41 replies to this topic

[sushi.]

If I remember correctly, weren't there Kishimoto statements and interviews that all said that The Last wasn't even his idea. That Sakura really did fall in love with Naruto but was still in love with Sasuke too. (The Last movie leaflet or something)

Also I think the biggest contradiction was his interview before the series ended and the 2016 interview.
It went from basically "you all say hinata hinata should be the heroine, but she's not. It's Sakura." 

to 2016 "lol sakura was never meant to be a heroine"

A lot of his pre-ending interviews all never spoke of Hinata and always referenced Sakura as the heroine.
So...really there's no argument there.

Yup. All of the interviews contradict one another. Except the ones before the ending. Those were always along the lines of, it seems like Sakura loves Sasuke, but has yet to figure out her feelings for Naruto. Naruto's feelings for Sakura were never questioned or brought up because it was plain obvious.

 

Kishi has said, at times he considered making NS canon but changed his mind, and that he went for NH in the beginning, then in the middle, then he said he had no interest in it at all. That all of this comes from the same mouth makes it obvious that there is a lie somewhere, and any "analyzer" should understand that.

[catsi563]

Ive had mosquito bites that were more signifigant then Hinatas contribition to the manga.

[Moon_Girl]

 

You must have had giant mosquito bites. 

Hinata really didn't have a ton of contribution to the series. I think her biggest one was the Hinata vs Neji fight. 

Her confession? Honestly, it wasn't even addressed in the manga after that. If you placed, say, Rock Lee in Hinata's place, deliver some huge friendship speech or something and he got one shotted by Pain, Naruto would have still gone berserk. The fact she had an obsessed crush on Naruto or the fact she was a female Hyuuga; neither were required for Naruto to go berserk. Ergo; if you replaced her with literally any other rookie side character, it would go the same way.
Oh, actually I'm wrong. If it was Sakura, Naruto would have gone from berserk to lost cause Nine Tails. But Sakura had enough faith, trust and brains to follow his orders. If anything, the only thing it did for Hinata was to prove the opposite in her case.

Hinata's little face slap and speech after her cousin was killed before her eyes? Could have been any other rookie. If anything, Hinata being the one to do it made her look horrible as a person. Naruto being affected by Neji's death more than Hinata, someone who was literally closer to Neji than Naruto, made her look like the terribad character she is. No one really needs to go on about how awful she came off as brushing his death off so easily simply because her crush was a foot away from her as it's been addressed hundreds of times by many different fans. 
That aside, literally any other rookie could have snapped him out of it and delivered that speech.

Aside from the Hinata vs Neji fight, you could replace her with any rookie and the overall story would not have changed at all. If her 'contributions' are going to actually mean something, then they have to be unique to the character. That's good story writing and that sets up good development. Hinata falls under neither of those categories. She did not have any sort of special bond with Naruto, unlike Shikamaru and Team 7, until literally the very last chapter. 

I've been seeing you around here a lot Analyzer and frankly I don't get why you're here. This is a NaruSaku forum and I don't recall a single member being happy with the ending. There are people who like Hinata, who hate Hinata or are indifferent to her and none of them are happy with the ending. 
​Even attempting a little to defend the ending, the pairs, character derails and assassinations is like a toddler trying to punch down a solid brick wall. Most of us here had followed Naruto, the story and characters very closely, been pairing debates and such for years and years on end. For me it was 10+ years. There's really nothing anyone can say or do to even attempt to change our minds.

Which is why you see the pro-enders bash us so much, but that's another story.

Edited by Moon_Girl, 24 July 2017 - 10:11 PM.

[Moon_Girl]

Contribution in a series. It's something I believe can't be replaced by any other character. I.E: Jiraiya and his role. Kakashi and his role. Gaara and his role. Killer Bee and his role. Itachi and his role. Shikamaru and his role. I could go on.

Hinata has never saved Naruto once in this series. She's encouraged him face to face, twice in all 700 chapters. Otherwise she just keeps to herself and twiddles her fingers. Being encouraging is a role anyone could fill. Hinata is not special in that regards.
Her interactions with Naruto are hardly different. Readers do see it through a different tint, however, simply because she has a crush on him. 
She, among with most of the other K9's, were there to add life and color to the series. Background characters. Hardly even supporting roles.

Rock Lee was simply an example. It could have been Choji and my point still stands. It could have been Kiba. It could have been Shino. It could have been Tenten, Neji, Ino, Shikamaru, any of his peers. Because Naruto deeply cared for the well being of all his friends. Heck, just people in general. 
Rock Lee and Naruto had a much deeper friendship than he ever had with Hinata at that point in the series. Heck, Lee was on the same boat as Naruto and Hinata in the chunnin exam with the whole loser ordeal. Naruto and Lee were both seen as losers and were also rivals for Sakura's affections. 

Hinata's feelings for Naruto were nothing more than a crush. You cannot truly be in love with someone you don't even know. Hinata was never close to Naruto. She doesn't know his feelings, his strengths and who he is. She doesn't know about his bond with Sasuke, his struggles as the nine tails holder. Heck, she never even had faith in him. When he was knocked down by Tobi in the forest, she flipped out and Sakura had to scold her for taking her eyes off the enemy and for not having faith in Naruto. 
Saying she had a crush is also being generous considering one of the shippuden databooks confirmed her feelings towards Naruto were 'admiration'. You can admire someone a lot without having romantic feelings. 
SO no. Hinata was not in love with Naruto. She never even truly knew him. That's just wishful shipper thinking.

 

Well, according to Kishimoto, Neji only died to make Hinata and Naruto closer. Considering at that point, The Last was already in production, you could say Neji wasn't even meant to die. In fact, I'm 100% certain he was not. His death made the whole Hyuuga branch conflict pointless. In the end, despite his whole character being about defying his own destiny, he fell to that very destiny. So one could argue that the whole scene was pointless. 
But that aside, yes it really could have been someone else. Again, could have been Rock Lee. He was close to Neji and he's close to Naruto. That would have made sense as well. It could have made sense for Sakura to snap him out of it as well. Hinata just happened to be near. You could say that it made her character come full circle, being the one to encourage Naruto instead of leeching encouragement by watching him. But that doesn't really forgive the scene afterwards. "Nawto-koon's hand is so big and warm <33333333333" she thinks to herself with Neji's corpse laying before her. Instead of thinking that she'll make sure Neji's death wasn't in vain or something like that, she was too busy fawning over Naruto's hand.
Which yes, makes her a terrible character. Aside from shedding a few tears, she didn't think of Neji at all during the war. The only time she did, was to beg him to save Naruto's life. Which Sakura was already on. The rest of the time, she thought about Naruto, how she wanted to be by Naruto's side, ect. It was literally all about Naruto.

She did not have a unique bond with him. Good grief, there wasn't really even a bond. Naruto barely knew her and the only time they talked was when she tried to help him cheat, when she gave him some medicine and before his fight with Neji. Even then, Naruto hardly considered her a 'friend' until their talk before his fight with Neji. She was just a kind yet weird girl. 
It takes two to tango, hun. And there was very little Naruto <-> Hinata bonding. Like I said, it was mostly Hinata ----> Naruto. I wouldn't even say they developed. The only development the two had was that Naruto stopped seeing her as a shy, dark weirdo and as a friend. That's it. He showed zero romantic interest in Hinata and that's why 'The Last' is a thing. Because the pair needed an explanation. If you deny that, then good luck trying to change the mind of 90% of the Naruto fandom. Considering The Last made about 80% of the Japanese fandom super pissed off and they bailed on the series.

I don't think you can. You've been a member since the 5th of this month. Even if you've lurked for a year or two, I've been here since 2012. I was there when the ending happened, the Last happened. Everyone here was watching very closely to the series and how the fandom was reacting in Japan. Heck, we used to have a Japanese member here that could confirm things first hand. Everyone here hated the ending and those that remain still do. 
You obviously were not here when light was shed on why the ending happened the way it did. The corruption and manipulation via Kishimoto's editors and Studio Perriot. That or you're ignoring it.

Your 'truth' is extremely flawed and from what I've seen in several thread, very unwelcome here. There's nothing I can do to stop you, but you've been irritating a lot of members with your false truths. Good grief, I've seen you blatantly deny a canon fact. Something that was clearly expressed in a manga panel because it conflicted with what you call, 'the truth'. You've denied the fact that Sakura has been the heroine of the entire manga from beginning to end. The truth is in the manga, the pages, the roles played by Sakura and the story itself. She is the heroine. Yet you're saying she's not because Kishimoto painfully and obviously lied, saying Hinata was AFTER the manga had long ended when the damage was done. No one except delusional Hinata fans have accepted that BS.
A girl that appears less that 1% of the entire manga series (yes, people have calculated this) cannot be and is not the heroine. Especially when Sakura, the true heroine, shows up at least 90% of the entire manga and fits that role perfectly. FFS, how anyone can claim that a girl that appears less than 1% in the entire story and is almost killed in every battle she's been in that focuses on her is the heroine needs some serious help and a long class on storytelling.

You're coming off to me as a crafty troll. It hardly matters if you're not, either way I think you're wasting your time here.
You wandered into a thread where people who didn't believe in NaruSaku still having a chance were not welcome and started spouting off your, once again, quite false 'truths'. Which was extremely rude. If your goal is discussion and debate, please stick with the debate thread and the debate thread alone. 

However, I'm not going to debate with you here anymore. Thinking on it all while writing this, you're all too eager to ignore the facts and debating with you is like pulling on a push door. Silly, pointless and neither will be going anywhere.

Edited by Moon_Girl, 25 July 2017 - 03:02 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

But that still does not contradict the larger point. He didn't mention this small detail this time, you cry, but the main point didn't change: It was always going to be X Pairing. This is consistent with ALL interviews. 

 

I would not agree with you that Kishimoto did not do much, no. Hinata may not have had quantity, but her impacts were significant, which is pretty much what a supporting character is supposed to do. A lot of treatment of her in this looking back is an evaulation that is more appropriate for a main character. 

 

Her'es a twist question: The answer depends on context. The idealism is yes, the reality is it is what works well. Regardless, it doesn't fit what I am talking about, there isn't a plot hole here.

 

It's not about pushing SS as is, it's about Sakura literally crying out her emotions in this state that she love shim despite his darkness, despite the fact she cannot save him, and his actions hurt. It sets up the next moment, because Sasuke's stance is about breaking bonds. Sure, it's an "SS" moment, but it serves a narrative at large, really putting everything in the hands of Naruto, because there is nothing Sakura or Kakashi can do in this moment to stop Sasuke. 

 

If this is Pairing Fodder, there's nothing wrong with it, the only thing wrong with it IMO is the unnecessary negative connotation your term holds, though if that is your viewpoint, fair. 

 

 

How is it a small detail if Kishimoto is directly asked whether he ever considered NS? Why do you insist on ignoring this? 

 

I don't think 20-30 additional pages and some clever edits throughout the chuunin exam and Pain arc constitutes "significance." If we agree it can replaced in such a fashion, we agree that Hinata is pretty insignificant to the story. And she is. Sasuke still leaves the village. Naruto still loses at the VoTe, Naruto still relentlessly pursues Sasuke throughout part II, Naruto still transforms in the kyuubi to defeat Pain, the War arc still proceeds as normal (though I'd omit Neji's death entirely and simply have Naruto suddenly come up with the idea to give everyone chakra) and Naruto still fights Sasuke in the end. Where's this vastly different story you're talking about?

 

Saying it all depends on the context is a cop out answer. Why should maintaining consistency ever not take priority over "avoiding exposition for the sake of pacing?" It fits perfectly well with our discussion since maintaining consistency is how you avoid plot holes.

 

It does set up the next moment, but Sakura does not actually accomplish as we can see from Sasuke's "You're my last friend" dialogue with Naruto. It is Naruto who reverses his stance. You could cut the entire back and forth between Sakura, Kakashi and Sasuke out and it wouldn't change anything. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 25 July 2017 - 03:58 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

Hey man, we're not done talking about Kishimoto's contradictory answers! 

 

 

 

 

This is all really discussed in the same point. The word is impact, which is really, the power of the story, and largely, when we talk panel swaps, to maintain impact, it's a much larger overhaul. This isn't a 20-30 page fix. Hinata's impact in this scene is built up through panels small, and lasting influence on Naruto. This is a scene really, as Pain sums up, of watching love get lost, and emotions turning into hate. Love. Not friendship,

 

You said it would be a massive overhaul to the story. I'm trying to find out exactly where this massive overhaul is by focusing on the big moments. And it sounds like we can leave all of those big moments intact based on clever edits and my 20-30 page fix. You specifically mention Pain, but we've already addressed that. Iruka is the closest thing Naruto has had to a father, so he's definitely love lost. Then there's Sakura, who appears to be a perfect swap panel for panel if we're going to make her the love interest instead. Of course, I could edit Pain's dialogue, avoid the semantics of love lost and make it clear that he is talking about the pain of losing people you care about (which is everybody in the village).

 

 

 

Let's re-visit Pain Arc. With a Rock Lee substitution, we have a fellow friend disobeying Naruto's wish of interference. This brings two giant questions: Why isn't his team jumping in with him? Should we say they are indisposed for this example then (More re-hashing. Look at all this extra time we have to add now, and we need them in the scene sooner, not when Naruto is on the ground. More overhauling. Oh, we need time to build up the closeness of Lee and Naruto for the impact. More overhauling. 

 

Because he's Rock Lee and simply told to stay put is not enough to keep him from saying put? Just like he did in the forest of death during the chuunin exams. Just like he did during the sound 5. That's Rock Lee. As for why his team isn't jumping in with him, that's almost as good of a question as to why NOBODY jumped in to help Hinata? No, I don't believe we need to go down this road. And by that point, Lee has had more moments with Naruto than Hinata has, so I really don't see what you're talking about. Naruto is the one who recruited Tsunade to HEAL the dude. They also worked together on the same mission to rescue Gaara. Of course they are close.

 

 

 

Maybe we could do Sakura, but she cried for Naruto to come in step in. Makes me think of I need a Hero song. She didn't make a stance of stepping in, her resolve to step forward and not be behind his and Sasuke's backs was not there yet, this isn't the war arc yet. And if NS was the plan, some overhauling would do the trick, with much less overhauls IMO than with Rock Lee substituting. But still, we are talking significant change. 

 

Nah, this fits well with her character. 

 

 

 

 

 

A quick flashback to this and Sakura being the one to interrupt Pain writes itself.

 

 

 

 

Ultimately its all hypothetical, but what we do know, is Hinata had a great impact in this scene. Why edit this at all? I'd question a lesser character relationship choice being put forward, and so would most other editors. 

To prove to the point that Hinata is insignificant. And it's not hypothetical. We could go chapter by chapter and I'd tell you exactly what pages I'd replace and the edits I'd make to write Hinata out of the manga.

 

 

Maintaining consistency is ideal, but in reality, rules are meant to be broken. Context matters. People point out plot holes in rather very succesful, amazing stories after re-watching them a thousand times, minor escapes missed because the language is breathtaking, the moment pushing the eyes onto something else. It's not a cop out answer, it's THE answer. 

 

People also point out too-much-exposition in rather very successful stories. Yes, there is no such thing as a perfect story. I'm asking you which is of greater concern: Maintaining consistency or avoiding too much exposition? Tell us how the context matters. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're at a point where you're having to pick between the two, you've already screwed up.

 

 

The last part is the same issue, build up. To jump right to everything would set up a question of pacing and drive being poor, of really illustrating the moment, and really showing the stakes. You cannot have tension without bulid up, nor a good plot without it. These are markers, significant moments. Hate them in their context of what they are saying because they aren't favorable to our pairing, that's one thing, but they do not discredit or hurt their characters involved. 

 

You're moving the goal post. If Sakura's role there was simply to transition the story to the next scene, there is no reason Kakashi couldn't have been used to do that while Sakura stands idly by. No matter how you look at, the only unique value she serves there is pairing fodder.

[catsi563]

 

You must have had giant mosquito bites. 

 

I live in Florida   

[ThroughWithLove]

 

There wasn't much to add about Kishimoto's non-contradictory answers. His message was the same in spirit every time. 

 

Okay, so I just want it on record then: If someone asks someone else a direct question two times and someone else gives a different answer both times, there is nothing contradictory according to you, right?

 

 

Why all the other characters stay out of the way makes sense, actually. Sakura is healing others, and there isn't anything she can do. Others are injured, or trying to find the real pain. Really, for most though, there's this dread that there isn't anything they can do. And Lee's Team is in route. 

 

Admittedly, I forgot about Lee's team being in route, but since Lee's team no plot significance, simply omitting that detail wouldn't change anything. All they did in the original was head back to village, get Hinata medical attention and then stand on the side lines. Take out the first two parts and then simply have Tenten and Neji be doing what everyone else is doing. Or hell, have Team Gai coincidentally head back early. Matters not.

 

 

 

Hinata steps in anyway though, because love. If you wrote her out, without an overhaul, you are going to have less of an impact, and there are things she does that only make sense for her to do. Her speech in 615 for example is one she can only give, and in the context of the Pain Arc, really, she's the only one who can step forward. You can do a rewrite mind, but you're doing an overhaul, and your story ultimately will be different. 

 

So we can agree then that there's no structural impact? That the impact, if any, is entirely tonal? That's fair. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

 

 

The Red Herring Subpanel you provide doesn't do it on its own, the whole problem with this and Sai's later one, is its a character -telling- another something. 

 

Why are you so quick to call it a red herring? Even without any romantic implications, it's clear she cares about Naruto and wants to help him. 

 

Moreover, if I'm rewriting the manga, why does that scene have to be a red herring? On what basis you dispute that this scene can be used as a device to get Sakura to jump in instead of Hinata?

 

 

For me, my greater concern is avoiding too much exposition. Why?  Because I do a lot of exposition. Continuity I make less errors with. This question doesn't have a definitive, objective better answer. Films cut and cut and cut out needless exposition, but still might miss a continuity error which no one misses or chalks up as horrible. Nothing in the Manga is a glaring continuity error. This is why context is involved, but more importantly, it varies person to person. You have this mindset it MUST be A, but what if it is B, or C?

 

Would it be fair to say that the reason you make less errors with continuity is because you're actively paying more attention to it? Would it also be fair to say that the story makes less sense when there are continuity errors (namely plot holes) present? I do have this mindset it MUST be A. And based on you've told us just now, I believe you're in agreement.

 

 

You're missing the point. Sakura is not -just- transition. She is build up, amping up really how far Sasuke is fallen. In this moment Sasuke hasn't really accepted Sakura's love, doesn't even see why. He's that deep in darkness. This moment also serves as a nice way to dispel Sakura without just throwing her to the side, which would have been more disappointing. Personally, I was all for a 3 v 1 Team 7 fight, but, I get the want for an N vs S conclusion, and he built to that well. 

 

 

We know how far Sasuke has fallen based on his plan to kill the kages alone and we already know the lengths to which he did not give a damn about Sakura (even going so far as to try to kill her on two different occassions). He's deep in darkness, but this is something we already knew as of the Kage Summit Arc. So again, what exactly is that scene really accomplishing outside of transitioning to the Naruto vs Sasuke battle in a flashy fashion (dispelling Sakura without just throwing her to the side) and pairing fodder for SS? 

There was no need for 3 v 1 team 7 fight, but there was a need to have Sakura live up to her promise to bring Sasuke back "together." That didn't happen. It got swept under the rug (which is the real disappointment). 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 27 July 2017 - 04:22 AM.

[tricksie]

 

We know how far Sasuke has fallen based on his plan to kill the kages alone and we already know the lengths to which he did not give a damn about Sakura (even going so far as to try to kill her on two different occassions). He's deep in darkness, but this is something we already knew as of the Kage Summit Arc. So again, what exactly is that scene really accomplishing outside of transitioning to the Naruto vs Sasuke battle in a flashy fashion (dispelling Sakura without just throwing her to the side) and pairing fodder for SS? 

There was no need for 3 v 1 team 7 fight, but there was a need to have Sakura live up to her promise to bring Sasuke back "together." That didn't happen. It got swept under the rug (which is the real disappointment). 

Right. Sakura's whole story, in the end, was swept aside. But then again, so was Naruto's. Neither characters reached their stated goals. And as for Sasuke, he may have been "redeemed" and fought again with his teammates, but in no way did he ever show that he had changed. Never coped with real fall-out or punishment for his defection. Never demonstrably showed affection for Sakura. And to support that - they even built a whole storyline around Salad not believing that Sakura was her mother. WHAT?!? 

 

Hinata was a plot device and the whole story ended in favor of Sasuke. But it had been going that way for a long, long time. It was a story that galloped out of control. And if you need proof of that, look at how the characters never reached their stated goals. The story just ended. And badly, at that.

[The Doctor forever]

Right. Sakura's whole story, in the end, was swept aside. But then again, so was Naruto's. Neither characters reached their stated goals. And as for Sasuke, he may have been "redeemed" and fought again with his teammates, but in no way did he ever show that he had changed. Never coped with real fall-out or punishment for his defection. Never demonstrably showed affection for Sakura. And to support that - they even built a whole storyline around Salad not believing that Sakura was her mother. WHAT?!? 

 

Hinata was a plot device and the whole story ended in favor of Sasuke. But it had been going that way for a long, long time. It was a story that galloped out of control. And if you need proof of that, look at how the characters never reached their stated goals. The story just ended. And badly, at that.

I very agree man I mean as many have said after Pain this was all about Sasuke not Naruto Kishi just Naruto the Hokage as he knew fans would hate that Sasuke got that as well, I mean we all know why Gaiden was just so Kishi can say this is SS are together and that they do love each other.

 

Its why I love Doctor who more than Naruto true it another show but they do so well when it comes to the characters.

 

When they created this hero, they didn't give him a gun or a sword. They cave him a screwdriver to fix things. And they didn't give him a space ship or a x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box that you could call for help. And they didn't give him a superpowers, or laser eyes, or super strength. They gave him an extra heart... And that is extraordinary. There will NEVER come a day when we don't need a hero like the Doctor.

 

That's who the Doctor is. Despite his faces, his abilities, his companions, and his desktop theme, that's who he is. A hero. Who cares about the people of all of space and time. He is a protector of the innocent and defenseless, and a wrathful hand against evil and hatred. He is, at his core, in every incarnation, a good man. And he is the reason why I still have hope that things can change. That evil can be overcome, that good will win, that desperation will be forgotten, and that hope can always save us. Thank you, Doctor... For helping me and all of us believe.

[Honestly]

Hinata was never meant to die my opinion by the way you guys just don't see the meaning for her is because your hate for her.she only has one job and she always did it and no it was never to get Naruto

[catsi563]

I have zero hate for Hinata its impossible and ridiculous to hate a character whose entire existence is as signifigant as the wallpaper on the bathroom wall.

 

Hinatas death if it had occured would have closed her story out with a level of relevance that she lacked prior to the event. Its a death that would have meant something to both her and to the other characters.

 

But in the end the scene was rendered pointless and she was reduced to plot device levels as part of the excuse for naruto to go boom. Not even the entire reason just the last straw as much as anything.

[The Doctor forever]

Hinata was never meant to die my opinion by the way you guys just don't see the meaning for her is because your hate for her.she only has one job and she always did it and no it was never to get Naruto

Not really man I mean if she had been killed then it would have shown that she was not cut out to be a ninja I mean think about it after she got Naruto she gave up being a ninja as she got what she wanted which was to marry Naruto. Looking after the kids can't be used as thay are both at school right now, so she just stays at home.

 

I mean I feel and this may be me but the only reason she became a ninja in the first place was simpley for Naruto that was it and when she got what she wanted shr thought there was no point staying as a ninja.

I have zero hate for Hinata its impossible and ridiculous to hate a character whose entire existence is as signifigant as the wallpaper on the bathroom wall.

 

Hinatas death if it had occured would have closed her story out with a level of relevance that she lacked prior to the event. Its a death that would have meant something to both her and to the other characters.

 

But in the end the scene was rendered pointless and she was reduced to plot device levels as part of the excuse for naruto to go boom. Not even the entire reason just the last straw as much as anything.

Very true I mean the only thing she wanted was Naruto, its why she became a ninja after all.

 

I mean I said before if she had died it would have been a good lessonfor people not to be so singel minded on something again Hinata only wanted to get stonger for Naruto, not her clan not her family or her friend and home just Naruto so he could look at her the way that she wanted him to look at her.

 

Its just how she would be killed and by who as well.

[Yyubie]

I have zero hate for Hinata its impossible and ridiculous to hate a character whose entire existence is as signifigant as the wallpaper on the bathroom wall.

 

Hinatas death if it had occured would have closed her story out with a level of relevance that she lacked prior to the event. Its a death that would have meant something to both her and to the other characters.

 

But in the end the scene was rendered pointless and she was reduced to plot device levels as part of the excuse for naruto to go boom. Not even the entire reason just the last straw as much as anything.

But she got served golden plate which is an ending of 12 years manga and 1 whole movie dedicated SOLELY for her .... isn't that amazing for such a side character ??

[ThroughWithLove]

 

What is your favorite color?

First Answer: Blue.

Second Answer: Blue, Green is my second favorite

Third Answer: Blue, almost picked green, but it was always blue

Conclusion: Blue is consistently their favorite color. What can we conclude: The author has a liking for Green.

 

Turn this into NH and NS interview:

First Answer: I considered NS, didn't work for me. NH was the plan.

Second Answer: NH Was the plan.

Third Answer: NH Was the plan, did an NS love triangle to make it messy.

Conclusion: I considerd NS, NH was the plan, did an NS Love triangle to make it messy. Hey, I can put them al together. Oh, main point: NH was the plan.

 

Nope, not contradictory.

 

False analogy. 

 

Here is what you should have said:

 

What is your favorite color? And have you ever liked any other color just as much?

First Answer: My favorite color is blue, but there was a time when I couldn't decide between blue and green.

Second Answer: Blue is favorite color. Green has always been a distant second and has never come close! 

 

One answer indicates you liked green and blue equally at one point. The other answer indicates that you've never liked green. The fact that the you answer that you like blue consistently is immaterial to the fact that the answers contradict each other.

 

You still would need to build up Lee's friendship. Why is -this- person of all other friends jumping in .It needs specialness, and Lee doesn't quite have that. You can get that with an overhaul. But not with some mere swaps.

 

We've been over this already. Lee identifies with Naruto since Naruto, like him, is also a loser who has had to rely upon hard work to get better. What's more, it was thanks to Naruto's efforts that Tsunade was brought back to the village and able to heal Lee of his injuries. It was Lee who saved Naruto from Kimimaro. We already have friendship on the table and have a character who identifies with Naruto. Same applies to Konohamaru, Iruka and Sakura.

 

No, no, no. That's not what Structural Impact is. Hinata is literally weaved into the Pain plot here, as in she is the -acute- trigger to rescue him, though he falls into darkness, which is actually a distinct part of the hero's journey, where Naruto literally almost gives into the darkness, only stopped by Minato. Her impact here is huge structurally, strengthened and founded by love/relationship build up/who she is/The situation at hand. 

 

Structurally, in order for the swap out to work, you simply need someone close to Naruto in order to jump in, rescue him, seemingly get killed and cause Naruto to go nine-tails mode. I've given multiple characters not-named Hinata who could serve this purpose and keep the overall narrative structure in tact. Your argument in regards to Hinata aren't about structure, but instead about the weight and impact. Tone, if you will. I disagree of course, but given the subjective nature that such an argument leans upon, I'm willing to agree to disagree.

 

 

 

As for this point: Because the Manga says it is a Red Herring, and you can tell, words are never said, and it could be or mean anything. Sakura does care for Naruto, but care != love romantically. But hey, if you're rewriting the manga, you can do whatever you want. Scene might not even be there in your re-write.

 

I don't believe the manga ever says that scene is a red herring.  I believe the author declares certain scenes (namely the Kushina parallels) to be a red herring after the fact. You might want to show everyone what you're talking about exactly with a specific chapter and page reference.

 

I think the implications in that scene are pretty obvious and a fine example of what Kishimoto meant when he said he was on the fence at one point.

 

And yes, in this hypothetical scenario where I am writing Hinata out of the manga, using this scene as grounds to have Sakura jump in works just fine. All the more reason I wouldn't need any more to 20-30 new pages of content in order to make the manga Hinata-free.

 

 

No, this next part is not true: I'm not actively paying more attention to it, nor agreeing. My works typically aren't as huge and big as Kishimoto's, and on a work this size, you literally have to keep records of everything, else, yes, a hardcore fan will be able to look back and say that is inconsistent. Mind though, plot hole is the wrong word, merely detail that doesn't retain its continuity, is the better word. I have not seen a point in Naruto where they create a plot hole.

 

 

The whole business with having Orochimaru get resurrected via the curse seal on Anko's neck and get his arms back through this shinigami mask creates two plot holes in that solutions to problems he had throughout the story could've easily be pursued to undo the obstacle that was created for him at the end of the chuunin exam arc. As is Kurama ever having once feared his own demise as a result of not giving Naruto chakra given that the tailed beast apparently come back to life upon the death of their jinchuriki.

 

 

 

On your last part: I don't think it was ever expected for Sakura to do this, the expectation was not built up that way. Sure, Sakura can make X promise, but the story does not heighten, does not pressure up, or emphasize this promise. It's a statement that Sakura wants then, but not something the plot is obligated to do. No, just because there is build up hundreds of chapters ago, that emphasized this, does not mean that we can skip it this item. What Kishimoto did worked much better than your suggested transition, which would be, at most, a disappointment.

 

Never expected for Sakura to do this? Then why bother having her say that if there was no intention of going through with it? Why bother having her go through all the training between the timeskip? Could it be the author just throws stuff in the story without any intention of following through with it? 

 

Who is saying anything about skipping? Skip implies that the scene needed to be there. Was there any doubt that Sasuke had darkness in his heart upon explaining that he planned to kill the kages?

 

Massively disagree on the end product working better than actually making use of ideas you introduce in the story. Namely ideas introduced regarding Sakura. If it serves no purpose, it doesn't need to be there.

[ThroughWithLove]

Right. Sakura's whole story, in the end, was swept aside. But then again, so was Naruto's. Neither characters reached their stated goals. And as for Sasuke, he may have been "redeemed" and fought again with his teammates, but in no way did he ever show that he had changed. Never coped with real fall-out or punishment for his defection. Never demonstrably showed affection for Sakura. And to support that - they even built a whole storyline around Salad not believing that Sakura was her mother. WHAT?!? 

 

Hinata was a plot device and the whole story ended in favor of Sasuke. But it had been going that way for a long, long time. It was a story that galloped out of control. And if you need proof of that, look at how the characters never reached their stated goals. The story just ended. And badly, at that.

 

As I've expressed in multiple threads, that's Sakura's arc throughout part 2 in a nutshell: Wasted potential. WIth the ending we got, we're forced to conclude that Sakura's overall character arc ended in part 1 and that she was simply along for the ride in part 2. Kishi puts her in several big moments throughout part 2, but they never end up amounting to anything and always get subverted afterwards. 

 

As for Naruto's arc, I'm still scratching my head about what exactly it was. In part 1, it's all about acknowledgment. In part 2, borderline insanity is my best guess. 

 

Sasuke's arc was incredibly lazy and all over the place. Honestly, I've been giving it some thought, but if it had to be done all over again, the best approach for Sasuke as of part 2 would be to keep him behind the scenes at all times until the final arc (which wouldn't be the crappy war arc, but something more central to Konoha). Naruto would be actively looking for Sasuke, but would always be one step behind and the readers would only be exposed to whatever chaos/carnage/problems he has left behind. Without actually seeing him, Sasuke is always left to the reader's imagination. How strong he has gotten. How terrifying he is. How dark he has grown. We wouldn't know! There could be a scene where Naruto and company arrive at Orochimaru's lair, only to encounter a crazed beaten and battered Orochimaru, laughing devilishly about the monster he's created. T

 

This approach makes Sasuke menacing, but also keeps him thoroughly in the background, given us more time to focus on Naruto getting actual growth and character development related to his goal of becoming Hokage (none of this "If I can't save a friend, I don't deserve to be hokage" stuff). It also gives us more time to work on Sakura and assess her character flaws in a fashion that is woven wonderfully into a narrative. Thus, when the final story arc rolls around, we have two characters mentally/emotionally/physically ready to bring Sasuke back together  just as they promised to do in the final chapter of part 1. And they would do so using each and every lesson they had learned throughout their respective arcs.    

[gamma]

Granted, Sasuke did change, we see this in the last few chapters, and we also have a moment where he shows direct affection. Sasuke though, is not a very affectionate person, really catalyzed by how damaged he is, and it's noteworthy that his gesture of affection is both a meaning of love but also distance, symbolic of the price of his journey. 

 

A moment of "affection" does not erase the fact that he's found her worthless multiple times through out the manga and tried to kill her repeatedly. That he's been away for 15+ years leaving behind his suspicious child and oblivious wife in the dust. The tragedy, unhappiness and ridiculousness of it all heavily out weights whatever might have been "symbolic" about showing up to for half a second to save the day and to ask if she's ok, to be vague then disappear once again. It's just so sad.

 

Sasuke has not changed. He still acts like he's too cool for school, taking his time frolicking wherever without communicating to his supposed "loved ones", despite there being a phones and computers. Not even a letter from him. He talks to Naruto more than his family. It shows that Sakura has zero effect and influence on him, even though they're married.

 

So tired of this "he's just a broken boy" excuse. If he still has unfinished business so important to him that he leaves his family for that long without a single word to them, then he should focus on that instead of creating useless drama and speculations.

 

 

 

Finally, Sasuke didn't achieve his goals, persay, but his goals were changed by the end, and he was pursuing them, Redemption, namely. 

 

Looks like he's still looking for redemption and atonement for 15+ years to me.

 

 

 

Sakura did keep up with her teammates

 

As much as I'd like to see that. Realistically, if your comparing her to them, she's still shadowed by them because of their immense, God-like power. I remember reading one of those Naruto novels that they didn't even mention her as a legend—only just Kakashi, Naruto and Sasuke. No respect whatsoever.

 

Stripe away all the power from them and I do think she levels up to them. I do think she's surpass Tsunade though.

 

 

 

and saw Sasuke return from the darkness, something she always wanted. Naruto, too, wanted this

 

What Sakura and Naruto also wanted was for Sasuke to come home, and stay home. And is he? No. 

[gamma]

As for whether Hinata should have died or not? I don't know. Wasted potential either way. All she was made for is to have Naruto's babes and to do his housework.

 

I have zero hate for Hinata its impossible and ridiculous to hate a character whose entire existence is as signifigant as the wallpaper on the bathroom wall.

 

Hinatas death if it had occured would have closed her story out with a level of relevance that she lacked prior to the event. Its a death that would have meant something to both her and to the other characters.

 

But in the end the scene was rendered pointless and she was reduced to plot device levels as part of the excuse for naruto to go boom. Not even the entire reason just the last straw as much as anything.

 

^^^ & this

[Yyubie]

 

A moment of "affection" does not erase the fact that he's found her worthless multiple times through out the manga and tried to kill her repeatedly. That he's been away for 15+ years leaving behind his suspicious child and oblivious wife in the dust. The tragedy, unhappiness and ridiculousness of it all heavily out weights whatever might have been "symbolic" about showing up to for half a second to save the day and to ask if she's ok, to be vague then disappear once again. It's just so sad.

 

Sasuke has not changed. He still acts like he's too cool for school, taking his time frolicking wherever without communicating to his supposed "loved ones", despite there being a phones and computers. Not even a letter from him. He talks to Naruto more than his family. It shows that Sakura has zero effect and influence on him, even though they're married.

 

So tired of this "he's just a broken boy" excuse. If he still has unfinished business so important to him that he leaves his family for that long without a single word to them, then he should focus on that instead of creating useless drama and speculations.

 

 

Looks like he's still looking for redemption and atonement for 15+ years to me.

 

 

As much as I'd like to see that. Realistically, if your comparing her to them, she's still shadowed by them because of their immense, God-like power. I remember reading one of those Naruto novels that they didn't even mention her as a legend—only just Kakashi, Naruto and Sasuke. No respect whatsoever.

 

Stripe away all the power from them and I do think she levels up to them. I do think she's surpass Tsunade though.

 

 

What Sakura and Naruto also wanted was for Sasuke to come home, and stay home. And is he? No. 

Bolded : Allow me to add that (The Last said:) they should have a cell phone (that means they should already have satellite in space)

https://vignette4.wi...&path-prefix=pl

 

These people always give sasuke sooooo many free pass and excuse for his kitten behavior.

What's they gonna say this time ?? "Uh Sasuke didn't have enough money to buy a cell phone because it's expensive!!"

Edited by Yyubie, 28 July 2017 - 01:08 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

I don't think you understand contradiction.

 

You still need to play up Lee's friendship. It's not established as firmly as you think. You have those things, sure, but you're going to need panel time and build up.

 

The whole point of this, to not go into a line by line addressing, is its not an easy panel swap. You -CAN- do it, not arguing that. Just arguing if you do it with minimal changes, your impact will, frankly, be awful.

 

The Scene you're pointing out still can be seen as a Red Herring. Note that nothing is actually said by Yamato, it's a teaser. A lot of NS stuff does that. I believe he considered it, thus only introducing Naruto/Sakura initially from the Konoha group, but considering what the manga ultimately culminated in, it is a Red Herring, if it went differently, then it wouldn't have been. really simple as that, really.

 

I don't think you understand -why- they wanted Sasuke to come home. They wanted to save Sasuke, that's the meaning of their words.

 

Yes, in execution, Sakura is overshadowed. This really hurts her relevancy, and I addressed this in a different thread.

 

And Sasuke is broken? It's not so much an excuse, just who he is. He did terrible things, frankly, and isn't the best father. But the why is that he is broken.

 

I think I understand contradiction. I also think I understand dead horse.

 

Will have to disagree with the Lee part. I think I've shown how to play up his friendship just fine (infinitely better than a character with far less screen time, IMO).

 

I disagree on the impact being awful. We're getting into subjective territory here.

 

I don't think the scene is a red herring. Just another abandoned idea the author toyed with before moving onto shinier objects (ooooo. Lets give Sasuke a team!). I think he considered NS up until the Pain at earliest and chapter 615 at latest. No point in obsessing over ways to make a "Kiba level character" more appealing otherwise.

 

I don't think you understand that they said they were going to bring him back. As in they were BOTH going to put effort into it. This led to Sakura training under Tsunade and Naruto training under Jiraiya.