Shadow1275

 

You said the hug took place two seconds -after- not recognizing her, not at the end, or so that's how I took it. Re-reading it I see what you mean.

 

 What is with this "lose again" stuff? Normally i'm the snarky one, but I've kept to the respectful angle. 

 

And you can't compare soap operas to Star Wars from the perspective of those who don't like Soap Operas, to a scene in Star Wars. That's a little silly, because Soap Operas are an entirely different genre, (And such scenes work for them as well for those who do enjoy them). 

 

It's established why he doesn't recognize her, and what he did. It's also established from Sasuke's point of view the importance of Sarada. These are his own words. -He- says they are important. You are arguing that he is lying, but context shows it is genuine. Your argument doesn't work. It's also shown in context that he does care about Sakura with such words. 

 

 

I.E., for your argument to work, you have to call Sasuke a liar. Do you see that you can't get far with that? 

No I was specifically referring to the scene where after hugging Sarada, Sasuke didn't even give Sakura the time of day at the end. Granted I said 2 seconds before so I'll give you a pass on that bc it would be reasonable to assume that I was reffering to their first meeting. That was more an exxageration on the fact that he only met his daughter ten chapters ago. And it proves that Sasuke is still intimate, unlike how you claimed he wasn't "developed that way."

The comparison is simple. Han and Leia we can safely assume in TESB, care about each other which makes this moment dramatic

Sasuke and Sakura have none of this, making the claim that they "Love" each other laughable, like a soap opera. Star Wars  and Soap Operas are fiction, and they are both dramatic. So no you're wrong again.

Established how? And once again where does he show that he cares. Yes he cares for Sarada bc she is his daughter, that is established with his hug. But, Sakura gets diddly squat in return. There is zero intimacy there.

And no I never said Sasuke was lying, or even that he didn't care about Sarada. My point and I'll bold this because you seem to be struggling with it : SasuSaku has no foundation regardless of its canonicity

And so,

You have failed all of my tests, you have failed to produce one shred of evidence of intimacy between Sasuke and Sakura, screwed up my argument multiple times (For example, Oblivious vs. Obvious.), and even made wrong claims such as Sasuke not being intimate when he literally hugged his daughter and gave Sakura nothing.

and that's why it is ranked as one of the worst fictional couples in history. It makes no sense. It's canon, but it makes no sense:

https://www.thetopte...-canon-couples/

You have made no valid points and have proved nothing. And I'm done here.

 

 

 

Sigh, Sarada is not proof of their "Bond", Sarada is proof of their lack of bond. Sakura took care of Sarada her entire life. Sasuke didn't even recognize her... Because he has not seen her or Sakura in 10 years. Their is no bond, Sakura didn't even have a proper picture of her husband. Are they a couple? Yes. I already told you I didn't question their canonicity. But are they a believable couple? No

 

These are Sasuke's words. Why are you twisting it into their lack of bond? I think trying to put them in Real life is the error, because then you are opening a whole other can of worms and fitting events to match up. Things are done dramatically in work to make them more obvious. 

 

You can repeat that they have a foundation but you have failed to provide evidence as to their "Foundation." You have also failed to provide evidence that would convince a reasonable person, in light of everything else, that they do indeed even care for each other. All you repeat is speculations such as, "It was probably a big deal to Sasuke." But you have also admitted that you can't even produce one single photo showing romantic intimacy between the two. 

 

Because they are not like that. You are insisting that believability must have romantic intimacy, but does not Sarada's creation imply a moment of great meaning? This does not equate a foundation of a bond either. They are not really a functioning family due to Sasuke's absence, and that issue is explored in Gaiden, and if that is what you are addressing, that is fair.

 

Gaiden isn't even about reinforcing the SS relationship, and I think people miss the point if that's what they think it is about. It is about the bonds of family to a degree, but more so it is about establishing Sasuke's place in the world, and developing Sarada's, and coming to terms on how her father displays affection, which is really of a socially stunted individual. It sets up this contrast from Sasuke with Naruto, who despite his early issues, is very much an adult, and how he deals with his Hokage responsibilities. 

 

Wrong, the entire focus of gaiden is on Sasuke and Sakura's "Family". In fact the final panel even slams the message in your face that Sasuke and Sakura love each other and Sarada. The issue is that we don't see this "Love" anywhere in the manga, and it doesn't match up at all with their actions. It is why it is a lazy attempt, bc the author has to tell you that they "Love" each other instead of showing. 

 

​Which manga? The original or Gaiden? 

 

I would question Sasuke's emotional stuntedness as well, in fact that's bull. We've seen with Naruto and Itachi that Sasuke can be plenty intimate. Hell, in part 1 when Sakura doubted herself during the chunin exams Sasuke picked up on the social situation immediately and comforted her. 

 

The bottom line is that after the Final Valley battle in part 1, Sasuke dngaf about anyone besides Naruto, Itachi, and Sarada. He'll love Sarada bc Now he knows he has a daughter, but Sakura gets nothing, he could care less.

 

​I think you are way off on him not caring about Sakura. He gets some situation, but he has not fully developed on others, I.E., kissing for example, or checking in on family even. He is still socialy stunted.

 

You lose on this ground as well. The main issue that kicked off Gaiden's plot was Sarada not knowing who her father is. The entire focus is on Sasuke/Sakura/Sarada/Karin to question the validity of SS's relationship. The ending poorly establishes that they "Love" each other, and ultimately fails. 

 

​I think you missed the meat of the gaiden if you were distracted by the whole mom drama. It was about family dynamics. 

 

Depressed, Bored, and Obvious are pretty poor and inaccurate descriptors of the scene, by the way.

 

This is a stupid claim. Mine is backed up by evidence, this is not. The only one smiling is Sarada, Sasuke and Sakura are not. That and I originally said Oblivious, not Obvious. Try to be less Oblivious next time

 

​Oh, because not smiling and putting down a plate equals depressed, and bored is Sasuke. That is not the intention of the scene nor the narrative flow, even if you are getting those misreadings. 

 

Sasuke does not show intimacy because he does not display that kind of affection. Gaiden was more or less Sarada understanding that. Regardless if they've ever kissed, it would fit in with who Sasuke is, because he's not developed that way. 

 

This doesn't even make any sense. Sasuke is plenty intimate with people he actually cares about. He literally hugged his daughter (Who he just found out he had) 2 seconds before.

 

You lose on this point too.

 

This is incorrect. He did not hug Sarada at this point. 

 

 

Finally, Sasuke displeasingly kissed Naruto once, not sixty times. 

 

 

A poor joke, because you are equating numbers to be understanding. That it is one kind of destroys your point you are making. 

 

These are Sasuke's words. Why are you twisting it into their lack of bond? I think trying to put them in Real life is the error, because then you are opening a whole other can of worms and fitting events to match up. Things are done dramatically in work to make them more obvious. 

Lol, putting words into my mouth again I see. I never said that they weren't canon, but once again Kishi says but doesn't show. It's not even dramatic and that's the problem. Why do Ppl for example rag on soap operas? Not bc they like the love stories, bc they hate the love stories. Why? Bc they make no sense. Compare that to say han and leia from star wars:

The scene where Leia tells Han she loves him is dramatic bc of all of the build up and literal romantic moments beforehand. We aren't told even that Han loves Leia at all, but we don't need it bc we know from the previous scenes that he most likely does. Show don't tell.

But Kishi doesn't show us in the slightest that Sasuke loves Sakura. We are simply told that he does. If I told you for example that if I drop an apple it would rise up instead of falling down, would you believe me?

Because they are not like that. You are insisting that believability must have romantic intimacy, but does not Sarada's creation imply a moment of great meaning? This does not equate a foundation of a bond either. They are not really a functioning family due to Sasuke's absence, and that issue is explored in Gaiden, and if that is what you are addressing, that is fair.

If it is such a moment of great meaning, why does Sasuke not recognize his own daughter? In fact if she means so much to him why does he leave at the end?

She doesn't. He did not even recognize her. And you're really running out of straws to grasp here.  

​Which manga? The original or Gaiden? 

Both. Even limiting the scope to just Gaiden shows the lack of evidence that SasuSaku has any foundation behind it. He hasn't kissed her, he refuses to even poke her forehead, hasn't been back in 10 years. 

Oh, because not smiling and putting down a plate equals depressed, and bored is Sasuke. That is not the intention of the scene nor the narrative flow, even if you are getting those misreadings.

And you missread once again. The point is the lack of intimacy which you have failed to disprove.

This is incorrect. He did not hug Sarada at this point.

Note the giant Hug spelled out in bold letters. You lose again

A poor joke, because you are equating numbers to be understanding. That it is one kind of destroys your point you are making. 

I don't care about your lack of sense of humor  And no it doesn't. Especially when you couple that together with how Sasuke hugged Sarada and heck even his speech to naruto.

Sasuke is plenty intimate with those he truly cares about. Sakura just isn't one of those people anymore

 

The couple is not passionate as per normal, Sasuke would be a bit apprehensive of those pictures because that's not who he is. That doesn't make them less of a couple. That makes them a not normal couple, and they'll never be normal, ever. Sasuke is dealing with deep traumatic issues, and is more or less socially stunted. He'll grow, over time, but these are deep issues. Sarada though, is more or less the proof of their love and bond, as Sasuke points out. They did not marry because of her, as some would mis-interpret, more that she is proof of love. Proof of passion, and it was probably a big deal to Sasuke. There aren't any pictures to your standards of couple, which is why I didn't bother to produce any: That is not how the family dynamic works, Sasuke is not that sort of guy, and we're dealing with a fictional more Eastern world than Western. I was not putting words in your mouth, those were -my- words, and I was talking about how if SS was those pictures...there wouldn't be a Gaiden, and would be less interesting. 

 

Gaiden isn't even about reinforcing the SS relationship, and I think people miss the point if that's what they think it is about. It is about the bonds of family to a degree, but more so it is about establishing Sasuke's place in the world, and developing Sarada's, and coming to terms on how her father displays affection, which is really of a socially stunted individual. It sets up this contrast from Sasuke with Naruto, who despite his early issues, is very much an adult, and how he deals with his Hokage responsibilities. 

 

Depressed, Bored, and Obvious are pretty poor and inaccurate descriptors of the scene, by the way.

 

Sasuke does not show intimacy because he does not display that kind of affection. Gaiden was more or less Sarada understanding that. Regardless if they've ever kissed, it would fit in with who Sasuke is, because he's not developed that way. 

 

Finally, Sasuke displeasingly kissed Naruto once, not sixty times. 

The couple is not passionate as per normal, Sasuke would be a bit apprehensive of those pictures because that's not who he is. That doesn't make them less of a couple. That makes them a not normal couple, and they'll never be normal, ever. Sasuke is dealing with deep traumatic issues, and is more or less socially stunted. He'll grow, over time, but these are deep issues. Sarada though, is more or less the proof of their love and bond, as Sasuke points out. They did not marry because of her, as some would mis-interpret, more that she is proof of love. Proof of passion, and it was probably a big deal to Sasuke. There aren't any pictures to your standards of couple, which is why I didn't bother to produce any: That is not how the family dynamic works, Sasuke is not that sort of guy, and we're dealing with a fictional more Eastern world than Western. I was not putting words in your mouth, those were -my- words, and I was talking about how if SS was those pictures...there wouldn't be a Gaiden, and would be less interesting. 

 

Great pictures.

 

The thing is SS is -not- like other relationships, really, nor is really any relationship like these relationships. It's draw of interest is that it is -not- any of the above, though some may wish or make it out to be. 

 

The thing is Sasuke is not a good father, or husband, and these have never been argued to be so. But he is a father and husband, and the fact that he was going to end up with Sakura is well informed. 

 

The above are reasons -not- to like SS, but if SS was like the above, it would be probably boring. The dynamic of SS is of interest to read, because it is different, and has issues. You can certainly say that it is not a great couple because Sasuke is not there, but it makes sense on how it happened, or that it was going to happen. Your pictures are really why I -don't- ship it, despite it's fascinating working dynamic. 

 

However, to answer the question, the end of Gaiden, with them eating together, and finally, having a family picture together, more or less is fitting of a "family" picture. 

 

We also dont' definitely know if they never kissed? We certainly know Sasuke is not comfortable with public kissing ,nor really grasps it, which makes sense concerning his social development. But even regardless of this, the compelling point is that it is -not- like other couples, it could not fit any of the above, because Sasuke is really not a normal person, he is very stunted in that sort of growth, and that makes it interesting. But that also is why I don't ship it. 

 

Still, nothing post 700 really has to do with how they became canon, because the Manga more or less informs on that how. 

The thing is SS is -not- like other relationships, really, nor is really any relationship like these relationships. It's draw of interest is that it is -not- any of the above, though some may wish or make it out to be. 

Which proves my point, All of the above are romantic relationships. As you yourself said, SasuSaku is not like any of these relationships. I.E. it is not romantic. Yet we are told by Sakura in the above panels that it is supposedly a loving romantic relationship..... where they have never kissed, never spent more than a year together after getting "Married.", etc. What it draws interest from is irrelevant. It's not a romantic relationship. Canon relationships imply that the two parties are A. Romantically interested in each other. B. Have become exclusive to each other. 

Both of these is still one sided. Sakura is interested in Sasuke, but there is Zero evidence that Sasuke is interested in Sakura. Even if you based your argument on the post gaiden panels no sane person would assume these two were a couple. 

The thing is Sasuke is not a good father, or husband, and these have never been argued to be so. But he is a father and husband, and the fact that he was going to end up with Sakura is well informed  

Nope. In 693 he clearly states, "I'm not interested in her at all." You also failed to produce one Panel that matched any of the above romantic couple photos. I provided plenty for Naruto and Hinata and Naruto in Sakura. In fact, even if you take his attitude in 699 you can't infer that he's romantically interested in her. He bonks her on the forehead then ditches her again, just like his brother did to him. The only difference is he didn't try to kill her this time.

The above are reasons -not- to like SS, but if SS was like the above, it would be probably boring. The dynamic of SS is of interest to read, because it is different, and has issues. You can certainly say that it is not a great couple because Sasuke is not there, but it makes sense on how it happened, or that it was going to happen. Your pictures are really why I -don't- ship it, despite it's fascinating working dynamic.

Fascinating working dynamic??? Interesting to read??? Stop putting words into my mouth. I said it was a bad couple bc they aren't romantic in the slightest, not bc Sausage was never there. Sakura at best is a stalker who never cared about what Sasuke wanted. Sasuke is an abuser who attempted to murder her in 693 bc she told him she "Loved" him. Or when she tried to kill him to save him???

Sasuke is the worst part of Sakura's character. Get rid of her obsession and she would be a much more interesting person. It's shallow and garbage and the only reason it is used at all is to keep readers guessing who Naruto will marry in the end. 

However, to answer the question, the end of Gaiden, with them eating together, and finally, having a family picture together, more or less is fitting of a "family" picture.

I present Normal Family eating together:

Happy, engaged, Loving

SasuSaku Family Eating together:

We have Depressed, Bored, and Oblivious 

I present Family taking Photo:

Not the intimacy, caring, and giant smiles everywhere. Family is clearly tight knit and close

And SasuSaku Photo:

And I simply must ask in capital letters and bolded, not bc of you but bc of the blatant disregard by the writer: WHERE IS THE INTIMACY IN THE PHOTO FROM SAUSAGE?????????

And I will add that if we are talking the reasonableness of SasuSaku being canon, the evidence should be coming from Parts 1 and 2. There are zero photos that match any couples photos from Sasuke and Sakura from parts one and 2

We also dont' definitely know if they never kissed? We certainly know Sasuke is not comfortable with public kissing ,nor really grasps it, which makes sense concerning his social development. But even regardless of this, the compelling point is that it is -not- like other couples, it could not fit any of the above, because Sasuke is really not a normal person, he is very stunted in that sort of growth, and that makes it interesting.

They haven't kissed. 

In the first panel Sakura looks depressed after being asked that question. In the second panel she says she thought of something better. Then proceeds to forehead poke her daughter.

Why didn't she just say yes???

In fact, let's take that and apply that to my logical formula from earlier

Sakura is asked about whether she has ever kissed Sasuke + Sakura looks depressed then claims she got something better + Sasuke has been gone for ten years and hasn't returned + Won't even poke his own wife on forehead after leaving + Doesn't even recognize his own daughter.

When have they kissed and what evidence proves it???

And I'll tell you why it's not interesting. Arguably 99% of fictional couples, as well as 99% of real life couples do not poke each other's foreheads and consider that better than a kiss. They just Kiss. Even back during puritanical times, couples kissed. Why? Because its more interesting tongue wrestling than it is boinking each other on the forehead. If I want to plow a woman to kingdom come, I'm not going to boink her on the forehead, I'd rather boink her tongue. It's much more.... stimulating.

And if Sasuke didn't grasp public kissing.... what? Hasn't he snogged Naruto at least 60 times by now? I think he gets the implications.

Still, nothing post 700 really has to do with how they became canon, because the Manga more or less informs on that how. 

That's hilarious, so to what point did Gaiden serve then? The whole point of Gaiden was to reinforce the SasuSaku relationship bc most ppl call kitten on it. In fact the issue that set everything off in that story was the fact that even in story Sarada herself didn't believe that Sakura was her mother.

The irony is it only made things worse

 

Most of the above is post SS. Sasuke is wandering the world, is socially stunted, and isn't affectionate in many of the ways folk make him out to be. It has nothing to do with how it is canon, though, but makes the dynamic interesting.

 

The beginning parts are Sasuke as an antagonist. Largely ignored is that Sakura was intending to kill Sasuke from these arguments. Also largely ignored is Sasuke's change and the beginning of SS at 699. Which also largely ignored a whole other bunch of informed points that suggest SS throughout the manga. Like 693, and the random guy who went into Sakura's tent but Sakura thought of Sasuke. I mean, it didn't come out of nowhere. 

 

 

t was Jamestheguy, and even then, who cares? As long as they don't get carried away.

Logic + Reason = Accurate Conclusion

All Men are Mortal + Socrates is a Man = Socrates is Mortal

My statement was that I don't understand How they became canon

and each of those panels shows why. Sasuke not interested, never kissed once, Sasuke has no idea who his daughter is, Sasuke hasn't been home since he concieved with Sakura, Sakura doesn't even have a proper photo of him and instead places a Taka photo in between one of her and her daughter, Sakura can't even remember if he wore glasses.... Need I go on?

Point me to one other couple in anime just like this one. They make no sense and any reasonable person when given the above facts without being given the information that they are "Canon" would wonder if they were separated, divorced, or arguably that Sarada is actually Karin's daughter.

In fact: Here are some google images of couples with similar examples from Naruto

Sakura feeding Naruto (Post Kakuzu battle, Naruto was recovering from his new move wind style rasenshuriken.)

Naruto and Hinata (615)

Naruto and Sakura (Road to Ninja)

Naruto and Sakura (Post Pain.)

Naruto and Hinata (The Last.)

Sakura's special smile at Naruto (When Sasuke told Sakura that Naruto saved her from Gaara, Post time skip first reunion, post LOI arc, etc.)

If SasuSaku's foundation is so believeable, go ahead and show me One Panel in the series that matches any of the above images. And no, forehead poking does not count as romantic affection in pretty much all cultures

 

It was pretty well informed. What part is confusing?

How about all of the above for starters

 

I swear browsing the anti tag felt really good right now , not many cross tagger pro ending fans anymore.

https://www.tumblr.c...i boruto/recent

https://www.thetopte...-canon-couples/

I still have no idea how they became canon

Vader wins hands down. Now image Sakura doing that in rogue one when she's a sith in evil 100 star wars story. I feel like vader and the empire should invade the leaf village and curve stomp then making naruto and everyone look weak and vader takes Sakura with him to make her stronger and Sarada too.

I don't think it's possible to make her stronger. Post time skip, everything she did after Sasori really made her seem weaker.

She still wasn't over Sasuke and complained even after she promised to help Naruto bring him back during the first team 7 reunion. She did little to nothing against Pain. She gave up on her promise of helping bring Sasuke back in Land of Iron. She still had feelings for him in 540 even though she literally admits he's horrible to her. When he comes back she totally molests him with her eyes. 693 she literally committed character suicide. And even after he STILL LEAVES HER in the leaf village, after he knocks her up, abandons her to live in debt WITH HIS DAUGHTER, AND HASN'T EVEN KISSED HER, SHE IS STILL WAITING LIKE A DOG FOR A PAT ON THE HEAD??????

Fukk how pathetic can a person get??? I mean after Sasori, Sakura just becomes a pairing plot device. And I know that a lot of ppl take issue with her lack of fights, but in every regard, especially the pairing aspect where Kishi uses her the most, she ends up sucking it deep.

I loved her character before. She needed more fights (Or at least more involvement in fights.) But at least had she gotten over Sasuke she would have been a stronger character. It's why imo 693 really is revolting. It's like watching a suicide.

Sometimes I really wonder whether I should hate Kishimoto for drawing this chapter, or whether I should give him the benefit of the doubt and admire his symbolism. We've seen theory after theory of what happened. Comparing the quality of Boruto and direction with the quality of the War arc and it's direction, I wonder if Kishi was pressured into doing the war arc by SJ bc of Naruto's popularity and it was mainly Ikemoto who did most of it. 

 

I think it's important to note that everyone's career was on the line (Seemingly), and that it may have played as part of the motivation. 

 

He literally said walk out the door otherwise failing the test meant never becoming a Chunin period. The pressure was real even if the threat was not. 

And the fact that Sakura would put Naruto's dream above Sasuke and even her own is STAGGERING considering how she worshipped Sasuke in Part 1. There is no arguing that this is even remotely in support of SS. She was literally willing to defy Sasuke, who wanted to pass, in order to protect Naruto's dream.

And the build up of Naruto and Hinata is Laughable. Even as far into the series as the Last, Naruto still Loved Sakura and still pursued HER. In fact this fact is what made Hinata Mad in the movie bc Naruto wasn't even paying attention to her. It isn't until after a Pep talk from Suckura and a Genjutsu brainwashing montage where Naruto becomes romantically interested in Hinata. And to add insult to injury they completely forget the FIRST chapter of Naruto by making Naruto able to do Shadow Clones when he was 5 ("Saving Hinata from the bullies") when the first chapter was about him stealing a scroll that allowed him to make Shadow CLones specifically bc he couldn't even do regular Doppelgangers in Ninja School.

They literally crap on Chapter 1. NH/SS craps on Chapter 1.

Hmmm let's see Pedophilia, Check. Cannibalism, Check. What other Taboos can we hit on this list hmmm? Beastiality? Disfigurement? Brazilian Cake Farts? SMH how low the Mighty hath fallen

 

 

Okay. He came from a powerful clan and the series said so. Short of tying it into major plot threads, why is simply saying so not enough? Why did it need to do more? What does the series and characters get for doing so?

It pretty much destroyed the key dynamic of the series= Hard Work vs. Raw Talent.

The Superman Clan was always more Sasuke's thing. Naruto was just some idiot who didn't give up and learned by sheer perseverence. 

Then we learn that his father was the Fourth Hokage and his Mother was from some super clan with superhuman strength and stamina. Then we learned that Senju and Uchiha were descended from the sons of the Six sage.

I would have much prefferred Naruto being just some hard working idiot bc the way he worked around the talent gaps for the techniques he learned were actually pretty brilliant. Like when he learned the Rasengan in three days bc he used his clones to spread out the work. I didn't really like Naruto (The Character) until the Chunin Exam arc. That was when the Knucklehead started to win me over through his sheer willpower to push through.

Hell If I wrote Naruto I would have had him cast off the ninetails and use his own power so he'd be more in line of Minato. Fukk the whole Sage of Six Paths Prophecy Superman bull. Ppl like Goku bc he found ways to win using his own power, which he worked hard for. 

Just look at him, there's a Hero I can get behind.

Really the dynamic focused on Naruto was that Power given is easily corrupted. Power EARNED is respected. But into Part 2 however, we get the whole Six sage paths thing where The senju were masters of body and the uchiha got his eyes. This smashes the hard work dynamic. Though i still like Minato and Kushina.

I'm actually curious what would happen if the coup did happen and they overtook the village, how many innocent people would die, then killing the whole clan save mikoto would be the whole needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Cause the Uchiha leading this like the age of apocalypse combined with days of Future Past and the empire from epiosde 4-6 of star wars.

Well my guess is everybody dies bc that seems to be the MO of the "All-Loving" Uchiha. No Mercy from the MOST loving and Merciful I guess. Remember the Uchiha are all about extremes, I think that is really what Kishi was trying to go for. But the key point here is that just bc you're the most powerful or the most Successful, doesn't guarantee that your plan should be undertaken.

Sasuke and Obito had solid morals behind their plans, they wanted to replace the garbage system with a new system that would prevent the crap of the past. The problem was they were going to make you participate whether you liked it or not.

Naruto tossed around empty promises and did nothing. Though Sasuke's plan was to become so hated that he would unite ppl in hatred??? Then crush the rebellion and create a new world order??? Just stick to the Homoerotic subtext Sasuke. 

Well, we are to be believed that the "Will of Fire" and such was actually a norm and that the Uchiha were actually bad guys because we are to be believed that they are "ungrateful."

So we have two views in this series:
-What is actually is or should have been
-What the writers are trying convince us to believe and failing at.

By the way, this is random....,but
I am officially accepting that Might Gai is Rock Lee's father. Might Gai is probably absent minded enough to forget such a detail despite the obvious since he clearly forgets even the opponents he fights AND there is really nothing to say otherwise. We don't see Rock Lee's parents and the fact that they both share similar traits AND look alike AND are practically mirror images....it is not hard to imagine.

And hey, if everything else can be retconned....why not this?

Speaking of which, we are lead to believe that Salad is Sakura's kid because she supposed dresses the same and have Sakura's techniques...or some of then..

But Rock Lee is not Might Gai's kid...supposedly...despite being exactly the same in almost every way.

In the words of Private Jackson from Saving Private Ryan
"Hey, Upham, careful you don't step in the kitten!"

I consider Part one Will of Fire to be different than Part 2's. In Part 1 Sarutobi refers to the Will as the desire to protect the village bc the clans see each other as a family and it passed down from generation to generation. That's noble and fine, and can be stretched to include changing the system. It's simple, all Naruto has to say is that back when clans were constantly at war drastic measures were needed to keep the peace such as the Jinchuriki Mutually Assured Destruction policy. 

Now this was in no way perfect, but consider the fact that after the Third War there no real Great War between the nations. In fact they held the Gokage Summit to unite against the Akatsuki and didn't even need Naruto. Then he can say, but now it is time for a new solution. And allows the next generation to uphold the will of fire or define it their way.

Instead we essentially get sacrifice for the Will of Fire or else.

In part 1 Naruto rejects the definition of what the old tymers like Kakashi, Jiraiya, Sarutobi, Orochimaru, Tsunade, etc. all claim a Shinobi is and says things will be different under him. In most of Part 2 he continues this pattern, even winning over former enemies of the Leaf and promising to "End the cycle of hate."

But then when Sasuke meets the Kages Hashirama, the oldest of the old, gives us the line Shinobi are those who endure. Endure does not mean end, it means suffer.

There are other small patterns too. I don't even have to talk Pairings. Part 1 NaruSasu focused on their Acknowledgement, But also their friendship. In fact what made their fight so dramatic in Part 1 was their friendship. Sasuke even asks, "Why are you fighting so hard to bring me back." And Naruto answers, "Cause you're my friend."

In Part 2 the friendship part takes a huge backseat to the Acknowledgement part. It's like everybody just wants to hop on Sasuke's..... Lap  In Part 1, Naruto was justified in bringing Sasuke back bc Orochimaru was going to steal his body. But in Part 2 for example, Naruto has no reason for bringing him home, if he really cared about Sasuke he would either just Tnj him into giving up his revenge or just kill him before he mires his reputation further and falls further into darkness.

Seems like Yahagi is the key to all of this. Everyone says the series felt different after Pain/LOI

Underlined: Yet Karen kept the Umbilical cord, was in the Family Portrait, etc.

Here's a real zinger for you, Why in the Hell did Sakura go to Karen to help her birth her child when she had THE GREATEST MEDICAL NINJA IN HISTORY AND HER PAGE WHO STUDIED UNDER TSUNADE FOR YEARS IN KONOHA?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

In Gaiden, Sakura in one of the flashbacks is clearly shown to be pregnant with Salad, so Dafuq is she doing at Orochimaru's lair?

In fact why is Orochimaru being allowed to keep breathing when he is STILL STEALING PPL'S BODIES?????????????

In Japanese culture, the biological mother keeps the cord, then there's the "True End" named chapter. Make of that what you will.

Bolded: No no no, Might Guy and Bushy Brows got married, Might Guy eventually grew Pregnant and gave birth to a Beautiful Bushy Browed Boy who now trains under his father Rock Lee.

The thing about Uchihas and genocide is that not all Uchihas had the sharingan. So did the ones with unactivated powers turn corrupt? Was it a small minority of sharingan user in a larger crowd of normal Uchiha civilians? Or was it that most of them were sharingan users? We don't know - the manga doesn't tell us. Either way, wiping out the entire clan is still genocide. But if it's a primarily civilian clan with less than 10 percent using this insane superpower, then the massacre is especially cruel. It's a killing of innocents and villagers, not strictly military targets.

 

But indiscriminate killings were quite frequent early on (when the manga was still a little edgier) with the Blood mist stuff, Hanzo who killed off family members, and the example of the Whirpool village which was wiped out completely. Later in the manga, it was not so tied to actual history and brutal. So tend to think the Uchihas were not completely bad, no more than any of the other villages/clans that got wiped out. They just had some extreme power that was feared and desired.

 

As for that crap about Uchihas loving too much? I think that was just b.s. put in at the end of the story to make people feel sorry for the Uchihas. There's no point to it and it doesn't justify anything to come except as a ploy to make readers accept Obito and cleanse Itachi of his sins. It doesn't make people feel sympathetic for Sasuke, because he is never changed into a sympathetic character. It's a stupid, cheap ploy stuck in the plot. And it doesn't justify the genocide, because we know not all clan members had an activated sharingan, so not all clan members were a threat. Innocents were most certainly killed. And this plot twist doesn't excuse that. 

The Sharingan power fear theory lines right up with Haku's Kekkei Genkai story too. That was introduced in the land of waves, his father killed his mother bc she carried the gene if I remember correctly.

I buy the whole Uchiha Love wankering, it makes sense considering the only way to Awaken Mangekyo was stated in Part 1 to "Kill Your best friend." Love makes you stronger? Fine that makes sense. Even fits with Sasuke and how he was so strong bc all he cared about was avenging his clan. Though imo he really just cared about Itachi. He loved Itachi as only a brother can, and Itachi manipulated and tortured him. Hate isnt the opposite of love. I'll buy it Kishi.

But the whole, "Uchiha's love more than everybody else???" kitten. Part 1 Naruto was more loving than ALL OF THE UCHIHAS COMBINED. If Kishi wanted to exonerate Itachi more in the readers eyes he should have showed the Power Hungriness of the Uchiha and how their desire to protect and secure their clan's power was corrupting them. That's a solid angle that worked with Sasuke in Part 1 and one that ppl can buy. THEN you can have Naruto break this cycle by rebelling and instituting a better system. And it plays into the original idea: Naruto (Hard Work) vs. Sasuke (Handed Everything)

And there's no way anyone forgives Obito, especially after Pain SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO RESSURRECT AN ENTIRE VILLAGE TO ATONE FOR HIS SINS. Logically men don't destroy worlds when their loved ones die, they're more likely to destroy themselves.

The only way you "Justify" the Genocide is by admitting that the "Leaders"/System is BAD. Instead he tried to sweep it under the table as "Necessary Casualties that must be endured for the status quo"

Necessary casualties, and didnt his father, the LEADER of the coup, Say he was proud of him? 

And going back to that Haku Massacre thing, how is one Massacre Horrible and used for an example of how Shinobi are ppl and yet the Uchiha Massacre is somehow Acceptable?????    

Seems to be that the Uchiha were all scumbags in the first place who also didn't care about human lives. What Danzo did was horrible, but the Uchiha weren't exactly innocent either.

Also seeing how the Uchiha became your enemy even if you gave them all the love in the world. I mean, if we are to believe the love Naruto had for Sasuke and Sakura as well....and about every girl in the entire series....then Sasuke became a bad guy simply because he is a horrible person deep down.

Sasuke doesn't care. For a clan that many in this series claimed to be "all about love and loving too much," Sasuke is extremely apathetic to feelings of love.

Then again, this series doesn't make sense and any and all reasons Kishimoto has is pointless and moot. You have a clan that thinks revenge is the ultimate form of love in the world. The Uchiha are incredibly emo and gothic clan. Dark hair, lots of black clothing, red is the only other color including eyes....I bet they have a Konoha Hot Topic as well.

Although, to be fair, in real life it is not much different. The world is full of opposites.
Those who preach tolerance are usually the most intolerant.....and many other examples.

So I wonder, if you really look at real life...how many people in this world who some think are "good people" are actually scumbags who talk big, but are evil at heart? Probbaly most politicians....and CEO businessman....and...*goes trailing off for 3 hours listing hundreds of types of people*

The Uchiha were just as corrupt as the other clans, they were willing to pull a Coup for Political Power bc they weren't allowed to be Hokage. Not that oppressing them is the morally correct thing to do.

Why not just start your own goddamned Village if that's the case? Then you would always be led by an Uchiha of your own clan. The only real argument against this is that they would have no tailed beasts, but WHO CARES. The Sharingan literally Controls Tailed Beasts.

As for Sasuke he sucked and was an ass but he had a point about one thing: The village system is kitten.

The Hyuga clan's slavery, the forced Jinchuriki implantation into "Willing" sacrifices, the constant warring between villages, the infighting between clans for political power, child soldiers.

It's garbage, and a rebellion was required. Even Naruto lampshaded this again and again in Part 1 where he promised to change things for the better. Pity none of that actually happened.

so it seems the reaction to what trump is doing is either

A. blame the fake news media

or

B. impeach trump

or

C. blame hillary

(or the real answer swear undying loyalty to the putin russia government)

i guess there is no free thought left for america it's all about whether you are republican or democrat lol again what a kittening retarded country

Or maybe it's the typical reaction of Leftist governments. Hitler and the Nazis had the same M.O., they liked their book burnings too.

I told you before this identity politics is bullcrap. Thinking that your party are the good guys while the other party are the bad guys/evil is utter stupidity.

Politicians make promises to ppl in exchange for power and power corrupts. The more you centralize it the faster it corrupts and the more ppl suffer.

Rome, China, Russia, England, Spain, etc. Take your pic. Empires always collapse, Republics do not.