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#1 tricksie

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 02:23 PM

Kishimoto.... What the hell went wrong?

 

He had years to change the course of the story, develop new storylines and shift fans' support to one end pairing. And it's a backhanded verification to say that because NH was such a 'shocking ending' or 'climactic finale' or however they put it, NS must have been the OTP. It wouldn't be a shock or final twist if everyone expected NH to happen.

 

My theory is that several things happened in the end:

 

- Kishimoto signed over the story rights at some point, and probably before RtN - Just before RtN, the powers over him had not seen any commercial value in directing the course of the manga. But something changed with RtN. I think the success of RtN made them sit up and think a bigger, splashier ending would bring in more money and drive new fans back to the manga. 

 

- I think Kishimoto is much more jaded at 40 than he was at 22-24 when the manga started - In the end, Naruto did not reach his goals of the beginning. He did not get his first love, and he did not become the Hokage in his own fashion. Instead he is part of the cycle, and he is shown eating at his desk, drinking on the job and spending too much time away from his family. Basically a self-portrait of Kishimoto himself, as well as vast multitude of "salaryman" workers across Japan who work the same grueling hours and lifestyle.

 

- I think Kishimoto is rebelling against the way he's been forced to end the manga - By keeping the NS going strong then just slapping on an ending that was vastly different from the build up, I think Kishimoto was pushing back against the new direction of the series, in the only way he can. He continued to write/illustrate what he wanted and then gave them the ending they dictated so it would line up with the movie and new series. He's basically letting fans interpret what they want. 

 

- I think Kishimoto is rebelling against the fans - I think the leading interview questions, the clamoring otakus, the publicity circuit for an ending he wasn't please about and a movie he didn't create have left him bitter. I think he is answering whatever he feels like at the moment, and maybe even giving misguided answers if the interview questions are tremendously one-sided. Like if an interviewer asks something that might be flattering to Hinata, then Kishimoto answers with something unflattering. Because every interview has been flat and filled with semi-negative statements. These are not the glowing, effusive answers of someone who is pleased and proud of the outcome of his series.

 

- I think if Kishimoto had his way, then "The True End" would have been the end — Kishimoto loves his tragic stories. And I think he included that chapter in there, with that highly suspicious title, as a way of saying this is the way he would have done it. Sasuke and Naruto would have died in the end, just as Naruto predicted. The cycle of hatred would be broken by their deaths. The epilogue would have Sakura would mourning Naruto's death along with everyone else, while privately dedicating her life to continue his legacy, just as Konan had done. Hinata would have turned into a strong leader for her clan, using Naruto's nindo as her own. Karin would mourn Sasuke, who would now be seen as a redeemed hero for Konoha as well, then she be shown finding her own fulfillment. Then the next generation of would be shown carrying out their legacies. Every story in Naruto is a tragedy. Every story is marred by unfulfilled goals. This is what Kishimoto gravitates toward again and again. Not the romance, I think it's the happy endings he's bad at writing. So I think his 'true ending' would have been a loss of the hero, but the survival of his will. 

 

I don't think there's a magic bullet explanation. Instead there are a lot of puzzling actions and contradictory messages from this ending. 

 

Even the conclusion of the series is a lie! It's not actually ending, just carrying on in another form. So much so that at the end of the movie aptly titled "The Last" they say there's going to be another movie!! It's really crazy.

 

Ultimately I think there were too many cooks in the kitchen. There clearly is a huge difference between the tone of the manga, and the direction of this newly launched version of older Naruto and company. Kishimoto was closely involved in the series, and now he's just along for the ride with the new projects. 

 

Maybe at some point Kishimoto will speak honestly about what really happened. Maybe not. But I think his careless answers in interviews already speak volumes about how he feels about the end of Naruto. Whether he cared or not, it doesn't matter. It's been out of his hands and moving in this direction (toward the movie, etc.) for a really long time. And now I think he just wants to be done with it all.

 

Any other theories as to what went wrong, and when?

 


#2 ns.Believe.It

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 02:32 PM

I posted this in the theory thread some time back and my opinion remains the same--

 

Does it really matter why he did it ? Its not important if he was forced into it or bribed into it or whatever, The fact is Kishimoto ruined everything that he's worked so much for over the last FIFTEEN years. 

 

People will not remember the excellent parts of his writing in the series, what they'll remember is the way everything was destroyed in the end. Kishimoto failed as a mangaka, as simple as that. 

 

Naruto manga will forever be remembered as a 'what could've been' & 'what should've been' story. 


                                         tumblr_mzzew0nSyr1t3jjq1o1_500.gif

 

 

 

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#3 Nar123

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 02:42 PM

In my opinion, he just didn't care anymore
Its clear to me now that Naruto's quality came from the editors, they are the ones who practically made the entire story.

After his first editor(Yahagi) bailed out, Kishi was at the mercy of his new ones. These new ones that were probably trying to transform the story by the popularity, Kishi tried to fight this, if we go mainly by his interview in 2010 when he said that Sakura was honest in her confession, and he was going to try to turn her into a more heroine like figure and that he was bothered by everyone saying "hinata, hinata, hinata " at him.

In the end tho kishi didn't stand on his ground and just turned into a sell out

Edited by Nar123, 19 December 2014 - 02:43 PM.

                                  tumblr_obno1yoNj11suy1fso1_540.gif

 

                                                                         :eager:  Persona 5 hype     :eager:


#4 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 05:15 PM

 

Kishimoto.... What the hell went wrong?

 

He had years to change the course of the story, develop new storylines and shift fans' support to one end pairing. And it's a backhanded verification to say that because NH was such a 'shocking ending' or 'climactic finale' or however they put it, NS must have been the OTP. It wouldn't be a shock or final twist if everyone expected NH to happen.

 

My theory is that several things happened in the end:

 

- Kishimoto signed over the story rights at some point, and probably before RtN - Just before RtN, the powers over him had not seen any commercial value in directing the course of the manga. But something changed with RtN. I think the success of RtN made them sit up and think a bigger, splashier ending would bring in more money and drive new fans back to the manga. 

 

- I think Kishimoto is much more jaded at 40 than he was at 22-24 when the manga started - In the end, Naruto did not reach his goals of the beginning. He did not get his first love, and he did not become the Hokage in his own fashion. Instead he is part of the cycle, and he is shown eating at his desk, drinking on the job and spending too much time away from his family. Basically a self-portrait of Kishimoto himself, as well as vast multitude of "salaryman" workers across Japan who work the same grueling hours and lifestyle.

 

- I think Kishimoto is rebelling against the way he's been forced to end the manga - By keeping the NS going strong then just slapping on an ending that was vastly different from the build up, I think Kishimoto was pushing back against the new direction of the series, in the only way he can. He continued to write/illustrate what he wanted and then gave them the ending they dictated so it would line up with the movie and new series. He's basically letting fans interpret what they want. 

 

- I think Kishimoto is rebelling against the fans - I think the leading interview questions, the clamoring otakus, the publicity circuit for an ending he wasn't please about and a movie he didn't create have left him bitter. I think he is answering whatever he feels like at the moment, and maybe even giving misguided answers if the interview questions are tremendously one-sided. Like if an interviewer asks something that might be flattering to Hinata, then Kishimoto answers with something unflattering. Because every interview has been flat and filled with semi-negative statements. These are not the glowing, effusive answers of someone who is pleased and proud of the outcome of his series.

 

- I think if Kishimoto had his way, then "The True End" would have been the end — Kishimoto loves his tragic stories. And I think he included that chapter in there, with that highly suspicious title, as a way of saying this is the way he would have done it. Sasuke and Naruto would have died in the end, just as Naruto predicted. The cycle of hatred would be broken by their deaths. The epilogue would have Sakura would mourning Naruto's death along with everyone else, while privately dedicating her life to continue his legacy, just as Konan had done. Hinata would have turned into a strong leader for her clan, using Naruto's nindo as her own. Karin would mourn Sasuke, who would now be seen as a redeemed hero for Konoha as well, then she be shown finding her own fulfillment. Then the next generation of would be shown carrying out their legacies. Every story in Naruto is a tragedy. Every story is marred by unfulfilled goals. This is what Kishimoto gravitates toward again and again. Not the romance, I think it's the happy endings he's bad at writing. So I think his 'true ending' would have been a loss of the hero, but the survival of his will. 

 

I don't think there's a magic bullet explanation. Instead there are a lot of puzzling actions and contradictory messages from this ending. 

 

Even the conclusion of the series is a lie! It's not actually ending, just carrying on in another form. So much so that at the end of the movie aptly titled "The Last" they say there's going to be another movie!! It's really crazy.

 

Ultimately I think there were too many cooks in the kitchen. There clearly is a huge difference between the tone of the manga, and the direction of this newly launched version of older Naruto and company. Kishimoto was closely involved in the series, and now he's just along for the ride with the new projects. 

 

Maybe at some point Kishimoto will speak honestly about what really happened. Maybe not. But I think his careless answers in interviews already speak volumes about how he feels about the end of Naruto. Whether he cared or not, it doesn't matter. It's been out of his hands and moving in this direction (toward the movie, etc.) for a really long time. And now I think he just wants to be done with it all.

 

Any other theories as to what went wrong, and when?

 

The big question is, what actually went right? I mean, we had just an ending... not a happy one, not a fitting one, just a damn ending where we had too many people involved, and that just screwed over the characters as well as the fans, which is a pitiful shame.



#5 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 07:19 PM

Two things:

 

1) In hindsight, his prior editors deserved a lot more credit than we initially thought.

 

2) Kishimoto is an idiot.

 

That's all there is to it. People like to say he didn't care anymore, that he sold out or that he was overrided, but the slew of Pro-Hinata comments he's been giving (even ridiculous ones like killing Neji to make NaruHina happen or like Hinata's chest) suggest to me that he's speaking from the heart and that his prior editors were keeping his colossal stupidity (i.e. wanting to make Hinata a heroine) from influencing the work. I imagine that after the Pein arc, Kishi got a lot more creative control, which is why the series started going downhill on a 90 degree angle at that point. There's a reason Shounen Jump initially had low expectations about this manga. I mean . . .seriously, a story revolving around a kid eating ramen? LMFAO.


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 19 December 2014 - 07:24 PM.

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Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#6 narusaku256

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 07:42 PM

I talked this over with Ramen sometime ago and he said that it is not possible for shonen to force some manga writer into their ending. Especially when its a very very popular manga writer. Even Ramen had considered this possibility. But he said that famous manga writers cannot be forced to write an ending based on how others want. Shonen jumo cannot do that. He better illustrated his point saying that there was this one manga which was put on hold just because its writer was addicted to video games. Sj could do nothing until the writer himself wanted it....so....

                                                       tumblr_nokgzxLJ4A1ts94lmo1_500.gif


#7 SuperChief

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:25 PM

He capitulated to editorial pressure because he's a coward.



#8 Liu bie

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 12:06 AM

I think I know what went wrong. Now that I saw the poster for the promotion of JF. They or he  didn't think  in the fans, they could have a way to make good think for every fan, but they went with majority left others thinking will accept this.


Edited by Liu bie, 20 December 2014 - 12:07 AM.

                           tumblr_pjk2ly8zId1s1sw7fo5_400.gif

       

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#9 rocci

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 12:33 AM

I think I know what went wrong. Now that I saw the poster for the promotion of JF. They or he  didn't think  in the fans, they could have a way to make good think for every fan, but they went with majority left others thinking will accept this.

I agree with this.

#10 Narufan85

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 02:12 AM

Great post, Tricksie, and definitely a lot to think about. I've said this over and over here to the point of redundancy, but the ending is just such a slap in the face to fans, to the internal logic and precedent found in the first 690-some chapters, and the themes and parallels built up. I do think some of his comments reflect the fact that he just stopped caring. But either way, he's crushed his own work.

 

I've never really been involved in a shipping war until Naruto. I shipped HarryxGinny, but I love, love, love a good HarryxHermione fanfic. I don't remember seeing such vitriol and anger in the HP shipping wars. With Naruto, NH and SS fans don't even care about the internal logic of the manga. All they care about is, to paraphrase a Sawyer review, "Sasuke boned Sakura and Hinata f***ed Naruto." When THAT is the takeaway for a large part of the fan base, Kishi failed miserably.



#11 Nate River

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 02:54 AM

 

Kishimoto.... What the hell went wrong? I wrote Part 2.

 



#12 hinataiscreepy

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 04:37 AM

 

 

Kishimoto.... What the hell went wrong? I wrote Part 2.

 

 

 

I did "it" with Sasuke
 



#13 Nami

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 09:31 AM

 

The big question is, what actually went right? I mean, we had just an ending... not a happy one, not a fitting one, just a damn ending where we had too many people involved, and that just screwed over the characters as well as the fans, which is a pitiful shame.

 

LOL, agreed. The longer the manga want on, the less Kishimoto cared and the more everything went straight to hell.



#14 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 04:00 PM

 

LOL, agreed. The longer the manga want on, the less Kishimoto cared and the more everything went straight to hell.

 

It got worse somewhat after Pain/Nagato's defeat, and even WORST during the war at times, especially near the end. It's like he was like Obito and said "I really don't care anymore" and such.



#15 Nami

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 04:47 PM

 

It got worse somewhat after Pain/Nagato's defeat, and even WORST during the war at times, especially near the end. It's like he was like Obito and said "I really don't care anymore" and such.

 

Exactly. if you asked anyone when the whole story went downhill, they would tell you after the Pain arc. That's why I wasn't shocked at all when it was stated that it was after the Pain arc when he decided to make Hinata more important while dropping Sakura's development. It's like he went "okay, I just made the most awesome arc in the history of manga, so what should I do now? I'm kinda sick of all this praise so I guess I'll just test to see how much of a disaster I can make this manga. The fans won't care, I mean, I just read somewhere that Hinata was their favorite character so it's not like they have good taste."



#16 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 05:43 PM

 

Exactly. if you asked anyone when the whole story went downhill, they would tell you after the Pain arc. That's why I wasn't shocked at all when it was stated that it was after the Pain arc when he decided to make Hinata more important while dropping Sakura's development. It's like he went "okay, I just made the most awesome arc in the history of manga, so what should I do now? I'm kinda sick of all this praise so I guess I'll just test to see how much of a disaster I can make this manga. The fans won't care, I mean, I just read somewhere that Hinata was their favorite character so it's not like they have good taste."

 

Which is a damn shame if he just didn't care anymore. :-/



#17 Iwantbuns

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 08:05 PM

What went wrong? Lulz everything


tumblr_inline_miqmooGYSM1qz4rgp.gif

 

Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#18 hinataiscreepy

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 08:22 PM

Hinatards cannot see how Neji's death is a complete rip off from One piece. Its so effing obvious.



#19 Strangelove

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 10:17 PM

What went wrong?...more like...What didn't went wrong?


tumblr_mo8pka1E1T1qflb4co1_500.gif


#20 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 10:34 PM

Didn't that one interview pretty much confirmed that he's not really good at this and kept getting fail after fail with his work, until he hit jackpot with Naruto?




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