66 replies to this topic

[Blayze]

And if all else fails when you're trying to avoid making your OCs into Mary Sues or Gary Stus... Simply make them throwaway characters! And if you have an OC who ends up as a major character, don't forget to have a lot of non-angsty bad stuff happen to them (I call this the Vash Equation), especially when they mess something up.

[MBKon]

sure Vesp, it's called 'School of Cool'....

[PeacefulPhoenix]

uhhh.... this is just a idea, like i said, i came up with it at night... 12;50 AM to be exact, so i cant really say that that is gonna be a fanfic idea, and if i am gonna make his past un naruto like, well, let's see, he's a pervert cause he has a habbit of copying Jiraya, though he developed a wierd happit of AHEM while alone thing of the images, hence his alone-ness, for the get along well, he is a joker, not to fond of sadness, as he was a very sad kid growing up, sorta Naruto like, but different, his parents ignored him, and he grew up alone, though, his peeping keep him from a suicidal fate.

Oh, and i think i will produce a fanfic about this, but i'll keep the OC, or Zukame, in the plot, but far away, like say, Naruto was going to eat at Ichiruka, he'd be there, eating, so they talk about Sakura, then Naruto pays and leaves, and Zukame, still eating, will be out of there a few times, and come in when it is funny like this
SCENE FROM THE NEW FANFIC
----------

Click For Spoiler

"Ahhhh, isn't this great?" said Tsunade, relaxing in the hot springs with a wall between Naruto and Sakura.
"Yea Hag, it is great!" Said Naruto.
"Now, Naruto, if you peek at us, you'll be in a WORLD of pain got it!" Yelled Sakura, scaring the crap out of Naruto.
"Yes mam" Naruto said bleekly.
In a bush a few feet away, Zakume was watching Tsunade with a huge grin on his face, right until
"Hey kid" Jitaya said, scaring Zakume just enough to jump out of the bush
"AHHHHHH!" He screamed
"PERVERT" Tsunade and Sakura screamed as they both pummled and sent Zakume flying into the sky, knowing down the barrier between Naruto and them.
Naruto, getting up, turned around with his eye's shut and yeled "WHAT WAS THAT FOR"
sakura, already in a fit of rage, screamed "GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE", sending Naruto flying
Miles away.
"Good thing they that punch didn't hurt me so bad." said Zakume, as he brushed the dust of him.
"aaaaaaaHHHHHHHHHHAHAHHHHH" screamed an oncomeing blond.
"CAN'T I EVER GET A BREAK?!?!?!" Screamed Zakume, as Naruto fell on top of him.
""Urg, where the hell am I?" Naruto said, still a bit dazzed.
"Your a few miles away from Konohana, AND GET YORU ASS OFF MY HEAD!"

[MBKon]

uhh... dunno, but since when did you use that kind of spelling? anyway, vesp did you read the first chap?

[Vespar]

MBKon

Click For Spoiler

Your (and Ryushi's) fic is pretty decent and needs just a bit of polishing.
Like for example, skim through the fic and try to summarise the bits you want to outline in your head. Cut out anything that keeps the fic dragging or doesn't approach the point in any way. It's a pretty common mistake that many authors overlook.
Tsunade stealing from Jiraiya doesn't seem too plausible though -being that she's Hokage and all. Maybe if she'd done it because Jiraiya owed her money (plus expenses and grief) then it'd probably be more okay when she'd drank and gambled it away.
Oh, and you guys probably want to downplay your self-insert chars getting with the in-series cast.
Bad idea: OC wanders in. Stakes claim on a character. Generic story start. -This makes it sound like you only wrote the fic just to get yourself together with a Naruto cast member.
Good idea: (As evident by your fic) OC only puts the moves on a Naruto cast member TO SHOW Naruto the ropes on how to do it. -What I mean by this, it might be a bad idea to give screen time between yourselves and an in-series char without a reason pertaining to the summary of your fic.

PS. 'Maruko'? This could be a good thing and a bad thing... Usually, 'Maru' = circle and 'Ko' = girl...
How can this be good?
Well, you could use it as a long running joke, in which you'll have to explain your name doesn't mean that...
(How do I know this? You're talking to a Marco, you know. ^^; )

[MBKon]

well, i'm a Marko too ^^, that's why I named him Maruko, it's actually a Unisex name, at least it's better then Matako -__-

oh and, the first chapter was one of the less ones that will focus on the OC's, and yeah, i wrote the MarukoShizune , RyushiAyame as a side story... well actually, Ryushi did, i only made that part up in my head. And most of the other chapters are going to center around

Kiba, Shino, Naruto, Gaara(weird, i know O.o), Neji, Shikamaru and their respective pairings.

NaruSaku, Shino(not decided ><), KibaHina, ShikaTem, GaaraOC (one of Ryushi's ^^)

[Blayze]

Well, I managed to find what I was looking for. Can't remember how I came across it, though. This is the Mary Sue Litmus Test, originally designed for original stories. If your character scores higher than twenty points, they're in danger of being a Sue.

Thankfully, my character Luja scored a grand total of seventeen points. Apparently that means he's a well-rounded non-Sue.

http://www.angelfire...y-sue-test.html

[MBKon]

Damn, Maruko and Ryushi are borderlines ><

[Nate River]

Won-Ton, its impossible to tell because you haven't given us enough information. At this point all we have is a short scene that reveals that he is a pervert and a bare-bones description of his personality.

However, I will agree with Vespar. As I said in the other post, Angsty pasts are usually a big no-no, especially if it garners sympathy from other characters. As I said before, I wouldn't avoid the ansgty past at all costs (though I'm tempted to say that), but be very, very careful how you use it. This one is a really tough sell for most people and they may not even give your characer a chance if the angsty past if the first thing you present to them. Find a way to make it interesting without making it overly angsty.

But yes, he is definately an OC since he is your creation.

As Vespar said, the essence of MS, is perfection. Perfect looks, someone who everyone likes, strongest ninja, that kind of thing. The things I listed in my previous post are all common traits of OC fics, not just MS fics, but are very common in MS fics as well. If you haven't had the chance, read through that for a list of things I think you should avoid when creating your character.

Based on what you have stated, it is my opinion that you may be headed in the opposite direction. Specifically, you are simply picking and choosing character traits and flaws and creating a patchwork character.

As I said before, I think Blayze has a very good idea. Do more then just design a person with group of traits; design a complete character. Ask yourself these kinds of questions: why is a loner? From the scene you just gave, I never would have guessed it. It seems somewhat inconsistent with your discription of the character, at least he interaction with Jiriaya makes it seem that way. Oh wait, I re-read your post so I know why he is a loner. But I think you should expand on his past. He grew up alone? How so? Was he abandoned by his parents, did they die from some horrible disease or enemy ninja? Each possibility has a different effect on the character. If he was abandoned, maybe he is alone because he doesn't trust people and will push them away, so he is a loner by choice. If its enemy ninja, maybe he is a Sasuke-style loner and seeks revenge on the enemy ninja.

In addition, you say he is weak against ninjutsu, why is that...is he a slow moving and large target, does he squat like Shikamaru did during the Chuunin exams. or is it that he has no long range attacks, offensive or defensive, like Rock Lee? The reason things like this are important is that if your are going to write a battle scene, each description creates different types of problems and effects the battle in different ways. Shikamaru's weakness during his battle would have been closing his eyes to the battle and making himself a stationary target. He may not naturally be weak to ninjutsu, but when you do what he did, you are an easy target for close and long range attacks. On the other hand, slow moving targets are suspectivle to ninjutsu because they cannot get out of the way fast enough. Rock Lee on the other hand can do this, but his problem is he has no way of effectively fighting a enemy who fights from a distance.

And how is he with Genjustu?

So, are you saying that he peeps to give his life a little pleasure and that pleasure is what keeps him going? Interesting, I've never seen that angle before. If that's the case, wouldn't peeping be an obession, not just a hobby; that it would go much further than bathhouse peeping. Dirty magazine, Icha Icha?. I can think of other ways to develop this idea, but I'll leave that up to you.

I guess my point is, you need to expand on his past and character traits more than you have. What you have is a start, but if you don't think through these possibilities you'll end up doing character development on the fly and run into the after-the-fact/oh-by-the way development problem I mentioned in my previous post.

I point this out not to be mean or overly critical, but because they are things you need to consider. Too many OC authors avoid this kind analysis and develop the character by the seat of their pants, which is an easy way to walk right into a MS. Describe his past and define his abilities, before you start using him in a fanfic. Place the constraints from the beginnning rather than making them up as you go along.

Your doing the right thing by boucing ideas off of us, but you should think about and try to answer the question I've asked. These are the thinsg you should be asking yourself when developing the character.

Oh, and one other thing, what does he look like? Before careful on his physical appearance. A common them in MS fics is that the OC has exotic hair or eye colors. Describing really exotic physical features is a huge red flag for some people, so don't get out of hand with this.

In addition, Marcus is right, the grammar needs to be cleaned up. Have someone beta read this if at all possible. Also, when emphasizing words, don't use caps. It looks really bad. Use italics or bold (italics being preferable).

[MBKon]

i got that alright, but what if there isn't fighting in the fic, and it's a Humour fic?

[Nate River]

I didn't intend to cover every possibility. Yes, this was designed for a serious and probably lenghtly fic. He simply wanted to advice on whether it was a Mary-Sue so this is what came to mind.

Humor fics often involve a deliberate warping of the characters, so its a little different. Give me some time to think about it.

[wingsover]

I don't know if this is irony, karma, or simply me having to eat crow; but a little while after writing my rant damning all NCs to the fiery pits of hell, I...

made up a new character for a fic.

In my defense, she is a minor character, will do nothing except further the plot, and hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of defeating Sakura, much less Naruto or Sasuke. On the other hand...(bows head in shame) she's a Hyuuga.

Also, she gives Naruto a haircut.

Anyway, now that I've gone and kicked any of my credibility out...Vespar, I know what you mean about Ranma crossovers - that is a series just ready for them. Ranma (and Robotech) was my gateway anime, one of the first things I watched and the crossovers that I read introduced me to a bunch of other animes. I used to read Carrotglace's work all the time! Ah, the good ol' fanfic days of the 90s....

Shriner, your post is SOLID. Yes, yes, agreed to your list of usual MS fallacies. The dry-run thing is worth thinking about, too...hm, I never thought of it that way. Ack, the library is closing, gotta go! (runs off)

[Vespar]

Shriner, seriously, whereas my incoherent advice is akin to blind stumbling, yours is a clear walk in the park! I salute you! And methinks, I'll have to refer to it on ocassion as of now...

And wingsover, I'm actually pretty interested to see what you'll come up with! I'm already a fan of your work and I know I can trust you to do it as you see fit!

Currently, I'll be toying with an idea of both an XOVER/OC and then an SI fic. Though it'll likely be the worse thing I'll ever do to myself, I can't help but feel excited at the prospect of what I'll learn at the end of it. (-Probably the lesson to never do it again )

[wingsover]

Thanks for the comment, Vespar. The new character is in my latest piece of work, Coping Mechanism. It's mostly NejiTen, but with a generous helping of NaruHanabi and just lately some NaruSaku. I haven't posted it here cos NaruSaku is not the focus, or even the most likely pairing for Naruto, so if you're interested, you can check it on fanfiction.net: www.fanfiction.net/~cyberwolf

Hey, Shriner, your post on MS-characters and angsty pasts really made me think. it's true that the angsty past is usually what raises my ire re: NCs, even if they skip the usual "I was an Uchiha/Hyuuga/Gaara's-best-friend" angle. And it made me wonder why; I mean, many of the canon characters have angsty pasts. (they are the young of a society centred on mercenary work) Yet that doesn't anger me. Why?

Then I realized why. At first, the angsty pasts had relevance to the plot; and then they did not remind you of anyone. The one that repeated elements, Gaara's, was deliberately so to provide a contrast to Naruto. whereas most NCs have pasts similar to ones already established, and (unlike Kishimoto) characters who have NOT captured my interest and sympathy prior to the REVELATION.

Also, the others whose pasts are introduced are well-established in the series before their pasts are brought into it; I didn't feel like it was an interruption, distraction or scene-stealing.

Then they brought in Sai. And honestly I feel my hackles raise at him. Is it because he's a newly introduced character? I dunno.

[Nate River]

I think you make good points wingsover.

When writing fanfiction, you are taking an set of existing characters and settings. Thus, when doing this you are not only taking them, but taking their pasts, actions, fellings; the whole package, so to speak. I think that because of this the angsty past less of a problem in the context of the series.

You've seen the series and its fair to assume you like it and most of the characters (otherwise you wouldn't be writing), and, as a result, you take what has happened to them as a given. By writing your have already accepted the angsty past (of course people can and do write AU's that alter this) so its not the same thing as creating one yourself.

I also think that it is a stigma as well. Its one thing to take an use a character who already has an angsty past, but its different when you create tha past. People perceive the two differently. So I think that is one reason angsty pasts in existing characters are not a problem.

As I said before, its not so much the angsty past per se, its that its over and often poorly used. For example, I'm sure you have read a fic where an OC or MS had their family killed by Itachi. OC's in these fics usually end with Sasuke, since the purpose of the past is to allow them to identify with the younger Uchiha. Such a past is extremely unoriginal (really just a Sasuke-wannabe) and just a pure copy of Kishimoto's work. Yes, you are already copying by using pre existing material, but in fanfiction I think its expected you show some originality. People who copy like that look lazy.

The other thing is, that background has simply been used too poorly too many times. Serisouly, how many fics have you read with basic plot line of Angsty past as a lead into romance. It is almost always a device used to garner sympathy from the desired in-series character. In the Itachi case, the target would be Sasukel in a demon story, it would be Gaara or Naruto. It's just a cheap lead into romance, and I think this particular overuse has killed the angsty background story. I think people presume that its MS if a story uses that background, especially if the in-series characters sit there and fawn all over the OC as a result. They fill sorry and want to help the OC. There's no real development other than that limited dimension.

Male OC's, I think, tend toward the basass stereotype as a result of angsty pasts. I think I recall quite a few Sasuke-tyle revenge seekers.

I understand its use too some degree. You want an interesting background and angsty past is the easiest way to do it. In addition, its an easy means to the goals mentioned above. So, the end result is a cliche' character thats been done a thousand times with no true development or multiple dimensions.

Your right with the in-series pasts. Naruto is an exception, as you feel sorry from the get go. But because people do not know about it (I mean the children), they cannot fawn over him as a result of it. Moreover, at the beginning of the series the most likely result is just is just the opposite. Naruto is positive and earns friends, in spite of this past. His past, again at the beginning of the series, is something that drives people away. Nobody thinks much of him, but despite his past behavior (the pranks and poor grades) and the Kyuubi he makes friends. In may OC fics, the OC makes friends (and lovers) because of their past not in spite of it. Naruto is not liked because he is Kyuubi, he is liked because he is Naruto the person. For those believe Sakura is in love with Naruto, she does not love/like (as the case may be) because of his past. She didn't become his friend because she thought about his horrible past and the way he was treated and felt sorry for him. He earned her friendship by doing things for her and by being himself. There is a big difference between this and the typical OC angsty past.

Gaara and Sasuke are different too. When we meat Gaara, he was screwed up. He scared the crap out of people. And as you said, the intent was to make him a direct contrast to Naruto; another possibility of what could happen and to emphasive how unique and special Naruto is in this respect. And with Sasuke, people, I think, did feal sorry for him, but his fanclub was not as a result of his past, but their perception on what they thought he was. Another difference, is that, like Gaara, Sasuke's angsty past has screwed up. Its not an immediate lead into romance, in fact, if anything its pushing him in the opposite direction. The irony of Sasuke, is that he is working so hard to avenge his past family that he walks out on his new one. I looked back at 226, where Sasuke complains that Naruto doesn't understand what its like to lose people like that (because he never had them). As I said, its ironic then that he is, to some degree, willingly throwing his chance at a new family as he fights Naruto.

Sasuke's doesn't seem set to fall in love anytime soon, and its quite possible his past ends up getting him killed. I believe that, in fact, anything approaching friendship or romance in the first half, will actually retard for a while. He is not going to suddenly come back and say I love you, but will probably attempt to kill them since he probably sees them as obstacles.

In the end, I think that the angsty past is such a staple of the MS/OC diet that the two are presumed to be associated. It tainted that type of background. The background is not, by itself, the problem its the presumptions and associations that it creates that are the problem.

Anyway, I've gotten off track so I'll stop. Besides, I got to get to class.

[MonkeysTotallyRock]

There is also the Ginny-Sue in Harry Potter.

In fact J. K Rowling (the supposed great writer herself) plays a huge part in that word being in existance now 

Ginny went from a 'hardly-ever-saw-her-always-in-the-background' character...to a ZMOG! She is the funniest, wittiest, prettiest, and most popular witch in the whole entire school...and she can even kick all the boy's asses in Quidditch, datte-freaking-bayo!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks... i didn't know what it was either... we'll all pretend that my fanfic isn't a mary-sue...

[gamerman_007]

i have discovered a fanfic with naruto as a gary-stu.
Beware: Gary-stu

[Vespar]

You know , the recipe for a self-defeating fanfic is usually something when it contains one or more of the following:
- A cross-over (female) character or OC as a co-main character.
- Who has the sharingan. (a different sharingan, mind you)
- Add an obligatory tragic past. (Itachi and causing tragic pasts go hand in hand)
- To eventually become a Naruto/OC.
- pr0n/lime is reason to bring them together. (literally lust before love)

My point to it (partially inspired by Shriner's points in the overuse of MS'); I'm gonna see if I can do all of it, and do it right.
Otherwise, it will be a spectacular over-kill death. Either way, I'll have learned something and post my experiences here.


By the way, does anyone know the term (or even the indication if one exists) for when a character is crossed-over and is more or less partially redone to appear like they were always a part of that universe?


And yikes, Cyberwolf. Gotta apologise for missing your post! I'd finally gotten around to reading that fic and I like it! Planning to ever bring that particular aunt back?
(Btw, for some reason, I've never got alerts for your recent fics. I'll add you again and see if that'll help next time)

And you're probably a irritated with Sai because his past has mostly been rehashed cliches between Naruto, Sasuke and Gaara and hasn't proven himself to be his own person. ^^;

[Aaron Nowack]

By the way, does anyone know the term (or even the indication if one exists) for when a character is crossed-over and is more or less partially redone to appear like they were always a part of that universe?

Well, any good crossover that doesn't involve either two very similar universes to start with or explicit inter-universal travel will have at least a little of that.

"Fusion" is the closest to a generally accepted term if you need a separate one, I believe, when significant changes are made. I most often see it used with entire series than with single characters, though. A Ranma/Naruto fusion, for example, would involve redoing the entire cast and plot of either or even both series so that they made sense as having always been in the same universe, which could be primarily based on either original universe depending on the story.

[Yori Uzumaki]

Some Oc' tend to get on my nerves. Most of them are far out of character for the show it's self, like they try and put a hyper active person with Sasuke who acts like this: And then they grow to like her. Xp yuck. Make them fit into the story, but don't make them a perfect person. Give them a few flaws and don't over do the personality, it makes the reader want to punch out the computer screen.