26 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

So while looking up the term Anti-Villain I came across this on Tv Trope.
 

Sasuke Uchiha becomes this in Part II—though in a variation, he's been steadily Jumping Off the Slippery Slope as time goes by, and one of Naruto's main goals in the story is to redeem him before his Freudian Excuse stops being valid justification for some of the kitten he's been pulling (and planning).

 

That got me thinking, how much can you really attribute Sasuke's actions to the Uchiha Massacre? We all know he was scarred by it, but how much does it actually excuse? The Freudian Excuse it basically "you are doing all these things because your had a bad or rough childhood." Which actions are a product of that bad childhood and what are just inexcusable altogether?
 

I want to know where some draw the line.

[luffyq1]

Sasuke to me is a villain, and has been ever since he claimed to go after the innocents for the mistakes of others. Now he's doing the same thing again. He wants to kill Gaara, who by the way also had a pretty traumatizing childhood because of the system as well. What Sasuke is doing is no longer in the name of Uchiha. He is a villain and I refuse to believe otherwise.

[James S Cassidy]

Sasuke to me is a villain, and has been ever since he claimed to go after the innocents for the mistakes of others. Now he's doing the same thing again. He wants to kill Gaara, who by the way also had a pretty traumatizing childhood because of the system as well. What Sasuke is doing is no longer in the name of Uchiha. He is a villain and I refuse to believe otherwise.

Hmm...good point. Good response. Although I think a few might argue that Gaara was forgiven despite killing many as well in coldblood, so they probably would ask why not call Gaara a villain? How much does Gaara's tough childhood excuse? Not my personal opinion mind you, just bringing up ideas people could have a response to that with.

There are these fine lines where you wonder what is a cause of the issues they delt with vs what is the cause of them just being an ass.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 September 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Naruko]

Idk, I really think the Sasuke before the massacre looked very very different from the Sasuke after it. It's not like I'm trying to protect him, I think there's no plausible justification for the person he has become, specially because Kishi made Naruto with the childhood he had be the person he is, but he also made Sasuke's change right after the massacre, just like Gaara's change when he killed his uncle. So I guess the manga tried to use the Freudian Excuse, but it's contradicting when we look at Naruto's case. Maybe we have to consider that they are different people so they react on different ways to the same things. 

 

But despite Sasuke being like that because of the trauma or not, his actions still make him a villain. It's not like Gaara was not villain before too, he turned good later, but he was a villain, just like Obito and Nagato and the others. The Freudian Excuse is used to explain someone's actions, but it doesn't nullify them. Sasuke might act that way because of the massacre, but it will never make those actions less bad. 

[luffyq1]

Hmm...good point. Good response. Although I think a few might argue that Gaara was forgiven despite killing many as well in coldblood, so they probably would ask why not call Gaara a villain? How much does Gaara's tough childhood excuse? Not my personal opinion mind you, just bringing up ideas people could have a response to that with.

There are these fine lines where you wonder what is a cause of the issues they delt with vs what is the cause of them just being an ass.

I see Gaara as a former villain. 

[Swagkura]

Well, I don't know how I'd react to my whole entire clan/family being slaughtered in cold blood by my own brother right in front of me, so I can't judge him on that viewpoint. I see Sasuke as more of a anti-hero. Because he has a great point, the ninja world system does need to change, and he actually thinks this would be good for everybody, so he has the right idea. He's just going about it in a completely wrong way. He shouldn't have to kill innocent people to accomplish these goals.

[Naruko]

I see Gaara as a former villain. 

 

Yeah, basically. 

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Different characters experience grief differently. For Sasuke what he went through was a valid excuse to go evil and twisted. To be perfectly honest, as angry as Sasuke makes me, I can't completely judge him. I've never had my brother kill my entire family as an order from the US government but I also never had a family that wanted a coup d'état. I can't relate to Sasuke on what he went through so I don't like judging the justification if I don't even know how I'd react in that position.

 

This doesn't excuse Sasuke, but for me at least it keeps me from hating him (and whether that's irrational or not, I can't help how I feel). I would say Sasuke's excuse for what happened to his family was justified all the way until he decided to destroy Konoha and scapegoat them to blame for it all. At that point, it wasn't about honor for the Uchiha Clan or avenging his brother and family. It was about unleashing his pain on the world and to make everyone just as miserable as he was. Saying it was for Itachi was a lie. It was completely and utterly for himself.

 

So how much does that stretch to now?  Well ... it's still quite the same to an extent. Blaming kages like Tsunade, Gaara, and even the Mizukage for the system is irrational: they had nothing to do with that just because they are Hokage. They're the newest. I don't think Sasuke is doing this for the best. He's doing it because of his hatred and childhood, but genuinely believes it is for the good.

 

IMO, Sasuke is an anti-hero.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 21 September 2014 - 11:37 PM.

[Iwantbuns]

Different characters experience grief differently. 

 

That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

Experiencing hard pasts can lead people to really question their choices. Either work to make the future better with friends and comrades, or give into the pain and choose revenge and power. Either way works, but no matter what it'll always be scarred into that person. Sasuke gave friendship a try. He thought he could do it, without going on the wrong path. But Itachi came, and he realized that in order to do this and that (revenge and revenge) he could somehow get rid of the pain. It's either live happily and be miserable that his brother (his role model) killed his family, and didn't try hard enough to get stronger - or go on the path that he did, try and kill his brother, get revenge, get power, and become everything that he figured was required.

 

But in the end he continued to stay miserable. It's a pretty messed up situation for him. And nothing he did should be excused - and I don't think he even cares if he's forgiven. He made his choices, the way he thought seemed fit - they were selfish but he chose to move on from his life of friends and family, cause that was what was necessary to him. There's probably nothing in the world that could bring him back, because he dug himself a whole and fell deep into it. The only thing that pulled him partially back was Naruto and only Naruto. Because the one thing that got torn away from him (family) seemed to be right there in Naruto (a brother, a best friend).

 

Honestly I wouldn't want him killed, but I don't want everything he did to just slide. I think he's confused - just as he was the day his clan was slaughtered. He doesn't know where to go, what to do, and he's just doing whatever it is that he thinks he needs to do. He kind of... went crazy to be literal. His whole life is confused and I really don't know what Kishi is gonna do with him.

[James S Cassidy]

Well, I don't know how I'd react to my whole entire clan/family being slaughtered in cold blood by my own brother right in front of me, so I can't judge him on that viewpoint. I see Sasuke as more of a anti-hero. Because he has a great point, the ninja world system does need to change, and he actually thinks this would be good for everybody, so he has the right idea. He's just going about it in a completely wrong way. He shouldn't have to kill innocent people to accomplish these goals.

 

That's actually called an Anti-Villain. Anti-heroes have no care for governments or systems. Sasuke on the other hand believes that the system is bad and that it needs fixing, but wants to achieve this through evil means.

[rocci]

Sasuke is not a villain. Not in my book or maybe from shonen manga standard.

I agree with james, sasuke is an antagonist.
For me, he's more of an anti hero.

And gara was once a villain along with nagato and obito.

[Diadochi]

Sasuke's Freudian Excuse became nullified when he started targeting people who had no direct or indirect involvement with the Uchiha Massacre. Meaning his previous desire for the complete genocide of Konoha was (obviously) unjustified. If he stuck to his original goal of eliminating Danzo and the remaining two elders only, then his actions, albeit it terroristic, would still have been somewhat justifiable within his Freudian Excuse. His new goal is more complicated. Even though the current Kage had no involvement in the traumatic event that functioned as the catalyst for Sasuke's disturbance, they represent a system that helped foster the event in the first place.

[BlazingDynamo]

I honestly hate when fans say they don't know what Sasuke is thinking and I'm like did yall not see the previous chapter or are you just blind?

Edited by BlazingDynamo, 22 September 2014 - 01:53 AM.

[ns.Believe.It]

Good question James. My opinion is that Sasuke's excuse is feeble.  Its just that Kishimoto has not done the greatest job with Sasuke's characterization and some of the things Sasuke has done makes us believe he is the ultimate villain in this manga.

However, I don't think it was Kishimoto's intention to make him a villain. He is the Antagonist.

 

• The most important thing that Naruto looks for is friendship and understanding. Sasuke looks for power and control.

 

• Naruto is not goal oriented, he thinks about others. Sasuke is selfish and thinks about doing whatever is necessary to achieve his goals.

 

• Naruto prefers to forgive mistakes. Sasuke prefers revenge to punish mistakes.

 

• Naruto's tries to make people understand his way of thinking and change them. Sasuke does not hesitate to force others to his ideals.

 

• Naruto does not wish to change the Shinobi system, he wants to change its people. Sasuke does not care about the people and wants to eradicate the existing system.

 

• Naruto wants to create a bond of understanding between the tailed beasts and the people. Sasuke prefers to destroy the tailed beasts.

 

 

Villain is the wrong word to describe Sasuke. As you can see, He is the perfect Antagonist to Naruto.

Edited by ns.Believe.It, 22 September 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[TheQueenB]

While what Sasuke has done shouldn't be condoned, I really feel like he can't be blamed for it. Yes, he could have handled some things differently, such as his attempt on Karin and Sakura's lives, and I really dislike his attitude at times. However, he's a product of his environment. Remember, what we are is a combination of our nature and how we've been nurtured. He has a bit of the intense love and pride of the Uchiha and a very pragmatic attitude about getting things done, and all of the events of his life have combined with his personality to make him handle things in a very questionable manner. 

 

But it's important to keep in mind that he hasn't had a chance to recover from everything in his life. It's been a slippery slope for him. He was pushed into a path of vengeance, by his own brother's encouragement, which led him to be involved with some very toxic people. As soon as he accomplished his goal, the proverbial rug was pulled straight out from under his feet, and his world came crashing down around him with the painful realization that his trauma originated from a very darker reason, which ended up destroying everyone around him. After that, things became even more chaotic for him. 

 

All the pain from which he's suffered still underlies his actions, even with his change of heart, because he hasn't had a chance to distance himself from what's happened and entirely recover from it. His heart is in the right place, but he's going about things the wrong way, because he's so impassioned about getting things done the way he sees fit. 

 

Like I've said in the thread about the movie, I don't agree with his methods and ideals, but it would be unfair to punish him for many things that he's done, just the same, because he was pushed to this point. It would be like blaming someone and/or expecting someone to do something, although they've been deprived of something by no fault of their own and are unable to do so. It would be the ultimate cruelty for him to be punished by the very people who symbolize what made him what he is today. Additionally, it would be bizarre for him to go back to the very people who ruined his life and act as though nothing happened. It would be too painful and would just perpetuate/excuse what they've done. 

 

On that note, as I've reiterated, I don't agree with a lot of things that he's done. Naruto and Kakashi were damaged by the flawed Shinobi system, too, but they still have managed to lead less destructive lives and want to go about changing things in a less controversial way. But Sasuke's anger and pain are to be expected, nonetheless. 

[only Naruto]

Sasuke to me is a villain, and has been ever since he claimed to go after the innocents for the mistakes of others. Now he's doing the same thing again. He wants to kill Gaara, who by the way also had a pretty traumatizing childhood because of the system as well. What Sasuke is doing is no longer in the name of Uchiha. He is a villain and I refuse to believe otherwise.

i agree with  this . and james  if nagato was a villain doesnt that make sasuke a villain too . they both want to change the system but in the wrong way. and sasuke is ready to kill for it the same as nagato was. or they are different ?

 

[Shadow1275]

More of a Fraudian excuse Imo. Despite his tragic past Sasuke had everything he could have ever wanted. He had the respect of the village, a brother figure who cared for him, and a girl who loved him but he selfishly threw it all away. No excuse can forgive that.

Edited by Shadow1275, 23 September 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Good question man because Sasuke at least in my eyes is a villain I mean when you look at all that he has done and he has shown no remorse at all for what he has done or to the people he has hurt. And yet many still feel sorry for him when he does that want to make up for all the bad that he has done since he left the village I mean we have all seen what he has done and yet compered to all the others in Naruto all the fans just go nope Sasuke is allowed a good happy ending.

 

And sadly James it true I mean you look at both Nagato, Konan and even Obito they all get hate, despite saying we F**** up, but at least unlike Sasuke they in the end of their lives tried to fix what they had done which is good in my book and look what happened they are dead like so many other like Darth Vader now remind but didn't he let a whole Planet get blown up and killed a bunch of kids and got his own wife killed.

 

Plus Sasuke unlike many others in Naruto who were former villains, at least had something I mean lets all look back at part one everyone loved him but Sasuke wanted none of that and in the end left it all heck Naruto Sakura and Kakashi all tried to help him and he just spite in their faces, which angers me when it comes to Sasuke.

[BlazingDynamo]

Good question man because Sasuke at least in my eyes is a villain I mean when you look at all that he has done and he has shown no remorse at all for what he has done or to the people he has hurt. And yet many still feel sorry for him when he does that want to make up for all the bad that he has done since he left the village I mean we have all seen what he has done and yet compered to all the others in Naruto all the fans just go nope Sasuke is allowed a good happy ending.

 

And sadly James it true I mean you look at both Nagato, Konan and even Obito they all get hate, despite saying we F**** up, but at least unlike Sasuke they in the end of their lives tried to fix what they had done which is good in my book and look what happened they are dead like so many other like Darth Vader now remind but didn't he let a whole Planet get blown up and killed a bunch of kids and got his own wife killed.

 

Plus Sasuke unlike many others in Naruto who were former villains, at least had something I mean lets all look back at part one everyone loved him but Sasuke wanted none of that and in the end left it all heck Naruto Sakura and Kakashi all tried to help him and he just spite in their faces, which angers me when it comes to Sasuke.

SS fans say that there is still good in him.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

So while looking up the term Anti-Villain I came across this on Tv Trope.
 

That got me thinking, how much can you really attribute Sasuke's actions to the Uchiha Massacre? We all know he was scarred by it, but how much does it actually excuse? The Freudian Excuse it basically "you are doing all these things because your had a bad or rough childhood." Which actions are a product of that bad childhood and what are just inexcusable altogether?
 

I want to know where some draw the line.

 

It's a very good question. The Uchiha Massacre is a reason for Sasuke's actions, but if it is a justifiable excuse for those actions is another matter. Obviously, not everyone is going to react to stress and trauma is the same way. Some will rise above that kind of adversity and become stronger, better people for it and others will just keep falling deeper into bitterness and anger.

 

To some extent, I can understand why Sasuke would want to pursue vengeance -- his whole family was slaughtered when he was seven years old, that would have to be beyond horrible to go though. But, while I think his anger and desire for some kind of justice is understandable, his methods most certainly are not excusable. Wanting to burn Konoha to the ground crosses the line from seeking justice to wonton destruction and self satisfaction, and now he wants to kill all the Kages and take over so he can mold the shinobi world whatever way he sees fit. These kinds of actions, to me, can't be justified by what he went through as a child. It's just a fallback excuse.

 

 

Like I've said in the thread about the movie, I don't agree with his methods and ideals, but it would be unfair to punish him for many things that he's done, just the same, because he was pushed to this point. It would be like blaming someone and/or expecting someone to do something, although they've been deprived of something by no fault of their own and are unable to do so. It would be the ultimate cruelty for him to be punished by the very people who symbolize what made him what he is today.

 

 

I disagree. Whether Sasuke was pushed down this path he's on, he still had free choice and he should face consequences for those choices. Sasuke wasn't some puppet on strings, his actions being dictated for him regardless of his own will. The things he did, he did willing. Whatever mindset or feelings were driving him, they don't make him free from culpability.