31585 replies to this topic

[BlackBird19]

 

Then how did the end pairing of NH not make sense to you? Really, of the final five, its pretty well established. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is actually quite untrue with many people here, because they are -very- focused on pairings from what I've noticed. I love discussing the writing in general.

 

That said, no the overall ending and NH makes sense and is well tied in through the development of its actual run, in the ending. The additional material adds into it, shows us moments in-between 699 and 700, and was a delight to hungry fans at the time. 

 

I'm happy to of course, detail why it makes sense (again), though to do so, you need to be more specific on why it doesn't. 

Wow you really didn't understand that first statement did you. That meant that most of us became Naruto and NS fans because of the source material and for no other reason.

 

As for the reason NH does not make sense to me is solely because at no time during the original manga were we truly shown any genuine interest of romantic affection or physical attraction from Naruto towards Hinata. 

[BlackBird19]

 

Okay, if this is what makes sense for you, then yes, in general, there isn't any romance in the manga, and their bond isn't really about physical attraction, as you'll note that Hinata never really displays that either. This on its own is rather shallow though, thus, the difference between this pairing and some of the others. 

 

So it makes more sense to me now why you didn't see it.

It's funny how you focused on the physical attraction part of my comment. Also you seem to disregard ShikaTema as a couple, considering the start of their relationship came from the appreciation of each other's minds.

 

Now let me ask you a question. If you disregard the Last and the Hiden novels, and truly look at the fact that the protagonist of the story winds up in a relationship with a woman he showed zero romantic interest in and spent very little time with throughout the entirety of the manga. All while showing said interest in and spending much more time with another woman for most of the story. Does that really, in all honesty make a whole lot of sense?

[Qia]

 

For the first part, that isn't Physical Attraction.

 

Now as for the second? The thing is, NH isn't driven by physical attraction, their love was about who they were as beings, rather than any physical traits. Hinata is a supporting character, so her time is limited, as we both understand, but that time accomplishes quite a bit, building up the relationship, supporting Naruto with encouragement or saving him, and there are a lot of panels of just showing Hinatas' feelings, really given attention, and this isn't done for no reason. It's really an intended message. The romantic aspects come later, but by all of their relationship build up, the showing that Naruto reacts intensely to what happens Hinata, I.E., he has intense feelings for, in other words, he is in love, it makes a lot of sense.

 

Naruto's attraction to Sakura, is shown as a crush, and is settled in the late 400s. 

 

The mistake is judging that physical attraction is the decisive factor, particular noting that our pairing was a one-sided crush, and Naruto understood well enough that Sakura loved Sasuke, and did not love him. There isn't an NS to work with ,or make the ending make sense with.

 

But there is an NH to work with, due to how their bond was built up.

Except....he wasn't trying to say it was driven by physical attraction or that it was a decisive factor. So...why are you arguing from that stance? 

[BlackBird19]

 

For the first part, that isn't Physical Attraction.

 

Now as for the second? The thing is, NH isn't driven by physical attraction, their love was about who they were as beings, rather than any physical traits. Hinata is a supporting character, so her time is limited, as we both understand, but that time accomplishes quite a bit, building up the relationship, supporting Naruto with encouragement or saving him, and there are a lot of panels of just showing Hinatas' feelings, really given attention, and this isn't done for no reason. It's really an intended message. The romantic aspects come later, but by all of their relationship build up, the showing that Naruto reacts intensely to what happens Hinata, I.E., he has intense feelings for, in other words, he is in love, it makes a lot of sense.

 

Naruto's attraction to Sakura, is shown as a crush, and is settled in the late 400s. 

 

The mistake is judging that physical attraction is the decisive factor, particular noting that our pairing was a one-sided crush, and Naruto understood well enough that Sakura loved Sasuke, and did not love him. There isn't an NS to work with ,or make the ending make sense with.

 

But there is an NH to work with, due to how their bond was built up.

 

That entire answer was given with pairing goggles on. Naruto is shown having intense feelings for any of his precious people that get hurt. Not just Hinata. Does that mean he's in love with everyone?

 

Also, Sakura is shown doing the same things for Naruto that Hinata is shown doing. She supports him, sheds tears for him, nurses him back to health, saves his life and is even willing to sacrifice for him in many more instances in many more panels. We're also shown how her feelings change for him. We're shown an actual developed strong bond. 

 

Naruto is so in love with Sakura that he is willing to sacrifice his happiness for hers (The promise of a lifetime).

She cares so much for him, not only is she willing to sacrifice her and Sasuke's chance at a promotion (the chunin exam written test). But she's actually willing to sacrifice Sasuke himself in favor of Naruto(the confession in the land of iron).

 

Plus, there is no panel in the manga that shows Naruto stopped having feelings for Sakura. None.

 

And again, there is no romance on behalf of Naruto towards Hinata until chapter 700. There is not one panel that says so in the previous 699 chapters. So NH really does not have that much of a leg to stand on. Not without the movies and the novels.

 

Except....he wasn't trying to say it was driven by physical attraction or that it was a decisive factor. So...why are you arguing from that stance? 

 

Because she's really having a hard time refuting what I'm saying. So she's trying to spin things as best as she can.

 

 

 

.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Personally I think the divide between @Analyzer and the rest of us is very simple. We are a forum made up fans that based all the importance of the story on the original source material, the Naruto manga and nothing else because that was all we had. 

 

The fact that NH and the overall ending is more thoroughly explained after the completion of the original manga, not during it's actual run, is why we will forever be in disagreement. The Naruto manga is supposed to be a stand alone piece. However, that's not the case because of the movies, novels and sequel mangas that were made to better explain the end. Something that good writing does not and has not ever needed. 

Exactly.

Extra stuff like that is supposed to enhance the experience of what was already provided in the main story; something to entertain without having to go back and constantly explain things and being able to focus on itself and its own story. By constantly (still) having to explain things, it's only proving more and more how severely lacking the main story was in that area(s) and not only makes the extra stuff not really fun or entertaining, but only exposes the huge flaws of the main story and makes even the main story less and less fun and entertaining itself.

I mean, it may not be exactly the same, but could you imagine if Marvel had started with the first couple Avengers films and then tried to "explain" stuff through the various standalone films (in a way, it's kinda what DC is doing)?
 

 

So according to Analyzer:

Her opinions = FACTS
Our opinions = opinions biased by the pairings

 

Huh, weird, especially since I already said I never  cared who Naruto ended with.    

 

 

 

That entire answer was given with pairing goggles on. Naruto is shown having intense feelings for any of his precious people that get hurt. Not just Hinata. Does that mean he's in love with everyone?

 

Also, Sakura is shown doing the same things for Naruto that Hinata is shown doing. She supports him, sheds tears for him, nurses him back to health, saves his life and is even willing to sacrifice for him in many more instances in many more panels. We're also shown how her feelings change for him. We're shown an actual developed strong bond. 

 

Naruto is so in love with Sakura that he is willing to sacrifice his happiness for hers (The promise of a lifetime).

She cares so much for him, not only is she willing to sacrifice her and Sasuke's chance at a promotion (the chunin exam written test). But she's actually willing to sacrifice Sasuke himself in favor of Naruto(the confession in the land of iron).

 

Plus, there is no panel in the manga that shows Naruto stopped having feelings for Sakura. None.

 

And again, there is no romance on behalf of Naruto towards Hinata until chapter 700. There is not one panel that says so in the previous 699 chapters. So NH really does not have that much of a leg to stand on. Not without the movies and the novels.

 

 

Because she's really having a hard time refuting what I'm saying. So she's trying to spin things as best as she can.

 

 

 

.

It's pretty standard of people who don't truly have anything to refute others' proof with - not only do they simply deny that proof while never providing any of their own, but they try to distract and move the goalposts. So rather than actually try to simply answer our questions (notice how she tries to go into some sort of attempted "intelligent" speak most of the time for even some of the simplest of questions) and actually provide proof of her claims, she tries to make the topic about something completely different out of nowhere.

[ThroughWithLove]

0/100, F, See me after class. 

 

Nah, what he needs is a refund on his tuition.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 14 August 2017 - 03:40 PM.

[BlackBird19]

The first part is a misunderstanding of Naruto. Naruto cares about all of his comrades, but his feelings for them are not equal. Many of his intense reactions, for example, the worst feelings he has ever felt, source from Hinata. This isn't pairing goggles whatever, I'm literally sourcing a passage here. Often this is returned with "Well, he'd have done it with anyone", but Jirayai died, Kakashi was dead, the village was destroyed with others dead, and none of them had caused him to do this. Not to mention Pa frog died in front of him, Ma Frog got shoved away, and he still didn't do this. It wasn't until Hinata was killed in front of him that he did this. 

 

The Second part is true, NS Development exists, but is explicitly shut down as being romantic development in the Land of Iron Arc, which you reference. 

 

This Arc tells us that the promise was not a burden to Naruto, and it had nothing to do with him about being so in love that he was willing to sacrifice his happiness, he wanted to save Sasuke too. The "So in love part" is factually proven wrong, in this very arc, and really, even in the moment, because he's not sacrificing anything?

 

The error with the Sakura side, is while she cared about Naruto, was being her trademark caregiver here, she didn't understand Naruto, or believe in him and his dream of becoming Hokage. But she didn't want him to be stuck as a genin forever.

 

It's not explicitly stated that the crush died at X time, but crushes naturally fade, the Land of Iron destroys the Notion of NS anyway, so its shown well enough that its not going anywhere, and that's all that's needed. Obviously, by the time we get to the end, we know this crush is gone. Fans can argue and speculate on the when as they wish.

 

Yes, there is no explicit romance with -any- pairing in the manga, except SS in 699, that's it. But there is plenty of development and foundation for that canon pairing, which points to the 700 conflusion. 

 

 

I actually respond to arguments line by line, and indeed, see above, point to examples in the manga. The goalposts aren't being moved, but of course, rather than argue the points, you are complaining about "intelligent" speak I'm slithering into. Classic conspiracy theory making. 

 

Or maybe I'm just having a discussion and using the diction I'm familiar with. 

 

0/100, F, See me after class.

 

 

So you're going to continue to use spin and speculation, along with your subjective view point rather than actually refute the evidence I gave you. Also, did you just utilize real world logic to try to explain the ending of Naruto's so-called crush? Because if we're gonna use such logic then I can truly pull apart the canon pairings. Most notably how no woman will wait 12 years for her man to return and no man will fall completely in love with a woman he has spent no alone time with. But I digress.

 

To your first point you have given one of the classic NH arguments ever given. Naruto never saw Jiraiya die. He did not see Kakashi die. He only actually saw one person die and that was Neji. That death caused him enough grief to nearly give up fighting all together. No, Hinata's near death is the tipping point not the most important factor. Had it been more important we would've seen Naruto checking on Hinata personally in the end.

 

To your next point chapter 457 refutes your claim that the crush has faded and the promise holds no weight. Chapter 693 even reiterates that Naruto has not forgotten the promise.

 

As for Sakura chapter 43 shows she refuses to let Naruto's dream of becoming Hokage die. A dream she is shown to have complete faith in as the story progresses. So in the end it's just pure speculation on your part of these discussion points.

 

Oh, to your point about SS, it suffers the same issues NH has. There is no reciprocation of affection on behalf of Sasuke towards Sakura for 698 chapters of the manga. None.

 

Now this is on a personal note. If you continue speaking to others members of this forum condescendingly i.e. grading their arguments, then I will no longer engage you in discussions. I have no time for someone who exhibits such narcissistic behavior. Good day.

Edited by BlackBird19, 14 August 2017 - 04:44 PM.

[ultranx]

 

If she says she ships NS, I believe her. And she has a right like any of us to be on here if she wants to.

 

I don't care what people like to ship tbh. Like whatever you want: NS, SS, NH. Anything that makes yourself happy as long as it's not hurting others.

 

Just, do not be so rude about it is all I ask. 

 

 

 

 

I agree, was just pointing out they act like they're a non shipper 700 posts later, yet she's the only non shipper stalking the site. heck most of the time it says I'm online that's just because I have it still open in a tab in my browser because of how  my firefox and chrome are set up, so that I can go back days or months later and see what I missed, but I'm not ever here 24/7 for an entire month constantly posting and bothering unwilling people with debates like this person 0.o heck majority of the posts after she first came here and I stopped replying to her I haven't read since I was in the hospital in july.

Edited by ultranx, 14 August 2017 - 05:00 PM.

[BlackBird19]

 

The grading point is a joke. It's the equivalent of saying "Good Day", except, I find it more humorous. 

 

That said, I did discuss your evidence, specifically how it does not support the conclusion you present. There isn't spinning and speculation involved.

 

Case in point: I pointed out that Naruto saw Pa Frog die in front of him, but notably did not turn into Nine Tails at this moment. If anything it's almost a similiar event with Neji's death, in that... he starts giving up. Hinata steps in, and when she is nearly taken down...Naruto just gives in to the Nine Tails. When he is back in his form, he is in great relief that he did not harm Hinata, and that she still lives. He thinks of the villagers, but he specifically thinks of Hinata, the only named individual. This refutes your "Naruto checking up on Hinata" point. 

 

Case in Point, the Land of Iron Arc refutes the Promise point you allude at 457, it discusses the entire issue and more or less settles the NS conclusion. 

 

Okay, somewhere, there are panels about 43, and Sakura in no way at that time believed in his dream, she calls it "impossible', even. By the end of the story, yes, she does, but not at that moment. 

 

SS does? You see Sasuke saving her in the Chuunin Exams Arc in the Forest of Death. But you are talking about physical affection, I presume, which no pairing really has that's explicitly romantic. 

 

The problem with a lot of pairing issues, is one, this is a Manga about Naruto, but its not focusing on his day to day life, or who he sees, it's focused on the greater plot points that revolve around his journey of really ,gaining acknowledgement, bonds, and cooperation, that two, it's not a romance, and there is no romance in the entire manga, bar 699. None. There's no serious romantic pursuit until 699 and the Last. But there's development and foundation of their relationships that build and point to that point, even if there's no explicit romance, there's a growing bond of love, but that love does not contain the love-dovey affection romance elements you ask about until the Last. But everything we see from 1-699 supports the leap of 700 of these two getting together, because of the bond that was built up between them. 

I still see speculation and a projection of your point of view on these moments. Hinata was physically the closest person to Naruto when he loses control. So of course his first instinct would be check if he hurt her as he had Sakura in the past. You're just projecting what you want to see on this moment.

 

In the land of iron, they discuss Sakura's feelings for both Naruto and Sasuke. A moment Kishimoto himself vehemently defended. They in no way, form or fashion discuss Naruto's feelings for her. Again, you're projecting what you want to see on this moment. 

 

Also, how many times did Naruto save Sakura, or vice versa. So that argument holds no weight. 

 

One more time, there is zero interest shown from Sasuke or Naruto towards Sakura and Hinata. There is not a moment either of the boys are displayed as being interested in having a relationship with the women they wound up with. And not just physically but emotionally. The same cannot be said in terms of our protagonist, Naruto, towards Sakura. But apparently it's okay to disregard this and say there is no romance in the manga. We are even shown the development of Sakura's feelings towards Naruto from disdain to deeply caring. 

 

Bonds and friendships were developed throughout the manga, far more so than romance. However some bonds developed more prominently and the one that received the most development, was the one discarded in the end. You used the perfect term for chapter 700. It was a leap. It was a leap of faith that the audience was going to accept the ending as it was. As you can see only some fans have accepted that leap as being sensible while others, such as myself have genuine reasons not to. This is why we will seemingly always disagree. 

Edited by BlackBird19, 14 August 2017 - 06:51 PM.

[BlackBird19]

 

The first part is not true, because he specifically thinks about the village as well, but the most specific and his relief goes to the fact Hinata is safe. This is not speculation, this is in the manga. 

 

This is a weird argument, because we know Naruto has a crush on Sakura from three, and Sakura is saying she wants to be with Naruto in the Fake Confession. Naruto's feelings are being addressed in this arc. Ultimately, he more or less rejects the notion of Sakura loving him, calling it a lie. I.E., NS's firm conclusion of it not going a romantic direction. It's not said when the crush fades, and you can state and postulate when that happened, but the tie up of NS really happens here. 

 

The next part doesn't work either, because we can say the same of Sakura with Naruto, I.E, there's no honest interest shown from Sakura to Naruto, further there is interest from Sasuke to Sakura shown at 699, and, if you like, we can go through the NH moments one by one to help you get that one. But you're right, there is no interest of forming a romantic relationship shown, until hey, the Last tells that story. But based on the NH build up alone, you don't need the Last, and 700 makes sense without it. Again, happy to illustrate that build up for you. 

 

NS wasn't discarded at the end, the notion of it being non-romantic was done earlier on. It was simply mis-understood or missed by some, and this some would rather explore possiblities of the medium, the fanbase, the anime company, as being wrong or out to do some scandal, than the simple possibility, that they missed details. 

 

His relief comes from the fact that everyone is safe not just Hinata. He thinks of Hinata because she was closest to him during his loss of control. History states that should be the case considering his actions at the Tenchi Bridge. You're projecting again. 

 

Next, Naruto speaks of his beliefs of Sakura's feelings during the confession. The entire confession is about Sakura and her feelings, along with her willingness to sacrifice Sasuke's life in favor of Naruto. That's kind of a big deal you keep glossing over. Which Naruto refuses to accept. That's why the chapter is named Sakura's Confession. You are speculating that this is the end of Naruto's feelings for her because it fits your narrative. 

 

You refuse to see any of the many thoughts and actions we were shown of Sakura's changing views on Naruto as her slowly taking an interest in him. Which includes several panels of her crying for him, thinking fondly of him or showing some form of admiration of him. It is the only possible pairing that is shown having some form of actual reciprocation from both parties. Because if you did that, then again it wouldn't fit your narrative.

 

You mentioned you went back and reread the manga to see if you missed something or could actually make sense of the end.The fact that you went looking for something lends very real credence that you lost your objectivity. You have convinced yourself that it was always there because you forced yourself to find it. Therefore you cannot be wrong and cannot even phathom the possibility that Kishimoto and his publisher may have changed their minds on the direction of the ending of the manga late in the story. An idea that is both highly logical and rather commonplace in storytelling.

[ThroughWithLove]

And not just that, but publishers and even writers often lie to the readers. How many times has Marvel and DC told us that X character was going to stay dead and never be brought back to life? Or how "things would never be the same" after the latest in a long line of pointless "big event" storylines? Hell, I remember the Code Geass producers assuring us that Nunnally was really dead after a certain event in R2, but anyone who watches Code Geass knows how that went! It's called promotion!

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 14 August 2017 - 08:31 PM.

[LuckyChi7]

From a fellow member of ours, PumyteH 

 

 

I remember coming across this a long time ago, but when thinking back to my explanation for NS and it made me wanna find some doujins for the two again after so long. Man I can't believe it's been 3 years since I last saw this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlackBird19]

 

No, there isn't a projection with Hinata, he -specifically- mentions her. He does not specifically mention anyone else. You supply that it is because she is closest to her, Naruto's rampage had the potential to impact more than just her. 

 

I keep reiterating that at no point am I saying that the Land of Iron is the exact point of when Naruto's crush dies, that you can speculate as you wish. This is the point when any possibility of NS from a reader's understanding dies. No, because this firmly establishes that Sakura loves Sasuke, and does not love Naruto, yes, Sakura cares for her friend, but it is not romantic. This isn't fitting of a narrative, this is what this moment shows.

 

The last part is silly? No, I didn't go back to convince myself it was always there, it -was- always there. The building blocks are there, and Kishimoto's statements about what he did more or less add up to them. The Author is the foremost point in what is and isn't in a story. For your narrative to work, you -have- to throw the Author, the manga, the studios, all of these other entities, as liars, and more or less, into a wild conspiracy theory. But maybe, and far, far more simpler and reasonable, that isn't the case.

 

Maybe, the error is in the individual. Because that is far more easier to do, than some wild conspiracy theory that just falls apart as soon as you poke into it. 

 

Well you just reiterated your Hinata point without even trying to tackle Naruto's recent history of harming those physically closest to him during his loss of control. The fact that he thinks of Hinata in that moment is proof enough to you that he already loves her despite not truly knowing her or ever spending any alone time with her. 

 

Then you do nothing to refute all the panel time I mentioned of Sakura's changing views and feelings toward Naruto. Apparently they're just there because he needed to fill panel time. Oh, and let's not mention that Kishimoto defended Sakura immediately after the release of the confession as her being an honest girl and more heroine like in that moment. A statement he made while still writing the story, not well after it's conclusion.

 

If those building blocks were truly there then this entire site would not exist. Backlash would have never reached Kishimoto to the point he had to actually acknowledge it and discuss it. No, the fan base would be much larger and far more amicable if those building blocks actually existed and I would simply be an outlier, not one of many.

 

However, basic reading comprehension and simple logic point to the fact that the story started and developed down one path only to veer off down another much later on. That does not make for a conspiracy theory. It merely takes notice that the author changed his mind, as is his right to do so for his story.

 

So which one of us actually made the most sense in the grand scheme of things? 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And not just that, but publishers and even writers often lie to the readers. How many times has Marvel and DC told us that X character was going to stay dead and never be brought back to life? Or how "things would never be the same" after the latest in a long line of pointless "big event" storylines? Hell, I remember the Code Geass producers assuring us that Nunnally was really dead after a certain event in R2, but anyone who watches Code Geass knows how that went! It's called promotion!

Yeah, it's done as a way to pump up peoples' anticipation for future events in the anime/manga/comic/show/movie/etc. by planting a single possibility, then it just grows from there among the people.
 

 

 

Well you just reiterated your Hinata point without even trying to tackle Naruto's recent history of harming those physically closest to him during his loss of control. The fact that he thinks of Hinata in that moment is proof enough to you that he already loves her despite not truly knowing her or ever spending any alone time with her. 

 

Then you do nothing to refute all the panel time I mentioned of Sakura's changing views and feelings toward Naruto. Apparently they're just there because he needed to fill panel time. Oh, and let's not mention that Kishimoto defended Sakura immediately after the release of the confession as her being an honest girl and more heroine like in that moment. A statement he made while still writing the story, not well after it's conclusion.

 

If those building blocks were truly there then this entire site would not exist. Backlash would have never reached Kishimoto to the point he had to actually acknowledge it and discuss it. No, the fan base would be much larger and far more amicable if those building blocks actually existed and I would simply be an outlier, not one of many.

 

However, basic reading comprehension and simple logic point to the fact that the story started and developed down one path only to veer off down another much later on. That does not make for a conspiracy theory. It merely takes notice that the author changed his mind, as is his right to do so for his story.

 

So which one of us actually made the most sense in the grand scheme of things? 

Like I said before, just distracting and moving the goalposts rather than actually provide proof of her own statements and claims (and no, "addressing" what people say is not "proving them wrong", especially without providing evidence to support the "address"). Just repeat the same things while declaring the beliefs, opinions, or even facts from anyone else that doesn't fit their narrative as "conspiracy", "bias", "favoritism", "false", and always accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of.

[BlackBird19]

 

This is problematic, because that recent history was not even part of the discussion? Nor does it help your point. 

 

1: Getting into that recent history, Naruto decides to stop harnessing that power because of the danger it can be for others, and he didn't think he'd be able to control it.  

 

2: Now enter the Pain Battle. Jirayai is dead, Kakashi is dead, villagers are dead, Konoha is destroyed. Naruto still does not use or give in to that power even when he is pinned down and about to have his tailed beast extracted. 

 

3: Hinata steps in to save Naruto, and is stabbed. Naruto's heart connects to Kurama without even thinking, you get text saying "The worst feelings ever felt", thus a very intense reaction compared to the former time. 

 

As for the "You do nothing to refute my claim!"

 

Um, because I agree Sakura's views change? She goes from thinking of him as a brat to genuinely caring. Their friendship is beautiful. 

 

But I am arguing your conclusion of them is wrong in being romantic, and cited evidence why. 

 

I know what interview you are talking about, and no, it does not say that Sakura was honest in that her feelings were romantic. That was explicitly dealt with on page. Yes, Sakura was going through honest reasons on why she shouldn't love Sasuke, but the truth is that she did love Sasuke. She was being heroine-like, in the sense of trying to ease a burden, but she did not understand that Naruto genuinely wanted to save Sasuke too, and her promise was not the cause of the burden, I.E., the crush had nothing to do with it. 

 

Further, why are we taking this piece as "Telling the truth", then taking the decisive Naruto and Hinata were always the plan interviews as "Not". This selectivity is dangerous. 

 

1. Recent history has everything to do with why Naruto did not want to harness the kyuubi's power due to the harm he caused Sakura. It plays directly into him worrying about what he may have done to Hinata.

 

2. Naruto comes in after the fact. He does not ever see in any of those deaths occur in front of him. However he is already highly angered and has nothing but vengeance on his mind during that entire time. Hinata being stabbed right in front of him is the straw that broke the camel's back. You cannot solely place all the emphasis on Hinata when she was not the sole reason for his anger. Again, you're just trying to fit it into your narrative.

 

3. Nowhere in chapter 437 or 438 is the text "the worst feelings ever felt". Perhaps you saw a version that had an editor or translator's note.

 

4. You apparently don't understand what a love triangle is. Which is what SNS is. This formula does not work if Sakura, the triangle's focal point is only shown having feelings for Sasuke and never having feelings for Naruto. These changing feelings for Naruto are highlighted multiple times throughout the manga. I don't think that was something done for kicks. Databooks from that period state very much the same thing. And don't you dare try to discount that databook when I've seen you utilize the Last's databook multiple times for your NH arguments. So who's actually being selective?

 

5. Your take on the confession is that since Sakura still loves Sasuke she cannot have feelings for Naruto. She is incapable of having feelings for both the men in her life. That she's outright lying to Naruto, which is the only thing you utilize as evidence to pass off all the Naruto and Sakura panel time we have as just friendship. Therefore you're denying that the love triangle ever existed. Something highly speculative that goes against the actual writing and images in the manga.  

 

Finally, I've always put more stock into interviews given during the creation process over those given after a project's completion. Mainly due to the author only discussing recent developments and burgeoning paths that the story is leading him towards. They always tend to be more truthful. Interviews usually given after the fact are almost always about spin and trying place your work in the highest light possible.   

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

Your...finally is frankly, silly. Because there's no more reason to spin things out in the middle of the story than there is at the end. At the end, everything is revealed, and you don't have to hide things. You can be -more- honest. 

 

But really, as readers, we should not put interviews in inequal stock as is. If we are going to use one, then we must also allow and equate the use of others as equal weight, because it puts the question of the material in use in its authenticity anyway. 

 

We're better off not conspiring and saying everything at the end is a lie that's said by the Author. 

This coming from the person who said that the OFFICIAL Databooks are not canon and are not to be taken at face value why also telling us to read  the Databook from The Last. How many times have you put your foot in your mouth while trying to make an argument??? Please stop it, for yout own sake, you're probably gonna destroy  your poor little jaw.

[BlackBird19]

 

1: Recent history shows him the extent of it, but this case is far worse and greater than past instances, hence, the form he took. No, largely, it is the event itself that has him worrying about Hinata. There aren't any flashbacks notably to the past, and the situation is within the context provided. Besides, the former was about choosing. This instance? He didn't even think about it.

 

2: This one is faulty, because this isn't fitting into my narrative, this is -the- narrative. Even Pa Frog dies, in front of Naruto, and it doesn't happen. We can speculate all we want, but what is 100% true is that Hinata was the acute trigger for him to use the Nine-Tails power. Nothing else on hand causes that. Nothing. This is why the "Well it would have happened with this person" doesn't work either, because, ultimately, we're postulating what if's. This is -what- happened. 

 

3: Please read the final page of the chapter Confession. "The worst emotions ever felt" is the exact wording. It's there, in Japanese Text, in the raw, and also translated on most sites for your convenience. 

 

4: There are many variations of the Love Triangle, and I'm well aware of what it is. The Team 7 Triangle is Naruto crushes on Sakura, Sakura crushes on Sasuke. That's it. The conclusion of that Triangle is that SS end up together, and Naruto settles with someone outside of Team 7. We are teased with the possibility that Sakura may also have feelings with the Naruto, but the ultimate revelation, which lines up with the constant sinking of NS, is that Sakura loves Sasuke. 

 

5: This fails, because Naruto calls Sakura out as lying. This is literally a sinking of NS, the dissolution of what you are postulating, that Sakura loves both Naruto and Sasuke. It's quite possible to love two people at once, and not debating this. But that Sakura does is not true, and explicitly stated as such by Naruto, and re-iterated later by Sakura that she does, indeed, still love Sasuke. 

 

Your...finally is frankly, silly. Because there's no more reason to spin things out in the middle of the story than there is at the end. At the end, everything is revealed, and you don't have to hide things. You can be -more- honest. 

 

But really, as readers, we should not put interviews in inequal stock as is. If we are going to use one, then we must also allow and equate the use of others as equal weight, because it puts the question of the material in use in its authenticity anyway. 

 

We're better off not conspiring and saying everything at the end is a lie that's said by the Author. 

 

1 & 2. All your doing is disregarding the arguments and forgetting that Naruto never purposefully lost control to the Kyuubi. The Tenchi Bridge scene shows him become so angry at Orochimaru he lost control. Solely at the mentioning of Sasuke. His four-tailed state was not done of his choosing.

Also, the fact that you disregard all build up to that moment with Hinata and solely place the emphasis on her denotes the bias you have now attained for said pairing.

 

3. It was an editor's note for the publisher. A tease for the next chapter as it is no longer translated since it is no longer needed to draw the reader in for next week's release. Kishimoto never wrote that. It's a common tool in manga and comic publishing.

 

4. Again, you disregard all panel time and development between Naruto and Sakura just because they didn't end up together. You place no emphasis on the bulk of the story, just the end game. That is where our main differences stem from. You believe in Kishimoto's red-herring explanation and write NS off as just a tease. When basic reading comprehension shows that's not the case and the story merely shifted directions. Something you apparently cannot wrap your head around as being possible.

 

5. Yes, Naruto accuses her of lying, which is true in the case of Sasuke. However, her actions show she has chosen Naruto over Sasuke in her willingness to live without the man she supposedly loves so much. It's not solely about saving Sasuke from himself since she also views him as a threat to Naruto's life.

 

And finally, we have to take all the interviews in as evidence as it is the only way to know what the author was thinking at certain times. The fact that these interviews at times have been contradictory, points to one simple fact. We cannot take anything he says at face value as we can never be sure what is truthful and what is not. Or as we say in law enforcement, since his statements aren't consistent, he's lying.

[VanitasDS76491]

From a fellow member of ours, PumyteH 
 
 
I remember coming across this a long time ago, but when thinking back to my explanation for NS and it made me wanna find some doujins for the two again after so long. Man I can't believe it's been 3 years since I last saw this. 
 

 

 
 

 

 

 
 

 

 
 

 
 

 
 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

That was beautiful and why I love these two.

[ThroughWithLove]

From a fellow member of ours, PumyteH 

 

 

I remember coming across this a long time ago, but when thinking back to my explanation for NS and it made me wanna find some doujins for the two again after so long. Man I can't believe it's been 3 years since I last saw this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good read! 

[BlackBird19]

 

1 and 2: Incorrect. Chapter 490 Refutes your point, as Naruto chose to rely on Kurama's power after Orochimaru's taunting.  And your argument doesn't even make sense, because I'm pointing out that each factor does not make Naruto go Ninetails, which he says, he does automatically, see chapter 490. Note I refuted your argument, again. But you have yet to refute mine. 

 

3: What are you talking about? This was not written on the side, this was written on panel. Regardless of who wrote it, it is stating a fact. Here, you are dismissing evidence to try to keep your point. 

 

4: To get your case right, on four, you'd need to demonstrably show NS Development. Panel Time does NOT equal development. Your position is faulty, because you have to notably classify many things as lies, notably the author, notably the manga, and notably, the interviews. You have not done this, but I would like to see it, because seeing a put together mold of what you classify as development would help me show you my point. You can do summary points, like 1: In this Arc, Sakura begins to see Naruto less of as a brat in this moment, etc. My position, and really, the manga's and the author's, is that NS development did not equate to a conclusion of ending up together, the ship was consistently sunk at such moments it could have gone that direction. 

 

5: She feels guilty for the burden she placed on Naruto. This is classic caregiving Sakura, nicely echoed in the Chuunin Exams as well. And here, too, she doesn't fully understand Naruto here. Had she followed this link, it would have made her love for Naruto and Sasuke shallow, as explained an interview, which...

 

6: First off, the interviews aren't contradictory, as they are still saying the same things, diction however, does differ on each. Secondly, if they are contradictory, why in the world are you using evidence from one? You cannot pick and choose, and then say this one is lesser, and this is following your logic. 

 

I'll do this one more time and then that's it. You and I just keep going in circles due to our vastly different ways we read a story.

 

1&2: You clearly didn't pay attention to my statement. "His four-tailed state was not done of his choosing." Also, you glossed over the portion of 490 that states the seal was at it's weakest during that point. Considering he lost control of Kurama's chakra after just a little bit of taunting at Tenchi Bridge, I should hope that he would lose total control after personally witnessing the apparent death of a friend during a state of desperation. 

 

3: It is a publisher's note and nothing more. If it actually held any real merit then it would've been placed on all published copies of Naruto. Also, it's placement by the publisher is very common in manga. 

 

4: The Naruto and Sakura dynamic is given more panel time in terms physical interaction along with their thoughts and feelings of each other than any other coed pair in the entire manga. That was initially done for a reason and the fact that you view this merely as teasing in the grand scheme of things, shows the great divide between us in how we utilize reading comprehension. So I don't need to go panel for panel for you as you hold no such importance for me to do so. You've already dug in your heels so why take my time for something so extensive when you have not done the same for anyone you've debated with.

 

5: I now know you don't grasp the importance of Sakura willing to sacrifice the man she loves for another man in her life. That's fine. No matter how powerful a message it sends in regards to her character and depth of her feelings for Naruto.

 

6: Now finally, I utilized that interview as a sarcastic remark considering how much stock you've put into them in the past. The interviews themselves have been contradictory and the fact that you defend them as just utilizing different diction shows you have no real defense for them. I will never use the interviews as evidence for the manga, I will solely use them to display Kishimoto's inability to consistently and thoroughly explain himself when it comes to the final product that is his manga.

 

It's been fun debating with you and I hope you haven't taken anything personally as I haven't. So I'll leave you with this last post and the moment to have the last word. Later.

Edited by BlackBird19, 15 August 2017 - 09:05 PM.