749 replies to this topic

[rocci]

The emotion part was too campy, even for shounen.

Yes, and that's kishi way to solve the zetsu problem. After that there's no use anymore.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Yes, and that's kishi way to solve the zetsu problem. After that there's no use anymore.

That's right. It felt out of place in a way mainly because part 1 and early part 2 doesn't really contribute that type of sense. I remember the two chakra, light and dark was it, barely got explained, so it was like a moot point. Yeah, the chakra can do way too many things that it was breaking the original ideal of chakra.

[rocci]

That's right. It felt out of place in a way mainly because part 1 and early part 2 doesn't really contribute that type of sense. I remember the two chakra, light and dark was it, barely got explained, so it was like a moot point. Yeah, the chakra can do way too many things that it was breaking the original ideal of chakra.

Agree, it's a shame that yin-yang chakra doesn't get explanation.
Tbf, chakra is magic. One of the reason why people called naruto manga as wizard ninja.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Yeah, I know. It wasn't like that a long time ago. I mean sure there's not much ninja stuff in there, but it's one of those moments of imagination underutilized to the point beam and bomb are now power. Nothing like OP always come up with crazy yet imaginative powers.

[rocci]

Yeah, I know. It wasn't like that a long time ago. I mean sure there's not much ninja stuff in there, but it's one of those moments of imagination underutilized to the point beam and bomb are now power. Nothing like OP always come up with crazy yet imaginative powers.

Well, there's ninja albeit it use more magic rather than trick.
Beam and bomb come because rasengan. It's basically the kamehameha of this series and it's bypass the "spell casting" requirement.

I think, the problem on why he doesn't use more elemental/genjutsu ninjutsu, because he's not that creative and the manga lack fight.
Naruto only have 4 main characters but only two if not one who get consistent fighting.

[Bail o' Lies]

To be honest I think Oda  realized he reached his limit with 8-9 straw-hats. That why he is and has been splitting them up especially recently. But he makes up for it by showing new characters fight alongside the straw hats (which he really didn't do too much of before he started to split them up) while also allowing him to focus on the crew that are a part of the plot. Also the straw hats are all one men armies that just team up to take down bad guys. Also Oda also varies from having the group fight one on one fight or a group on one or everyone on one guy.

 

Kishimoto has never been even able to just do a four man team fighting someone at once. Despite one of the first lesson of this manga was teamwork. It always ends up with someone telling everyone else to stay back and turning into a one on one dbz fight. Also he never really explored or showed off Team 7's individual skill or how they work in a team (other then brief moments where the plot immediately points out how great a team they are because of those brief moments). and it not like it would be hard to make Team 7 work in a group.

 

Just off the possible skills they are said to have from both the manga and the databooks (to make it simpler all of them have some sort of summon):

Naruto has shadow clones, regenerative capabilities, great stamina, rasengan, wind and water elements.

Sasuke has sharigan, swordplay, limited genjutsu, fire and lighting elements.

Sakura has healing abilities, super strength, genjustu, water and earth elements.

Kakashi has limited genjutsu, and every base element except wind.

 

OK going from those abilities what possible way could this group work together...Let us it in a rpg setting. Yes, some of this is based off that one cover page.

Naruto would be the tank of the group he would use his shadow clone to keep the enemies pinned and focus on him while the dps do the damage. He would best be described as a summoning tank.

Sasuke would probably be an assassin. A close range dps using speed to get quick kills.

Kakashi would be the group's dps magic user. Using his wide and diverse magic(justu) skill set to either control the battlefield or lay down the big splash damage.

Sakura would be the group's healer and general support. Using genjutsu to debuff their enemies while using healing to buff her allies, and using water and earth powers to help defend her allies.

 

See not that hard.

 

The problem is the shounen style fighting really doesn't mix well with team work. Shounen battles are normally one on one battles. Where it is just slap fighting/dancing around each other. Until it down to the last minute where one person finally unleashes their super mode or glory or death attack ending the fight. Oda was able to make it work by the straw hats normally doing combo attacks, to show them working together. Kishimoto hasn't really tried that or really anything else despite once again his story is partially suppose to be about teamwork.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 July 2016 - 04:54 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

To be honest I think Oda  realized he reached his limit with 8-9 straw-hats. That why he is and has been splitting them up especially recently. But he makes up for it by showing new characters fight alongside the straw hats (which he really didn't do too much of before he started to split them up) while also allowing him to focus on the crew that are a part of the plot. Also the straw hats are all one men armies that just team up to take down bad guys. Also Oda also varies from having the group fight one on one fight or a group on one or everyone on one guy.

 

Kishimoto has never been even able to just do a four man team fighting someone at once. Despite one of the first lesson of this manga was teamwork. It always ends up with someone telling everyone else to stay back and turning into a one on one dbz fight. Also he never really explored or showed off Team 7's individual skill or how they work in a team (other then brief moments where the plot immediately points out how great a team they are because of those brief moments). and it not like it would be hard to make Team 7 work in a group.

 

Just off the possible skills they are said to have from both the manga and the databooks (to make it simpler all of them have some sort of summon):

Naruto has shadow clones, regenerative capabilities, great stamina, rasengan, wind and water elements.

Sasuke has sharigan, swordplay, limited genjutsu, fire and lighting elements.

Sakura has healing abilities, super strength, genjustu, water and earth elements.

Kakashi has limited genjutsu, and every base element except wind.

 

OK going from those abilities what possible way could this group work together...Let us it in a rpg setting. Yes, some of this is based off that one cover page.

Naruto would be the tank of the group he would use his shadow clone to keep the enemies pinned and focus on him while the dps do the damage. He would best be described as a summoning tank.

Sasuke would probably be an assassin. A close range dps using speed to get quick kills.

Kakashi would be the group's dps magic user. Using his wide and diverse magic(justu) skill set to either control the battlefield or lay down the big splash damage.

Sakura would be the group's healer and general support. Using genjutsu to debuff their enemies while using healing to buff her allies, and using water and earth powers to help defend her allies.

 

See not that hard.

 

The problem is the shounen style fighting really doesn't mix well with team work. Shounen battles are normally one on one battles. Where it is just slap fighting/dancing around each other. Until it down to the last minute where one person finally unleashes their super mode or glory or death attack ending the fight. Oda was able to make it work by the straw hats normally doing combo attacks, to show them working together. Kishimoto hasn't really tried that or really anything else despite once again his story is partially suppose to be about teamwork.

And through that aspect of teamwork, it could also show weaknesses in the way (Konoha's) teams are set-up. With the exception of Team Seven (who, personality-wise, were completely dysfunctional anyway), all the other teams were set up in ways that allowed them to really excel in one or two areas, but are otherwise very weak in other places together, with only one or two of the three members having anything to back themselves up aside from what the unit was made for and so if even just one of the members is incapacitated for some reason, that really leaves a noticeable drop in strength. Basically, the teams are overspecialized rather than truly "balanced".

Team Eight - Scouting
Team Ten - Simply a "next generation" deal.
Team Gai - Pretty general purpose

The problem is...

Team Eight - The only one with any real ranged abilities is Shino with his use of insects, and even then, they rely more on surprise attack than direct attack. If he gets taken out, then that leaves Hinata and Kiba, the close-range combatants, much more vulnerable to enemies that can simply keep their distance. Likewise, if Hinata and/or Kiba is taken, Shino hasn't been shown to be the most adept at hand to hand combat outside of more surprise attacks using his insects which aren't unlimited nor unstoppable. Kiba is also the only real "muscle" of the group as the Hyuga style is about precision strikes and not brute strength and so if he's taken out, there goes that muscle.

Team Ten - Haven't really shown to be that adept at a whole lot besides their own clan specialties (which I'm sure their parents made sure to keep covered in their time) which in itself is a big weakness.

Team Gai - Similar to Team Eight in that Tenten is their only long-range combatant but, at first anyway, didn't seem to show any skill in direct combat, obviously meant to be defended by Neji and/or Lee. If she gets taken out, once again, enemies can simply keep their distance from Lee and Neji and wear them down bit by bit. And because of Tenten's initial lack of experience with actually using her weapons aside from throwing them, if Neji and/or Lee get taken out or the enemy gets past them, she makes a very easy target otherwise. So I'm glad part two showed her to have taken up to learning how to actually use a number of her weapons normally rather than just in a Gilgamesh style fashion of launching them from a distance, while Neji at least developed the Air Palm to give him some slight ranged ability.

Of course, not to say that everyone must learn everything everyone else knows so they're so easily interchangeable, but at least give them a bit more than what they rely on so much. Even in RPGs, I try to, for example, have my main fighters/tanks try to learn at least some basic/mid-level healing abilities if possible rather than rely entirely on just a single mage or something to do it all.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, there's ninja albeit it use more magic rather than trick.
Beam and bomb come because rasengan. It's basically the kamehameha of this series and it's bypass the "spell casting" requirement.

I think, the problem on why he doesn't use more elemental/genjutsu ninjutsu, because he's not that creative and the manga lack fight.
Naruto only have 4 main characters but only two if not one who get consistent fighting.

I didn't mind rasengan when it was first introduced. Sadly, to make it more sufficient, Kishi has the idea of bigger means better. He didn't go for a way to make it special without resorting to grander scale. It could have been kept in the grounded level but instead, time to go DBZ.

Kakashi gets a battle but apparently, only against Zabuza he can only win. But either way, he only got very few. Even so, that's more than Sakura. She got one moment and I don't know why she don't get it anymore. One would argue, "Because she has no reason being there," such as "I have to find my brother!" or "I'll save my friend!" or anything. I know saving Sasuke is hers but in a way, due to intertwined with Naruto the protagonist, she gets brushed aside very easily.

That said so what. She can't have any characteristics? After Sasuke/Sai Arc, she just become the standby girl who hopes for Team 7 to return. No developments outside of that, let alone contacting anyone else. Just because she has to be in Team 7 bubble, doesn't mean she can't do anything. Nami's goal is so far away, but she won't be placed in standby. She fights, helps, interacts, and many more. Kagura's goal is similar to Sakura's goal except she gets it done and do more than just one track minded character.

Bottom line, there's no excuse for Kishi to sideline her and Kakashi in a way. A lot of things could have balance but I guess it's hard to ask for it when you want to give Naruto and Sasuke equal balance.

[Bail o' Lies]

And through that aspect of teamwork, it could also show weaknesses in the way (Konoha's) teams are set-up. With the exception of Team Seven (who, personality-wise, were completely dysfunctional anyway), all the other teams were set up in ways that allowed them to really excel in one or two areas, but are otherwise very weak in other places together, with only one or two of the three members having anything to back themselves up aside from what the unit was made for and so if even just one of the members is incapacitated for some reason, that really leaves a noticeable drop in strength. Basically, the teams are overspecialized rather than truly "balanced".

Team Eight - Scouting
Team Ten - Simply a "next generation" deal.
Team Gai - Pretty general purpose

The problem is...

Team Eight - The only one with any real ranged abilities is Shino with his use of insects, and even then, they rely more on surprise attack than direct attack. If he gets taken out, then that leaves Hinata and Kiba, the close-range combatants, much more vulnerable to enemies that can simply keep their distance. Likewise, if Hinata and/or Kiba is taken, Shino hasn't been shown to be the most adept at hand to hand combat outside of more surprise attacks using his insects which aren't unlimited nor unstoppable. Kiba is also the only real "muscle" of the group as the Hyuga style is about precision strikes and not brute strength and so if he's taken out, there goes that muscle.

Team Ten - Haven't really shown to be that adept at a whole lot besides their own clan specialties (which I'm sure their parents made sure to keep covered in their time) which in itself is a big weakness.

Team Gai - Similar to Team Eight in that Tenten is their only long-range combatant but, at first anyway, didn't seem to show any skill in direct combat, obviously meant to be defended by Neji and/or Lee. If she gets taken out, once again, enemies can simply keep their distance from Lee and Neji and wear them down bit by bit. And because of Tenten's initial lack of experience with actually using her weapons aside from throwing them, if Neji and/or Lee get taken out or the enemy gets past them, she makes a very easy target otherwise. So I'm glad part two showed her to have taken up to learning how to actually use a number of her weapons normally rather than just in a Gilgamesh style fashion of launching them from a distance, while Neji at least developed the Air Palm to give him some slight ranged ability.

Of course, not to say that everyone must learn everything everyone else knows so they're so easily interchangeable, but at least give them a bit more than what they rely on so much. Even in RPGs, I try to, for example, have my main fighters/tanks try to learn at least some basic/mid-level healing abilities if possible rather than rely entirely on just a single mage or something to do it all.

The thing specializing does make sense to a certain degree. Armies, business, and even rpg have people specialize in one area so you can have someone that i really good at handling one task. Even in a rpg you still have a designated tank and a designated healer. You just give them some abilities that if worst comes to worst they can handle themselves. When you want to send a team out to track some one down you send team 8. When you want someone to escort a caravan you send team Gai. When you want a espionage team you send team 10. And when you need a enemy taken down you send team 7.

 

(this is all the manga not the anime filler):

 

The thing is once again kishi has never really shown any team really working together for any period of time. The only one he some time does make them work together is Team 10 and that only because he made their power so they have to work together. Even then there first showing was not a 3 on 3 match against the sound team as it was three 1 on 1 stalling tactics. I think they work together a few time during the war arc.

 

I don't think we have ever seen team Gai fight together. team 8 fight normally are Kiba charges, Shino win the fight using his bugs, and hinata twiddles her thumbs while thinking about "Naruto-kun."

 

The rescue Sasuke group barely fought together and it was normally just them flailing around until one guy to everyone to go on ahead because he got this.

 

Now lets look at the main cast to just show how often in their fight they work together when they were suppose to be teaching kids about team work.

 

The genin exam was suppose to teach this lesson so skip it.

 

The wave arc. Sasuke did everything in the first fight. Second fight kakashi was the only one that could fight Zabuza, until he got captured and Nartuo then broke him out. He really didn't need Sasuke for his plan if he knew that double shadow throwing technique. But it was still praise as them working together 'so perfectly.' Fight against haku was basically stalling till Sasuke got knocked out then Naruto ended the fight.

 

Chunin exam. First fight was against orochimaru was Sasuke and Sakura scared to death till naruto snapped them out of it. Then Sakura chewed out Sasuke. Then it was Sasuke's fight. Against Gaara Sasuke was already out when the rest of the team arrived, Sakura was quickly knocked out,and then it was up to Naruto.

 

Second bell test we are told Naruto and Sakura work great together.

 

Rescue Gaara arc. One of the few time we actually see teamwork mainly with Chiyo and Sakura mind you but lets take it.

 

Sai and Tenzo introduction. Shows them training together, which plays into nothing because it turned into a one on one fight with Kurama and Orochimaru. And during the reunion with Sasuke they all look incompetent so Sasuke could look powerful.

 

The zombie brothers was Shikamaru's personal revenge fight, and Naruto showing off his new skills.

 

The hunt for Itachi was them looking like idiots during  their fight with Obito until the Sasuke vs Itachi fight was over.

 

Pein arc was showing off Naruto skills again.

 

They were a mess during the five kages arc.

 

Then the war arc/kaguya fight where for panels they could worked together and were immediately praise for their teamwork. Then went back to fighting on their own. Then worked together for a panel. Get praised for their team work. Then back to fighting alone. Rinse and Repeat.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 July 2016 - 08:35 PM.

[rocci]

@touken
While I can understand on why kishi make naruto only use rasengan, I have to disagree with the notion the fight need to be ground because it already hint that it will not ground fighting (and it will not become dbz world destroyer style either).
Rasengan is naruto kamehameha, getsuga tensho, gomu2, meteor Pegasus or that spirit Gun. A trademark move in order to distinguish and become the hero staple move. he can use more variety thought, I mean why naruto doesn't use summonin jutsu against deidara?

Kakashi is not kishi favorite despite him being fan favorite. If that kind or character can't get justice what make a female unpopular character like sakura to have a better than kakashi?
With that said, kishi need to develop her both in character and power. I mean a character like sakura really need that the most, especially power because this is a battle manga. The more destruction you can make, the more people will like you.

But then kishi himself really suck at writting.

@bail
Onepiece rarely use team work.
It always one vs one.

Kishi can't do that because unlike oda, he doesn't create many villain characters to oppose the hero characters. Op always have someone to fight.

Edited by rocci, 03 July 2016 - 10:21 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

No, there are a few time where it is the group fights one person,- or group against group or one person vs group,- like Oz all of them fighting him. Yes, it is normally one on one 95-97% of the fights are one on one but Oda does mix it up. Which keeps the battles interesting. Also the main themes of One Piece is adventuring and friendship. So cooperation in battle is not a requirement. Naruto themes are determination and teamwork. So it is required that their be fights where they do work as a group instead of one on one against the same person. It is always one on one or one on group in Naruto. Even the battle with the ten tails and kaguya felt like they were one on one somehow.

 

The straw hats do use combo attack and have been using them more frequently as the story has gone on. I can recall only one time Naruto and Sasuke have ever done what i consider a combo attack. It was during the war arc where Naruto threw a rasenshuriken and Sasuke lit it on fire with his black flames. and from what I recall. The entire story had to stop for basically a chapter to praise the perfection of their attack and how perfect and flawless their team work was. Which is a problem every-time people work together. The manga has to stop and applaud itself for the moment of teamwork. Any scene of teamwork in Naruto immediately feels artificial because the manga always stops to pat itself on the back for remembering that its a story about teamwork. They never let a moment of team work just slip under the radar and be consider natural part of the story, that you can just notice. Well unless it involves Sakura.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 04 July 2016 - 03:46 AM.

[rocci]

@bail
That's why I said rarely use teamwork, because most of the time it's one vs one. Luffy always fight the boss, zorro against second stronger sub boss, sanji against the third, and so on.

While I agree that naruto could have teamwork fight, that doesn't mean it must be happened all the time because naruto is a battle manga that require one vs one. The only time a battle manga have team work is against powerful character who can't be one vs one because he/she too powerful or against powerful non human character.

Kaguya and ten tail is team work, Eventhought it's not entertaining imo.
Kaguya fight only naruto and sasuke that do team work.
Ten tail fight with naruto & ninja co.
Wait when I think about it, naruto has teamwork fight like sakura & chiyo vs sasori, kakuzu vs shikamaru team, deva path vs team kakashi, and taka vs killer bee.
Personally I would rather have more one vs one fight in naruto since it would help some character development like sakura. Too bad kishi is not creative enough to make more characters.

Onepiece do combo attack mostly against fodder or super fodder.
I agree that naruto has force team work since kishi need to hype up team seven.

[VanitasDS76491]

By your powers combined, I am a weird angry mother tree thing!!!

Cute Captain Planet reference. Turn Ted Turn drops Sasuke out a window.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

 

 

I know the mangaka of Pandora Hearts (Which I still need to finish reading actually, on Volume 11)  is doing another manga series, can anyone tell me if it's as good as that one? 

 

 

*off topic post*

 

Vanitas no Carte, the mangaka's new manga, is off to a largely very promising start. But, there are only seven chapters yet so it's much too soon to say how it compares to Pandora Hearts. One strength VnC does have over​ PH is a more consistent art quality, since Michizuki's artistic style was constantly evolving while she was writing PH.

 

*off topic post end*

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: Perhaps if Kyuubi wasn't really powerful like destroying a mountain with ease, the flow of Naruto's battle would have remain grounded rather going DBZ because we won't be expecting over the top power level, instead of many craziness that occurred in War Arc or earlier.

Agree or disagree?

I think I have to disagree on this. Yes, that was a hint, but it can be avoided down the road. Instead, he took it to the highway. Bijuus felt like they were the only ones that can overpower everyone, but then we got human size character start wrecking everyone like no tomorrow, and that threw away the fear of these monsters.

If anything, that thing (forgot the name) before becoming Juubi could have work as a monster that just absorb Bijuus and that's it. The idea is frightening enough, so why have him apparently can change designs to the point it's a tree? It felt more "no clue on what to do" than anything, so Kishi made it to a tree that soon to be a goddess. Ok...

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: It's thanks to anime that people are misled to the actual content (manga), such as pairing moments that didn't happen, more fighting that is more in-line with taijutsu, and characters that appear to be more than the original self. Because of them, people become a much hardcore fan than what it perhaps could have been toned down, to the point they see it as the greatest series ever.

Agree or disagree?

[tricksie]

I would say definitely yes. The Hinata/Hyuuga emphasis in the anime is a perfect example. They went overboard with her story, her pining for Naruto from afar, and  the Hyuuga backstory. I don't blame anime fans who thought NH was the endgame — the anime delivered it that way. 

 

As for greatest series ever...I don't know. I think that might be the case only if your an anime fan and only if you ship NH. Otherwise, the story's got lots of holes. And if you've read the manga, then you know that the anime distorted the original characters (so that it can't be the greatest series, because the point of the manga (naruto's hero's journey) was never fulfilled).

[rikakim94]

I put the blame on kishi for making sakura unlikable in the beginning of the series. Like making sakura become a ninja for a shallow crush that she had on a boy and sidelining her a lot.

 

Now when you compare to that to hinata. In comparison at the beginning of the manga hinata was given a good reason to like naruto and the fact that she has a tragic backstory regarding her clan. Because of that a lot of fans find her sympathetic and they root for her to get with naruto and become the main herione instead of sakura. 

Edited by rikakim94, 10 July 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Nostradamus]

Statement: It's thanks to anime that people are misled to the actual content (manga), such as pairing moments that didn't happen, more fighting that is more in-line with taijutsu, and characters that appear to be more than the original self. Because of them, people become a much hardcore fan than what it perhaps could have been toned down, to the point they see it as the greatest series ever.

Agree or disagree?

Obviously.

[ultranx]

To be honest I think Oda  realized he reached his limit with 8-9 straw-hats. That why he is and has been splitting them up especially recently. But he makes up for it by showing new characters fight alongside the straw hats (which he really didn't do too much of before he started to split them up) while also allowing him to focus on the crew that are a part of the plot. Also the straw hats are all one men armies that just team up to take down bad guys. Also Oda also varies from having the group fight one on one fight or a group on one or everyone on one guy.

 

Kishimoto has never been even able to just do a four man team fighting someone at once. Despite one of the first lesson of this manga was teamwork. It always ends up with someone telling everyone else to stay back and turning into a one on one dbz fight. Also he never really explored or showed off Team 7's individual skill or how they work in a team (other then brief moments where the plot immediately points out how great a team they are because of those brief moments). and it not like it would be hard to make Team 7 work in a group.

 

Just off the possible skills they are said to have from both the manga and the databooks (to make it simpler all of them have some sort of summon):

Naruto has shadow clones, regenerative capabilities, great stamina, rasengan, wind and water elements.

Sasuke has sharigan, swordplay, limited genjutsu, fire and lighting elements.

Sakura has healing abilities, super strength, genjustu, water and earth elements.

Kakashi has limited genjutsu, and every base element except wind.

 

OK going from those abilities what possible way could this group work together...Let us it in a rpg setting. Yes, some of this is based off that one cover page.

Naruto would be the tank of the group he would use his shadow clone to keep the enemies pinned and focus on him while the dps do the damage. He would best be described as a summoning tank.

Sasuke would probably be an assassin. A close range dps using speed to get quick kills.

Kakashi would be the group's dps magic user. Using his wide and diverse magic(justu) skill set to either control the battlefield or lay down the big splash damage.

Sakura would be the group's healer and general support. Using genjutsu to debuff their enemies while using healing to buff her allies, and using water and earth powers to help defend her allies.

 

See not that hard.

 

The problem is the shounen style fighting really doesn't mix well with team work. Shounen battles are normally one on one battles. Where it is just slap fighting/dancing around each other. Until it down to the last minute where one person finally unleashes their super mode or glory or death attack ending the fight. Oda was able to make it work by the straw hats normally doing combo attacks, to show them working together. Kishimoto hasn't really tried that or really anything else despite once again his story is partially suppose to be about teamwork.

lets put it this way, we see dragon ball characters work together more in movies or a few times in manga than we ever see naruto characters working together, even the broly movies had more teamwork than naruto ever did heck in the meta cooler movie vegeta and goku were partly working together for once, without involving fusion, and in fusion reborn they worked together against janemba before finally deciding they couldn't win unless they fused.  still more teamwork than we ever got here....

 

 

also I agree, the anime did mislead ALOT of people, they do fanservice so much in the anime it tarnishes the original source and it's borderline stupidity....

Edited by ultranx, 01 August 2016 - 05:12 AM.