Both actually sound like the writers hate their main character not getting the girl. They don't want their guys just realizing that the girl may be happier with someone else, that the right thing to do is let go of their feeling, and let her find happiness. So instead they try to dismiss those feeling ever existed. The true goal of the Last was to make Hinata no longer the consolation prize for Naruto not getting Sakura. While this zen trip Aang seem to go on was to make him dismiss he ever had true feeling for katara instead of just letting her find happiness with zuko.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 September 2016 - 09:46 AM.


#17 soraandven

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 06:55 AM

Kataang wasn't planned? I'd love to see the pairing develop if what we got was the unplanned version.

 

Btw...too long didn't read the wall of text, and I don't know how much I'd trust a random comment on Deviantart out of all places, I'd expect it on Reddit atleast.

yeah i don't trust that post


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#18 luffyq1

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 12:21 PM

zutara was actually never planned. in fact, the creators made fun of the pair. there's quotes an even a video of zutara being seen in a negative light from the creators. 

 

this claim that zutara was suppose to happen has been debunked years ago.


Edited by luffyq1, 12 September 2016 - 01:28 PM.

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#19 tricksie

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 01:28 PM

Cool post - lots to think about. Love the hypothetical situation at the end too — sounds exactly like something that you would expect to happen after Aang tangled with Ozai but let him live (didn't do his Avatar duty because he's too much of a softy airbender, lol).

 

So when I watched the show originally, I wasn't aware of all the shipping stuff. I thought it should end up Kataang because it was presented that way. Only towards the end, in season 3, did I get the sense that maybe something was going on with Zutara. And then by the end, I was acutally disappointed with the Kataang ending.

 

The two arcs went like this:

 

Kataang: One-sided crush; the flirty fire-nation dance; Aang declaring his love and Katara pushing Aang back; then a kiss in the end.

 

Zutara: Competition, leading to recognizing each other as equals; the heart to heart, recognizing each other as having similar childhoods/unhealed wounds; then distance and distrust; then reuniting for Katara's secret mission and becoming closer than ever (even so much that she hugs him in the end); then Zuko chosing Katara in the last episode to fight with him, where Katara ends up stopping his sister and saving Zuko's life.

 

So — and again, I didn't start out or even end the series as Zutara — when you look back at the series, Kataang is really lacking a lot of mutual pairing development. (Like, you want Katara to be with Aang because he's the loveable lead...but has it ever been shown as what would be good for Katara?) But Zutara's mutual development — their character's fulfilling each other's needs — is all over the place.

 

If you make the argument that the real story is shown, not told, then how many images are there of Zuko and Katara being close together, in a bf/gf sort of way? Um, a lot. (Face to face, hugging, hand on back, hand on chest.) Zuko even says at the beach fire circle that he wishes Mai were more like someone else....someone more passionate, etc. Like Katara.

 

Anyway it's all there for Zutara supporters. It's not a mirage or fandom wishful thinking, like NH in Naruto. 

 

But my biggest takeaway from the series and the shipping related stuff is not whether it should be Zutara or Kataang in the end. It is that, for me, it always felt like the writers couldn't decide to have Aang paired up at all. I seemed like they ended with Kataang so that they didn't have to show what Aang was like as a grown up. How he would have developed on his own and what his story would have been like.

 

Ending with him winning Katara ties a nice tidy bow on the end of the series. Aang's the hero. He conquered his foe. He won the girl. 

 

It implies that the rest of his life might be hard, but this (the three seasons we saw) was the hardest part.

 

If it ended with Zuko and Katara, then the focus of the story shifts. The hero's identity becomes a little muddled. Because it becomes obvious that Zuko is the one who went through the emotional development. Zuko is the one who overcame his inner and outer demons in the end. And Zuko is the one who ends with Katara.

 

If they ended with Zutara, then it would automatically lead to audiences feeling like there was still more story to be told about Aang's life. So for me, even though I think Zutara is the more obvious and supported of the two pairings, I think that there was no way they could have done it within the three series.

 

If there were a fourth or fifth, like you posted, then yes I could see Zutara happening.

 

I don't doubt that there was a lot of discussion about what direction the pairings should go. It doesn't need to come from reddit to be believable - just look at the series! The writers and animators gave a lot of screen time to developing Zuko and Katara's relationship in the end. So if an implied relationship wasn't something they were going for, they wouldn't have put it in the show so blatantly. It wasn't just a little — so I would be willing to bet there were lots of discussions behind it.

 

Anyway, this is where I split from the rest of the ATLA fandom: I was never Kataang vs. Zutara. Instead I always thought the real crux of the problem for Bryke and the writers was whether to pair Aang up with anyone at all.

 

So I guess I was solo Aang vs. pairing Aang! lol! And then whatever happened to Zutara was just going to be a byproduct of that decision.

 

To put it in the context of Naruto, Sasuke's ending sidestepped this whole solo vs. pairing mess. Sasuke has it both ways.

 

He is both solo Sasuke and pairing Sasuke. He has gets Sakura pregnant (who then goes home to have his child and live in his old life as if he were really there) then Sasuke goes right back out to being the untethered wanderer. Not even knowing or caring about his child/wife for 12 years. Wait...are Sakura and Sasuke even married? Whatevs.  :bash:

 

(And again, Sasuke gets everything he wants, meanwhile Naruto gets none. That just shows you who that story was really about the whole time: Sasuke.)



#20 rikakim94

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 05:18 PM

Cool post - lots to think about. Love the hypothetical situation at the end too — sounds exactly like something that you would expect to happen after Aang tangled with Ozai but let him live (didn't do his Avatar duty because he's too much of a softy airbender, lol).

 

So when I watched the show originally, I wasn't aware of all the shipping stuff. I thought it should end up Kataang because it was presented that way. Only towards the end, in season 3, did I get the sense that maybe something was going on with Zutara. And then by the end, I was acutally disappointed with the Kataang ending.

 

The two arcs went like this:

 

Kataang: One-sided crush; the flirty fire-nation dance; Aang declaring his love and Katara pushing Aang back; then a kiss in the end.

 

Zutara: Competition, leading to recognizing each other as equals; the heart to heart, recognizing each other as having similar childhoods/unhealed wounds; then distance and distrust; then reuniting for Katara's secret mission and becoming closer than ever (even so much that she hugs him in the end); then Zuko chosing Katara in the last episode to fight with him, where Katara ends up stopping his sister and saving Zuko's life.

 

So — and again, I didn't start out or even end the series as Zutara — when you look back at the series, Kataang is really lacking a lot of mutual pairing development. (Like, you want Katara to be with Aang because he's the loveable lead...but has it ever been shown as what would be good for Katara?) But Zutara's mutual development — their character's fulfilling each other's needs — is all over the place.

 

If you make the argument that the real story is shown, not told, then how many images are there of Zuko and Katara being close together, in a bf/gf sort of way? Um, a lot. (Face to face, hugging, hand on back, hand on chest.) Zuko even says at the beach fire circle that he wishes Mai were more like someone else....someone more passionate, etc. Like Katara.

 

Anyway it's all there for Zutara supporters. It's not a mirage or fandom wishful thinking, like NH in Naruto. 

 

But my biggest takeaway from the series and the shipping related stuff is not whether it should be Zutara or Kataang in the end. It is that, for me, it always felt like the writers couldn't decide to have Aang paired up at all. I seemed like they ended with Kataang so that they didn't have to show what Aang was like as a grown up. How he would have developed on his own and what his story would have been like.

 

Ending with him winning Katara ties a nice tidy bow on the end of the series. Aang's the hero. He conquered his foe. He won the girl. 

 

It implies that the rest of his life might be hard, but this (the three seasons we saw) was the hardest part.

 

If it ended with Zuko and Katara, then the focus of the story shifts. The hero's identity becomes a little muddled. Because it becomes obvious that Zuko is the one who went through the emotional development. Zuko is the one who overcame his inner and outer demons in the end. And Zuko is the one who ends with Katara.

 

If they ended with Zutara, then it would automatically lead to audiences feeling like there was still more story to be told about Aang's life. So for me, even though I think Zutara is the more obvious and supported of the two pairings, I think that there was no way they could have done it within the three series.

 

If there were a fourth or fifth, like you posted, then yes I could see Zutara happening.

 

I don't doubt that there was a lot of discussion about what direction the pairings should go. It doesn't need to come from reddit to be believable - just look at the series! The writers and animators gave a lot of screen time to developing Zuko and Katara's relationship in the end. So if an implied relationship wasn't something they were going for, they wouldn't have put it in the show so blatantly. It wasn't just a little — so I would be willing to bet there were lots of discussions behind it.

 

Anyway, this is where I split from the rest of the ATLA fandom: I was never Kataang vs. Zutara. Instead I always thought the real crux of the problem for Bryke and the writers was whether to pair Aang up with anyone at all.

 

So I guess I was solo Aang vs. pairing Aang! lol! And then whatever happened to Zutara was just going to be a byproduct of that decision.

 

To put it in the context of Naruto, Sasuke's ending sidestepped this whole solo vs. pairing mess. Sasuke has it both ways.

 

He is both solo Sasuke and pairing Sasuke. He has gets Sakura pregnant (who then goes home to have his child and live in his old life as if he were really there) then Sasuke goes right back out to being the untethered wanderer. Not even knowing or caring about his child/wife for 12 years. Wait...are Sakura and Sasuke even married? Whatevs.  :bash:

 

(And again, Sasuke gets everything he wants, meanwhile Naruto gets none. That just shows you who that story was really about the whole time: Sasuke.)

 

Yeah looking back at kataang now i noticed that it is lacking from mutual development like having tension and helping each other out like emotionally and physically. Its true that zutara had more of that in the near end of season 3.

 

I think zuko was more well written because of the writers having more favoritism and bryke being incompetent writers and yeah aang wouldn't feel like a main character anymore but more of a secondary lead.  

 

In the end, I just wished bryke truly cared about pairings and maybe planned one pairing out in the beginning, But nope they never did that instead they had the writers plan a pairing out for them. Which is the writers preferred ship zutara and kataang only winning because bryke didn't want to be proven wrong about there ideas feels shallow to me. :down: They did the same think for lok and look how that turned out and they admitted that kataang was forced just so they could upplay korrasami.  :mellow:

 

Do you feel like kataang falls in the trope of strangled by the red string? I think kataang is somewhat well written but out of luck and not because of the creators. 


Edited by rikakim94, 12 September 2016 - 05:18 PM.





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