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#30021 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 08:40 AM

And I believe, I always say, he was suppose to do that but it was dropped for Hinata. Not helped that it wasn't much a focus before that. Too much focus on chasing after Sasuke and when Kishimoto tried to add some of it in he still tied to the chasing after Sasuke. The cycle of hatred. And even then it wasn't really explored or analyzed. But no matter what people think Naruto was never overthrowing/destroying the ninja system.

 

Still not sure why Orochimaru was kept alive other then someone dislikes the death penalty. Sasuke was never going to be punished for anything because Kishimoto refused to go into that part of the story. As for Obito since I reread his TNJ to him awhile back. He largely understood why Obito did it because at the time he still loved Sakura and Obito was Naruto if Sasuke killed Sakura, but he still felt that Obito had to return to the village and face any punishment because even he knows deep down what he did was wrong. And Naruto knows this because they are a lot alike.

 

Well, from what I understand, every child of the next generation are instant geniuses that instantly gain or learned all their parents secret techniques without any effort. That must make them better...in someone's mind. They can't show Naruto accomplished anything other then in the vaguest sense because what Naruto would do once becoming hokage was never really focused on. Not that they cared when it was needed to be focused on. Hell, if they focused on Salad even a bit she would be a great way to see what Naruto accomplish other then general peace. But again, they aren't even focusing on what Boruto wants to be but instead that Neo-SNS conflict and Kaguya's clan.

 

The fact most of the kids being geniuses also does a disservice to their parents in the long run, and how in a lot of ways, there's still a lot more that could have been done in the areas of Sasuke taking responsibility for his sins, just like Orochimaru should have died rather than being able to gain immortality and being left to his own devices. At least even for all he did, Naruto had respect for Obito because they shared a dream and he saw he wanted to make things right for his mistakes, especially when he learned Madara is the reason Rin died.

 

It just further shows how none of this makes any sense outside of just to sell this new generation.



#30022 Namaenash

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 10:39 AM

Not sure what's being debated. I suppose, whatever claims that was mentioned need to quote the actual source, even if it's in Japanese language.

Oricon has few layers of tracking, the weekly ones, the half yearly aggregate and the yearly aggregates.

So, if Sasuke Retsuden sold that much (300k, as some claimed to be), it would've been in one of these lists:

https://www.animenew...me-2019/.153766

https://www.animenew...me-2020/.159998

https://www.animenew...me-2020/.166846

I personally biased towards the weekly sales tracker as proxy metrics. It's similar like Box Office ticket sales. The first few weeks determine the overall lifetime revenue. Have a look at "your name" light novel sales trend as a comparison.


Just to close the case, turns out the claim that Sasuke Retsuden sold 300k copies has no basis and it has no accountable source.

https://twitter.com/...7019496457?s=21

Morale of the story: always argue from the first principle with the right, factual and trustworthy data. Otherwise one will embarrass himself/herself.

It is widely known that Sasuke Retsuden was one of the lowest selling products from Naruto franchise (16k copies before it's out of top 50 tracker). These are the data from Oricon that's been trusted by many.

Yet, they decided to adopt it as a separate manga product. Not sure if the producers were delusional, misinformed or desperate (since no other choice).

For sure, it will expose how many SS fans out there that contributes to the franchise financially through manga sales. I'm personally curious, but at least this SS manga sales will be a good proxy metrics to confirm how big (or how small) SS fanbase actually is.

We know for sure by now that NH+SS is not that big in terms of their financial contribution. I've been saying this many time, but I'll say it again: Naruto franchise is doomed the moment they take out NS out of the equation.

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#30023 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 23 December 2021 - 12:38 AM

Just to close the case, turns out the claim that Sasuke Retsuden sold 300k copies has no basis and it has no accountable source.https://twitter.com/...7019496457?s=21
Morale of the story: always argue from the first principle with the right, factual and trustworthy data. Otherwise one will embarrass himself/herself.
It is widely known that Sasuke Retsuden was one of the lowest selling products from Naruto franchise (16k copies before it's out of top 50 tracker). These are the data from Oricon that's been trusted by many.
Yet, they decided to adopt it as a separate manga product. Not sure if the producers were delusional, misinformed or desperate (since no other choice).
For sure, it will expose how many SS fans out there that contributes to the franchise financially through manga sales. I'm personally curious, but at least this SS manga sales will be a good proxy metrics to confirm how big (or how small) SS fanbase actually is.
We know for sure by now that NH+SS is not that big in terms of their financial contribution. I've been saying this many time, but I'll say it again: Naruto franchise is doomed the moment they take out NS out of the equation.


Not just that, but how the ending and Boruto subsequently have destroyed what made Naruto work-- the simple fact that while not too bright, he understood people and wanted to make things better than they were, in addition to how he refused to give up. All aspects he's lost...

#30024 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 23 December 2021 - 01:53 AM

Just to close the case, turns out the claim that Sasuke Retsuden sold 300k copies has no basis and it has no accountable source.

https://twitter.com/...7019496457?s=21

Morale of the story: always argue from the first principle with the right, factual and trustworthy data. Otherwise one will embarrass himself/herself.

It is widely known that Sasuke Retsuden was one of the lowest selling products from Naruto franchise (16k copies before it's out of top 50 tracker). These are the data from Oricon that's been trusted by many.

Yet, they decided to adopt it as a separate manga product. Not sure if the producers were delusional, misinformed or desperate (since no other choice).

For sure, it will expose how many SS fans out there that contributes to the franchise financially through manga sales. I'm personally curious, but at least this SS manga sales will be a good proxy metrics to confirm how big (or how small) SS fanbase actually is.

We know for sure by now that NH+SS is not that big in terms of their financial contribution. I've been saying this many time, but I'll say it again: Naruto franchise is doomed the moment they take out NS out of the equation.

The funny thing is that even if that 300K was true, that's only 100k more then Kakashi's light novel made on its initial release. Which is nothing compared to the light novels that start out as web novels and slowly work their way up make. Again, I think they just want to see how much SS is actually worth with the understanding that it should hopeful at least make around 16K in sales. With the hope that a manga will boost it slightly. Also, give some of their artists on staff that are not on manga right now some work. Which works for the artist since its it one its work, two to it shows of their art to an audience that will hopefully buy their next product, and three they can't be blame if it doesn't sell that much.

 

Didn't Naruto used to range around 2 million in sales during its prime? Now people are impressed by as well as bragging about a couple 100k?


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 23 December 2021 - 08:00 AM.


#30025 James S Cassidy

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Posted 23 December 2021 - 01:54 PM

The funny thing is that even if that 300K was true, that's only 100k more then Kakashi's light novel made on its initial release. Which is nothing compared to the light novels that start out as web novels and slowly work their way up make. Again, I think they just want to see how much SS is actually worth with the understanding that it should hopeful at least make around 16K in sales. With the hope that a manga will boost it slightly. Also, give some of their artists on staff that are not on manga right now some work. Which works for the artist since its it one its work, two to it shows of their art to an audience that will hopefully buy their next product, and three they can't be blame if it doesn't sell that much.

 

Didn't Naruto used to range around 2 million in sales during its prime? Now people are impressed by as well as bragging about a couple 100k?

Rising of the Shield Hero and Overlord come to mind


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#30026 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 23 December 2021 - 08:03 PM

Rising of the Shield Hero and Overlord come to mind

 

I can see that for making a light novel into a manga.



#30027 James S Cassidy

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 01:58 PM

 

I can see that for making a light novel into a manga.

We have Shield Hero which went from a Light Novel to Manga to Anime

Overlord went from fanfiction to Light Novel to Manga to Anime

One-Punch Man went from webmanga to manga to anime.

Seems most of the good stuff starts out as web creations or light novels


 


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#30028 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 04:36 PM

We have Shield Hero which went from a Light Novel to Manga to Anime
Overlord went from fanfiction to Light Novel to Manga to Anime
One-Punch Man went from webmanga to manga to anime.
Seems most of the good stuff starts out as web creations or light novels


Oh yeah, that's for sure, James!

#30029 Kagomaru

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 06:43 PM

We have Shield Hero which went from a Light Novel to Manga to Anime

Overlord went from fanfiction to Light Novel to Manga to Anime

One-Punch Man went from webmanga to manga to anime.

Seems most of the good stuff starts out as web creations or light novels

 

Just to clarify,  Both Overlord and Shield Hero were originally Web novels before they became Light Novels(Web Novels being considered a rough draft for novelists).


Edited by Kagomaru, 24 December 2021 - 06:47 PM.

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#30030 Nostradamus

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 10:05 PM

I still feel the original plan was that Karin is Sarada's mom, and that her super strength is from something else given Sakura had to learn it via Chakra control from Tsunade, plus how DNA tests are pretty damn accurate so Karin was lying to Suigetsu and to us. Which further shows how BS everything is now....

 

Super late to the discussion, but I've said this back when the ending came out, I'm 100% sure those kids were originally designed to be Naruto and Sakura's kid, and Sasuke and Karin's kid.

Kishi most likely already had the designs of those kids made and when he was told to switch the parents he just said screw it and couldn't be bothered to make changes.

Those kids belong to Sakura & Naruto and Sasuke & Karin, but we were told no no it's the other way around.

They took NS and SK kids, and sold them as NH and SS kids.

The ending was so rushed that they couldn't even be bothered to create new kids for their bs.


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#30031 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 11:50 PM

Super late to the discussion, but I've said this back when the ending came out, I'm 100% sure those kids were originally designed to be Naruto and Sakura's kid, and Sasuke and Karin's kid.
Kishi most likely already had the designs of those kids made and when he was told to switch the parents he just said screw it and couldn't be bothered to make changes.
Those kids belong to Sakura & Naruto and Sasuke & Karin, but we were told no no it's the other way around.
They took NS and SK kids, and sold them as NH and SS kids.
The ending was so rushed that they couldn't even be bothered to create new kids for their bs.


Not to mention the way they try to sell it to us with some things like Karin's lies to Suigetsu revolving around Sarada's DNA test and all that... as well as trying to shoehorn that crappy excuse into the anime.

#30032 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 25 December 2021 - 12:22 AM

Super late to the discussion, but I've said this back when the ending came out, I'm 100% sure those kids were originally designed to be Naruto and Sakura's kid, and Sasuke and Karin's kid.

Kishi most likely already had the designs of those kids made and when he was told to switch the parents he just said screw it and couldn't be bothered to make changes.

Those kids belong to Sakura & Naruto and Sasuke & Karin, but we were told no no it's the other way around.

They took NS and SK kids, and sold them as NH and SS kids.

The ending was so rushed that they couldn't even be bothered to create new kids for their bs.

The only original child for the ending was the daughter and she exist to say "yes, Naruto and Hinata did get together," since Boruto doesn't have any hyuuga traits.

 

Not to mention the way they try to sell it to us with some things like Karin's lies to Suigetsu revolving around Sarada's DNA test and all that... as well as trying to shoehorn that crappy excuse into the anime.

You are forgetting the crappy Gaiden where that was originally from.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 25 December 2021 - 01:24 AM.


#30033 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 25 December 2021 - 09:54 AM

You are forgetting the crappy Gaiden where that was originally from.

 

True dat, I am.



#30034 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 25 December 2021 - 04:15 PM

We have Shield Hero which went from a Light Novel to Manga to Anime

Overlord went from fanfiction to Light Novel to Manga to Anime

One-Punch Man went from webmanga to manga to anime.

Seems most of the good stuff starts out as web creations or light novels

 

speaking of one punch man james did you see the death battle with saitima and popeye



#30035 RulesofNature

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Posted 26 December 2021 - 03:59 AM

Just to clarify,  Both Overlord and Shield Hero were originally Web novels before they became Light Novels(Web Novels being considered a rough draft for novelists).

I think this just goes to show how the industry has changed. I mean, Shield Hero and others like it gain popularity before they are even being sold. The writers find an audience, which in turn allows them to adapt their work into a sellable product. They do this without any professional editors, guys saying that they need to do this and that in order to get it to sell. I mean, sure, you have cases like Shield Hero toning down the edgelord stuff from the web novel and adding arcs that stretch multiple light novel volumes (and trying to avoid the original ending fans disliked). Or Hamefura going from a parody of the "otome game-isekai" genre to the point where it's continued past where the web novel ended, has been downplaying the female love interests (though Katarina has always said she was straight), and is now at the point where Katarina is an honest to god otome game protagonist in our world with an upcoming game...You get the idea.

 

see:

 

Compare this to how Naruto started out. He was supposed to be the child of the fox until Kishi's editor told him to make him human. Then Kishi was told to add a rival and love interest. Then Kishi was told to skip the world building and team bonding in order to do a tournament arc. All Kishi brought was a very basic idea, one that WSJ turned into a vastly different project that sold gangbusters when it found it's audience. Even in the end, they were telling Kishi to set Naruto up with Hinata and lay the groundwork for Boruto.

 

But the point I got lost in getting to is I'd argue that with oldies like Naruto, it's about attracting an audience first and foremost via the guidance of editors, whereas a lot of modern projects fueled by the internet allow creators to have more freedom as they brought an audience with them to the editor.


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#30036 Phantom_999

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Posted 26 December 2021 - 02:03 PM

Just to close the case, turns out the claim that Sasuke Retsuden sold 300k copies has no basis and it has no accountable source.

https://twitter.com/...7019496457?s=21

Morale of the story: always argue from the first principle with the right, factual and trustworthy data. Otherwise one will embarrass himself/herself.

It is widely known that Sasuke Retsuden was one of the lowest selling products from Naruto franchise (16k copies before it's out of top 50 tracker). These are the data from Oricon that's been trusted by many.

Yet, they decided to adopt it as a separate manga product. Not sure if the producers were delusional, misinformed or desperate (since no other choice).

For sure, it will expose how many SS fans out there that contributes to the franchise financially through manga sales. I'm personally curious, but at least this SS manga sales will be a good proxy metrics to confirm how big (or how small) SS fanbase actually is.

We know for sure by now that NH+SS is not that big in terms of their financial contribution. I've been saying this many time, but I'll say it again: Naruto franchise is doomed the moment they take out NS out of the equation.

 

Doomed no only because NH and SS don't sell, but also because of that schtick that Hinata had to be Naruto's true love, the narrative and message was pulverized into powder. You REALLY see the indignation of the fans after "The Last". It was one thing if sales plummet after a bad decision, But I'm sure that the vast majority of fans left forever when watching "The Last" and then having their questions and concerns answered with "they read the manga wrong". No-one wants to support a fictional story franchise anymore if their dignity and emotional investment as fans had been trampled on.

 

 

 

Super late to the discussion, but I've said this back when the ending came out, I'm 100% sure those kids were originally designed to be Naruto and Sakura's kid, and Sasuke and Karin's kid.

Kishi most likely already had the designs of those kids made and when he was told to switch the parents he just said screw it and couldn't be bothered to make changes.

Those kids belong to Sakura & Naruto and Sasuke & Karin, but we were told no no it's the other way around.

They took NS and SK kids, and sold them as NH and SS kids.

The ending was so rushed that they couldn't even be bothered to create new kids for their bs.

 

Yeah it was sort of obvious. But well what can you do? What's done is done, now they have to reap the consequences of their actions. I'm just ridiculing their decisions now to my grave :kukuku: Although I'm not gonna lie, I'd have thought Boruto would have green eyes at least to truly be NS's child but who knows, maybe he did before they made Hinata the mother. Manga is drawn in black and white first so you'd never really know


Edited by Phantom_999, 02 January 2022 - 11:43 AM.

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#30037 Chatte

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Posted 26 December 2021 - 09:50 PM

Regarding the Retsuden novel, I've seen some points being made that they are super popular outside Japan, that they have been in top for sales on Amazon and Rakuten something something so that's why it's popular and in-demand.

 

Now I don't know what to say because I haven't been following the topic too closely. But even so, shouldn't this amount to something towards Boruto's popularity as a franchise?

 

From what I'm seeing, it keeps decreasing?

 

The way I've seen it, it's an attempt to somehow keep the franchise afloat by catering more to SS because from what it seems the NH family doesn't sell that much. 

 

Meh, anyway...


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#30038 sushi.

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 01:11 AM

About the 300k sales number. I wont believe it without a source but. The top sales list of 2020 is how many sales that year right. So if SR sold 300k from release - now it wouldnt appear on the list necessarily.

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#30039 RulesofNature

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 04:52 PM

Regarding the Retsuden novel, I've seen some points being made that they are super popular outside Japan, that they have been in top for sales on Amazon and Rakuten something something so that's why it's popular and in-demand.

 

Now I don't know what to say because I haven't been following the topic too closely. But even so, shouldn't this amount to something towards Boruto's popularity as a franchise?

 

From what I'm seeing, it keeps decreasing?

 

The way I've seen it, it's an attempt to somehow keep the franchise afloat by catering more to SS because from what it seems the NH family doesn't sell that much. 

 

Meh, anyway...

One of the thing about Japanese media companies is that they focus their attention on the domestic market, not the international one. A series can do good outside of Japan, but unless the Japanese are biting then they won't care. Like, think of Metroid. The series was riding high on the Gamecube with the Prime games as well as the GBA ones. At least, it was outside of Japan whereas Metroid was more niche there. This resulted in Metroid Other M, a game that was trying to make the franchise more appealing to Japanese audiences but put it into a coma instead. 

 

Japanese are going to make products for the Japanese, first and foremost. It's a long-standing mentality, part of why we have creators trying to fight attempts by Western distributors to tone down certain content (usually sexualization of minors). Hell, Toei refused to bow to Disney back in the day when Disney requested them tone down the violence in Sentai (Disney owned Power Rangers at the time), resulting in Disney trying to axe the franchise. Not to mention, cracking down on fansubs this year (they used to be pretty lenient due to how fansubs give them an international market, but then people kept plastering links on social media and put their copyright in danger. Of the two big ones, I thinkTV-Nihon is gone while Over-time is still translating sentai, just that they're not making mention of it on their site and expect people to just go to Nyaa).

 

Considering how NH and SS were done to appeal to international markets and ended up costing the franchise the domestic one, the Retsuden novels are probably not doing that much to help Boruto.


Edited by RulesofNature, 27 December 2021 - 04:56 PM.

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#30040 Phantom_999

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Posted 28 December 2021 - 06:39 AM

Again, funny how that DIDN’T apply to Naruto. Even regarding how they wanted it to be the The International sales Juggernaut they were hoping for, japan counted for at least 95% plus of the sales in the entire run of the franchise. I seriously think all of the Executives that LOVED Hinata heard what they wanted to hear from her overseas fanatics. They didn’t actually care how big Hinata was over seas, they just wanted to hear worshipping of her from like minded individuals I’m sure


Edited by Phantom_999, 28 December 2021 - 11:53 AM.

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