168 replies to this topic

[Yojeveka]

This is irrelevant to my point moreso a comfort if evil wants to come back. See triksie's warning to Analyzer. She isn't perf but she was worse.

 

I thought it was relevant. We're talking about members leaving because this place is turning into a pointless arguing forum. But either way, I'm not asking her to be perfect, I'm just saying that if she's a pro NS, then she should show it instead of treating us like we were inmature. 

Edited by Yojeveka, 04 September 2017 - 06:50 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I know, right? Everytime I check a thread and see that she posted something, I don't even need to read in order to know that it's something like: "Nope, you're wrong". It worries me to see other members leaving/getting upset because of one troll that keeps posting those negative comments. 

 

NaruSaku is (sadly) already a minority, so it's really unfair to have a person like that in a place that is supposed to be a NS Sanctuary. 

 

Agreed, and it's hard when we are just a minority now thanks in part to the fact so many people just up and disappeared after the ending hurt them big time.

[Kagomaru]

That's why it's just best to put her on Ignore.  Like I said before, a person like that should not be given the power to impact someone's enjoyment here and giving them attention just empowers them to persist; I personally only semi-respond to her points out of bemusement, especially when she stumbles and contradicts herself. Also, I've noticed that a lot of previously defunct members have been returning in reaction to Miss Umbridge's obstinance and arrogance.  In a strange twist, she's unintentionally uniting NaruSaku fans on this site to educate her on the facts.

 

Besides, the mods already gave her a warning for her behavior and because she's trapped in this mindset that she never errs, she...really isn't taking heed to it since she's still acting condescending towards posters, which is why she got the warning in the first place.  So, she's likely to get herself banned sooner than later.  They already took care of one NaruHina fanboy that came here the other day and banned him within the hour. 

Edited by Kagomaru, 04 September 2017 - 07:29 AM.

[sushi.]

 
I thought it was relevant. We're talking about members leaving because this place is turning into a pointless arguing forum. But either way, I'm not asking her to be perfect, I'm just saying that if she's a pro NS, then she should show it instead of treating us like we were inmature. 

OK let me rephrase, even if Analyzer hasn't changed my point still stands - constantly pestering about that one friend that stopped writing fanfiction and isn't answering their messages is pointless and all of that can't even be analyzer's fault. I think even she apologized for the situation but this is all a while ago..

Edited by sushi., 04 September 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[The Doctor forever]

OK let me rephrase, even if Analyzer hasn't changed my point still stands - constantly pestering about that one friend that stopped writing fanfiction and isn't answering their messages is pointless and all of that can't even be analyzer's fault. I think even she apologized for the situation but this is all a while ago..

He has not stopped he has gone back to doing stories, its just been bad for him cause as a close friend to him since school he has been suffering depression thanks rheumatoid arthritis, which right now has caused him great pain in his kness feet hands and legs and he was going to come back on the site when he found one post that said that she (Analyzer is qualified writer) To him as someone who also suffer from anxiety as well didn't help.

[dragonflyx11]

I'm just going to address this part, as I will always say, people are welcome to feel how they feel. 
 
 
I've made Pro-NS points, but the subject rarely seems to circle this to really discuss that. It instead often comes up as half-praise, half-insult at something, the ending, the pairing, and the point they say is done bad is even refutable, so I naturally refute it. I've also made my criticisms of what was done. I.E., I do not believe the Team 7 bonds were well executed, and this includes SS, so saying they are "wonderfully done" really misses my point. I do though, think that NH was written well, though I stress written, and not, I ship. This is why I defend it, because I see it's foundation and execution, and can point out why, where others don't see it, for whatever reason that may be. There are flaws I can certainly name, mainly one that connects to the same criticism of  the many of Naruto's bonds with other characters, in that they are underutilized, while we have the overuse of Sasuke's bond with Naruto.
 
I like NS as a pair, I think they are really warm. I don't agree with all of the fanon perspectives on it, and we'll never know exactly on how they act as an actual couple, but I imagine the dynamic would be fun and humorous and warm and entertaining, and would have been a fine pick for the end if Kishimoto chose to do so. I don't though, support that it was Kishimoto's original pick but he betrayed it, I think that is really close to almost saying: "I was entitled to this happening because that's how it was supposed to be", and I don't support it is bad writing because he chose not to do so. I also do not think NS, like the other Team 7 bonds, had the greatest start in execution, but unlike the other Team 7 bonds, made leaps and bounds in improvement, particularly helped by them spending more time together. 
 
. 

Coming out of permanent lurkery to add my 2 cents. I respectfully disagree. I do believe that NS was his original intent, but at the same time i also think he never cared about the pair. Just as he never cared about NH or SS either. Only one bond mattered to him. Naruto and sasuke. No opinion here is any more right or wrong than the other. None of us are kishi, so none of us can say what his true intent was. Even if he himself says what his true intent was, cause authors lie from time to time.

Edited by dragonflyx11, 06 September 2017 - 06:22 AM.

[dragonflyx11]

 

Isn't that a problematic stance? We can't make a case on what his intent was, and we can't use the interviews to support or case because we are saying "Authors lie from time to time", yet his words are more or less consistent, and don't really support that anyway. 

You say he is consistent, but i say the many many holes in his story say otherwise. our opinions differ and ALWAYS will differ.

[dragonflyx11]

 

What many, many holes? 

Way to many to name. Retcons left and right. Changing of timelines to suit his needs. NTM one of the worst final enemies ever. Like i said in another thread. I know not to get in a debate with you. I don't mean to come off as harsh, I just don't see us being able to have a proper discussion on it. I accept that our opinions differ and leave it at that. I got over the ending a long time ago. I have accepted it for what it is. The manga was on on a downward spiral to me long before that, but it was special to me and i just couldn't simply let it go. I will always believe NS would of been the best choice. Kishimoto destroyed 2 once great characters ( along with so many other mistakes) , but that does not matter to me anymore. I have moved on from the canon Naruto universe a long long time ago. 

Edited by dragonflyx11, 07 September 2017 - 04:19 AM.

[dragonflyx11]

 How about a small list? 

 

I'm challenging your statement because I do not believe there are "Way too many to name", nor were there "Retcons left and right". You're free not to indulge, but if you are going to claim a position, better to make an example. 

 

Kaguya suffered from lack of foreshadowing, yes, though I will disagree that she's the worst, though this is a position we can respectfully have differing views on with no problem. 

 

And no character was "destroyed". No character became OOC at the end, objectively so. They're still the same characters. 

 I guess a better way to put it would be character regression. Destruction of growth. Sakura was in character for 12 yr old Sakura. Also i said ONE of the worst not the worst, but as you said we can agree to disagree on that. Sasuke's history was retconned. The LAST was a giant retcon and a band-aid on a gaping wound. I'm done with this topic though. I'm not gonna go through every little mistake, like i said i'm done with canon Naruto, it was a great start changed into one heaping pile of ass.

[tricksie]

 

What many, many holes? 

 How about a small list? 

 

...

 

3: How was Sasuke's history retconned?

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No small lists. No examples. No prolonged multi-post arguments.

 

This thread is for the discussion of "The momen narusaku died" only.

 

Analyzer, you are welcome to invite a member to the debate thread to continue a discussion. Or you may ask a member to continue discussion in a pm. But you are not allowed to fill up a thread with one-sided arguing, after the other member said they were finished.

 

You asked what hijacking a thread was? This is it. Maliciously or not, derailing a thread with offtopic arguments is strictly prohibited on this site. 

 

It is no one's job here to convince you of arguments or plot points in this series. It is no one's job to lay out evidence in the hopes that you'll accept it. That is not what this site is for.

 

Either give your opinion about 'the moment narusaku died' or do not post in this thread. You may only debate in the debate or discussion threads. Nowhere else. 

[BlackBird19]

In light of the above, and to respect the rules in place, I will actually take some time to directly discuss the subject at hand then, elaborating on my original post, while also blowing out some smokescreens and speaking on the truth of things.

 

NS did not "die", because in a romantic sense, the fandom still exists, this forum still exists, fan-fiction still exists, etc. The idea of a world with these two people getting together for fans did not die. The shipping of NS won't go away. That was born on chapter 3, and will always have a following. 

 

In regards to the manga, NS did not die, because in a narrative sense, it was never born. It was at most a consideration, by Kishimoto's own words. He made plans, but allowed for organic growth of the characters to change things, and as time went on, the idea of NS did not work for him, and so he did not give it life, and canonically, Naruto's crush faded. Nothing was stolen from us, we were never entitled NS. Swapping 700 with NS at the end wouldn't make the ending make more sense, but the inverse. It's not that it wasn't resolved, it very much was. Kishimoto added a specific scene in the Last to explain this further, but you don't need it, and it was there for those who didn't quite understand, to offer a more full sense of closure. In a sense, if we are talking about the possiblity of NS, then it died narratively in 469.

 

But for readers, this obviously varies between who you ask. For some it is 469, for others, 693, for yet others, 699, 700, 615, part one,  some as what the Last was about came to be revealed, or so many other points. I think for those in echo chambers, it followed the general consensus. For many that would be at 700, or the revelation of the leaked pictures, to be more specific. i myself, was not absolutely sure, until the end, doubt only empowering faith.

 

Despite the lack of NS, The end resolved the major points, tied the major points together, and was good closure. There might have been no NS, but I'm happy with what was delivered. 

 

The only issues I have with this post are:

 

A) I didn't see what you saw in terms of Naruto's character growing organically away from Sakura. However, I did see Sakura's character grow more caring in terms to Naruto.

 

B) We were never shown, let alone told anything about Naruto's feelings fading for Sakura. Not once was that brought up in the manga. That's more of an inference your making due to the knowledge of the end game pairings.

 

Now, as far as when the possibility of NS happening took a nose dive, I'd have to say it was definitely after 469. Not necessarily the chapter itself, but due to the backlash it received from a loud part of the fandom. Remember that was a chapter that Kishimoto actually had to discuss due to the overwhelming response it received from the fans. To be honest, that entire arc in the Land of Iron drew a lot reaction and criticism during and after it's release, and not just from pairing fans. Naruto's desperation to save Sasuke in terms of the beating he took, the begging of the Raikage and the hyperventilation scene really turned some readers off.

 

The loudest of those reactions though, were of how horrible Sakura was towards Naruto for trying to use his feelings against him. That negative response towards Sakura's character not only prompted Kishimoto to defend her but, I also feel led to the decision to scrap her as Naruto's love interest. Her character never fully recovered from that backlash. She basically became a character, even more so than before, that was well liked or highly disliked with very little middle ground. 

Edited by BlackBird19, 08 September 2017 - 10:21 AM.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

The only issues I have with this post are:

 

A) I didn't see what you saw in terms of Naruto's character growing organically away from Sakura. However, I did see Sakura's character grow more caring in terms to Naruto.

 

B) We were never shown, let alone told anything about Naruto's feelings fading for Sakura. Not once was that brought up in the manga. That's more of an inference your making due to the knowledge of the end game pairings.

 

Now, as far as when the possibility of NS happening took a nose dive, I'd have to say it was definitely after 469. Not necessarily the chapter itself, but due to the backlash it received from a loud part of the fandom. Remember that was a chapter that Kishimoto actually had to discuss due to the overwhelming response it received from the fans. To be honest, that entire arc in the Land of Iron drew a lot reaction and criticism during and after it's release, and not just from pairing fans. Naruto's desperation to save Sasuke in terms of the beating he took, the begging of the Raikage and the hyperventilation really turned some readers off.

 

The loudest of those reactions though, were of how horrible Sakura was towards Naruto for trying to use his feelings against him. That negative response towards Sakura's character not only prompted Kishimoto to defend her but, I also feel led to the decision to scrap her as Naruto's love interest. Her character never fully recovered from that backlash. She basically became a character, even more so than before, that was well liked or highly disliked with very little middle ground. 

Really interesting perspective, altough, I partially disagree, yes I do believe NS "began to die" around the time you mention, but I think Kishimoto didn't change his mind about Sakura at that point at least, since despite the huge backlash he tried to explain and defend her actions, if she was a "kiba level character" like he say he always consider she was like, there was literally no need for him to adress the issue.
It definetly was dead the moment Neji died, because, if Naruto didn't get together with Hinata his death was (tough thanks to the result we got for me still is) meaningless, everyone would've catch on that Neji died just to create a moment for NH even without Kishi saying that out loud. At least that probably got the Neji fans completely infurated and hating the pairng ( and who could blame them? If a character I really like IE: Rock Lee died just to create a "moment" beween a pairing being whatever it was, I would be pretty pissed off too). I know some people say that Neji dies understanding finally his father actions and sacriffice, but for me, that's nothing but bull, he died the exact same effing way(hence, history repeats itself and it will never change for good), and to makes matter worse Hinata didn't even apologized to anyone who was close to him for causing his death, not to Guy, not to Lee, not to Ten-Ten not to kittening anyone, her own flipping father is capable to kneel and apologize to his son for his brother sacriffice (if I remember correctly) but her, not a flipping I'm sorry, nope gotta strengthen her grip on that BIG MAINLY HAND AM I RIGHT?

Futhermore, I would like to say that Hinata sacrificing herself for Naruto isn't that much of a big deal, he was a bloody icon at that point (a very kitten one that endangered his team more for bringing the Kyubi there  but I digress), LITERALLY anyone else could've done that, same with the speech she gave letter, hell I wish it was Lee the one who did it since it would prove how at least his stronger in raw determination than our Sasuke obsessed protag and give him one final deserved win, AGAIN, wasted opportunity.

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 08 September 2017 - 12:31 AM.

[BlackBird19]

Really interesting perspective, altough, I partially disagree, yes I do believe NS "began to die" around the time you mention, but I think Kishimoto didn't change his mind about Sakura at that point at least, since despite the huge backlash he tried to explain and defend her actions, if she was a "kiba level character" like he say he always consider she was like, there was literally no need for him to adress the issue.
It definetly was dead the moment Neji died, because, if Naruto didn't get together with Hinata his death was (tough thanks to the result we got for me still is) meaningless, everyone would've catch on that Neji died just to create a moment for NH even without Kishi saying that out loud. At least that probably got the Neji fans completely infurated and hating the pairng ( and who could blame them? If a character I really like IE: Rock Lee died just to create a "moment" beween a pairing being whatever it was, I would be pretty pissed off too). I know some people say that Neji dies understanding finally his father actions and sacriffice, but for me, that's nothing but bull, he died the exact same effing way(hence, history repeats itself and it will never change for good), and to makes matter worse Hinata didn't even apologized to anyone who was close to him for causing his death, not to Guy, not to Lee, not to Ten-Ten not to kittening anyone, her own flipping father is capable to kneel and apologize to his son for his brother sacriffice (if I remember correctly) but her, not a flipping I'm sorry, nope gotta strengthen her grip on that BIG MAINLY HAND AM I RIGHT?

Futhermore, I would like to say that Hinata sacrificing herself for Naruto isn't that much of a big deal, he was a bloody icon at that point (a very kitten one that endangered his team more for bringing the Kyubi there  but I digress), LITERALLY anyone else could've done that, same with the speech she gave letter, hell I wish it was Lee the one who did it since it would prove how at least his stronger in raw determination than our Sasuke obsessed protag and give him one final deserved win, AGAIN, wasted opportunity.

 

I'm fairly sure the final decision was made sometime just before Neji's death, thus prompting him to be the sacrificial lamb. I was merely pointing out that the sheer amount of backlash on Sakura after 469 is what ultimately led to the final decision later on. I didn't mean that the decision was made immediately after 469 or the Land of Iron arc. The negativity her character received never really let up, thus allowing for the decision of going with Hinata to be made further down the line.

[T XD]

I think both of you, me and everyone know that what you talked will be answered with one or few paragraphs along the lines of :

NH doesn't have to do with the audience after 469 nor Neji's death. It was planned since the beginning, maybe mentioning Chuunin exam and something about Naruto and NS being a red herring. Neji's sacrifice wasn't for NH with maybe a sprinkle of Kishimoto's interview post-ending.

 

One of the usual cooked stew.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

That you have the gall to say that Hinata should apologize to Neji for causing his death is silly. Neji died willingly. She was going to die willingly for Naruto. She wept tears. She reminded Naruto of Neji's words. She named her son with him in mind. Your painting of her being heartless is just so twisted and seemingly just full of hate. She is being held to ridiculous expectations. Why aren't we doing the same to Naruto, who he also died for? Or for Gaara who was brought to life with a sacrifice? Then mocking her for taking comfort in someone's hand for a moment, before getting back to the action of war. It wouldn't even matter if Hinata apologized or did any of the things you put forward, you would -still- complain. 

 

Yes, others could have maybe done the same thing. That is a what if it would have the same impact and power. But Hinata was chosen. That means something. 

Just responding to this leaving all the rest out.
If you really think that me saying Hinata is a selfish little stupid girl even tough I've already rised several points on why I think she is like that I'm gonna said them again one last time:
-Hinata practically commited suicide and endangered herself and all the flipping village just to confess to her crush, even though everyone else was reasonable and undestanding enough to let him handle it (funny how then she remembers she had the byakugan then, but she has to be TOLD to use it in the war arc, huh?)
-Hinata doesn't give a flying f about her own children, the moment she saw Naruto was in danger she lefts them alone in order to go "help" him, even if she can't do anything about it, she also never confronts Naruto about his neglect of their family
-She literally got jealous over an effing piece of wool, A PIECE OF WOOL , which prompted the main character to discard his own mother memento just because she wanted to do so.
-She doesn't care about anything at all other than her crush, the fact that she doesn't try to honor his cousin memory and try uniting the Hyuuga clan just proves my whole flipping point.

First, I couldn't give less of a damn about what you think of me, (I really try to be at least "tolerable" to everyone but, obviously there are exceptions) but let me say something, if you really have the GALL to judge what kind of person I am, over my feelings towards a one dimensional character of a series that ONCE a veeeeery long time ago rivalized One Piece than now is nothing more than a stupid monthly manga not even written by the former author with terrible pacing and poorly drawn, Your judgement is as clouded as your so called "logic" and "analyze thinking".
 

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 08 September 2017 - 02:36 PM.

[Kagomaru]

Just responding to this leaving all the rest out.
If you really think that me saying Hinata is a selfish little stupid girl even tough I've already rised several points on why I think she is like that I'm gonna said them again one last time:
-Hinata practically commited suicide and endangered herself and all the flipping village just to confess to her crush, even though everyone else was reasonable and undestanding enough to let him handle it (funny how then she remembers she had the byakugan then, but she has to be TOLD to use it in the war arc, huh?)
-Hinata doesn't give a flying f about her own children, the moment she saw Naruto was in danger she lefts them alone in order to go "help" him, even if she can't do anything about it, she also never confronts Naruto about his neglect of their family
-She literally got jealous over an effing piece of wool, A PIECE OF WOOL , which prompted the main character to discard his own mother memento just because she wanted to do so.
-She doesn't care about anything at all other than her crush, the fact that she doesn't try to honor his cousin memory and try uniting the Hyuuga clan just proves my whole flipping point.

First, I couldn't give less of a damn about what you think of me, (I really try to be at least "tolerable" to everyone but, obviously there are exceptions) but let me say something, if you really have the GALL to judge what kind of person I am, over my feelings towards a one dimensional character of a series that ONCE a veeeeery long time ago rivalized One Piece than now is nothing more than a stupid monthly manga not even written by the former author with terrible pacing and poorly drawn, Your judgement is as clouded as your so called "logic" and "analyze thinking".
 

To corroborate this point, I bring this up again: She told her own 11-12 year old freaking son to protect his father.  Does that sound like a mother who cares for her children when she seems to prioritize the safety of her husband?

 

And it's not that Hinata NEEDS to apologize to Neji, it's the fact that she doesn't express any feelings of regret or thoughts that express any indication of remorse over being the cause of his death at all that is the issue BSG is raising.  As soon as Naruto takes her hand, she forgets that her own cousin, who just died protecting her a few moments prior, exists and is more concerned about the object of her obsession grasping her hand.  Compare this to Shikamaru, whose guilt leads a depression over Asuma's death that lingers for several chapters before he comes to terms with it. And unlike Hinata,  he had nothing to do with Asuma's demise yet he still felt responsible.

 

And as the Last proves to us, this disregard even extends to her own little sister , because she was ultimately more fixated over Naruto's memento of his mother than her own sister's well being. 

 

 

Also, and I might be pushing for a mod warning but I will say: Judging a person's integrity based on the critical opinion they have on a fictional character is the most infantile conclusion to draw and truly demonstrates your own utter intolerance towards opposing perspectives. If anything, that says more about the type of petty person YOU are than what can ever be said about BlackShirtGuy, and I'm pretty sure that kind of inflammatory comment isn't appreciated in accordance to this board's rulings.

 

This also further proves what I've been saying about Hinata and her fanbase: That you only care about what you project her to be, not how she actually is.  And sadly, she has always been defined by her selfish love for Naruto and little else.

Edited by Kagomaru, 08 September 2017 - 04:05 PM.

[Qia]

To add to the posts above, people are free to hate a fictional character for whatever reason they have. There's no actual rule set out for this.

[T XD]

 

No, actually. BlackBird has good points. 

 

My counterpoint to one is that it is very much true that Sakura cared for Naruto, but we were constantly reminded that she did not love him, but Sasuke. 469 really squashed it, and you get reminded of her love for Sasuke throughout the 500s and 600s.

 

This is really the same to two. We were not told by Naruto that he no longer had a crush, or by anyone really, equally as Naruto never said he loved Sakura, but on that same level, that crush was not really shown much either, fading further into the background. It's shown over told.

 

I actually do remember the fan reactions over the land of Iron Arc. For me this was Kishimoto dealing with it, , rather than scrapping it, both the earlier confession from Hinata and this chapter I think being clear early markers of the pairing direction aspect that would be the starting path to the end.

 

Kishimoto states specifically that he sees Neji's death as a sort of cupid, that the impact of the death itself had the effect, and less that Neji died for the pairing. He died because he chose to die for the people he loved. That is his canon, by his own words reason for his death. That it works to propel NH forward is just making good use of time and good writing. That is the truth. 

 

That you have the gall to say that Hinata should apologize to Neji for causing his death is silly. Neji died willingly. She was going to die willingly for Naruto. She wept tears. She reminded Naruto of Neji's words. She named her son with him in mind. Your painting of her being heartless is just so twisted and seemingly just full of hate. She is being held to ridiculous expectations. Why aren't we doing the same to Naruto, who he also died for? Or for Gaara who was brought to life with a sacrifice? Then mocking her for taking comfort in someone's hand for a moment, before getting back to the action of war. It wouldn't even matter if Hinata apologized or did any of the things you put forward, you would -still- complain. 

 

Yes, others could have maybe done the same thing. That is a what if it would have the same impact and power. But Hinata was chosen. That means something. 

Don't say no at first in your reply cause you just showed that half of what I mentioned, you said them in these two posts.

 

NH doesn't have to do with Neji's death : Check

Something about Naruto : Check

Neji's death wasn't for NH : Check

 

Now you're saying Hinata's early confession and 469 are clear early markers of the pairing direction aspect that would be the starting path to the end, whereas you said before several times, including to me, that NH was planned from the beginning and that we can see it earlier than what you stated in this post.

Edited by T XD, 09 September 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[sushi.]

I also believe everything started going downhill after fans' response to Sakura's confession. He probably thought the fans didn't understand his intentions and I heard Kishi consulted his wife when writing that scene - don't quote me on this but I think he spent a lot of energy on it and got upset when interviewers started asking about Hinata.

We had NS moments after that and when I think about it it's not impossible that 631 was a red herring. Saying all NS moments were red herrings is a ridiculous arggument, but that was so late in the game. Or maybe Kishi still had some fighting spirit but gave in eventually. We don't know. Then came the CPR scene and the NS/SK parallel, and anti SKs should not deny this moment - I believe that was the final goodbye message to those loyal to the story.

The moment I understood we were screwed in the manga was 693. From that point on I dreaded what was coming.

[T XD]

I also believe everything started going downhill after fans' response to Sakura's confession. He probably thought the fans didn't understand his intentions and I heard Kishi consulted his wife when writing that scene - don't quote me on this but I think he spent a lot of energy on it and got upset when interviewers started asking about Hinata.

We had NS moments after that and when I think about it it's not impossible that 631 was a red herring. Saying all NS moments were red herrings is a ridiculous arggument, but that was so late in the game. Or maybe Kishi still had some fighting spirit but gave in eventually. We don't know. Then came the CPR scene and the NS/SK parallel, and anti SKs should not deny this moment - I believe that was the final goodbye message to those loyal to the story.

The moment I understood we were screwed in the manga was 693. From that point on I dreaded what was coming.

Same here. 693 was a big sign with Sakura's character starting to regress.