170 replies to this topic

[luffyq1]

[goldenarms]

I did love him as my favorite character . . . Until he apologized not for hurting Sakura, but for "everything I have done". Then everything that happens after that moment it is like he abandoned everything he believed in, including Naruto. Then Naruto just "returns this to you" in a way of returning a love letter to someone you are rejecting.

The reason the ending was bad was not because NaruSaku didn't happen. It was bad because everything the main characters worked for and all their development was DROPPED.

 

Naruto finally got through to Sasuke; Sasuke finally opened himself to interpersonal relationship; and Sakura's feelings were finally reciprocated. I'm not entirely certain what do you mean when you say their development was dropped; to me, they were all resolved.

 

Yes! Even if Sasuke genuinely wanted to get with Sakura the real him would've still never apologized for the things he did to avenge his family IMO. He might apologize for being a jerk to her but "for everything he did"? The Sasuke from all 697 chapters before wouldn't have taken back what he did if it was to avenge his brother and family. It's OOC how he completely regretted everything to her in one page.
My point: Even if SS happened Sasuke should've remained prideful and guarded after all the things he experienced. Did he have to go complete OOC?

 

Thing is, I don't believe he's apologizing for EVERYTHING he did, but everything he did (to hurt and deny her) specifically. Because quite frankly, Sakura already told him that she was a ride or die chick, just by dint of willing to leave the village with him, so anything that he did in the name of his family, that doesn't matter so much to her. What does matter, though, is how he had purposely treated her badly, even going so far as to try and kill her and hitting her with an illusion that had him "killing" her, all with the intent of severing his connection with her because he was afraid that attachments would have made him weak.

Edited by goldenarms, 04 June 2015 - 07:38 AM.

[Nar123]

 
Naruto finally got through to Sasuke; Sasuke finally opened himself to interpersonal relationship; and Sakura's feelings were finally reciprocated. I'm not entirely certain what do you mean when you say their development was dropped; to me, they were all resolved.
 
 
Thing is, I don't believe he's apologizing for EVERYTHING he did, but everything he did (to hurt and deny her) specifically. Because quite frankly, Sakura already told him that she was a ride or die chick, just by dint of willing to leave the village with him, so anything that he did in the name of his family, that doesn't matter so much to her. What does matter, though, is how he had purposely treated her badly, even going so far as to try and kill her and hitting her with an illusion that had him "killing" her, all with the intent of severing his connection with her because he was afraid that attachments would have made him weak.

He didn't do it purposely though, it was most likely his natural reaction

Sasuke just didn't really care for Sakura, the one from team 7 he still had a bond with was Nardo

Edited by Nar123, 04 June 2015 - 07:43 AM.

[goldenarms]

He didn't do it purposely though, it was most likely his natural reaction

Sasuke just didn't really care for Sakura, the one from team 7 he still had a bond with was Nardo

 

I would argue that he does; however, being Sasuke, it's not so easy to tell. The early Sasuke was easier to notice, since he and Naruto were supposed to be rivaling over Sakura. Part 2 Sasuke spent all of his time spitting hatred that it's easy to start believing what he's saying, that he doesn't care at all about anyone. But then his actions betray him -- when Sakura mounts an attack on Sasuke after Naruto, Sai, and Yamato got hit with Chidori Nagashi, Sasuke didn't immediately act against her, spending two panels looking at her. In that instance, I say that Sasuke had to take a moment to kill his own heart, to quote Haku, in order to fight/injure/kill Sakura. So, in that, he does carry feelings for Sakura, but his mindstate, he opted to pretend they don't exist to make her stop chasing after him. And, yeah, given all the stellar Uchiha family treatment Sasuke has gotten, can you say that doesn't make any sense?

[rocci]

 
I would argue that he does; however, being Sasuke, it's not so easy to tell. The early Sasuke was easier to notice, since he and Naruto were supposed to be rivaling over Sakura. Part 2 Sasuke spent all of his time spitting hatred that it's easy to start believing what he's saying, that he doesn't care at all about anyone. But then his actions betray him -- when Sakura mounts an attack on Sasuke after Naruto, Sai, and Yamato got hit with Chidori Nagashi, Sasuke didn't immediately act against her, spending two panels looking at her. In that instance, I say that Sasuke had to take a moment to kill his own heart, to quote Haku, in order to fight/injure/kill Sakura. So, in that, he does carry feelings for Sakura, but his mindstate, he opted to pretend they don't exist to make her stop chasing after him. And, yeah, given all the stellar Uchiha family treatment Sasuke has gotten, can you say that doesn't make any sense?

No, he doesn't have that feeling for sakura until 699.
No, he and naruto doesn't rivaling over sakura. It's called oneside love triangle for a reason.

Just like what most fan said, sasuke is honest to his feeling with the exception of naruto who play like tsundere in the end of manga.
When sasuke said he doesn't like something, he truly mean it.

[Nar123]

No, he doesn't have that feeling for sakura until 699.
No, he and naruto doesn't rivaling over sakura. It's called oneside love triangle for a reason.

Just like what most fan said, sasuke is honest to his feeling with the exception of naruto who play like tsundere in the end of manga.
When sasuke said he doesn't like something, he truly mean it.

 

Basically this...

[goldenarms]

No, he doesn't have that feeling for sakura until 699.
No, he and naruto doesn't rivaling over sakura. It's called oneside love triangle for a reason.

Just like what most fan said, sasuke is honest to his feeling with the exception of naruto who play like tsundere in the end of manga.
When sasuke said he doesn't like something, he truly mean it.

 

And yet, I think you're overestimating him as a result of his earnest nature and completely ignoring his actions, which do speak louder than words.

 

Because if Sasuke had no feelings for Sakura, he wouldn't have went out of his way to make Sakura feel better pre-Chunin Exams, as he didn't know that they had to be entered as a three-man team or not at all. He also wouldn't have flipped out seeing Sakura beaten up when he awoke under the thrall of the Cursed Seal, nor would she have been able to rein him in with a Cooldown Hug when he started going too far with his avenging. The time he informed her that Naruto saved her from Gaara is somewhat debatable, but looking at his face when she was smiling at Naruto does suggest that he was not happy about that turn of events. And most of all, he wouldn't have gave her that sly mischievous smile when he called her annoying the night he left Konoha, nor would he have thanked her before rendering her unconscious. You simply don't do such things for people you don't like, and not have put something toxic in their food or something.

 

So, um, yeah, I'm pretty certain that Sasuke does like Sakura; it's just that he's such a hardass about returning affections the world had to almost implode before he loosened his tongue even just a little bit because of the perception that he'd be weak if he accepted friendship and love over HAAAAAAAATREEEEEEEED. Unfortunately, that cold affection thing remains in character for him.

 

Thanks, Itachi. Thanks a lot.

Edited by goldenarms, 05 June 2015 - 02:17 AM.

[rocci]

Never said sasuke have no feeling to sakura.
I said sasuke doesn't have that feeling to sakura.
That feeling is romantic.
Because if he has, he will show it through his action.

Sasuke see sakura like a comrade/teammate just like he see kakashi as a teacher/senior superviser.
The only one who he saw differently is naruto.
Just like naruto never saw Hinata past comrade until after genjutsu scene in the last.

[Nar123]

 

And yet, I think you're overestimating him as a result of his earnest nature and completely ignoring his actions, which do speak louder than words.

 

Because if Sasuke had no feelings for Sakura, he wouldn't have went out of his way to make Sakura feel better pre-Chunin Exams, as he didn't know that they had to be entered as a three-man team or not at all. He also wouldn't have flipped out seeing Sakura beaten up when he awoke under the thrall of the Cursed Seal, nor would she have been able to rein him in with a Cooldown Hug when he started going too far with his avenging. The time he informed her that Naruto saved her from Gaara is somewhat debatable, but looking at his face when she was smiling at Naruto does suggest that he was not happy about that turn of events. And most of all, he wouldn't have gave her that sly mischievous smile when he called her annoying the night he left Konoha, nor would he have thanked her before rendering her unconscious. You simply don't do such things for people you don't like, and not have put something toxic in their food or something.

 

So, um, yeah, I'm pretty certain that Sasuke does like Sakura; it's just that he's such a hardass about returning affections the world had to almost implode before he loosened his tongue even just a little bit because of the perception that he'd be weak if he accepted friendship and love over HAAAAAAAATREEEEEEEED. Unfortunately, that cold affection thing remains in character for him.

 

Kishimoto himself said Sasuke is a honest, "pure", character that speaks what's on his mind

 

Besides

--You don't need to have feelings for a person to make said person feel better, just a little bit of empathy

--Sasuke obviously cared for Sakura in part 1 basically until he ended his bond with her at the end....

--He was not happy at the after gaara events because he was envious of Naruto's growth

--Sasuke's normal smirk = michievous smile?...LOL

--Thank you =/= I love you/ I like you

 

 

So no he doesn't like her, he doesn't even had a proper bond with her

If Kishimoto wanted to show that Sasuke likes Sakura he should've done a better job

 

What you're doing here is grasping at straws like every other SS fan does :/

Edited by Nar123, 06 June 2015 - 12:36 AM.

[Shadow1275]

[goldenarms]

 

Kishimoto himself said Sasuke is a honest, "pure", character that speaks what's on his mind

 

Except saying what's on your mind is not the same as sharing personal thoughts and feelings with others. It just means you're not one to sugarcoat a deal.

 

 

 

Besides

--You don't need to have feelings for a person to make said person feel better, just a little bit of empathy

 

Dude, Sasuke is a pure soul, remember? What the flip would he care about Sakura's feelings being hurt if he didn't like her on some level? Yet, he specifically went out of his way to not only make her feel better, he praised her as being the sharpest one in the group, despite her not even paying attention to what was going on at the time. Also, when Sasuke has empathy, he gets emotional, like when he brutally cut Sakura down for talking smack about Naruto's lack of parentage making him a spoiled brat, or more to the point, when he learned about the truth of the Uchiha massacre.

 

 

 

--Sasuke obviously cared for Sakura in part 1 basically until he ended his bond with her at the end....

 

If you have someone special in your life, I want to go to them and tell then that it's over. Then report to me just how easy it was to break bonds. Because, unless you're a sociopath, you cannot turn on and off feelings like a light switch (sociopaths don't even have a light switch to flip). You can make EXCUSES for why you're breaking up the band, but your real feelings are not so easy to change. In fact, he tells Naruto the same thing, of which Naruto wondered if they meant nothing to Sasuke after all. Then we have the "reading each other through a couple of punches" exchange which does cement one simple fact: they remain friends, despite all the talk about needing to break bonds and whatnot. Even in the end, their friendship was cemented, despite us not understand the two finger hold thing until like 400 chapters later, where it's explained in full.

 

And since then, Sasuke worked hard to shed his connection to Naruto and Sakura, once he learned that they had not bought into his words. Of course, Naruto had the meta-answer, hence, he could no more be shaken off than a bulldog once it's gotten a hold on you, and Sakura... I'm just going to chalk her up to stubbornness, Naruto belief boosters, and the little whispers of her own heart because I don't have an answer that makes sense to this Western mind --- an Eastern person may better understand her plight.

 

 

--He was not happy at the after gaara events because he was envious of Naruto's growth

 

I did say that one remains debatable. Naruto's growth had always been something he struggled with, ever since Wave. Of course, Sakura being impressed/regarding Naruto with new eyes also plays into something else, also from Wave -- the time Naruto asked Sakura for advice on how to work his chakra, and Sasuke embarrassingly trying to find out what did Sakura say to him. You can draw your own conclusions, but Naruto saw something he never thought he'd see before, and, eating it up, he refused to tell Sasuke anything.

 

 

--Thank you =/= I love you/ I like you

 

I'm going to have this line screencapped. For future usage. Mwahahaha....

 

Back on subject, the Japanese have a thing with certain phrases and words. As you can imagine, saying thank you/thanks to someone in the Western part of the world isn't going to evoke feelings of love or stuff. However, the pattern I've gathered from a lot of years of reading manga and dojins is that Thank you, while not explicitly meant to be interpreted as a romantic confession, does carry a certain amount of important weight when used in the proper situation with a certain someone. Like departure scenes, such as the one Sasuke has with Sakura. To compare, look at the departure scene of Rurouni Kenshin between Kenshin and Kaoru. Yeah, it's a little different, but in the end, he tells her, "Thank you for everything. I am a wanderer. Farewell." And you know something? Kaoru was the only person Kenshin told goodbye before leaving. He did not go see Megumi, Sanosuke, Yahiko, or anyone else: just her.

 

You can call it what you want, but in this, there is a deeper meaning to the words "thank you" in this sort of setting within the context of the Japanese language, of that, it's pretty certain.

 

 

 

So no he doesn't like her, he doesn't even had a proper bond with her

If Kishimoto wanted to show that Sasuke likes Sakura he should've done a better job

 

What you're doing here is grasping at straws like every other SS fan does :/

 

By whose standards, though? Because at last check, Masashi wasn't writing Naruto for North America, or Europe, France, Argentina, etc. etc. etc. He wrote for the people of Japan. Sure, he studied movies and films like Pulp Fiction, but the series itself is still based on the Japanese culture. For some reason, I think folks forget that, that the Japanese are not like the vast majority of the people on this site. And because they're not like us, there will be some cases of values dissonance creeping into view. Like teachers whacking students on the head for not turning in assignments. We can't even lay hands on our own children in America, no matter how many people they killed, and yet, Japan lets teachers break out a rolled-up Maxim to mete out punishment to slackers?

 

Far as "grasping at straws" go, maybe you should consider that you're too close to the material to be unbiased about anything before dismissing claims so out of hand.

Edited by goldenarms, 06 June 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[Toby]

What about Karin? 

 

Karin risked her life to save Sasuke- Sasuke risked her life to save Karin (He did the same for Sakura against Orochimaru, but Sakura hadn't done so for him) 

 

I think Karin had so much potential- sure she had to be a fangirl and that's a point that made so many fans hate her- but that's not her ONLY defining point. She had her reasons, she had a hard life after her village burned down and got adopted by Orochimaru and had cool Uzumaki powers and resembled Kushina and 

Naruto's and Karin's relationship could have been explored. She's his last alive relative. 

 

So many SasuSaku fans hate Karin and claim her feelings as "lust" and "not love," but you don't just RISK DYING to save someone you merely LUST for! And Sakura's never went as far as Karin did to rescue Sasuke's life!

 

(Forgot if she did so for Naruto though-)

(Although Sasuke attempted to kill everyone close to him)

Edited by Toby, 07 June 2015 - 02:28 AM.

[rocci]

@toby
Karin is not the last uzumAki.

[Toby]

But Nagato is dead :O
Plus she's the only Uzumaki at Naruto's age

[rocci]

But Nagato is dead :O
Plus she's the only Uzumaki at Naruto's age

The clan is scattered but not extinct, unlike uchiha or kaguya clan.
Kushina mention that after the destruction of uzumaki island, the people of uzumaki scatter around the world.

[Toby]

Ohh
That's cool
So there are still alive ones to this day, wow

[rocci]

Ohh
That's cool
So there are still alive ones to this day, wow

Yes, but don't expect kishi will explore it, since they're not uchiha even if they are the main character clan.

[goldenarms]

Yes, but don't expect kishi will explore it, since they're not uchiha even if they are the main character clan.

 

Well, not unless the Uzumaki clan tries to destroy the world.

 

And that just made me remember something else I was compiling...

Edited by goldenarms, 07 June 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Nar123]

 

1- Except saying what's on your mind is not the same as sharing personal thoughts and feelings with others. It just means you're not one to sugarcoat a deal.

 

 

 

2- Dude, Sasuke is a pure soul, remember? What the flip would he care about Sakura's feelings being hurt if he didn't like her on some level? Yet, he specifically went out of his way to not only make her feel better, he praised her as being the sharpest one in the group, despite her not even paying attention to what was going on at the time. Also, when Sasuke has empathy, he gets emotional, like when he brutally cut Sakura down for talking smack about Naruto's lack of parentage making him a spoiled brat, or more to the point, when he learned about the truth of the Uchiha massacre.

 

 

 

3- If you have someone special in your life, I want to go to them and tell then that it's over. Then report to me just how easy it was to break bonds. Because, unless you're a sociopath, you cannot turn on and off feelings like a light switch (sociopaths don't even have a light switch to flip). You can make EXCUSES for why you're breaking up the band, but your real feelings are not so easy to change. In fact, he tells Naruto the same thing, of which Naruto wondered if they meant nothing to Sasuke after all. Then we have the "reading each other through a couple of punches" exchange which does cement one simple fact: they remain friends, despite all the talk about needing to break bonds and whatnot. Even in the end, their friendship was cemented, despite us not understand the two finger hold thing until like 400 chapters later, where it's explained in full.

 

And since then, Sasuke worked hard to shed his connection to Naruto and Sakura, once he learned that they had not bought into his words. Of course, Naruto had the meta-answer, hence, he could no more be shaken off than a bulldog once it's gotten a hold on you, and Sakura... I'm just going to chalk her up to stubbornness, Naruto belief boosters, and the little whispers of her own heart because I don't have an answer that makes sense to this Western mind --- an Eastern person may better understand her plight.

 

 

 

4- I did say that one remains debatable. Naruto's growth had always been something he struggled with, ever since Wave. Of course, Sakura being impressed/regarding Naruto with new eyes also plays into something else, also from Wave -- the time Naruto asked Sakura for advice on how to work his chakra, and Sasuke embarrassingly trying to find out what did Sakura say to him. You can draw your own conclusions, but Naruto saw something he never thought he'd see before, and, eating it up, he refused to tell Sasuke anything.

 

 

5- I'm going to have this line screencapped. For future usage. Mwahahaha....

 

Back on subject, the Japanese have a thing with certain phrases and words. As you can imagine, saying thank you/thanks to someone in the Western part of the world isn't going to evoke feelings of love or stuff. However, the pattern I've gathered from a lot of years of reading manga and dojins is that Thank you, while not explicitly meant to be interpreted as a romantic confession, does carry a certain amount of important weight when used in the proper situation with a certain someone. Like departure scenes, such as the one Sasuke has with Sakura. To compare, look at the departure scene of Rurouni Kenshin between Kenshin and Kaoru. Yeah, it's a little different, but in the end, he tells her, "Thank you for everything. I am a wanderer. Farewell." And you know something? Kaoru was the only person Kenshin told goodbye before leaving. He did not go see Megumi, Sanosuke, Yahiko, or anyone else: just her.

 

You can call it what you want, but in this, there is a deeper meaning to the words "thank you" in this sort of setting within the context of the Japanese language, of that, it's pretty certain.

 

 

 

6- By whose standards, though? Because at last check, Masashi wasn't writing Naruto for North America, or Europe, France, Argentina, etc. etc. etc. He wrote for the people of Japan. Sure, he studied movies and films like Pulp Fiction, but the series itself is still based on the Japanese culture. For some reason, I think folks forget that, that the Japanese are not like the vast majority of the people on this site. And because they're not like us, there will be some cases of values dissonance creeping into view. Like teachers whacking students on the head for not turning in assignments. We can't even lay hands on our own children in America, no matter how many people they killed, and yet, Japan lets teachers break out a rolled-up Maxim to mete out punishment to slackers?

 

Far as "grasping at straws" go, maybe you should consider that you're too close to the material to be unbiased about anything before dismissing claims so out of hand.

 

1-Why would Kishimoto lie about something like that? That was the author's own interpretation of Sasuke's character someone who is "pure" not in the normal sense of the word but relating to how blunt and honest he is

In the story for example when he thought back in Konoha we've always seen Naruto at the forefront a lot of times Sasuke always said Naruto was the only thing holding him back, not Sakura, Kakashi, the rookie 9, only Naruto

Therefore it's easy to see that the only person from konoha he had an active bond (not a broken one) with, was Naruto

 

2-"Pure soul"...I guess you got the wrong meaning...Sasuke is only "pure" regarding to how honest and blunt he is. And once again in the manga there is no indication he liked Sakura as something above of a comrade, zero, indication, and I'm talking about part 1 because in part 2 it's obvious he doesn't even consider her a comrade or a friend anymore

Having empathy for a person doesn't necessarily means you like them in a romantic light

 

3-Sakura's love has no reason and sense even in the eastern mind, we had a friend here who was from japan and he hate everything SS standed for, it's a horrible and sick relationship no matter how you slice it. 

Also Sasuke didn't like Sakura romantically, futhermore his bond with her in part 1 was that of comradeship// maybe even friendship if you want to force it, it's clear that he managed to cut it easily his appereances in part 2 are enough of a proof, he had no qualms on trying to kill her multiple times, Sasuke bond with Naruto however was deeper, so it was very hard to cut through, Sasuke thought he had cut htis bond off too after the fight at the valley of the end but Naruto showed him wrong during the Kage summit arc.

 

It's no use trying to compare Sasuke's bond with Naruto with his bond with Sakura, one is far more shallow, the other one is deeper and it's part of the main theme of the story. If there is something that they have in common though is that both bonds were butchered by the author in one form or another.,

 

 

4- I've seen many SS shippers using this wave scene to somehow try to show that Sasuke has some feelings for Sakura, which frankly makes no sense, people only see this if they observe the scene with pairing glasses, the thing that happened is that Sasuke is far too proud to ask for help but he saw that Naruto got better after Sakura's observations, so he asked for them, he was too simply embaressed to be asking it in first place 

The scene in the Gaara aftermath too, I don't really think he is somehow envious of Sakura's new found admiration for Naruto, there is now way how, I mean Sakura at the time was still a devoted Sasuke fan girl who spent her free time not training but cutting apples and tomatoes for him (lol) , in that scene he is envious of Naruto's growth, as it was stated in the story by Kakashi...

 

 

5-Sorry, there is no " deeper meaning" ...thank you is just thank you...

Unless you are trying to imply  that somehow Might Guy's father ia somehow in love with the people that made fun of him...antd of course all the other times that Naruto's characters have said thank you to some other charactetrs...

lol

Sasuke was simply thanking Sakura for caring for him all this time, that scene was mainly there to show him cutting off his bond with her IMO 

 

6- And?

Naruto got famous world wide, and towards end it was heavily failing in japan...in fact there are a lot of htings that show that Kishi( and SP) tried to pander to western fanbase somehow with the last...

 

I guess you didn't know ( or forgot) that we actually had a japanese here with us for a time, he spends a lot less time here than what he used to but yeah most of us got an insight on how the japanese people to a degree ...and surprise they hated the ending ( and these last arcs- if the manga volumes number of sales is anything to go by ) too

 

Though I really didn't know what you tried to porve with this statement 

 

As for grasping at straws, well it's not a matter of being unbiased or no, it's a matter of grasping at minor things and making it out as a big deal, it's somehting that NH and SS ( pairing fans in general though) fans do all the time

Some of your arguments look a little alike to some of these pairing fans who constantly grasp at such straws

Going by the story itself there is no indication that Sasuke liked/cared for Sakura romantically in part 1 and even that his bond with her remained the same as it was in part 1 during part 2

In fact we in part 2 Sasuke literally didn't thought of Sakura outside of some team 7 things, he only indiviually thought of Naruto

 

So yeah, concluding saying Sakura liked Sakura romantically is grasping at straws, since the story didn't showed this at all. If this was teh impression Kishimoto wanted to pass to us ( tahat SAsuke liked Sakura all along) he did one hell of a poor job

[Nar123]

 

Well, not unless the Uzumaki clan tries to destroy the world.

 

 

It would certainly be more interesting than having the Uchiha try to do so for the 10th time