29 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

Lately amonsgt specualtion of whats happening in the next chapters. A lot fo people have commented on Sasukes fall into Darkness and his treatment of Karin in the process.

I found an Essay by Kanae the founder and owner of the Spice and Ice FC over at Naruto forums regarding thisvery matter and I agree with most of the points directly made.

how karin is used to show sasukes fall

the essence of the essay is that Karin not team 7 is used as the most important factor to showcase Sasukes fal into darkness. Both as a result of her perceptions and by her actions, as well as Sasukes actions with her.

this fall is a sharp and drastic one given the events of chapter 414-415 where in the midst of the battle with the Hachibi Sasuke displayed for the first time since part 1, his acceptance of the true principles of the manga. gaining strength by protecting whats precious to you. In this case Karin and by proxy team hawk. His brief flash of team 7 showed this acceptance as he for that one brief moment embraced that principle and gained first Amateratsu, then the ability to control it.

however this is brought into sharp contrast by the events of the kage summit where it is Karin who consistently speaks to the audience about Sasukes darkness and changes, and who through Sasukes actions shows that the person he once risked life and limb for and trusted in his blind spot is slipping away or being pushed away from him.

the final moment of sasukes true fall too darkness comes when again from karins perspective we get Sasukes sacrafice of the person he fought so hard for agaisnt killerbee.

even Sakura and Kakashis internal dialogue about Sasukes darkness is only a confrimation of what Karin has already told us and shown us.

I think the next few chapters will showcase a very interesting series of moments between Sakura and Karin. a series of moments where the two will contrast each other and possibly bond in a way neither will expect or realoize till much later.

this bond may very well come into play much later in the story as both along with naruto try and save Sasuke from his self imposed darkness and Karins loyalty which many have criticized her for may very well be the only saving grace that redeems Sasuke in the end.

[Nee-sama]

That essay makes a lot of sense, from a literary perspective as well as personal observation. Before Sasuke started killing for reasons other than revenge I used to believe that he was entirely redeemable. He was dark, but not entirely evil. After all, he could have killed Naruto at the end of part one but chose to let him live. His chances at redemption have been increasingly less believable as his decent into darkness pulls him down farther and farther.

There may be a parallel between Naruto's lowpoint (getting beat up and fainting due to his inability to accept the changes in Sasuke) and Sasuke's rise into villany. Just as Danzou and the Sandaime were compared to yin and yang, Naruto and Sasuke seem to be just as comparable.

With this person's (people's?) essay in mind, I think I can finish Karin's sentence from the bottom of page 4-ch.483 "she must love him too, but [Sasuke isn't the same person that she met and fell in love with.]"

[Broken Figurine]

Sasuke's descent into darkness started way before we knew Karin. In fact, some of the themes surrounding him now have been repeating back in Part One on his retrieval mission. I recall Neji being the first one who said that Sasuke is 'in the dark' during his fight (along with him saying how Naruto's eyes were even better, ones that would find him in the darkness). Then there was Gaara, as well. I don't know why everyone finds the part where he stabbed Karin to be that pivotal point. He had already stated before hand that he wanted to crush Konoha, and that was before killing the samurai. His nature had become very twisted, for sure, to the point where he has become blind. The moment he found out the truth about Itachi everyone could see he lost his cool, now everything is just a result of it. Karin is used because she has this 'undying' (literally, I will never get over her get-out-of-dying cop out) love for Sasuke, so the effect of it is more of a shocker, I suppose. Killing random ninja? Everyone does that. That one person that has followed you, been loyal to you, loved you, yeah then there is more of that oh-my-gosh-he's-messed-up factor. For crying out loud he joined Akatsuki, to me that was the big "He's a villain now" moment.

Karin does seem to be playing a bigger role here, but for her to be instrumental in his change or his redemption says a big screw you to 90% of this plot. That should be Naruto's department. He convenient use as a chakra sensor makes her a good expository for things we as readers do not see. Did we really need her to be saying "look his chakra!" in order to know he's been messed up? Killing people should have been enough. She's a supplement, a very useful one, in showcasing Sasuke's turn to utter insanity. Do I consider her primary? Naw, Sasuke does that well enough on his own.

[Miss Soupy]

I have to agree with Broken.

Whenever I think about why Karin has been with him so long, I end up scratching my head. I suppose a positive for SasuKari is that Karin apparently doesn't mind Sasuke being evil. Which, in my eyes, isn't a positive for her at all :/ He pretty much showed his true colors when he willingly joined akatsuki and the same guy his beloved brother was protecting him against. Karin, like Sakura, is supposed to be the smart one, and yet this didn't really send up any warning bells nor make her reevaluate her feelings for a guy she met once when they were 12. Sasuke didn't just start to become evil around her, just like Broken mentioned. He has had tendencies towards darkness ever since early part I. I think Kishi used Karin to make it unarguable fact, but that's about it.

[Mugen no Neko]

Ah, how I love when people write things like that. It makes me think when I'd otherwise not...
It really raised my hopes again, so...!!! That was really interesting! *changes siggy*

[Derock]

Very interesting read...

... but to add on Broken Figurine's post and others... did he also killed those ninja before taking down Orochimaru? Some people forgot about that scene. Even though those ninjas were fodder, I mean come on, that was a sign that he may become a villain back then.

[Nee-sama]

Actually he didn't kill a single one of those ninjas according to Orochimaru. He even said that Sasuke was too soft at that time. Just another example of how he wasn't fully evil at that point.

However, I concede that Broken Figurine makes a very good point as well.

Edited by Nee-sama, 23 February 2010 - 12:34 AM.

[Faexylona]

I agree with what most have commented on this subject. By Stabbing Karin, Kishi showed the path Sasuke had taken. Then, Sasuke tried to kills Sakura. It was like Kishi showing, "you don't belief he is evil because it was Karin he stabbed, then how about Sakura. The girl who told him he loved him and member of team seven."

Karin's comments on Sasuke turning towards the darkness did not convince me at first. I intended to ignore her, but after, she was stabbed, I had to stop and analyze what she had been telling the readers all along.

The part that I don't agree with his Karin been a key to Sasuke's redemption. How can she be the key? In my personal opinion and how someone else has stated, if Sasuke gets redeem it will be because of Naruto. Naruto is the only one with that special quality that can turned evil maniacs into saints.

[Freakazoid]

Meh, i'm not really interested in KarinxSasuke or Sasuke being redeemed.

[Insurrection]

Meh, i'm not really interested in KarinxSasuke or Sasuke being redeemed.

Second

[socermania2]

Meh, Sasuke doesn't want redemption, so why should he get it?

I'm don't care much about SasuKarin. At least be happy its more canon that SasuSaku.

[catsi563]

shes not THE key bit she will be A key almsot certianly.

she was used to very explicitly show this fall and has some interesitng moments of contrast between the sasuke that rescued her from that bear and the Sasuke who struck her down with a chidori coming up.

and she does mind him being evil. hell that was one of the prime points of the essay. She may not ahve cared about Konoha and his joining akatsuki was as Sasuke himself put it a means to an end. SO no evil there.

yet she was very clearly shown to be disturbed by his descent into darker paths, and the she was there to narrate and very succinctly state jsut how far he had fallen.

[Broken Figurine]

That was one of the things I found really, really odd. This is a person who joined Orochimaru, was probably exposed to some very evil things (experiments, killing, death tournaments) and when we first see her everything she does is trying to promote how 'cool' Sasuke is. She didn't act like the feeling, lovey-dovey girl she's been recently appointed to. How can she mind Sasuke being evil when everything surrounding them is evil? Or was she somehow misguided into thinking Akatsuki and Orochimaru had noble and good intentions about them? This hero worship of Sasuke, going from thinking he was so bad-ass and hot to woah there, loving him because of one thing that happened waaay back. Did she honestly believe there was no change between the Sasuke back then and the one now? If so, then she really didn't know him at all.

The thing I don't like about this is this idea of telling is somehow has more of an impact than showing. Sasuke has proved through many actions of his downfall that have gone beyond Karin. It was his actions and his course of the story that have made this downfall possible. How can you say there is no evil to his joining Akatsuki? That there is no evil to killing Orochimaru? No evil to leaving behind Suigetsu and Juugo? As Soupy said, why on earth would she stay with him? Oh, that's right, she's in love with him. Suffering from a delusion, more like. She can tell his "chakra" is changing, and she was used to showcase that Sasuke has no sympathy for anyone no matter what their relationship is to him; mind you team 7 had long ago showed this, Suigetsu and Juugo showed this, Orochimaru showed this... The moment she was taken hostage there was no surprise that she was going to be stabbed. Remember what he said to Naruto? He warned that those who get in his way will die; Karin got in the way.

The scene was big, yes, but if that's the way you want to look at it there are many "keys". Karin is not special in this regard, the only thing that separates her from say Sakura was that she had this unconditional, in my opinion delusional, love for him that it's much like the Hinata confession. The scene would not have been the same if it was say Tenten, because of the feelings Hinata had.

Karin on her own would not sufficiently explain Sasuke's downfall. She is not that important to the darkness going on in his life. It's sad that a character like her would be put above Team 7, the main villain, Orochimaru and Kabuto... While I feel she may have some further significance to the story, I feel this emphasis on her is exaggerated and to put it mildly, too SasuKarin-esque.

[catsi563]

I think you misunderstand me Broken. She isnt the reaosn for hsi turning evil. She was used to very show very specific moments and to very clearly delinieate those moments from the Sasuke she knew.

the fact that she was in love with him isnt in dispute, and was given even greater credence by his saving her. At the time she was introduced Sasauke wasnt what we would call evil. driven , obsessed , and angry sure but he was focused on revenge and that was very clear, even to the point where he didnt kill a single sound ninja.

yet she was there when he suddenly broke that rule and killed the samaruai that opposed him.

As to orochimaru ill quote ehr databook entry

But even as Orochimaru's underling, Karin feels no obligation towards him. Karin still fulfills her duties out of affection for Uchiha Sasuke

And the fact that she told off Madara shows she didnt care about Akatsuki either. she followed Sasuke on his quest and no one elses.

So in closing yes there were many keys but Karin was the main key used to showcase the fall.

[racerxdsr]

I believe Kishi's other motive with Karin's "relationship" with Sasuke is to show what could have been if Sakura did leave with him in part one. That Sakura could have just as easily been in Karin's position stabbed, bleeding and abandoned. We may see her come to this realization as well and further display how far Sasuke has fallen.

Oh and btw I agree with you Catsi!

[Hak]

From the flashback Karin had, I got the feeling that one of the things why she left Kusa(?) and joined Orochimaru is just the smile Sasuke showed her during the chuunin exams...

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Is it just me guys, But Karin is the first girl Sasuke smiled with..

Edited by pinkheartsyellowstars, 23 February 2010 - 04:29 PM.

[Evil Potato]

Karin's flashback seemed way too surreal and fake, but I guess it really happened, and yeah i think Karin is the only girl Sasuke ever smiled gently at after saving.

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Karin's flashback seemed way too surreal and fake, but I guess it really happened, and yeah i think Karin is the only girl Sasuke ever smiled gently at after saving.

Oh,
so it means, Karin saw the soft-side of Sasuke first, his smile.