23 replies to this topic

[keelgun]

I don't know which one, but I was reading a fanfiction that actually portrayed the idea that Naruto could have won the battle, but would have killed Sasuke, which would break his promise about 'bringing him back'. The scratch would signify that he could have won if he really wanted to, but he probably didn't want to make Sakura upset and hate him. I really liked this idea, and it made me think if it should be considered a win or a loss for Naruto. Sure, he did 'actually' lose, but does anyone think he could have won, or not?

[Cloud]

It's an open opinion. During the scene, both of them could've killed each other. They both let their attacks power down and just injure each other.

[Kyuudaime]

I suppose he could have, my opinion was that the only way he could beat Sasuke was killing him, but that would have broken the promise.

[Illmatic]

I suppose he could have, my opinion was that the only way he could beat Sasuke was killing him, but that would have broken the promise.

that's what i feel as well

[FullmetalNinja25]

I suppose he could have, my opinion was that the only way he could beat Sasuke was killing him, but that would have broken the promise.

And he'll be faced with the same decision again soon when he and Sasuke fight again.

[Kyuudaime]

And he'll be faced with the same decision again soon when he and Sasuke fight again.

*Crosses fingers and hopes he kills Sasuke*

[Derock]

*Crosses fingers and hopes he kills Sasuke*

Unfortunately, it won't happen, storywise.

[light.keyblade.master]

Unfortunately, it won't happen, storywise.

oh it could happen. in fact that is a bigger possobility then actually bringing him back. If they used chidori elemental and rasen shuriken naruto would obliterate sasuke.

Edited by light.keyblade.master, 20 February 2009 - 03:52 PM.

[keelgun]

oh it could happen. in fact that is a bigger possobility then actually bringing him back. If they used chidori elemental and rasen shuriken naruto would obliterate sasuke.

I completely believe that, ever since the whole elemental thing was explained, its like they are planning for it. I dont want Sasuke to come back. Maybe after he killed, or half killed orochi, and even after he killed Itachi, but he now has no reason not to come back. He couldhave come back right after he killed itachi, but he sided with Akatsuki, the organization he knows is after Naruto. he cant make up for that, not in my book.

[Kyuudaime]

I completely believe that, ever since the whole elemental thing was explained, its like they are planning for it. I dont want Sasuke to come back. Maybe after he killed, or half killed orochi, and even after he killed Itachi, but he now has no reason not to come back. He couldhave come back right after he killed itachi, but he sided with Akatsuki, the organization he knows is after Naruto. he cant make up for that, not in my book.

I kind of feel this was pretty much.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I completely believe that, ever since the whole elemental thing was explained, its like they are planning for it. I dont want Sasuke to come back. Maybe after he killed, or half killed orochi, and even after he killed Itachi, but he now has no reason not to come back. He couldhave come back right after he killed itachi, but he sided with Akatsuki, the organization he knows is after Naruto. he cant make up for that, not in my book.

It's true. Sasuke is in that fine line where redemption for him seems impossible at the moment. I am curious too as to see what will occur.

And really, eityher side could have one. Naruto himself likely did minimal damage to keep his promise, while Sasuke said he only spared Naruto on a whim, more than likely to kill him later when he was stronger. My theory though. :-/

Bryon

[catsi563]

I believe this actually and posit it happend in my own Stories. Ill give my reasons why too.

First reason. Symbolism

We all know Kishimoto is big on Symbolism in battles. evey Battle means something its not jsut two people bashing fists and kunai into each other. Evry fight has a meaning even to the loser. Sandaime dies at orochimarus hands ((hence losing the fight)) yet he stops orochimarus ambitions ((hence winning the battle))

Naruto techincally draws with gaara since both are exhausted and unable to move exccept by crawling. (( a draw)) yet he wins the battle by getting through to Gaara that there is more to life then killing hence causing gaara to give up the fight ((hence winning the fight and battle))

Itachi dies of his own illness ((losing the fight to sasuke)) but preventing Sasuke from gaining his revenge ((hence winning the overall battle))

Also there is this little bit Rasengan is stornger then chidori

Now I know some may argue that hes jsut pulling Narutos leg to get him to come with him to search for Tsunade. But I dont belive this to be the case at this moment. He knows how much more powerful and versatile Rasnegan is.

finally their is the difference in power between the one tiled fox form and the cursed seal lvl 2. I peronally feel the one tialed is stronger, and we all know Naruto can go beyond 1 tail. even if we argue that the CS2 is equal to the KN1 we know he cna go past 1. hence while both were hurting yes and both were exhausted. Naruto we know had greater depths of power and better motviation then sasuke.

leading to the final reason motivation. The major ideal in naruto has allways been gaining the greatest strength from protecting that which is precious to you. Naruto in this instance is protecting both his "brother" and his love for Sakura by keeping his promise.

Sasuke is motivated by pure selfish revenge. and THis is the Key reason. if we say sasuke won then all that came before is bogus nad meaning less. I dont beleive it to be meaningless so heres what happened as I see it.

Sasuke and Naruto both feel the effects of there exhaustion and injuries as the fight draws to a close. they know this is it so they charge up their biggest attacks which are amplified by there forms. they leap at each other and clash.

it is that this instance that Naruto overpowers sasuke. weve allready established Rasnegan is more powerful, and Naruto has the better motviation. Yet at this moment Naruto has a chocie set before him and an instance to make this decision.

An inch higher and he scalps Sasuke, an inch lower he takes his face off maiming or killing him either way. its one thing to break his legs and drag him back but to permanently cripple or disfigure him or worse kill him all violate his ninja way and worse his promise to sakura.

So he takes the third option. he does the impossible. what Sasuke said he could never do and the thing that would never change.

he scratches Sasukes forhead protector. ((remember symbolism is key here)) doing the impossible and leaving himself open to Sasukes ((almsot certainly)) fatal last attack.

Sasuke at this last instance is so shocked by the attack, that he is stunned and shocked out of the rage that has consumed him. the dead last of the class, the lsoer, the dobe etc. has jsut doen the unthinkable, he could have killed him.

Sasuke sees what he is about to do and at the last instance closes off the chidori instead laying a final punch into Narutos allreayd injured ribs. the pain is too much and naruto falls unconscious. Sasuke stands there the winner of the fight, yet the loser of the battle.

he knows hes chosen a final path of damnation. as his forhead protector falls from his head and lands near naruto he sees the symbolic scratch that signifies both a missing nins status, and the impossible feat pulled off by naruto.

he knows he should have lost, that naruto should have killed him and he cant figure out why. ((he knows nothing of narutos promise to sakura, beyond the words maybe))

thats the primary reason why i believe Sasuke lost the battle even though Naruto gave up and let him win the fight. He could have taken him down all the way. but doing so would have broken what was most sacred to him at that time. his promsie to Sakura and his word as a ninja.

As we all know sasuke had to ""win"" otherwise wed have no story to follow. Yet the methodof winning is where the symbolism lies.

Saskue lost that battle and he knows it. As arrogant as he is later in shippuden, its got to eat away at his kraw to know that the dead last defeated him. and could have killed him but for some reason let him live.

maybe he chalks it up to weakness and sentimentality unbecoming a ""true shinobi"" hence justifying itachis hate me philosophy. who knows?

the symbolism remains though. Naruto won the battle by losing the fight.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I believe this actually and posit it happend in my own Stories. Ill give my reasons why too.

First reason. Symbolism

We all know Kishimoto is big on Symbolism in battles. evey Battle means something its not jsut two people bashing fists and kunai into each other. Evry fight has a meaning even to the loser. Sandaime dies at orochimarus hands ((hence losing the fight)) yet he stops orochimarus ambitions ((hence winning the battle))

Naruto techincally draws with gaara since both are exhausted and unable to move exccept by crawling. (( a draw)) yet he wins the battle by getting through to Gaara that there is more to life then killing hence causing gaara to give up the fight ((hence winning the fight and battle))

Itachi dies of his own illness ((losing the fight to sasuke)) but preventing Sasuke from gaining his revenge ((hence winning the overall battle))

Also there is this little bit Rasengan is stornger then chidori

Now I know some may argue that hes jsut pulling Narutos leg to get him to come with him to search for Tsunade. But I dont belive this to be the case at this moment. He knows how much more powerful and versatile Rasnegan is.

finally their is the difference in power between the one tiled fox form and the cursed seal lvl 2. I peronally feel the one tialed is stronger, and we all know Naruto can go beyond 1 tail. even if we argue that the CS2 is equal to the KN1 we know he cna go past 1. hence while both were hurting yes and both were exhausted. Naruto we know had greater depths of power and better motviation then sasuke.

leading to the final reason motivation. The major ideal in naruto has allways been gaining the greatest strength from protecting that which is precious to you. Naruto in this instance is protecting both his "brother" and his love for Sakura by keeping his promise.

Sasuke is motivated by pure selfish revenge. and THis is the Key reason. if we say sasuke won then all that came before is bogus nad meaning less. I dont beleive it to be meaningless so heres what happened as I see it.

Sasuke and Naruto both feel the effects of there exhaustion and injuries as the fight draws to a close. they know this is it so they charge up their biggest attacks which are amplified by there forms. they leap at each other and clash.

it is that this instance that Naruto overpowers sasuke. weve allready established Rasnegan is more powerful, and Naruto has the better motviation. Yet at this moment Naruto has a chocie set before him and an instance to make this decision.

An inch higher and he scalps Sasuke, an inch lower he takes his face off maiming or killing him either way. its one thing to break his legs and drag him back but to permanently cripple or disfigure him or worse kill him all violate his ninja way and worse his promise to sakura.

So he takes the third option. he does the impossible. what Sasuke said he could never do and the thing that would never change.

he scratches Sasukes forhead protector. ((remember symbolism is key here)) doing the impossible and leaving himself open to Sasukes ((almsot certainly)) fatal last attack.

Sasuke at this last instance is so shocked by the attack, that he is stunned and shocked out of the rage that has consumed him. the dead last of the class, the lsoer, the dobe etc. has jsut doen the unthinkable, he could have killed him.

Sasuke sees what he is about to do and at the last instance closes off the chidori instead laying a final punch into Narutos allreayd injured ribs. the pain is too much and naruto falls unconscious. Sasuke stands there the winner of the fight, yet the loser of the battle.

he knows hes chosen a final path of damnation. as his forhead protector falls from his head and lands near naruto he sees the symbolic scratch that signifies both a missing nins status, and the impossible feat pulled off by naruto.

he knows he should have lost, that naruto should have killed him and he cant figure out why. ((he knows nothing of narutos promise to sakura, beyond the words maybe))

thats the primary reason why i believe Sasuke lost the battle even though Naruto gave up and let him win the fight. He could have taken him down all the way. but doing so would have broken what was most sacred to him at that time. his promsie to Sakura and his word as a ninja.

As we all know sasuke had to ""win"" otherwise wed have no story to follow. Yet the methodof winning is where the symbolism lies.

Saskue lost that battle and he knows it. As arrogant as he is later in shippuden, its got to eat away at his kraw to know that the dead last defeated him. and could have killed him but for some reason let him live.

maybe he chalks it up to weakness and sentimentality unbecoming a ""true shinobi"" hence justifying itachis hate me philosophy. who knows?

the symbolism remains though. Naruto won the battle by losing the fight.

Nice way to look at it, Catsi. I do see whatcha mean though.

In many ways though, we've seen it doesn't help worth jack since Sasuke still tried to kill Naruto later on. It's one reason I think that he let Naruto live too. After all, even if it snapped him out of his rage, deep down, I think his desire to kill Naruto was still there, since I figure there was something even BIGGER than just Sasuke's burning desire for revenge that led him to go to Orochimaru. It was simple, utter jealousy at the "loser", someone Sasuke saw as a person who could never change, becoming stronger and doing things he thought only he could do.

That's how I've always seen it besides not wanting to foot blame for his own actions. Sasuke simply is jealous at Naruto at first, though I doubt he has any concern for him, even if he is unaware of what he can do in Sage Mode now, even WITH his having the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Bryon

[catsi563]

It is a strong possibility that jealousy did have something to do with the equation after all. remeber this wonderful narusaku scene that followed the previous mentioned chapter?

To save you that guy risked death

the enxt page shows Sasukes jealousy

and the next page Sasuke admits Im inferior

its a possibilty that he may have been running on rage and jealousy in that instance.

Also a couple people mentioned him joining akatsuki.

His joining that organization is a side effect of his failed revenge.

Kakashi warned him that revenge would only lead to emptiness.and thus it has. like all who seek revenge, he has been left bereft of purpose.

He failed to get his revenge and thus was left empty. Madara filled that hole by giving him a new target for his revenge hence keeping his motivtion alive and his reason for living.

[Sora no Kitsune]

It is a strong possibility that jealousy did have something to do with the equation after all. remeber this wonderful narusaku scene that followed the previous mentioned chapter?

To save you that guy risked death

the enxt page shows Sasukes jealousy

and the next page Sasuke admits Im inferior

its a possibilty that he may have been running on rage and jealousy in that instance.

Also a couple people mentioned him joining akatsuki.

His joining that organization is a side effect of his failed revenge.

Kakashi warned him that revenge would only lead to emptiness.and thus it has. like all who seek revenge, he has been left bereft of purpose.

He failed to get his revenge and thus was left empty. Madara filled that hole by giving him a new target for his revenge hence keeping his motivtion alive and his reason for living.

I totally agree, though i don't think jealousy had as much of an impact in Sasuke's leaving konoha and fight with Naruto. I think Naruto's power made him relize that his power was inferior to Naruto's and wanted a fast way to Increase his power to that great enough to take Itachi down. However, Sasuke had to be lazy about it and rather than gain that power through intense training like Naruto had, he took the easy way out and joined Orochimaru.

Then Sasuke fought Naruto, who started to lose from Naruto power with Kyuubi, then used 2nd stage curse form and got a lucky strike on Naruto. You can say he got a lucky win because he defeated Naruto with power he didn't earn through hard work. Sure Naruto didn't earn Kyuubi but he learned to control it overall and used it to his advantage. If u ask me, i say Naruto won.

Edited by zman170, 22 February 2009 - 03:26 AM.

[Cloud]

I totally agree, though i don't think jealousy had as much of an impact in Sasuke's leaving konoha and fight with Naruto. I think Naruto's power made him relize that his power was inferior to Naruto's and wanted a fast way to Increase his power to that great enough to take Itachi down. However, Sasuke had to be lazy about it and rather than gain that power through intense training like Naruto had, he took the easy way out and joined Orochimaru.

That's jealousy, my friend. Seeing Naruto's powers made him jealous and THAT's what made him feel inferior.

[Paptala]

I think Naruto could have won, but Sasuke had the advantage from the beginning, because unlike Naruto he wasn't holding back the entire fight to keep from killing.

I do believe that its still possible for Sasuke to be redeemed, if only because he had that flashback of Team 7 before casting Amateratsu (forgive me if I spelled this wrong). Maybe he won't go back to living in Konoha, but I think that maybe he'll just be a silent, unspoken ally for Naruto and Sakura when they need it - wandering from village to village much like Tsunade and Jiraiya did.

[RyrineaHaruno]

I completely believe that, ever since the whole elemental thing was explained, its like they are planning for it. I dont want Sasuke to come back. Maybe after he killed, or half killed orochi, and even after he killed Itachi, but he now has no reason not to come back. He couldhave come back right after he killed itachi, but he sided with Akatsuki, the organization he knows is after Naruto. he cant make up for that, not in my book.

Yes my thought exactly



to this post yes I believe that Naruto loosed the fight in order to bring back Sasuke alive.

[Sora no Kitsune]

In my opinion, Naurto won completely in power, friendship, maturity and overall epicness.

As catsi said, if Naruto was an inch higher or and inch lowwer, Sasuke would have died. However, He dicided against it due to his love for Sasuke as a brother and his promise to Sakura. Overall, Naruto had the power to win, but refused to kill his friend. Naruto won hands down and if it wasn't for his shortcuts to power with Orochimaru's "2nd stage inducing barrel", Sasuke would have been in Konoha and the Naruverse as we know it would not exisit.

I personally don't mind Naruto lossing because they are better off without his emotional avenger ass to insult them anyway. They have become stronge without him and if not for his steroids and shortcuts, Sasuke would have been dead by now. They are better off so it doesn't matter if Naruto won or lost because what came out of it was alot better than what would have happened if sasuke stayed.

[light.keyblade.master]

*Crosses fingers and hopes he kills Sasuke*

Agreed