106 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

Also, there's a few comments about how the current ninja seem to be weaker than the old ninja. There's a reason for that; Madara and Hashirama must've lived in an age of turbulence, it's possible that the Sage's death may've caused a power vacuum with several powerful warriors rising and fighting in a sort of 'Feudal Period'. It could be to prove who was to be the next powerful ninja or to quickly acquire the newly created bijuu.

Compared to the relatively peaceful modern times, it makes sense that the older, deceased ninja are several degrees more powerful than the current ninja. They were constantly fighting amongst each other until villages started popping up. Then, it seems like the villages may have been in a state of Cold War, where espionage was the norm, with fewer large-scale battles.

Heck, compare Hashirama's large-scale Mokuton techniques to Minato's teleporting technique. We've got attacks designed to affect a larger area and could take out an army vs. a more precise technique that could be used to get in and out of an area quickly (though it can still be used against an army, too).

We've also got the outfits from the past and present. Hashirama and Madara both wear thick armor while current ninja are dressed in all sorts of outfits that aren't standard issue. It might indicate a shift from large-scale battles to infiltration. Obviously, you stick out while wearing armor in another village. They also wear tactical jackets that may or may not be armor, but allow a ninja to carry a variety of tools.

My problem with the super-super-super powerful previous generations is that the storyline is so sudden. The manga started with Naruto's story, and now has veered into this bigger, wider scope where Naruto is a mere player. He'll be the savior, of course, but you enjoy powerhouses and villains so much more when there is dramatic buildup. I would forgive their enormous power if it was built into the story more.

Think of the beginning, when Naruto's prime goal is to be a Hokage. But he left that level behind ages ago, without much fanfare. So we've lost our badass barometer. The story was set to aim for the Hokage. Not the level of those previous. That's what makes it hard to accept.

But again, we know so much about the key players of the previous generation...and so little about the lives of those currently fighting (I'm looking at you Ten Ten), that I can't help but think all this character development is to build in plots and hook new readers for a prequel.

As for the Tsunade comments, I wonder if this isn't the product of samurai vs. ninja. Madara and Hashirama are both dressed in psuedo-samurai attire. I'm sure women would have been excluded from battle if they were engaged in a samurai culture. And historically, there weren't samurai women (openly), but there were definitely kunoichis. So ninja culture would have been more accepting. So I wonder if Madara's comments are born of the age/culture/fighting differences between his age bracket and hers. Tsunade's not at all surprised by his remark and looks forward to proving him wrong. So I get the feeling it's less a personal attack and more a difference of a 100 years of changes. (Well, he means it to be personal, but she's not taking it that way.)

@ donjoseph, right there with you!

Edited by tricksie, 29 February 2012 - 11:17 PM.

[TerrorKing]

I don't think I've ever been so polarized about a Naruto chapter before.

It looks like Itachi and Sasuke will finally talk things out, but it seems like Kishi is going to drag it out for god knows how many chapters because like others have already pointed out, he hasn't really told us anything that we already didn't know. I don't really mind Kishi taking his time to resolve things between Itachi and Sasuke. In fact, I kinda want him to do that. What I DON'T want is 10 chapters of Itachi dancing around the issue.

Then there's the whole Tsunade business and all I can say is "Kishi my man, you disappoint me". Don't get me wrong, the whole "back in MY day!" and "RAWR you weak woman, go back to the kitchen!" thing doesn't really surprise me because like Tricksie said, back in his time, women probably weren't as common on the battlefield as they are now. That, and he's an Uchiha. Being kittens is kinda their thing...even the good ones like Itachi.

But still, this whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Even if Tsunade manages to teach him a lesson and pound his sorry ass into dust (which I hope she does btw), that still doesn't change the fact that she is pretty much just a watered down version of her grandfather. I mean wasn't she supposed to be the greatest medic nin who ever lived? Then what about Hashirama Senju? You know the guy who could use the Mokuton and heal himself without using hand seals? Did everyone just forget about him?!

Edited by TerrorKing, 29 February 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[Dragunov]

I personally found this chapter boring. Nothing really happened.

[RedDelicious]

I mean wasn't she supposed to be the greatest medic nin who ever lived? Then what about Hashirama Senju?

Being able to heal himself doesn't say a lot about his ability to heal others (medic).
(Kakuzu had incredible regenerative abilities, but no one mistook him for a medic.)

Madara has benefitted from getting zombie-invulnerability and several power-ups from Kabuto (including the rinnegan).
Just because he's gloating like he was *always* that strong, doesn't make it so.
Looks like Madara and Sasuke share the same "poor winner" Uchiha trait: anyone that they can beat (even if it was a close match) has to be treated as inferior trash.

[merryGOflava]

The bolded part, is were I lost respect for this Manga and Kishi. After the Tsunade part now I questioning the time I spend reading this Manga...

Naruto is nothing like Goku, Ichigo, Luffy or even Edward from FMA, Naruto was only created to kiss Sasuke's a** plus make Sasuke look good....

your kidding???

this manga is ALL about naruto and his BONDS with others

no matter where you go.....it always ends up with naruto

if that person isnt connected to naruto then he isnt as important.

naruto has one of the closest bonds with sasuke thats why HE is important

also hes kinda a villain he has to overcome. to make HIMSELF stronger (so sasuke is for naruto not the other way around)

naruto is the one saving the world here!!! not sasuke.

sasuke has just showed up after 15 chapters and you guys are ranting how sasuke is the new hero??? come on.

sasuke's story isnt even that complex. he has a messed up past and thats all.....like thats the only thing that makes a hero. plz

naruto has a bad past, but he also has a future where everyone NEEDS him. no one needs sasuke.

and thats why this show is called Naruto.

[JG111580]

I think Tsunade will pull something out that stuns Madara. Afterall, she's been Hokage for what, four years? In that time and with the pending threat of the Atkatuski she migtht have developed a trump card using scrolls left behind by one of her predacessors. She might not have been able to use it against Pein because she was using her chakra to heal the villiagers, or because it would have further endangered the villiagers. .

I seem to recall that some questioned her strength when Pein attacked the villiage. This will be a perfect opportunity to reaffirm her Kage status by forcing Madara to acknowledge her.

I also think she won't be able to destroy Madara, which will lead to Itachi saving the day by stopping Kabuto.

I was a little disappointed by the Itachi conversation. I still don't think that the entire truth has been revealed. I even went back and reread Tobi's account of the Uchiha history in 399 and found where he lied about the 9 tails attack being a natural disaster leading the villiage elders to begin questioning the Uchiha loyalty. Maybe the massacre was all set up to both destroy the unfaithful Uchihas that supported the first Hokage, then leaving Sauske alive to destroy the villiage and the world itself. It will be very interesting to see what happens when they get to Kabuto.

I don't mind all of the background information on the various characters. It would be great to see a prequel series with Minato. It would also be very different in that Minato would be more like Sauske than Naruto, in other words " a gifted genious" but without the whole revenge and darkness thing. The background really fleshes out the story if you go back and reread without having to wait a week for the next chapter. Besides, the Kages aren't really new characters at this point as they have been around for about 100 chapters now.

In the end, showcasing the strength of these characters will only make Naruto's final abilities that much more impressive.

[chouzu_tao]

Le sigh... As others have noted: I know Itachi has to stop the Edo Tensei but... why can't he give Sasuke any answers. It's not like talking to Sasuke has seemingly slowed him down. This chapter really pisses me off. It's like Kishi is having Itachi put his fingers in his ears while saying "La la la la la, I can't hear you because if we settled it here, you'd suddenly become a good guy and we can't have that." This smells of BS and lazy writing. A betrayal to the character. I know it's been easy for Itachi to ignore everything and simply complete the mission but again, he's simply brushing off what Sasuke has to say when he knows damn well that it could play a factor in the outcome of the war, which is just as important as stopping the edo tensei. You can talk and run at the same time, it's not hard, especially for Itachi. Bleh... annoyed to no end.

Moving on. Tsunade what will you do? I've got my money on her surviving this, but Madara is crazy strong right now.

[ciardha]

That's what I was thinking. Kishi sure likes making women look weak, it seems. What's she going to do against Madara? She's weak compared to her grandfather, and she is only a "woman," after all... Tsk tsk.

Nope, you are missing the point, Kishimoto has a dude make those comments then promptly get his ass handed to him or shown up by a woman. Starts with Shikamaru in part 1, he makes disparaging comments about women then gets his ass handed to him by Tayuya and is rescued quite easily by Temari. Because he is young and a heroic character he learns to respect women, including Sakura. Where he made a belittling comment to her face in part 1, in part 2 he clearly highly respects her, basically treating her as his equal.

Then you have Sasori make sexist disparaging comments to Sakura and Chiyo and promptly has to eat his words, as young and not yet at that point fully tested Sakura was, she destroys his puppets, fools him with her tactics, and he having thought he made himself immortal and unbeatable. Chiyo helps Sakura out, but as Chiyo says, Sakura does almost all of the fighting without her help.

Remember as well Tsunade is a suceeding generation (two) from Madara. Also remember as we discovered from Kushina's flashbacks Mito Uzmaki, Tsunade's grandmother played a crucial role in Hashirama's defeat of Madara. (and boy that had to stick in Madara's craw that a woman was the key to defeating him. Look how he absolutely pretends a woman, Mito Uzumaki, wasn't a crucial part of getting his ass kicked by Hasirama. Note as well- Mito Uzumaki had a forehead diamond- just like Tsunade does. Tsunade may have not inherited her grandfather's abilities, but she did inherit some of the Uzumaki- the high chakra reserve and control- enough so that she had enough with what was stored in her forehead diamond that she was able to save everyone still living in Konoha when Pain blew up the entire village. Mito and Kushina both had an extreme level of the Uzumaki abilities, but neither had the intense level of control that Tsunade has, the ability that has made her legendary as a medic nin (from what Madara said about Hashirama's ability to heal himself, means he had an unearthly control over chakra, Tsunade had some of that mix in with the Uzumaki traits she inherited from her grandmother. She is a mix of both lines.

Another example- Terumi Mei was in the process of defeating Sasuke with ease when Zetsu surprised attacked her, but even that attack had no lasting damage on her, as we've seen.

Kishimoto uses those sexist words to expose and cut down sexism, the male characters who spout them promptly get defeated by female characters.

[merryGOflava]

Le sigh... As others have noted: I know Itachi has to stop the Edo Tensei but... why can't he give Sasuke any answers. It's not like talking to Sasuke has seemingly slowed him down. This chapter really pisses me off. It's like Kishi is having Itachi put his fingers in his ears while saying "La la la la la, I can't hear you because if we settled it here, you'd suddenly become a good guy and we can't have that." This smells of BS and lazy writing. A betrayal to the character. I know it's been easy for Itachi to ignore everything and simply complete the mission but again, he's simply brushing off what Sasuke has to say when he knows damn well that it could play a factor in the outcome of the war, which is just as important as stopping the edo tensei. You can talk and run at the same time, it's not hard, especially for Itachi. Bleh... annoyed to no end.

Moving on. Tsunade what will you do? I've got my money on her surviving this, but Madara is crazy strong right now.

actually im glad. (it was nice though)

lets face it everything itachi has tired has failed. (he just failed again by being seen by sasuke)
hes probably afraid he will screw up sasuke even more.
thats why hes leaving it to naruto.

itachi just cant have his way. XD its sad...but i'd ignore him too. heck im surprised itachi didnt just run as fast as he could away from sasuke when he first saw him.

Edited by merryGOflava, 01 March 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Nope, you are missing the point, Kishimoto has a dude make those comments then promptly get his ass handed to him or shown up by a woman. Starts with Shikamaru in part 1, he makes disparaging comments about women then gets his ass handed to him by Tayuya and is rescued quite easily by Temari. Because he is young and a heroic character he learns to respect women, including Sakura. Where he made a belittling comment to her face in part 1, in part 2 he clearly highly respects her, basically treating her as his equal.

Then you have Sasori make sexist disparaging comments to Sakura and Chiyo and promptly has to eat his words, as young and not yet at that point fully tested Sakura was, she destroys his puppets, fools him with her tactics, and he having thought he made himself immortal and unbeatable. Chiyo helps Sakura out, but as Chiyo says, Sakura does almost all of the fighting without her help.

Remember as well Tsunade is a suceeding generation (two) from Madara. Also remember as we discovered from Kushina's flashbacks Mito Uzmaki, Tsunade's grandmother played a crucial role in Hashirama's defeat of Madara. (and boy that had to stick in Madara's craw that a woman was the key to defeating him. Look how he absolutely pretends a woman, Mito Uzumaki, wasn't a crucial part of getting his ass kicked by Hasirama. Note as well- Mito Uzumaki had a forehead diamond- just like Tsunade does. Tsunade may have not inherited her grandfather's abilities, but she did inherit some of the Uzumaki- the high chakra reserve and control- enough so that she had enough with what was stored in her forehead diamond that she was able to save everyone still living in Konoha when Pain blew up the entire village. Mito and Kushina both had an extreme level of the Uzumaki abilities, but neither had the intense level of control that Tsunade has, the ability that has made her legendary as a medic nin (from what Madara said about Hashirama's ability to heal himself, means he had an unearthly control over chakra, Tsunade had some of that mix in with the Uzumaki traits she inherited from her grandmother. She is a mix of both lines.

Another example- Terumi Mei was in the process of defeating Sasuke with ease when Zetsu surprised attacked her, but even that attack had no lasting damage on her, as we've seen.

Kishimoto uses those sexist words to expose and cut down sexism, the male characters who spout them promptly get defeated by female characters.

Tsunade against Madara? Tsunade stands no chance.

[merryGOflava]

Tsunade against Madara? Tsunade stands no chance.

to defend tsunade...none of the kages stand a chance.

so its not about her being a women....its just that madara is too tuff for anyone.


.....i think.....tsunade will die killing madara with her. (sealing him...whatever)

[FoolishYoungling]

to defend tsunade...none of the kages stand a chance.

so its not about her being a women....its just that madara is too tuff for anyone.


.....i think.....tsunade will die killing madara with her. (sealing him...whatever)

Being a women has nothing to do with it though. Madara... is Madara. Only Itachi, Naruto, Sasuke, Masked dude, and Kabuto stand a chance against him now.

[merryGOflava]

Being a women has nothing to do with it though. Madara... is Madara. Only Itachi, Naruto, Sasuke, Masked dude, and Kabuto stand a chance against him now.

tsunade CAN do it...with help

and thats where the kages come in.

help...and lots of luck.

kishi cant simply get away with having madara say "and your a women" and NOT have tsunade kick his deluded butt


i mean...if he did....thats just......sad.

[FoolishYoungling]

tsunade CAN do it...with help

and thats where the kages come in.

help...and lots of luck.

kishi cant simply get away with having madara say "and your a women" and NOT have tsunade kick his deluded butt


i mean...if he did....thats just......sad.

I said Tsunade vs Madara, not Tsunade and friends vs Madara.

[merryGOflava]

I said Tsunade vs Madara, not Tsunade and friends vs Madara.

oh well...i usually dont say the word impossible............but...yea i dont think she can do it...

maybe if the plot and stuff is on her side...:DDD

[ciardha]

Tsunade against Madara? Tsunade stands no chance.

The same was said about Sakura vs. Sasori. Yet Sakura won. Tsunade won't fight Madara alone though- it's already been emphasized time and again during this arc- fighting alone is the surest way to lose. Madara fights alone, he doesn't think anyone else is even a shadow of his worth, Hashirama was the only one he conceeds. We can see how Mito was able to play a crucial role in Madara's beatdown, it's absolutely obvious he totally underestimates women just because of their gender.

And yeah, the Uchiha definitely had a vibe of discrimination against even the women of their clan. The databook lists Mikoto as a Jonin level ninja, but it comes across like all the clan deemed her suitable for as a ninja was kunai training of her sons. And Mikoto was definitely subservient to Fugaku.

Contrast this to even the Nara clan, where while Yoshino may have chosen to retire from being a ninja (Chunin rank in the databook) when she had Shikamaru, we are made quite clear she's in no way submissive. Shikaku is quite comfortable with Yoshino having say with personal and household matters while he has the control on external matters. (This kind of arrangement wasn't unusual in Japanese households at the time Kishimoto was growing up in the 1970's and 80's.) Minato and Kushina's relationship is more reflective of the type relationships men and women in their 30's and 40's have in their marriages- much more a warm and close partnership, rather than the more rigid split in duties of the couples now in their 60's and 70's. (the 50 somethings fall somewhere in the middle of that, and because they created their families at the time it was shifting they tended to have more tensions in their marriages than those older and younger than them.)

[ramenanmitsu]

I advise you guys to read a different translation. Think it was shown in a site called narutobase or something. When I read the chapter on mangareader, I was annoyed because I couldn't understand the talk between Itachi and Sasuke. It was messy, to say the least. Itachi made Sasuke's life a living hell, Sasuke deserves answers from Itachi. But when I read a different translation it made much more sense. Itachi was going to explain the truth, when Sasuke interrupted him. Itachi also said, how Sasuke never listens.

Also, Madara didn't say didn't say, "You're a woman." He said, "You're a weak woman." He also didn't say, "weak are ugly". It was more along the lines of "weak are repulsive".
Anyways enough with the translation.

Am I the only one that thinks Tsunade is probably the strongest of the five kages? I mean Hokage is the main character's goal. I would expect the village the manga is centered around, to have the strongest leader. I also wouldn't think Kishi would make her alive this long for nothing. If I were Kishi, I would have killed her off at the Pein battle, were there no important upcoming battles for her(after all, there's Kakashi). Madara talking very low of her, isn't for nothing either. Reading so far, I do agree with him. And the more I agree with him, the more I would get surprised when Tsunade shows in battle, how worthy she is of a Hokage title.

And then, what about Itachi? It's still hard for me to believe Kishi made Itachi alive to defeat Kabuto. I don't see any reasonable answers to why he would make the dead defeat the second most important villain when he could have used current alive characters to do so. That's too much focusing on the dead. What about the will of fire?
I could understand if it were for the below two reasons.
1.) To fight with Sasuke and lose
This is to show how much stronger Sasuke has gotten before he fights with Naruto. It also buys time for Naruto, to finish his fight with Tobi first.
2.) To fight with Kabuto and lose
If one of the most reliable strong person is defeated by Kabuto, it becomes more devastating doesn't it? We really don't know how strong the new Kabuto is, and to pit him against Itachi is a clear way to see it.

What do you guys think??

[Phantom_999]

Well, considering that they just overpower through everything, it's really difficult to try and defeat them with other tactics.

Plus, at least most of the Kages have been fighting without rest. Oonoki most prevalent.

Also, I don't think that the modern shinobi are experienced in taking down these ridiculously powerful opponents.

Madara's Mokuton ability probably wasn't anticipated by the Alliance.

And really, the fact that Madara lived in such a turbulent period IS the reason that he's so powerful. Add to being able to use the Sharingan, he's probably mastered it more than any Uchiha due to constant fighting.

I know that. I'm not asking for them to annihilate Madara, or anything like that. Just for once I want the current generation no not be over shadowed by previous generations for some ridiculous skill that they lack and have strength/powers worth acknowledging by the old generation and won't bring up that "You're nothing compared. to whoever the hell I've fought in the past" for once. If One of Naruto's themes is about new generations surpassing the old why can't they not catch up to the old generation's pure fighting strength? that's all I'm saying. I know it sounds stupid but that's how I feel.

Nope, you are missing the point, Kishimoto has a dude make those comments then promptly get his ass handed to him or shown up by a woman. Starts with Shikamaru in part 1, he makes disparaging comments about women then gets his ass handed to him by Tayuya and is rescued quite easily by Temari. Because he is young and a heroic character he learns to respect women, including Sakura. Where he made a belittling comment to her face in part 1, in part 2 he clearly highly respects her, basically treating her as his equal.

Then you have Sasori make sexist disparaging comments to Sakura and Chiyo and promptly has to eat his words, as young and not yet at that point fully tested Sakura was, she destroys his puppets, fools him with her tactics, and he having thought he made himself immortal and unbeatable. Chiyo helps Sakura out, but as Chiyo says, Sakura does almost all of the fighting without her help.

Remember as well Tsunade is a suceeding generation (two) from Madara. Also remember as we discovered from Kushina's flashbacks Mito Uzmaki, Tsunade's grandmother played a crucial role in Hashirama's defeat of Madara. (and boy that had to stick in Madara's craw that a woman was the key to defeating him. Look how he absolutely pretends a woman, Mito Uzumaki, wasn't a crucial part of getting his ass kicked by Hasirama. Note as well- Mito Uzumaki had a forehead diamond- just like Tsunade does. Tsunade may have not inherited her grandfather's abilities, but she did inherit some of the Uzumaki- the high chakra reserve and control- enough so that she had enough with what was stored in her forehead diamond that she was able to save everyone still living in Konoha when Pain blew up the entire village. Mito and Kushina both had an extreme level of the Uzumaki abilities, but neither had the intense level of control that Tsunade has, the ability that has made her legendary as a medic nin (from what Madara said about Hashirama's ability to heal himself, means he had an unearthly control over chakra, Tsunade had some of that mix in with the Uzumaki traits she inherited from her grandmother. She is a mix of both lines.

Another example- Terumi Mei was in the process of defeating Sasuke with ease when Zetsu surprised attacked her, but even that attack had no lasting damage on her, as we've seen.

Kishimoto uses those sexist words to expose and cut down sexism, the male characters who spout them promptly get defeated by female characters.

Well I want to see Sakura surpass Tsunade or any other kunoichi in the series Although They say fans are saying he IS being sexist with his female characters for some reason.

Edited by Phantom_999, 01 March 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

I know that. I'm not asking for them to annihilate Madara, or anything like that. Just for once I want the current generation no not be over shadowed by previous generations for some ridiculous skill that they lack and have strength/powers worth acknowledging by the old generation and won't bring up that "You're nothing compared. to whoever the hell I've fought in the past" for once. If One of Naruto's themes is about new generations surpassing the old why can't they not catch up to the old generation's pure fighting strength? that's all I'm saying. I know it sounds stupid but that's how I feel.

Well, it's like this....Using video game RPG terms:

The Ninja of Madara and Hashirama's generation are all Level Over 9000 because they've leveled up so many times from fighting so many times.
Those who came after Madara and Hashirama may also be close to their predecessor's skill/power level.

The Kage (minus Gaara) and the older ninja alive to have been in the 3rd Great Shinobi War are probably just capping 1000.

The Rookie 12's generation aren't even level 100. Gaara himself may be midway between Rookie 12's generation and the Kage generation, along with people such as Neji, Rock Lee, and Sasuke. Though, Sasuke is far more powerful than his peers except for Naruto. I may have exaggerated with my 'power levels' but that's how I see it.

Now, Naruto is probably able to fight Madara with his Kyuubi mode, but he'll still need help anyway.

I'll repeat it again, this 'ranking' of sorts isn't to be taken seriously. Obviously, it's exaggerated, but it's to illustrate why I accept Madara's significant power difference from the 'modern shinobi.' Now, obviously I'm about to be proven wrong next chapter.

[ramenanmitsu]

Well I want to see Sakura surpass Tsunade or any other kunoichi in the series Although They say fans are saying he IS being sexist with his female characters for some reason.

I am one of the people who still thinks so. Do you think if Sakura was a guy, she'd still be getting as little focus as she is now? She'd fight against Pein like Kakashi and Naruto had(not the fodder summon), fight with Sasuke like Kakashi and Naruto had, fight with Edo's like Kakashi and Naruto had. There probably won't be a need for a Shikamaru role in the rookies, as Haruno "Sakuya" is enough for it.

I'd be SERIOUSLY pissed off, if all these talks about teamwork ended up in Sakura fighting alongside the rookies. She's already had enough of teamwork as it is!!