77 replies to this topic

[Kori]

Okay in english class today we were discussing Shakespears usage of tragic heroes and what exactly tragic heroes are. When she (my teacher) wrote out what all tragic heroes posses a light bulb went off in my head.
Here are the qualities she wrote

Born into nobility...check
falls from that nobility in some way...check
responsible for own fate...check
Tragic flaw...check
makes an irreversible mistake...arguable
and finally
meets a tragic death...that would seal the deal

ok heres the explaination
born into nobility: father was the 4th hokage...nuff said

falls from that nobility in some way: he grew up alone, poor and in lower class status, next

responsible for own fate: fighting to become hokage and is doing a good job and that dream is within reach, moving on

tragic flaw: ok this is easy, intellect needs work, overly hyper, gets in over his head(well not so much anymore but still) impatient, i could go on for a while so lets go on

irreversible mistake: in my opinion the 6-8 tails was the mistake. the 4th fixed the seal (which he says is the last time he can) and is only 16 (or 15 i can't remember) he also destroyed the 1st's necklace and that is how Yamato was able to suppress the fox' chakra, now with that gone, what would happen if Naruto went 4 tails again? they couldn't stop him because the cloak is impenetrable (at least that's what Kishi states) and they can't suppress the chakra because that seal Jiraiya gave Kakashi needs to be placed on him (idk if it has to be placed on a certain asspect of his body or not) and the fox will either obliterate Kakashi, or using his superior speed, get away. then when he tires out (again idk if that could happen) they most likely won't be able to find him and heal him. if he doesn't get tired out and he becomes even more enraged, then he could very well get to the 8th tail again and then the 4th can't fix the seal after which could possibly screw up Naruto's chance at becoming hokage and also possibly the fox could get out with the seal weakening and all that.

those are my assessments. we could very well see Naruto end with Naruto's death or in the future with the aftermath of his death

major 446 spoiler --Click here to view--

and is also seen with Yahiko's suicide in that chapter which is possibly Kishimoto foreshadowing Naruto's death

who agrees? who doesn't agree? who at least thinks it's a valid point? i'm all ears and i am also willing to listen to anything you want to add

if there are any more qualities of the tragic hero i'll post them up again (i won't double don't worry i don't do that, well unless my PC screws up then it shows as a double post) so anyway tell me what you think i hope i caught something here and if i'm right and Naruto is to die, then i think we should all hope that Sakura falls in love (or realizes she's in love with him based on she hasen't shown MAJORLY STRONG romantic actions towards him but shown some romantic actions nonetheless) before he dies and they become canon.

well peace out and as always
-Enjoi

[Sakura Blossoms]

These are all interesting points...but this is a Shonen Manga. The main hero/character practically never dies, and almost always realizes their dreams in the end. And Kishomoto is nothing, if not a staunch follower of shonen guidelines.

[Kori]

These are all interesting points...but this is a Shonen Manga. The main hero/character practically never dies, and almost always realizes their dreams in the end. And Kishomoto is nothing, if not a staunch follower of shonen guidelines.

well you never know which is the killer because you on one end have Naruto who fits all these qualities and you have the shonen manga traditions. it's just SO agonizing in seeing as it could go either way. plus just because it's a shonen manga doens't mean that he can't die which in a way is what you said by practically. so i'm just thinking it's a possibility and won't be as shocked if it does happen to turn out that way because of how great a student i am (sarcasm as you could probably tell as i was thinking of these points while she was discussing the topic lol). well at least somebody thinks i thought of something intelligent for once

[Sora no Kitsune]

These are all interesting points...but this is a Shonen Manga. The main hero/character practically never dies, and almost always realizes their dreams in the end. And Kishomoto is nothing, if not a staunch follower of shonen guidelines.

I have to agree with Shauna here. It's really good points and but as she said, this is a Shonen Manga, not a Tragedy novel. Naruto will reach his dreams and although he is obviously gonna have some problems later on, i do belive he will survive them. Though i do belive the whole kyuubi taking over Naruto again could possibly happen and taking into consideration that Sakura attempted to stop Naruto the last time he went Kyuubi, i have a feeling she will again, only with more successful out come.

Though you did make very valid points and you did a great job with the reasoning.

[Kori]

I have to agree with Shauna here. It's really good points and but as she said, this is a Shonen Manga, not a Tragedy novel. Naruto will reach his dreams and although he is obviously gonna have some problems later on, i do belive he will survive them. Though i do belive the whole kyuubi taking over Naruto again could possibly happen and taking into consideration that Sakura attempted to stop Naruto the last time he went Kyuubi, i have a feeling she will again, only with more successful out come.

Though you did make very valid points and you did a great job with the reasoning.

i understand that it's a Shonen manga, i really was just labeling the connections i made while in class today. i don't expect Naruto to die but i wouldn't be so surprised now that i made the connections if he did die. I guess i really just want this to be somehow slightly to be considered. And if it does happen, well thanks to me and my art of wasting class time, we won't be as surprised...i guess? idk
anyway thanks for the acknowledgement of my breakthrough ^/\^

[Kyuudaime]

well you never know which is the killer because you on one end have Naruto who fits all these qualities and you have the shonen manga traditions. it's just SO agonizing in seeing as it could go either way. plus just because it's a shonen manga doens't mean that he can't die which in a way is what you said by practically. so i'm just thinking it's a possibility and won't be as shocked if it does happen to turn out that way because of how great a student i am (sarcasm as you could probably tell as i was thinking of these points while she was discussing the topic lol). well at least somebody thinks i thought of something intelligent for once

Also, different cultures tend to have different ways of story telling.
While you can argue it, you could argue the same thing with different writing styles. Naruto is probably comparable to a vast amount of writing styles.
So I disagree with you.

[Nee-sama]

I could argue that Naruto is not a typical tragic hero as your teacher is probably referring to.

Born into nobility...? Technically, Hokage is not nobility. The title of Hokage is not passed on through the same bloodline, nor does it have the responsibility of government. Arguably, Tsunade was dubbed "hime" by Danzou and a few others because of her Grandfather having the title, however it doesn't carry the connotations of a royal princess.

falls from that nobility in some way...? Falling from nobility would imply that Naruto was treated as such prior to some terrible incident when his name/title became disgraced. Naruto was nothing more than a common orphan from the very beginning.

responsible for own fate...? Nothing about Naruto's fate is in his own hands. The burden of being a Jinchuuriki was given to him and thus so was his fate.

Tragic flaw...? Sure he's a goofy bastard that has a hard time understanding women, but is that really a tragic flaw?

makes an irreversible mistake...arguable Naruto has always followed his heart and his insticts. I don't really think he's ever done anything that was a terrible mistake or even irreversible.

and finally
meets a tragic death... not impossible, but not probable. either way, the ending will be epic!
fun topic~

[Cloud]

This is a manga, not a Shakespearean tragic play...

I've read enough plays to know that tragic flaw is the one that usually kills the person in the end. But this is a Shounen manga. The main character never dies.

[naruto-sama]

and finally
meets a tragic death... not impossible, but not probable. either way, the ending will be epic!
fun topic~

"the true measure of a shinobi is not how he lives, but how he dies.."

unlike Bleach, in Naruto the "good guys" die (Minato, Sandaime, Jiraiya) so i agree with you, is not impossible... maybe Naruto has to make the ultimate sacrifice in the end, maybe not but surelly the ending will be epic

[Kori]

I could argue that Naruto is not a typical tragic hero as your teacher is probably referring to.

Born into nobility...? Technically, Hokage is not nobility. The title of Hokage is not passed on through the same bloodline, nor does it have the responsibility of government. Arguably, Tsunade was dubbed "hime" by Danzou and a few others because of her Grandfather having the title, however it doesn't carry the connotations of a royal princess.

falls from that nobility in some way...? Falling from nobility would imply that Naruto was treated as such prior to some terrible incident when his name/title became disgraced. Naruto was nothing more than a common orphan from the very beginning.

responsible for own fate...? Nothing about Naruto's fate is in his own hands. The burden of being a Jinchuuriki was given to him and thus so was his fate.

Tragic flaw...? Sure he's a goofy bastard that has a hard time understanding women, but is that really a tragic flaw?

makes an irreversible mistake...arguable Naruto has always followed his heart and his insticts. I don't really think he's ever done anything that was a terrible mistake or even irreversible.

and finally
meets a tragic death... not impossible, but not probable. either way, the ending will be epic!
fun topic~

well at least you had fun anyway i have to say this because i've never had the chance to and i've always wanted to do this YOU'VE CHALLENGED ME TO A ARGUEMENT-OFF (i guess we could call it that lol) anyway before i start i'd like to say that your response to the responsible for own fate, you sound a lot like Neji did lmao

anyway to my counterpoints
number 1 i didn't mean nobility in a literal sense, just the fact that it's a status position and he had that status as the hokages son
number 2 he did have that status as the hokage's son and it was taken away from him (although you made a good point that was implied that he should of had it before, but i basically think of it as that he should of had it and never had a chance
number 3 i mentioned more than his lack of intellect, i also mentioned his impatience so i guess i countered that one with incredible ease
number 4 we've seen him defy odds all the time, his fight with neji he was supposed to lose, he got through emotionally to Zabuza (which is incredible in my opinion) he stopped Gaara from destroying the village and he also basically OWNED Pain. now everything is in his hands, whether Pain will live, which will give him more credit with the villagers which would help with becoming Hokage if he kills him. also becoming hokage is in his hands, we've seen how he protected the village against Pain, can anyone argue against him becoming hokage as a probability?
number 5 ...what does that have to do with my reasoning behind his irreversable mistake? sorry, but i don't see anymore of the first hokage's special necklace's growing in caves anywhere do you? (sorry i sound like a jerk for that one )

anyway thanks for the challenge idk y but i had to do that lol thanks for posting

This is a manga, not a Shakespearean tragic play...

I've read enough plays to know that tragic flaw is the one that usually kills the person in the end. But this is a Shounen manga. The main character never dies.

okay i agree with the tragic flaw being the usual reason why they die, which could still be related to Naruto. He could get angry (which he is easily angered) and rush into battle which kills him, but the possibilities of that happening is basically 0 if not .01% chance.
also it doens't have to be a Shakespearean play or a play in general in order to have a tragic character, anyway just because it's a Shonen manga doesn't mean automatically that Naruto won't die it just lessens the chance dramatically

Edited by Kori, 08 May 2009 - 12:51 AM.

[RyrineaHaruno]

In fact Sasuke is the one who's going to die in this story aging because in this story he so much to live for. So what does Sasuke have to live for nothing I said.

He was born in to nobility (Uchiha clan one of the founders of Konaha)
Tragic Past- the Uchiha clan killed off and his bother killed them
That will be Sasuke not Naruto ok because he still have a lot to live for Kori I don't agree with I am sorry but the Tragic Hero is Sasuke on this one I foresee his death




* The hero discovers his fate by his own actions, not by things happening to him.

* The hero sees and understands his doom, and that his fate was revealed by his own actions.

* The hero's downfall is understood by Aristotle to arouse pity and fear.

* The hero is physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often resulting in his death, or a fate worse than death.

* A tragic hero is often of noble birth, or rises to noble standing (King Arthur, Okonkwo, the main character in Achebe's novel, Things Fall Apart.)

* The hero learns something from his/her mistake.

* The hero is faced with a serious decision.

* The suffering of the hero is meaningful.


* There may sometimes be supernatural involvement (in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, Caesar is warned of his death via Calpurnia's vision and Brutus is warned of his impending death by the ghost of Caesar).

* The Shakespearean tragic hero dies at some point in the story, for example Macbeth. Shakespeare's characters show that tragic heroes are neither fully good nor fully evil.

* The hero of classical tragedies is almost universally male. Later tragedies (like Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra) introduced the female tragic hero. Portrayals of female tragic heroes are notable because they are rare.[2]

[Kori]

In fact Sasuke is the one who's going to die in this story aging because in this story he so much to live for. So what does Sasuke have to live for nothing I said.

He was born in to nobility (Uchiha clan one of the founders of Konaha)
Tragic Past- the Uchiha clan killed off and his bother killed them
That will be Sasuke not Naruto ok because he still have a lot to live for Kori I don't agree with I am sorry but the Tragic Hero is Sasuke on this one I foresee his death




* The hero discovers his fate by his own actions, not by things happening to him.

* The hero sees and understands his doom, and that his fate was revealed by his own actions.

* The hero's downfall is understood by Aristotle to arouse pity and fear.

* The hero is physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often resulting in his death, or a fate worse than death.

* A tragic hero is often of noble birth, or rises to noble standing (King Arthur, Okonkwo, the main character in Achebe's novel, Things Fall Apart.)

* The hero learns something from his/her mistake.

* The hero is faced with a serious decision.

* The suffering of the hero is meaningful.


* There may sometimes be supernatural involvement (in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, Caesar is warned of his death via Calpurnia's vision and Brutus is warned of his impending death by the ghost of Caesar).

* The Shakespearean tragic hero dies at some point in the story, for example Macbeth. Shakespeare's characters show that tragic heroes are neither fully good nor fully evil.

* The hero of classical tragedies is almost universally male. Later tragedies (like Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra) introduced the female tragic hero. Portrayals of female tragic heroes are notable because they are rare.[2]

Sasuke was going to be my second choice to the Tragic hero, only reason why he isn't number one is simple. he isn't a hero anymore. well i guess you can see him as MacBeth. i mean, he's powerhungry, easily swayed, powerful only one thing is missing though...WHERE'S LADY MACBETH? only one possible answer...OROCHIMARU BWAAHAHAHAHAH
only one question, do you think Sasuke's going to die mainly because you hate him or your reasons you listed above (i'm lazy)?

[Sakura Blossoms]

"the true measure of a shinobi is not how he lives, but how he dies.."

unlike Bleach, in Naruto the "good guys" die (Minato, Sandaime, Jiraiya) so i agree with you, is not impossible... maybe Naruto has to make the ultimate sacrifice in the end, maybe not but surelly the ending will be epic

The good guys may die, but not the young good guys. Kishimoto can't even kill off a character that plainly took a direct hit from a killer who usually always kills his target yes, Hinata I'm looking at you, so the idea that Naruto will somehow be the first and only of the Rookie 9 to die, just doesn't seem very plausible or likely to me.

[Cloud]

Hinata had her boob shield. :teehee:

[RyrineaHaruno]

Sasuke was going to be my second choice to the Tragic hero, only reason why he isn't number one is simple. he isn't a hero anymore. well i guess you can see him as MacBeth. i mean, he's powerhungry, easily swayed, powerful only one thing is missing though...WHERE'S LADY MACBETH? only one possible answer...OROCHIMARU BWAAHAHAHAHAH
only one question, do you think Sasuke's going to die mainly because you hate him or your reasons you listed above (i'm lazy)?

But mist Tragic hero turn evil like



Here is another thing to go to that He may die without an epiphany of his destiny and he may suffer without the ability to change events that are happening to him. The story may end without closure and even without the death of the hero. This new hero of modernism is the antihero and may not be considered by all to even be a tragic hero.While the modern popular rendering of hamartia as "tragic flaw" (or "fatal flaw") is broadly imprecise and often misleading, it cannot be ruled out that the term as Aristotle understood it could sometimes at least partially connote a failure of morals or character:


Artemis Fowl for one he was bad but then turned good in the books were awesome


Jay Gatsby The Great Gatsby

Freddy Krueger from A Nightmare on Elm Street. I have know idea why he would be a anti hero lol because he enjoyed Killing and was not good from the start but in it says he is but I anti buying it lol.


* Harry Callahan from the Dirty Harry series
* Jack Carter from Get Carter
* Chev Chelios from Crank
* Chucky from the Child's Play series
* Michael Corleone from The Godfather trilogy
* John Creasy from Man on Fire
* Angel from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel
* Kerr Avon in Blake's 7
* Theodore "T-Bag" Bagwell from Prison Break.
* Jack Bauer from 24
* Bender from Futurama
* Edmund Blackadder from BBC's Blackadder series
* David Brent from The Office
* Archie Bunker from All in the Family
* Eric Cartman from South Park
* JR Chandler from All My Children
* George Costanza from Seinfeld
* Larry David from Curb Your Enthusiasm
* The Doctor from Doctor Who
* Guts from Berserk
* Lelouch Lamperouge from Code Geass
* Vegeta from Dragonball Z
* Light Yagami from Death Note

[Kori]

The good guys may die, but not the young good guys. Kishimoto can't even kill off a character that plainly took a direct hit from a killer who usually always kills his target yes, Hinata I'm looking at you, so the idea that Naruto will somehow be the first and only of the Rookie 9 to die, just doesn't seem very plausible or likely to me.

whoever said he would be the only one? idk lol

Cloud Posted Today, 09:47 PM
Hinata had her boob shield.

lmfao BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[RyrineaHaruno]

whoever said he would be the only one? idk lol

again look at my post The modern Tragic hero is the anti hero

[Sakura Blossoms]

whoever said he would be the only one? idk lol

Have any of them died thus far? So, if he died obviously he would then be the only one.

[RyrineaHaruno]

Have any of them died thus far? So, if he died obviously he would then be the only one.

So true I will be agree with you Sakura because why would any of they young die except Sasuke since he is the Anti hero in this

[Cloud]

* Harry Callahan from the Dirty Harry series
* Jack Carter from Get Carter
* Chev Chelios from Crank
* Chucky from the Child's Play series
* Michael Corleone from The Godfather trilogy
* John Creasy from Man on Fire
* Angel from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel
* Kerr Avon in Blake's 7
* Theodore "T-Bag" Bagwell from Prison Break.
* Jack Bauer from 24
* Bender from Futurama
* Edmund Blackadder from BBC's Blackadder series
* David Brent from The Office
* Archie Bunker from All in the Family
* Eric Cartman from South Park
* JR Chandler from All My Children
* George Costanza from Seinfeld
* Larry David from Curb Your Enthusiasm
* The Doctor from Doctor Who
* Guts from Berserk
* Lelouch Lamperouge from Code Geass
* Vegeta from Dragonball Z
* Light Yagami from Death Note

Larry David is an anti-hero? Bender too? George from Seinfeld? Cartman?

You listed half comedy.