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Who's the heroine? Sakura or Hinata?

Started by tricksie, Nov 17 2014 03:05 PM

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#121 Change

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 06:43 AM

 

Sakura and Hinata basically tied, each winning 5/10 of the popularity polls. I don't really think that shows she was a complete failure as a character, just Kishi's handling of her fell. From the pairing polls that I'd see before the Pain Arc, Sakura always showed up as being more popular to ship than Hinata. That's why I got the impression it was more the aftermath of the Pain Arc that hurt Sakura the most. But that could just be it hurt my opinion...since I definitely fell out of enjoying the manga during the beginning of the war arc.

 

Well tell me if you still think they're basically tied

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#122 Lelouch_91

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 09:03 AM

Really guys, do we really have to argue about this? Of course Sakura Haruno is the heroine.Kishi himself stated that.Hinata ending up with the main character doesn't automatically make her the heroine, for me,her representation in this manga is just that of a pairing fodder,without Naruto, I don't think she can make a story of her own. I don't know, her character is just so bland, no depth, and a heroine shouldn't be like that. Meh, maybe I'm just being bias, but really her behavior doesn't make her a heroine, more like an interesting one.Maybe if the genre is shoujo she could pass one.(and I really don't like shoujo heroines because you know mostly are clumsy, falls in love with the snob one,blah blah blah.So yeah for me, Sakura is the truè heroine no doubt.Hinata, well your only the heroine in The Last but not in the manga, nope.

                                 
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#123 rocci

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 10:45 AM

Well tell me if you still think they're basically tied

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http://meganezaru.tu...shimoneys#notes

I believe kishi popularity on character based on the latest wsj poll.

#124 Tendo Ryuken

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 11:28 AM

lol i cant believe this kind of debate on HnE of all place. i have to repeat (again) that sakura's role as the heroine has been accepted by almost all the readers. even by hardcore hinata fans. only few of sakura haters tried to deny this fact.

and from kishi's interviews, especially the recent one. he even said he was afraid of sakura might look ugly. and he has been trying to increase her popularity

im not saying im satisfied with his way of treating sakura. and i have a bunch of scene in my head to make sakura a better character. but at least i do know the author himself tried, even if he failed to a certain degree. he did never neglet her and thats enough for me

don't try this at home

#125 Nar123

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 12:20 PM

lol i cant believe this kind of debate on HnE of all place. i have to repeat (again) that sakura's role as the heroine has been accepted by almost all the readers. even by hardcore hinata fans. only few of sakura haters tried to deny this fact.

and from kishi's interviews, especially the recent one. he even said he was afraid of sakura might look ugly. and he has been trying to increase her popularity

im not saying im satisfied with his way of treating sakura. and i have a bunch of scene in my head to make sakura a better character. but at least i do know the author himself tried, even if he failed to a certain degree. he did never neglet her and thats enough for me

He just didn't know how to write female chars, completely failed in that aspect

If Sakura was "hated " in first place its his fault

Edited by Nar123, 14 December 2014 - 12:21 PM.

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#126 rocci

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 12:30 PM

He just didn't know how to write female chars, completely failed in that aspect

If Sakura was "hated " in first place its his fault

Sakura design is always about development.
Once kishi stop do that, kitten happen.

So kishi fault.

#127 Change

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 04:19 PM

I believe kishi popularity on character based on the latest wsj poll.

That's like 4 or 5 years old, it's so kittening outdated and that's the only time Hinata passed Sakura(not by much too)

He's a complete idiot either kittening way 


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#128 Fanwoman

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 05:09 PM

lol i cant believe this kind of debate on HnE of all place. i have to repeat (again) that sakura's role as the heroine has been accepted by almost all the readers. even by hardcore hinata fans. only few of sakura haters tried to deny this fact.

and from kishi's interviews, especially the recent one. he even said he was afraid of sakura might look ugly. and he has been trying to increase her popularity

im not saying im satisfied with his way of treating sakura. and i have a bunch of scene in my head to make sakura a better character. but at least i do know the author himself tried, even if he failed to a certain degree. he did never neglet her and thats enough for me

 

Well, my argument wasn't whether or not Sakura is the heroine--clearly her growth, no matter how retconed in the end, and participation were the most vital of all the gals--but whether or not the growing preference for moe heroines in shonen manga and Hinata's popularity played a role in NaruHina happening.

 

As to the Kishimoto quote you mention, the version I have access to says:

 

"Kishi is troubled by Sakura’s popularity among the readers. While he was drawing covers, it was easy drawing Naruto and Sasuke, but for Sakura Kishi have to spend more time re-drawing and adjusting, worrying that he might draw her ugly. Sakura’s family is not revealed because of popularity reasons, but Hinata with low number of appearances were consistently popular with the readers, Kishi once had the idea to change Hinata to the heroine."

 

This supports my theory that Hinata's popularity was a reason NaruHina happened. It also, sadly, suggests Kishimoto's only interest in developing Sakura was superficial--to keep her from being ugly. If he cared about her character growth, he would have included her parents, but he didn't, because he didn't want to improve her overall character appeal. It seems an intentional oversight that, with two teammates (three, if you count Sai) who are orphans, her parents are never involved. We meet at least one parent of nearly every other Rookie. Why not Sakura's, the heroine's? To keep her from being too popular.

 

Since no one else seems to want to discuss externals influences and larger trends, like the diminished popularity of characters like Sakura, I'll drop it, but I still think it is a factor worth considering.

 

 

 

Here you go :3 http://bleach.wikia....opularity_polls  The most recent character poll is the 4th.

 

 

Out of those I'm only familiar with Blue Exorcist and Magi. Magi doesn't have a moe lead, just a serious-type girl lead. Morgiana displays both cute and tsuntsun qualities (like when she got ticked off over Alibaba going to a brothel and created an earthquake).

 

 

He does seem pretty easy to influence. I'd hope most mangaka wouldn't behave like he did and be willing to give up on a character due to popularity. It's pretty disappointing Kishimoto turned out to be this flaky. As shown with Rukai's popularity, a competent writer can make a character lovable, regardless of the trope they may or may not fall in. This is why I can't simply blame it on the 'tsundere'. I blame it on Kishimoto.

 

Sakura and Hinata basically tied, each winning 5/10 of the popularity polls. I don't really think that shows she was a complete failure as a character, just Kishi's handling of her fell. From the pairing polls that I'd see before the Pain Arc, Sakura always showed up as being more popular to ship than Hinata. That's why I got the impression it was more the aftermath of the Pain Arc that hurt Sakura the most. But that could just be it hurt my opinion...since I definitely fell out of enjoying the manga during the beginning of the war arc.

 

 

From what members on this site have said, the movie has been in the works for 2 years. Which means everything in the past 2 years was done with Kishi knowing the end pairings. His new excuse is that NS was a red herring all along...though I'm not sure I buy that. If it is true the movie was being worked on for that amount of time, it's likely that the CPR scene and even moments before were done with Kishimoto already knowing NH was going to happen.

 

Not to mention Neji died for NH, and even that took place before the CPR scene.

 

Thanks for the link! Although you were holding out--the most popular was Hitsugaya! LOL Either way, how cool for Rukia.

 

It's true, Morgiana has the ability to express her anger, but her subdued emotions of all kinds make her more moe than not. The same can be said of Akatsuki in "Log Horizon." Maybe they're hybrids?

 

Anyway, I hadn't realized the movie had been in the works for two years. Then again, just because it started so long ago doesn't mean they knew what would happen from start to finish so long ago. Still, how disappointing. I'm having trouble finding when the "Is she your girlfriend?" scene was written, but Neji's death would have been about two years ago in the manga. In the recent interview, Kishimoto actually says he let Neji die so Hinata could be closer to Naruto. If I were a big Neji fan, I would be seriously peeved. Sigh.

 

But this thread is supposed to question who's the heroine and why.

 

I absolutely think NaruHina happening has everything to do with Kishimoto and his being influenced by external pressures, pressures which other writers would disregard in preference of staying true to their characters instead of bending to the will of trends. It's becoming more and more difficult to believe Kishimoto ever had a cohesive, determined vision for any of the characters other than Naruto and Sasuke.

 

After all, in the same interview as mentioned above, Kishimoto apparently said:

 

"Kakashi got more popular than Naruto so he had to decrease his appearance."

 

Yeah, popularity having a hand in Kishimoto's decisions is difficult to deny.

 

Of course, NaruHina happening does not make Hinata the heroine--the end would have panned out the same with or without her in the story, since any number of other characters could have said to Naruto what she did when Neji died.


#129 tricksie

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 06:15 PM

 

 

After all, in the same interview as mentioned above, Kishimoto apparently said:

 

"Kakashi got more popular than Naruto so he had to decrease his appearance."

 

Yeah, popularity having a hand in Kishimoto's decisions is difficult to deny.

 

Of course, NaruHina happening does not make Hinata the heroine--the end would have panned out the same with or without her in the story, since any number of other characters could have said to Naruto what she did when Neji died.

 

So.... On the one hand, Hinata's popularity is used to justify pushing he into the spotlight and dismantling the themes of the plot. On the other hand, Kakashi's popularity sentences him to a relative obscurity.

 

You know, the more Kishimoto gives out interviews...the more I think he's just full of crap. At some point he stopped being invested in the plot and turned it into a fan-driven manga. That's about like putting up polls on fanfics to see what direction it should go. Looks like the most votes came in for NH!!  :zaru:


#130 alexander

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 06:27 PM

 

So.... On the one hand, Hinata's popularity is used to justify pushing he into the spotlight and dismantling the themes of the plot. On the other hand, Kakashi's popularity sentences him to a relative obscurity.

 

You know, the more Kishimoto gives out interviews...the more I think he's just full of crap. At some point he stopped being invested in the plot and turned it into a fan-driven manga. That's about like putting up polls on fanfics to see what direction it should go. Looks like the most votes came in for NH!!  :zaru:

 

This reminds me of the Bakuman manga. There was an chapter were the protagonists were writing the next chapter for their manga and then they decide to add suggestions from fan messages of what they wanted to see in the series. When their editor readed the summary, he was like "this is crap, do it all over again". This is such an deadly mistake, the last thing an author can do is let the fans dictate how the story goes. 


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#131 Awes9

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 08:39 PM

Hinata is the new heroine for the upcoming part 3 because he tought she was more popular when she's only more popular for SP and the morons working there, Kishi has been fooled and he doesn't even realize it. Either way a writer should never let popularity dictates the story.

#132 Nar123

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 09:05 PM

Hinata is the new heroine for the upcoming part 3 because he tought she was more popular when she's only more popular for SP and the morons working there, Kishi has been fooled and he doesn't even realize it. Either way a writer should never let popularity dictates the story.

Nah, it will be salad


Edited by Nar123, 14 December 2014 - 09:06 PM.

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#133 rocci

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 09:57 PM

That's like 4 or 5 years old, it's so kittening outdated and that's the only time Hinata passed Sakura(not by much too)
He's a complete idiot either kittening way 

And that's the year the assistant said kishi doesn't has a heroine in this manga.
Popularity poll is serious business for jump.
I already make connection happen between canonization of nh due to Hinata rise of popularity and sakura poor reception of her confession.
And kishi doesn't fix it.

@awes
Salad gonna be the new heroine. She's a combination of sakura with sasuke aspect.

Edited by rocci, 14 December 2014 - 09:59 PM.

#134 Awes9

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 10:16 PM

And that's the year the assistant said kishi doesn't has a heroine in this manga.
Popularity poll is serious business for jump.
I already make connection happen between canonization of nh due to Hinata rise of popularity and sakura poor reception of her confession.
And kishi doesn't fix it.

@awes
Salad gonna be the new heroine. She's a combination of sakura with sasuke aspect.

 

 

Nah, it will be salad

Ha yeah forget about her but it all depends if she's popular enough, maybe if there's a big titted stalker character in the background who is more popular she will lose her status of heroine. I still think Hinata will have a more prominent role.


#135 Change

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 10:32 PM

And that's the year the assistant said kishi doesn't has a heroine in this manga.
Popularity poll is serious business for jump.
I already make connection happen between canonization of nh due to Hinata rise of popularity and sakura poor reception of her confession.
And kishi doesn't fix it.

@awes
Salad gonna be the new heroine. She's a combination of sakura with sasuke aspect.

Her rise was only once, like what it is so hard about that

After that she dropped, again this doesn't make any sense no matter how you try to make any sense of this

You just don't look at one poll and then have a conclusion, it doesn't work like that


Edited by TheMagicConch, 14 December 2014 - 10:38 PM.

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#136 rocci

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 10:48 PM

@magicconch
Sadly, it work like that. This is weekly shonen jump. And kishi doesn't has a ball to do the right thing.

@awes9
She's the title character wife and next protagonist mother, so she will have a role. But it only goes for first chapter, after that it will shift to burito and his relationship with naruto. Along with naruto wanking. The same will happen with sakura.

#137 Change

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 11:09 PM

@magicconch
Sadly, it work like that. This is weekly shonen jump. And kishi doesn't has a ball to do the right thing.

@awes9
She's the title character wife and next protagonist mother, so she will have a role. But it only goes for first chapter, after that it will shift to burito and his relationship with naruto. Along with naruto wanking. The same will happen with sakura.

What

Again this doesn't make sense, no matter who you are or what you do, you can't just go with one poll and have a conclusion

But you're right he has no balls, because he didn't see for himself who was really popular or not, he's most liely surrounded by retared otaku fans who deceived him 


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#138 rocci

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 11:12 PM

What
Again this doesn't make sense, no matter who you are or what you do, you can't just go with one poll and have a conclusion
But you're right he has no balls, because he didn't see for himself who was really popular or not, he's most liely surrounded by retared otaku fans who deceived him 

It doesn't need to make sense, but that's how shonen jump work.
Why do you think many new series get axed? Because the poor reception in weekly rating.

#139 Aizen-Sama

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 11:28 PM

Sakura isn't hated because she's a tsundere. She's hated because a lot of people see her as a spoiled selfish brat who's hot for the rival but is also the main character's love interest. She kittens up naruhina and sasunaru yaoi and also falls into the damsel in distress/pairing fodder trope unfortunately (mostly in part 1) She has proved herself to be more than a love interest but fans still hate her for being in the middle of such a huge pairing war.
There are many reasons for the Sakura hate. None of them are logical or justifiable. It's based on emotion and people's tastes and whims.

Edited by Aizen-Sama, 14 December 2014 - 11:31 PM.

#140 Change

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 01:59 AM

It doesn't need to make sense, but that's how shonen jump work.
Why do you think many new series get axed? Because the poor reception in weekly rating.

Weekly rating means they check more than once

That poll only happened once

Ugh, just forget everything, they make no type of kittening sense 


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