144 replies to this topic

[shisui]

Good for you. I think you've interpreted it exactly Kishimoto hoped. The manga ending must have been very satisfying for you.

 

The manga ending wasn't satisfying since it left many things to explain, but there is no point in making crazy theories that don't fit what was written. Why would you think Sakura is a failure or unhappy in chapter 700? Do you really think Kishi would have wrote such a story?

 

Sasuke's is on a 'mission?' Where'd you get that from? When he said he was leaving the village because he still had unanswered questions and had sins he needed to atone for? It's a personal quest. Nothing at all to do with the village. In fact there are no assurances he even cares about Konoha outside of his truce with Naruto. And Sakura is a single parent. That is what is explicitly shown. Sasuke is gone. He's not at Naruto's wedding, he's not there years later in the epilogue. 

 

Sasuke told Sakura that he'd come back for her when he was finished with his trip. You really think it's understandable that Sasuke would come back, make her pregnant and then leave for large amounts of time (or not be there at all)? Sasuke, who was big on family, and who considers Sakura (and Sarada) his family? Sasuke, who was genuinely sorry for making Sakura go through what he put her through? Sasuke, who said he needed to redeem himself before doing whatever he promised to his friends?

 

It is so strange to me that people justify this ending, which is the farthest stretch from the character Sakura had developed into, instead of looking at why, out of all the choices that Sakura could have been portrayed, that she was shown as cleaning house? I'll say it again, it was to neutralize her character so Hinata could be the heroine.

 

The ending was very rushed but that has nothing to do with your claims that Sakura's a housewife or that Sasuke is an absent father.

 

You would have complained if Sakura was the one on the cemetery or the one serving tea to someone.

 

Let me repeat what I said earlier: If you were to construct a scenario that would best marginalize and undermine Sakura's power, then it would look like Kishimoto's ending.

 

It's said that the times are different. Nobody is doing any mission besides maybe Sasuke. Sakura has her yin seal too. There is no marginalization.

 

Don't waste my time with this drivel about Sakura meeting her goals. Sasuke tried to kill her twice, and there was absolutely no redemption for him or explanation for her love. It was all a set up for the movie.

 

But believe what you want. I think you are just the fan Kishimoto is looking for. 

 

You don't get to say to stop wasting your time when you spend none answering.

 

 

I'm sure the "single mother" is figurative, but it's a valid point. Clearly Salada misses her father because he is often absent.

 

That is not the case. Kishi made Sarada understand Bolt, who has his father in the village all the time. It's the parents being busy with the new era.
 

As to Sakura dusting not being evidence of her being a housewife--nonsense. This is the last time we see her. If we were meant to think she was still working as a doctor in the hospital or whatever she might do in a peaceful world, it could have been shown. It wasn't. This is intentional. We know all we need to about Lee from a single panel. Sakura had many, but we're supposed to assume she's more than they portray? Does that mean Temari and Hinata just happen to be off from work in the afternoon, too? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

 

What's so different between Sakura still having her yin seal and Lee been shown training?

 

These gals could have been shown doing any number of other things, but they weren't. There's no reason, no even Sakura's yin seal, to assume they're more than what they appeared--housewives. After all, Tsunade had her seal when she was nothing but a drunk gambler. Having the power doesn't mean you use it.

 

Tsunade said she had been developing the yin seal while she was a drunk gambler though. Even if she wasn't doing missions and was somewhat rusty because of it, she was still a ninja and she still behaved like a ninja.

 

 

And it is true, considering Sakura also wanted to support Naruto's dream to be Hokage, yet we don't even see that, or a resolution, a PROPER one, of her feelings for him, just the fact that he's with Hinata so by proxy, she's gotta be with Sasuke for some dumb reason. =/

 

Sakura said she'd protect his dream, but Naruto is already Hokage in 700.

 

 

 

Multiple ways. The most obvious being that she plays no real role in bringing Sasuke back. Naruto does that all on his own. This was Sakura's stated goal at the end of part 1 (for her and Naruto to bring Sasuke back together) and she never delivers. She heals Sasuke, but Naruto had already brought him back to the life side, so it didn't matter (not to mention that Naruto somehow forgot about his new superior healing powers).

 

When Sasuke thinks back on his life on chapter 698, he purposelly says that Naruto wasn't enough and he only changed when they were part of team 7. If Sakura hadn't gone to the Valley of the End and healed him, despite him being a huge kitten to her, he would have died. Sasuke apologises to Sakura and promises to come back to her. She's important to him.

 

But that's just a surface level issue. The real issue is that she doesn't develop and never justifies her presence in this manga. You say romance isn't the point of Sakura's. I agree with this, but what is the point? What does Sakura bring to the table?

 

Is this and everything that come after a serious question and a serious commentary?

 

 

It's not so much that she's cleaning her house; it's that this is all we see her doing and really all we have to go by. If she's revealed to be doing more than that later on, that's great, but given Kishi's treatment of women in general throughout this manga, I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Sakura is shown on one page. There's more to her life that one page.

 

Oh, you're saying that Kishi's treatment of women is kitten? That's cool, but why is Sakura the only one that gets to be bashed then?

 

Okay, lets think about that. Why was this her goal? Can you answer that by citing the manga and without speculation? Also, how did she achieve her goal? Sasuke simply gives her the "ultimate expression of love" all of the sudden. She doesn't lift a finger to make it happen. Would you be satisfied if Naruto went from a nobody to being hokage instantly without him having to do anything of substance?

 

Sakura's goal is Sasuke, helping and protecting her teammates. She did all of them.

 

And yeah, Sakura did fail all right. She failed to bring Sasuke back with Naruto.This was her stated goal and drove much of the plot in part 2. Naruto did it on his own. All Sakura did was cry, get fodderized by genjutsu and then come back and keep appearances after Naruto did all the work.

 

When Sasuke thinks back on his life on chapter 698, he purposelly says that Naruto wasn't enough and he only changed when they were part of team 7. If Sakura hadn't gone to the Valley of the End and healed him, despite him being a huge kitten to her, he would have died. Sasuke apologises to Sakura and promises to come back to her. She's important to him.
 

One could only hope.

Somehow, I doubt you're being sincere.

[Miss Soupy]

@shishui

 

Your arguments seem to be done in favor of the author and the assumption that Kishi would/wouldn't write a certain thing. Yet for most people, their trust in Kishi is non-existent, since they feel he failed as a writer. Saying 'Kishi wouldn't write Sakura just a housewife' led to the assumption for you that she must not be just a housewife. The problem is that...it's the final chapter. It's Kishi's chance to send a message about how the main team ended up. The message he sent was largely that ninja weren't needed anymore. Since this thread is about Hinata vs Sakura...Sakura is specifically brought up as a disappointment. I don't think that most people reading Naruto believed that the ending would mean the extinction of ninja. Thus...it's a disappointment to see the ninjas we followed...not being ninjas anymore.

 

Sakura and Hinata were both pairing fodder, given what we actually saw of their future. Kishi certainly had every opportunity to show Sasuke attentive to his daughter, his wife, but he never showed us that. Believing he is a family man is therefore an assumption. Kishi, as the writer, held the responsibility to show us - not to leave it up for a (hopefully) positive assumption by readers. You can debate whether or not Sakura was still a ninja in the ending - and that's entirely the problem. We don't know. All we know is there isn't much for ninja to do, and Kishi chose for her final scene to be dusting. I don't blame people for being disappointed about that. There isn't anything inspiring about that final scene with her.

[ThroughWithLove]

When Sasuke thinks back on his life on chapter 698, he purposelly says that Naruto wasn't enough and he only changed when they were part of team 7. If Sakura hadn't gone to the Valley of the End and healed him, despite him being a huge a**hole to her, he would have died. Sasuke apologises to Sakura and promises to come back to her. She's important to him.

 

 

Right, so at the end of part one, Sakura could've pretty much said "Next time, you'll fight Sasuke on  your own while I cry and get knocked out miles away, you'll get him to change his mind on your own and if the two of you just so happen to be mortally wounded for some reason, I'll heal you both as good as new!"

 

As for the team 7 comment, Sasuke described them as a family. He was not, however, discussing why he gave up on his evil plan. Really, the entire chapter is about him and Naruto's bond. Sasuke admits defeat after seeing that Naruto will not give up. He says nothing about Sakura. I'm sorry, but there's really no way to interpret his words as both him and Sakura bringing Sasuke back. That was entirely Naruto. Sakura gets props for healing them, but the real work was already done. It's like saying two friends worked together to fundraise a feed-the-homeless event, even though friend-A was the only one to got out and fundraised all the money whereas friend B simply to deposit the fundraising check into the homeless event's account. Sure, I guess the homeless event wouldn't receive the money without the check being deposited, but it's a pretty big stretch to say the fundraising was a joint effort.

 

Here's the thing. Sakura doesn't even need to go mano-y-mano with her Sasuke in order to fulfill her promise. Had she said anything to make him conflicted about his choices and set him on the path to making him see the error of his ways (only for Sasuke to later comment on it after the fight), that would've worked too.

 

 

Is this and everything that come after a serious question and a serious commentary?

 

 

Of course it is. Sakura's purpose to the overall story is a pretty common query made even more common by this ending. Outside the NS/SS base, she tends to be regarded as useless.

 

 

Oh, you're saying that Kishi's treatment of women is kitten? That's cool, but why is Sakura the only one that gets to be bashed then?

 

 

 

Sakura is the only one I'm bashing here because she is the character your comments pertain to. And yes, I'm saying Kishi has a sh-tty view on women. Unless you care to defend his belief that a woman is terrible for moving on and falling in love with someone else, I don't see anything to debate on that front.

 

 

Sasuke apologises to Sakura and promises to come back to her. She's important to him.

 

 

You're welcome to believe that, but I for one have a pretty good memory of events leading up to Sasuke apologizing. For example, I recall him repeatedly telling Naruto that Naruto was his only friend. I recall him showing no hesitation to try and kill Sakura on two separate occassions. I recall him bashing and belittling Sakura after the IT was set into effect. I recall him flat out telling Kakashi that there was no reason for him to love Sakura (or vice versa) and recall seeing no one offer a counter-argument to this (as if the author himself is admitting the problem with her character). You're right in that we're eventually told Sakura is important to him, but in light the aforementioned occurences, there's no transition to him having this belief. It's as if his characteristics were instantly rewritten.

 

 

 

Sakura's goal is Sasuke, helping and protecting her teammates. She did all of them.

 

 

I get that. What I asked you was why Sasuke was her goal and how she achieved him? Do you know? And if you do know, can you inform us without speculating and by citing the manga? If not, I have no choice but to stand by everything I've said about her.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 08 December 2014 - 11:40 PM.

[Fanwoman]

 

Not gonna argue that moe girls aren't popular. But I'm not sure the examples you are using fit. Hinata type of moe girl is one that is basically absent and not useful when it comes to the plot. You give the example of Shiemi from Blue Exorcist as a Hinata type of girl. Except, Shiemi is not hidden in the background with only 'cute' to her name. She actively supports the hero. I'd compare Shiemi to Orihime from bleach, both bubbly types. I don't find either girl like Hinata as far as their importance in the manga nor their nature.

 

I'd also add the Rukia is by far the most popular female in bleach, yet she isn't a moe type either. I think Sakura became less popular not because she is tsundere, but because Kishi was all over the place with handling her in the final stretch of the manga. It's not a shifting in popularity type, its just bad portrayal of a character. He dropped her development after the Pain Arc to make her look bad. Or that's what it looks like to me.

 

Oh, I never said Shiemi is the same as Hinata--heaven forbid--I said she's the same character type as Hinata. So is Orihime. They are all of them moe. Of course, the other two are much better characters because they are written by people who can write female characters/aren't misogynists.

 

My point is, Shiemi is moe, and she is the leading female character in "Blue Exorcist." Why? Because when the series started, moe had ousted tsundere in popularity.

 

Fifteen years ago, when "Naruto" began, the leading ladies of shonen were usually tsundere, like Sakura.

 

"Bleach" began before moe became as popular as it is now, which is why Rukia was once the leading gal and is tsundere.

 

Hinata is not useful to the plot because she was never supposed to be the heroine (and Kishimoto can't/won't write female characters well), not because she is moe.

Of course, Kishimoto's poor handling of Sakura is a factor, but the rise in popularity of moe is the sort of reasoning an editor would use to influence a writer to shift the focus from a tsundere leading lady to a moe one. If tsundere characters were still at the height of popularity, even Sakura's uneven portrayal probably wouldn't have kept her from being the leading lady.

[Narufan85]

What an indictment of Kishi and his ability to write women if Sakura's only goal is Sasuke. It makes her look pathetic.

[ThroughWithLove]

What an indictment of Kishi and his ability to write women if Sakura's only goal is Sasuke. It makes her look pathetic.

 

If there were an actual reason for it, as in something that made her character more compelling, it wouldn't be pathetic. But there is no reason. Everyone in the manga even acknowledges that there's no reason. Even worse, Sakura isn't distinguishable from the rest of the rabid fangirls. Imagine if we were always told that Naruto wanted to be Hokage without actually knowing that it was because he wanted everyone to acknowledge him. Imagine if we were told Sasuke wanted to avenge the Uchiha clan without ever knowing that Sasuke was an Uchiha or that his brother elimatined the clan. In light of Sakura acting getting Sasuke without epithany or grand realization whatsoever, it makes her a piss poor character and I'm speaking as one who used to go out of his way to defend her.

 

The thing about Sakura is that she always had the potential to blossom into something wonderful. What had captured me about her was that her developments with Naruto and her strong desire to become strong without needing to be rescued seemed to  point in this direction. And so throughout the series, seeds were planted and water was carefully sprinkled.  I waited for her to bloom fom chapter 3 to chapter 698 (though I lost a lot of faith in chapter 693). The ground above where her seeds had been planted slowly changed shape and just as it looked like something would sprout out of the ground, Kishi took his foot and kicked away the seeds and the soil and it was all gone.

 

Until now, I never saw Sakura as a trophy to be won or mere parring fodder. I saw her as a necessary device to illustrate the many great themes this series had. To tie things together and bring everything full circle. Alas, that day never came. Everything that was being set up has been dashed to pieces, leaving nothing but a hollow caricture that exist for no other reason than for the sake of existing. Sasuke could have just easily picked Karin or Ino, godforbid, and NOTHING would change.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 09 December 2014 - 02:35 AM.

[rocci]

 
If there were an actual reason for it, as in something that made her character more compelling, it wouldn't be pathetic. But there is no reason. Everyone in the manga even acknowledges that there's no reason. Even worse, Sakura isn't distinguishable from the rest of the rabid fangirls. Imagine if we were always told that Naruto wanted to be Hokage without actually knowing that it was because he wanted everyone to acknowledge him. Imagine if we were told Sasuke wanted to avenge the Uchiha clan without ever knowing that Sasuke was an Uchiha or that his brother elimatined the clan. In light of Sakura acting getting Sasuke without epithany or grand realization whatsoever, it makes her a piss poor character and I'm speaking as one who used to go out of his way to defend her.
 
The thing about Sakura is that she always had the potential to blossom into something wonderful. What had captured me about her was that her developments with Naruto and her strong desire to become strong without needing to be rescued seemed to  point in this direction. And so throughout the series, seeds were planted and water was carefully sprinkled.  I waited for her to bloom fom chapter 3 to chapter 698 (though I lost a lot of faith in chapter 693). The ground above where her seeds had been planted slowly changed shape and just as it looked like something would sprout out of the ground, Kishi took his foot and kicked away the seeds and the soil and it was all gone.
 
Until now, I never saw Sakura as a trophy to be won or mere parring fodder. I saw her as a necessary device to illustrate the many great themes this series had. To tie things together and bring everything full circle. Alas, that day never came. Everything that was being set up has been dashed to pieces, leaving nothing but a hollow caricture that exist for no other reason than for the sake of existing. Sasuke could have just easily picked Karin or Ino, godforbid, and NOTHING would change.

Well said.
Just like the manga. Another waste potential.
Sakura is romance. Too bad kishi doesn't know/want to write romance.
Or he just bad on it.

Edited by rocci, 09 December 2014 - 02:38 AM.

[Miss Soupy]

 

Of course, Kishimoto's poor handling of Sakura is a factor, but the rise in popularity of moe is the sort of reasoning an editor would use to influence a writer to shift the focus from a tsundere leading lady to a moe one. If tsundere characters were still at the height of popularity, even Sakura's uneven portrayal probably wouldn't have kept her from being the leading lady.

 

But can you explain how Rukia remains the most popular in Bleach if that's truly the trend? She was even more popular than Ichigo in the last character poll. Do you have examples of this happening in other manga where an editor shifted the heroine for that reason? It seems to me that Sakura never had a problem with popularity until recently when Kishimoto started writing her making a false confession to the hero and then being shamed for it.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

But can you explain how Rukia remains the most popular in Bleach if that's truly the trend? She was even more popular than Ichigo in the last character poll. Do you have examples of this happening in other manga where an editor shifted the heroine for that reason? It seems to me that Sakura never had a problem with popularity until recently when Kishimoto started writing her making a false confession to the hero and then being shamed for it.

 

Interesting. You don't suppose Kishi intentionally started derailing her character in an effort to make Hinata look better by contrast?

[Miss Soupy]

 

Interesting. You don't suppose Kishi intentionally started derailing her character in an effort to make Hinata look better by contrast?

 

I have no clue if it was intentional. I'd hope not, but at the same time that false confession both seemed out of place storywise and out of character for Sakura. I mean, she had just promised herself not to make any more mistakes. She promptly marches off to...make a huge one?

 

It's kind of my thought that the Hinata confession was Kishi testing the waters with NH, and around there he decided to go that direction. That's just my opinion though XD I really have no clue.

[Codus N]

That's exactly what I thought about the confession if you look at the ending right now. So yeah, I think it was around that time Kishi decided on NH. It's especially more obvious when you look at the weak attempts at NS ship tease afterwards.

[Nar123]

That's exactly what I thought about the confession if you look at the ending right now. So yeah, I think it was around that time Kishi decided on NH. It's especially more obvious when you look at the weak attempts at NS ship tease afterwards.

Instead of teasing us with the paralallels and other things he should've focused in his canon pairings...

[Nami]

 

I have no clue if it was intentional. I'd hope not, but at the same time that false confession both seemed out of place storywise and out of character for Sakura. I mean, she had just promised herself not to make any more mistakes. She promptly marches off to...make a huge one?

 

It's kind of my thought that the Hinata confession was Kishi testing the waters with NH, and around there he decided to go that direction. That's just my opinion though XD I really have no clue.

 

Really, that soon? I really don't know, if he had really decided to go with NH at the time of the nocfession, he would've had more than enough time to do some development between the two, but all they got was basically a hand-hold. I'm talking about mutual interactions here, not Hinata's Naruto-kunning with no sense or purpose. And some pretty big NS-teases came after that so it's so hard to believe.

[Narufan85]

 

If there were an actual reason for it, as in something that made her character more compelling, it wouldn't be pathetic. But there is no reason. Everyone in the manga even acknowledges that there's no reason. Even worse, Sakura isn't distinguishable from the rest of the rabid fangirls. Imagine if we were always told that Naruto wanted to be Hokage without actually knowing that it was because he wanted everyone to acknowledge him. Imagine if we were told Sasuke wanted to avenge the Uchiha clan without ever knowing that Sasuke was an Uchiha or that his brother elimatined the clan. In light of Sakura acting getting Sasuke without epithany or grand realization whatsoever, it makes her a piss poor character and I'm speaking as one who used to go out of his way to defend her.

 

The thing about Sakura is that she always had the potential to blossom into something wonderful. What had captured me about her was that her developments with Naruto and her strong desire to become strong without needing to be rescued seemed to  point in this direction. And so throughout the series, seeds were planted and water was carefully sprinkled.  I waited for her to bloom fom chapter 3 to chapter 698 (though I lost a lot of faith in chapter 693). The ground above where her seeds had been planted slowly changed shape and just as it looked like something would sprout out of the ground, Kishi took his foot and kicked away the seeds and the soil and it was all gone.

 

Until now, I never saw Sakura as a trophy to be won or mere parring fodder. I saw her as a necessary device to illustrate the many great themes this series had. To tie things together and bring everything full circle. Alas, that day never came. Everything that was being set up has been dashed to pieces, leaving nothing but a hollow caricture that exist for no other reason than for the sake of existing. Sasuke could have just easily picked Karin or Ino, godforbid, and NOTHING would change.

 

I suppose I worded that poorly. Shisui's posts seem to indicate that Sakura's only goal was Sasuke's affections. You are correct, when framed the way it was in the manga, with no real explanation, then it is pathetic. It's more disappointing because, while her love for Sasuke is never explained, what is explained is her growing desire/goal to stand beside Naruto and help him in his quest to becoming Hokage. She does it at the chunnin exams, and especially during the CPR scene. So then, why isn't she shown helping Naruto achieve his dream in 699 or 700? That's a failure of achieving her goals.

[Miss Soupy]

 

Really, that soon? I really don't know, if he had really decided to go with NH at the time of the nocfession, he would've had more than enough time to do some development between the two, but all they got was basically a hand-hold. I'm talking about mutual interactions here, not Hinata's Naruto-kunning with no sense or purpose. And some pretty big NS-teases came after that so it's so hard to believe.

 

He had more than enough time to develop NH, that's true. I mean, Kishi's been saying he's known 'for a long time' or 'since the beginning' he planned NH. He always had time to develop them, he just didn't. I'm just not sure I buy he planned NH from the beginning...so when looking at when things fell apart (to me), the false confession stands out as something very odd to add at that point. Right after that Sakura started thinking about Sasuke again - revamping her pining towards him. Plus Neji died for NH XD Possibly Kishi thought, since the movie was in works, that would suffice for NH development.

 

Just seems like things started going wonky with the characters around that time and onward. Nothing really new happened for NS, as in, after Sai commented that Naruto loved her, that point seemed to have been dropped. Yes, NS continued to be teased, but by the end I was hoping for something more substantial. It just never happened.

 

But yeah, that's just my own speculation. It's hard to make sense of Kishi's thought process when he's saying a bunch of different things, some of which seem extremely rude towards his own fans.

[Aizen-Sama]

It's still Sakura. The most Hinata will be is the love interest (2nd love interest). She's only heroine in the Last.

[shisui]

Right, so at the end of part one, Sakura could've pretty much said "Next time, you'll fight Sasuke on  your own while I cry and get knocked out miles away, you'll get him to change his mind on your own and if the two of you just so happen to be mortally wounded for some reason, I'll heal you both as good as new!"
 
As for the team 7 comment, Sasuke described them as a family. He was not, however, discussing why he gave up on his evil plan. Really, the entire chapter is about him and Naruto's bond. Sasuke admits defeat after seeing that Naruto will not give up. He says nothing about Sakura. I'm sorry, but there's really no way to interpret his words as both him and Sakura bringing Sasuke back. That was entirely Naruto. Sakura gets props for healing them, but the real work was already done. It's like saying two friends worked together to fundraise a feed-the-homeless event, even though friend-A was the only one to got out and fundraised all the money whereas friend B simply to deposit the fundraising check into the homeless event's account. Sure, I guess the homeless event wouldn't receive the money without the check being deposited, but it's a pretty big stretch to say the fundraising was a joint effort.
 
Here's the thing. Sakura doesn't even need to go mano-y-mano with her Sasuke in order to fulfill her promise. Had she said anything to make him conflicted about his choices and set him on the path to making him see the error of his ways (only for Sasuke to later comment on it after the fight), that would've worked too.

 
Yeah, Sakura could have be that specific about what she'd do because she can see the future. You remember Naruto said he'd come back with Sasuke to Kakakashi, right? How did that turn out?
 
You're upset about how Sakura fulfilled her goals. I get that. However, she said she would help and that's what she did. She's an accomplished character.
 
Sasuke was being redeemed ever since he left Konoha. If he had never seen Team 7 as his family in the first place, he would have never had that final speech. If Itachi hadn't put doubts in his heart, Sasuke would have never gone to Konoha to ask the Hokage about the truth. If Hashirama had never lectured him on Konoha history, he wouldn't have joined the alliance either. I see no point in defending SS, but Sakura was a part of Sasuke's redemption too.
 

Of course it is. Sakura's purpose to the overall story is a pretty common query made even more common by this ending. Outside the NS/SS base, she tends to be regarded as useless.

Sakura is the only one I'm bashing here because she is the character your comments pertain to. And yes, I'm saying Kishi has a sh-tty view on women. Unless you care to defend his belief that a woman is terrible for moving on and falling in love with someone else, I don't see anything to debate on that front.

 
The majority of the cast is seen as useless by the fanbase. I see no reason to specify towards Sakura. I see no reason to call Sakura useless in this thread, which pits Hinata against her either. Hinata is beyond useless. Her biggest accomplishment is to strugle at 17 about doing the same technique her cousin perfectly managed to at 13.

 

You're welcome to believe that, but I for one have a pretty good memory of events leading up to Sasuke apologizing. For example, I recall him repeatedly telling Naruto that Naruto was his only friend. I recall him showing no hesitation to try and kill Sakura on two separate occassions. I recall him bashing and belittling Sakura after the IT was set into effect. I recall him flat out telling Kakashi that there was no reason for him to love Sakura (or vice versa) and recall seeing no one offer a counter-argument to this (as if the author himself is admitting the problem with her character). You're right in that we're eventually told Sakura is important to him, but in light the aforementioned occurences, there's no transition to him having this belief. It's as if his characteristics were instantly rewritten.

 

Sasuke also said in the beginning of Shippuden that he had no problems in Orochimaru taking over his body and we know how well that turned out. Sasuke says a lot of things.

 

I get that. What I asked you was why Sasuke was her goal and how she achieved him? Do you know? And if you do know, can you inform us without speculating and by citing the manga? If not, I have no choice but to stand by everything I've said about her.

 

Sasuke was Sakura's goal in the beginning because she likes him? She achieved getting him because he thought that she was his family, due to sharing a team with him and going through rough spots with him. We know she achieved it because she got that forehead poke, got thanked for her feelings once more, and then had a kid with him.

 

Naruto being Hokage, when he knows nothing about compromise, patience or politics, is a much bigger mystery.

[Aizen-Sama]

Lol Naruto being Hokage was always a mystery no offense. He just wanted to lead and protect the village but he lacked the smarts and know-how about politics that's required of a village leader. He didn't know about the reasons behind the Uchiha massacre until Itachi told him. I'm surprised his childhood dream stayed with him into adulthood.
I always thought he was too soft and naive to be Hokage also. According to Naruto..he wasn't worthy of being Hokage until he stopped Sasuke from going into the darkness..but that's Sasuke's choice and you can't stop someone from ruining their life. Naruto would be releasing criminals left and right lol.
Sorry if I offend Naruto fans but I sorta lost respect for him after the epilogue/Sasuke fight.

[Fanwoman]

 

But can you explain how Rukia remains the most popular in Bleach if that's truly the trend? She was even more popular than Ichigo in the last character poll. Do you have examples of this happening in other manga where an editor shifted the heroine for that reason? It seems to me that Sakura never had a problem with popularity until recently when Kishimoto started writing her making a false confession to the hero and then being shamed for it.

 

I wasn't aware Rukia was more popular than Inoue, let alone Ichigo. That's awesome--Please link me to that!

 

Naturally, I have a higher opinion of Tite compared to Kishimoto, since he writes such interesting females along with males, so I can't help but suppose he'd be more resistant to other people telling him to sidetrack main characters.

 

That said, the trend toward more prominent moe characters is evidenced in other shonen series, like "Blue Exorcist," "Pet Girl," "Log Horizon," "Magi," "Ald Noah Zero," "World Trigger," etc. Heck, in the series "Valvrave," the tsundere character was killed off in the first episode! This makes it a trend.

 

As to whether or not other writers have changed their leading lady to accommodate this trend, there aren't may other series that have lasted as long as "Naruto" through the transition from tsundere to moe. "Bleach," "One Piece" and "Detective Conan" would probably be the only ones, and, of those, only "Conan" includes a romantic preference for the leading character. Also, Kishimoto has repeatedly expressed a lack of interest in romantic themes, despite having multiple characters infatuated with other characters, so it's believable he could be persuaded to change his mind on the issue due to something as trivial as popularity.

 

Also, I have to disagree with your assumption that Sakura's popularity was fine until the confession. Yes, the confession may have reduced her popularity some, but I don't see how you can say she was particularly popular before that when she has been behind Hinata more often than not since the second poll.

 

http://naruto.wikia....opularity_Polls

 

Given all of the NaruSaku moments we had after the confession--especially the, "Is she your girlfriend?" line from Minato--my thinking is Kishimoto made his decision later. After all, if he had decided by confession, he wouldn't have made Mr. I Can Make Clones Like Nobody's Business not talk to Hinata about her almost dying for him/confession for months/over 100 chapters!

 

I think the decision to go with NaruHina came just before or during the CPR. Plot-wise, there was no getting around the CPR. Naruto getting the other half of Kurama was a plot point that had probably been planned out for ages. The end of that part of the story was the perfect for place for a sweet, poignant or funny NaruSaku moment, yet it was completely lacking--Ino patting Shikamaru and Choji on the back after confronting deadAsuma had more emotional impact than Naruto being revived while Sakura held his heart in her hand! Why? Because the decision had finally been made to go with NaruHina, so anything remotely NaruSaku had to be downplayed.

[Miss Soupy]

 

I wasn't aware Rukia was more popular than Inoue, let alone Ichigo. That's awesome--Please link me to that!

 

Here you go :3 http://bleach.wikia....opularity_polls  The most recent character poll is the 4th.

 

That said, the trend toward more prominent moe characters is evidenced in other shonen series, like "Blue Exorcist," "Pet Girl," "Log Horizon," "Magi," "Ald Noah Zero," "World Trigger," etc. Heck, in the series "Valvrave," the tsundere character was killed off in the first episode! This makes it a trend.

 

 

Out of those I'm only familiar with Blue Exorcist and Magi. Magi doesn't have a moe lead, just a serious-type girl lead. Morgiana displays both cute and tsuntsun qualities (like when she got ticked off over Alibaba going to a brothel and created an earthquake).

 

As to whether or not other writers have changed their leading lady to accommodate this trend, there aren't may other series that have lasted as long as "Naruto" through the transition from tsundere to moe. "Bleach," "One Piece" and "Detective Conan" would probably be the only ones, and, of those, only "Conan" includes a romantic preference for the leading character. Also, Kishimoto has repeatedly expressed a lack of interest in romantic themes, despite having multiple characters infatuated with other characters, so it's believable he could be persuaded to change his mind on the issue due to something as trivial as popularity.

 

 

He does seem pretty easy to influence. I'd hope most mangaka wouldn't behave like he did and be willing to give up on a character due to popularity. It's pretty disappointing Kishimoto turned out to be this flaky. As shown with Rukai's popularity, a competent writer can make a character lovable, regardless of the trope they may or may not fall in. This is why I can't simply blame it on the 'tsundere'. I blame it on Kishimoto.

 

Also, I have to disagree with your assumption that Sakura's popularity was fine until the confession. Yes, the confession may have reduced her popularity some, but I don't see how you can say she was particularly popular before that when she has been behind Hinata more often than not since the second poll.

 

http://naruto.wikia....opularity_Polls

 

 

Sakura and Hinata basically tied, each winning 5/10 of the popularity polls. I don't really think that shows she was a complete failure as a character, just Kishi's handling of her fell. From the pairing polls that I'd see before the Pain Arc, Sakura always showed up as being more popular to ship than Hinata. That's why I got the impression it was more the aftermath of the Pain Arc that hurt Sakura the most. But that could just be it hurt my opinion...since I definitely fell out of enjoying the manga during the beginning of the war arc.

 

Given all of the NaruSaku moments we had after the confession--especially the, "Is she your girlfriend?" line from Minato--my thinking is Kishimoto made his decision later. After all, if he had decided by confession, he wouldn't have made Mr. I Can Make Clones Like Nobody's Business not talk to Hinata about her almost dying for him/confession for months/over 100 chapters!

I think the decision to go with NaruHina came just before or during the CPR. Plot-wise, there was no getting around the CPR. Naruto getting the other half of Kurama was a plot point that had probably been planned out for ages. The end of that part of the story was the perfect for place for a sweet, poignant or funny NaruSaku moment, yet it was completely lacking--Ino patting Shikamaru and Choji on the back after confronting deadAsuma had more emotional impact than Naruto being revived while Sakura held his heart in her hand! Why? Because the decision had finally been made to go with NaruHina, so anything remotely NaruSaku had to be downplayed.

 

 

From what members on this site have said, the movie has been in the works for 2 years. Which means everything in the past 2 years was done with Kishi knowing the end pairings. His new excuse is that NS was a red herring all along...though I'm not sure I buy that. If it is true the movie was being worked on for that amount of time, it's likely that the CPR scene and even moments before were done with Kishimoto already knowing NH was going to happen.

 

Not to mention Neji died for NH, and even that took place before the CPR scene.