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486 and how it relates to the manga as a whole


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#1 deafdrum

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 11:33 PM

I apologize if I'm posting this too early, or if it would have been better if I posted in the 486 discussion thread, but I believe my ideas are broad enough to warrant a separate thread...not to mention I take quite a few, probably too many words to express them. sweatdrop.gif

Throughout the manga, Naruto has changed people through his words and actions. I believe we can actually see a consistency to his methods.

  • He relates to the character by sharing an experience similar to what primarily motivates that character
  • He explains how his situation was (or will be) resolved differently and why he's now a different person than the character or someone within that character's experience. The character also recalls someone from their experience that give similar words of wisdom.
  • He demonstrates his resolve through his fighting spirit


If we look at specific examples:

He relates to Neji because he was marked from birth and hindered through fate to forever be known as someone of "lower" status and ability. He explains that he ignored that fate through exceeding everyone's expectations and mastering a jutsu that was once his worst. Neji remembers the words of his father, who tells him to "live freely." He demonstrates that this is indeed true by defeating Neji with that very jutsu.

He relates to Gaara because he was hated for the demon that was put inside of him. He explains that he overcame the resulting loneliness by establishing bonds, rather than simply living for himself and loving himself. Gaara remembers the words of his uncle telling him what love is, but that idea is shattered by the subsequent assassination attempt. However Naruto demonstrates the strength this love gives him by successfully protecting one of his loved ones. wink.gif

The example I think is most significant comes in the Pain Arc. This is where the need arises for Naruto's method of changing people to extend from the individual to the ninja world as a whole by "breaking the chain of hatred" that has existed since before the nations were created. In this example, Naruto relates to Nagato because of the pain they both experienced through losing loved ones, and the resulting chain of hatred that is formed. Naruto explains he will find a way to permanently break that chain of hatred without killing innocent people and that he will never give up--words that Nagato once adopted as his own mantra through his experience with Jiraiya. At this point though, Nagato accepts his words on faith, and Naruto doesn't have to demonstrate.

However, I believe Naruto demonstrates later what it means for him as a ninja to break that chain of hatred. When he encounters an angry team from Cloud that approaches Konoha because Sasuke was believed to have captured Killer Bee, he diffuses a potentially volatile situation by uttering two very important words:

"Hit me."

Naruto lowers his guard and takes Karui's beatings without retaliating. Eventually, Karui is stopped by Omoi and Cloud agrees to cooperate with Konoha in their efforts to find Killer Bee. This act is significant, because it serves a twofold purpose: Naruto protects others by drawing the retaliation to himself, and he makes people realize the futility of revenge, thereby diffusing the hatred that caused it in the first place.

Now, Naruto faces his final challenge: Sasuke, the individual who has resisted his methods of change the most. Sasuke has already voiced his desire to destroy Konoha and avenge his clan, an act that would inevitably plunge the nations into turmoil and continue the chain of hatred. Naruto's already tried to relate to Sasuke's hatred and loneliness, but as Sasuke has made clear, their situations are too different. Naruto has tried to explain how he was able to overcome his hatred and loneliness through forming bonds, but Sasuke wants nothing to do with them. All that remains is the demonstration, for which Naruto, in this latest chapter, has laid down the gauntlet..magnificently, I might add smile.gif.

Naruto announces that he will fight Sasuke by himself, taking all of Sasuke's hatred upon his shoulders until it disappears, or until they both die. In doing so, he will seek to reconnect with an individual friend, protect his village, and break the chains of hatred that bind the world.

In seeking to reconnect to Sasuke, Naruto knows words are no longer enough, and the rest must be done through actions, or as Naruto puts it, "fists." That way, the two will be able to understand each other. In shouldering all of Sasuke's hatred, Naruto will better understand Sasuke and the pain that caused his hatred. At the same time, Sasuke will come to realize Naruto's resolve for protecting his bonds, and the hatred will disappear. I think Naruto relates this to his experience with Iruka because of what happened in chapter 1. Iruka could very well have hated Naruto for being the host of the demon that killed his parents, but because he was able to understand that Naruto was very much like him, an outcast with few friends, he instead developed a bond with him, even going so far as to protect him with his life.

Seeking to protect the village is pretty self-evident and, of course, nothing new for Naruto. Obviously, Sasuke won't have time to exact revenge on others while he's fighting Naruto.

In seeking to break the chains of hatred that bind the world, Naruto is once again taking on the role of a lightning rod of sorts, like his did with Kamui: absorbing Sasuke's hatred but returning none of his own, and not allowing anyone else the chance to retaliate either. Naruto's hope for Sasuke, that his hatred will disappear once they're able to understand each other, is reflective of Jiraiya's hope for the world, that he imparted to both Nagato and Naruto: that a day will come where everyone will understand each other.

In summary, Kishimoto does an excellent job of bringing the themes of the manga as well as Naruto's character, especially as it relates to Sasuke, full-circle. He has shown a continuous consistency that can be seen at numerous points and will surely bring an ending that is no less exciting and unpredictable, much like the title character smile.gif.

Any further thoughts or ideas are always appreciated, and thanks for reading.

#2 hergirlunknown

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:42 PM

QUOTE (deafdrum @ Mar 11 2010, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I apologize if I'm posting this too early, or if it would have been better if I posted in the 486 discussion thread, but I believe my ideas are broad enough to warrant a separate thread...not to mention I take quite a few, probably too many words to express them. sweatdrop.gif

Throughout the manga, Naruto has changed people through his words and actions. I believe we can actually see a consistency to his methods.

  • He relates to the character by sharing an experience similar to what primarily motivates that character
  • He explains how his situation was (or will be) resolved differently and why he's now a different person than the character or someone within that character's experience. The character also recalls someone from their experience that give similar words of wisdom.
  • He demonstrates his resolve through his fighting spirit


If we look at specific examples:

He relates to Neji because he was marked from birth and hindered through fate to forever be known as someone of "lower" status and ability. He explains that he ignored that fate through exceeding everyone's expectations and mastering a jutsu that was once his worst. Neji remembers the words of his father, who tells him to "live freely." He demonstrates that this is indeed true by defeating Neji with that very jutsu.

He relates to Gaara because he was hated for the demon that was put inside of him. He explains that he overcame the resulting loneliness by establishing bonds, rather than simply living for himself and loving himself. Gaara remembers the words of his uncle telling him what love is, but that idea is shattered by the subsequent assassination attempt. However Naruto demonstrates the strength this love gives him by successfully protecting one of his loved ones. wink.gif

The example I think is most significant comes in the Pain Arc. This is where the need arises for Naruto's method of changing people to extend from the individual to the ninja world as a whole by "breaking the chain of hatred" that has existed since before the nations were created. In this example, Naruto relates to Nagato because of the pain they both experienced through losing loved ones, and the resulting chain of hatred that is formed. Naruto explains he will find a way to permanently break that chain of hatred without killing innocent people and that he will never give up--words that Nagato once adopted as his own mantra through his experience with Jiraiya. At this point though, Nagato accepts his words on faith, and Naruto doesn't have to demonstrate.

However, I believe Naruto demonstrates later what it means for him as a ninja to break that chain of hatred. When he encounters an angry team from Cloud that approaches Konoha because Sasuke was believed to have captured Killer Bee, he diffuses a potentially volatile situation by uttering two very important words:

"Hit me."

Naruto lowers his guard and takes Karui's beatings without retaliating. Eventually, Karui is stopped by Omoi and Cloud agrees to cooperate with Konoha in their efforts to find Killer Bee. This act is significant, because it serves a twofold purpose: Naruto protects others by drawing the retaliation to himself, and he makes people realize the futility of revenge, thereby diffusing the hatred that caused it in the first place.

Now, Naruto faces his final challenge: Sasuke, the individual who has resisted his methods of change the most. Sasuke has already voiced his desire to destroy Konoha and avenge his clan, an act that would inevitably plunge the nations into turmoil and continue the chain of hatred. Naruto's already tried to relate to Sasuke's hatred and loneliness, but as Sasuke has made clear, their situations are too different. Naruto has tried to explain how he was able to overcome his hatred and loneliness through forming bonds, but Sasuke wants nothing to do with them. All that remains is the demonstration, for which Naruto, in this latest chapter, has laid down the gauntlet..magnificently, I might add smile.gif.

Naruto announces that he will fight Sasuke by himself, taking all of Sasuke's hatred upon his shoulders until it disappears, or until they both die. In doing so, he will seek to reconnect with an individual friend, protect his village, and break the chains of hatred that bind the world.

In seeking to reconnect to Sasuke, Naruto knows words are no longer enough, and the rest must be done through actions, or as Naruto puts it, "fists." That way, the two will be able to understand each other. In shouldering all of Sasuke's hatred, Naruto will better understand Sasuke and the pain that caused his hatred. At the same time, Sasuke will come to realize Naruto's resolve for protecting his bonds, and the hatred will disappear. I think Naruto relates this to his experience with Iruka because of what happened in chapter 1. Iruka could very well have hated Naruto for being the host of the demon that killed his parents, but because he was able to understand that Naruto was very much like him, an outcast with few friends, he instead developed a bond with him, even going so far as to protect him with his life.

Seeking to protect the village is pretty self-evident and, of course, nothing new for Naruto. Obviously, Sasuke won't have time to exact revenge on others while he's fighting Naruto.

In seeking to break the chains of hatred that bind the world, Naruto is once again taking on the role of a lightning rod of sorts, like his did with Kamui: absorbing Sasuke's hatred but returning none of his own, and not allowing anyone else the chance to retaliate either. Naruto's hope for Sasuke, that his hatred will disappear once they're able to understand each other, is reflective of Jiraiya's hope for the world, that he imparted to both Nagato and Naruto: that a day will come where everyone will understand each other.

In summary, Kishimoto does an excellent job of bringing the themes of the manga as well as Naruto's character, especially as it relates to Sasuke, full-circle. He has shown a continuous consistency that can be seen at numerous points and will surely bring an ending that is no less exciting and unpredictable, much like the title character smile.gif.

Any further thoughts or ideas are always appreciated, and thanks for reading.



Very well said and for this reason, I think no one has been able to respond to such a thorough piece. Anyways, I agree with each notion and it's refreshing to see an academic approach to the chapter. Sadly, I still feel the Sasuke will only find peace in death and I can't see him integrating back into shinobi society after his experience. Kishimoto could always surprise us though!

#3 Gravenimage

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 10:19 PM

QUOTE (deafdrum @ Mar 11 2010, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I apologize if I'm posting this too early, or if it would have been better if I posted in the 486 discussion thread, but I believe my ideas are broad enough to warrant a separate thread...not to mention I take quite a few, probably too many words to express them. sweatdrop.gif

Throughout the manga, Naruto has changed people through his words and actions. I believe we can actually see a consistency to his methods.

  • He relates to the character by sharing an experience similar to what primarily motivates that character
  • He explains how his situation was (or will be) resolved differently and why he's now a different person than the character or someone within that character's experience. The character also recalls someone from their experience that give similar words of wisdom.
  • He demonstrates his resolve through his fighting spirit


If we look at specific examples:

He relates to Neji because he was marked from birth and hindered through fate to forever be known as someone of "lower" status and ability. He explains that he ignored that fate through exceeding everyone's expectations and mastering a jutsu that was once his worst. Neji remembers the words of his father, who tells him to "live freely." He demonstrates that this is indeed true by defeating Neji with that very jutsu.

He relates to Gaara because he was hated for the demon that was put inside of him. He explains that he overcame the resulting loneliness by establishing bonds, rather than simply living for himself and loving himself. Gaara remembers the words of his uncle telling him what love is, but that idea is shattered by the subsequent assassination attempt. However Naruto demonstrates the strength this love gives him by successfully protecting one of his loved ones. wink.gif

The example I think is most significant comes in the Pain Arc. This is where the need arises for Naruto's method of changing people to extend from the individual to the ninja world as a whole by "breaking the chain of hatred" that has existed since before the nations were created. In this example, Naruto relates to Nagato because of the pain they both experienced through losing loved ones, and the resulting chain of hatred that is formed. Naruto explains he will find a way to permanently break that chain of hatred without killing innocent people and that he will never give up--words that Nagato once adopted as his own mantra through his experience with Jiraiya. At this point though, Nagato accepts his words on faith, and Naruto doesn't have to demonstrate.

However, I believe Naruto demonstrates later what it means for him as a ninja to break that chain of hatred. When he encounters an angry team from Cloud that approaches Konoha because Sasuke was believed to have captured Killer Bee, he diffuses a potentially volatile situation by uttering two very important words:

"Hit me."

Naruto lowers his guard and takes Karui's beatings without retaliating. Eventually, Karui is stopped by Omoi and Cloud agrees to cooperate with Konoha in their efforts to find Killer Bee. This act is significant, because it serves a twofold purpose: Naruto protects others by drawing the retaliation to himself, and he makes people realize the futility of revenge, thereby diffusing the hatred that caused it in the first place.

Now, Naruto faces his final challenge: Sasuke, the individual who has resisted his methods of change the most. Sasuke has already voiced his desire to destroy Konoha and avenge his clan, an act that would inevitably plunge the nations into turmoil and continue the chain of hatred. Naruto's already tried to relate to Sasuke's hatred and loneliness, but as Sasuke has made clear, their situations are too different. Naruto has tried to explain how he was able to overcome his hatred and loneliness through forming bonds, but Sasuke wants nothing to do with them. All that remains is the demonstration, for which Naruto, in this latest chapter, has laid down the gauntlet..magnificently, I might add smile.gif.

Naruto announces that he will fight Sasuke by himself, taking all of Sasuke's hatred upon his shoulders until it disappears, or until they both die. In doing so, he will seek to reconnect with an individual friend, protect his village, and break the chains of hatred that bind the world.

In seeking to reconnect to Sasuke, Naruto knows words are no longer enough, and the rest must be done through actions, or as Naruto puts it, "fists." That way, the two will be able to understand each other. In shouldering all of Sasuke's hatred, Naruto will better understand Sasuke and the pain that caused his hatred. At the same time, Sasuke will come to realize Naruto's resolve for protecting his bonds, and the hatred will disappear. I think Naruto relates this to his experience with Iruka because of what happened in chapter 1. Iruka could very well have hated Naruto for being the host of the demon that killed his parents, but because he was able to understand that Naruto was very much like him, an outcast with few friends, he instead developed a bond with him, even going so far as to protect him with his life.

Seeking to protect the village is pretty self-evident and, of course, nothing new for Naruto. Obviously, Sasuke won't have time to exact revenge on others while he's fighting Naruto.

In seeking to break the chains of hatred that bind the world, Naruto is once again taking on the role of a lightning rod of sorts, like his did with Kamui: absorbing Sasuke's hatred but returning none of his own, and not allowing anyone else the chance to retaliate either. Naruto's hope for Sasuke, that his hatred will disappear once they're able to understand each other, is reflective of Jiraiya's hope for the world, that he imparted to both Nagato and Naruto: that a day will come where everyone will understand each other.

In summary, Kishimoto does an excellent job of bringing the themes of the manga as well as Naruto's character, especially as it relates to Sasuke, full-circle. He has shown a continuous consistency that can be seen at numerous points and will surely bring an ending that is no less exciting and unpredictable, much like the title character smile.gif.

Any further thoughts or ideas are always appreciated, and thanks for reading.


All I have to say to you is AWESOME POST man everything you said it's true. You really know how to analyze well great work man I completely agree with you. a_thumbs.gif
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#4 narsak@fan

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 11:29 AM

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Mar 13 2010, 06:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All I have to say to you is AWESOME POST man everything you said it's true. You really know how to analyze well great work man I completely agree with you. a_thumbs.gif
A nice insight you have there. I totally agree. I just want to add a few things. To Kishimoto’s credit, here we can see another big step in Naruto’s maturity and his development. One might sighs at his persistence in pursuing Sasuke (frankly sometimes I think he’s overdoing it), almost an obsession in fact. But more than a friend, Sasuke represents the very idea of his struggle because he sees himself in Sasuke. If he could be free of his hatred, so will his friend. He withheld his judgement despite everything (all their friends have given up, including Sakura and Kakashi, from the way they acted) and went to see for himself. Though Sasuke might never return, he placed himself in his way so Sasuke will always know he has a place to return to, or a foe that he has to vanquish. Either is fine with Naruto. We will see more of that I am sure. But the side plots should also be taken account, as they add spice of the situation. As Team 7 gathered, each has to deal with Sasuke in their minds. Will Kakashi be willing to take Sasuke’s life to atone for his mistake as he puts it, and carry the burden of a sensei on his shoulder just like Sandaime felt for Orochimaru? Jiraiya for Pain? Or will he trust everything to Naruto to make matters right? Or how will Sakura resolved her feelings, knowing she doesn’t have the will to hurt Sasuke? Who will she cry for? Was her confession just a lie? Or will she save them both as she has vowed three years ago? And what of Sasuke himself? Will Karin truly abandon Sasuke, or can Naruto be a better persuader than the legendary Madara? Can endearing bonds of friendship heal the pain of losing one’s whole family right in front of your eyes? Which stood closest to him? Personally, I think Sasuke had passed the point of no return by killing Danzo, who despite his Machiavellian approach, was a legally selected Hokage. It might be a bad hindsight should he went scott free from that act. The chain of hatred, just added another link. Will the politics of Narutoworld favours Naruto’s belief? And remember, the truth is still blurry, even Naruto is still guarded with everything Madara had said to him. Despite the holistic sense of the chapter, more questions emerged. Oh the plot thickens. smile.gif

#5 Merger Knight

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 09:03 PM

QUOTE (narsak@fan @ Mar 13 2010, 07:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Personally, I think Sasuke had passed the point of no return by killing Danzo, who despite his Machiavellian approach, was a legally selected Hokage.


well akage was killed before durring the Huyga isnident and they found a way around that




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