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Kishimoto's Portrayal of Love

Love Naruto Uzumaki Sakura Haruno Hinata Hyuga Karin analysis issues long rant

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#21 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:45 PM

As for what you said ... "girls more interested in love"? We're supposed to be satisfied with that? :down:
 
First of all, Sakura's not a 12-year old fangirl anymore. And secondly, this generalization of girls main focus being love in this series irks me very much. If a girl cares about love then okay, but you shouldn't make it so noticeable and overused when you compare it to the guys who mostly don't care about that. And you shouldn't have guys so wrapped up in their goals so much more heavily to the point the one they love is scarcely ever singled out or portrayed as special. This is very much the case for Naruto in regards to Sakura.
 
Why should Sakura revolve so heavily around Sasuke and more so Naruto? Why do her relationships with Ino, Tsunade, or even her parents have to get shafted in favor of her missing Sasuke or focusing so excessively over Naruto? It's very annoying, especially when you compare it to Naruto who has good coverage and importance on all of these and the one shafted is actually Sakura. No balance. No balance at all.
 
This isn't about turning Naruto into a romance manga. This about balance. Realistic, satisfactory balance between both girls and boys.
 
I don't want Naruto thinking about Sakura constantly. I don't want him to turn into a character like Karin and Hinata.And I don't agree with that fact that female characters revolve so much around who they love either. All of them should care about other things than who they love or in, Sakura's case, have more focus on goals she did establish (rivalry with Ino, being a strong kunoichi without reflection on her bonds with Sasuke and Naruto all the time, being useful etc.)
 
I know you don't particularly have a problem with romance subplot, KnS, but I do. I feel like it's unfairly uneven when it comes to girls and boys in regards to love and that generalizing all the girls as revolving so much around love is unsatisfactory. I know nothing I can say will change what Kishi does, but I'm just expressing my opinion. IMO, what he does with love is not good writing.

I agree a lot with this. I'm a big fan of Sakura, and I don't give a damn whether she's a male or female. I don't like a character because of gender. So it irks me to no end when a sexist mangaka like Kishi limit my favorite character just because said character happened to be a girl. Not to mention, Kishi's thoughts of 'girls tend to be more interested in romance' is inaccurate at best and a poor excuse of his to limit the female character's capacity.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 19 July 2014 - 11:55 PM.

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#22 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:54 PM

I agree a lot with this. I'm a big fan of Sakura, and I don't give a damn whether she's a male or female. I don't like a character because of gender. So it irks me to no end when a sexist mangaka like Kishi limit my favorite character just because said character happened to be a girl.

Agree, i think it's even worse with Kishimoto constantly rewriting the past.
Remember when earlier Kushina said that Mito-Uzumaki assisted on the fight against Madara and sealed the Kyuubi on herself and helped Shodaime.

Then on his own flashback showed Hashirama doing all by himself and letting the Kyuubi behind there not a single mention of her on his flashbacks she basically had zero importance on the villages politics.
Kushina was the same thing, it think it's impossible for her a jinchuuriki of the kyuubi being captured by some random Cloud Shinobi's that "kid" Minato took down so easily and Kushina was being trapped with a rope, it wasnt even seals or something to prevent her from using her Jinchuuriki powers but a rope that can be untied with a jutsu that Sasuke demonstrated on chapter 3.
I mean some stuff is really messed up.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 19 July 2014 - 11:55 PM.

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#23 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:01 AM

Agree, i think it's even worse with Kishimoto constantly rewriting the past.Remember when earlier Kushina said that Mito-Uzumaki assisted on the fight against Madara and sealed the Kyuubi on herself and helped Shodaime.Then on his own flashback showed Hashirama doing all by himself and letting the Kyuubi behind there not a single mention of her on his flashbacks she basically had zero importance on the villages politics.Kushina was the same thing, it think it's impossible for her a jinchuuriki of the kyuubi being captured by some random Cloud Shinobi's that "kid" Minato took down so easily and Kushina was being trapped with a rope, it wasnt even seals or something to prevent her from using her Jinchuuriki powers but a rope that can be untied with a jutsu that Sasuke demonstrated on chapter 3.I mean some stuff is really messed up.

Kushina is undoubtedly strong but Kishi decides to not show her power because he HAS to make Minato the one to do the fighting. And when Kushina appears, she HAS to be the one who talks about her romance with Minato, while Minato's appearance is always connected with badass fights.

And Mito, we know she must be REALLY strong but noooooooooooo, instead of getting a glimpse of her strength we have to bare the constant panels of Hashirama and Madara's sexual attraction they have with each other. Yuck!

I don't know how Kishi can be thought of anything but a sexist. And I know ppl are going to bring Dragonball whenever this argument comes up, but comparing him with a super-sexist does not automatically make him non-sexist. It only makes it less noticeable because Dragonball stands out too much in that department.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 20 July 2014 - 12:06 AM.

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#24 rocci

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:03 AM

@darkrest
I think mito seal Kyubi when hashirama left it behind.
Kushina is jinchuriki but not the perfect one.

#25 nikki1314

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:20 AM

I've been thinking on how Kishi writes romantic love in this series and the major differences between Sakura's, Hinata's, Karin's vs. Lee's and Naruto's "crushes". I don't believe Kishi writes things like this the right way and that all of these character's romantic interests, in some way or another, have a major issue with them. This is my analysis on it, particularly of Naruto's feelings later, and I'd like to see what you guys think. :)

 

First of all, there's Sakura, Hinata, and Karin. Starting with Hinata, she fell in love with Naruto so much to point she'd kill herself pointlessly to protect him, yet she's barely interacted with him this whole series. But every time we see her, we get her feelings shoved in our faces without any realistic basis. She doesn't know him that well and we usually mostly see her admiring him, yet she still pursues him and insists she loves him.

 

Next, Sakura with Sasuke. She fell for him very deeply but once again her love has no real basis either. Sasuke never acknowledged her and treated her with indifference most of the time. They've never interacted meaningfully and even though they were together more than Naruto & Hinata, he still never really opened up to her or did much for her as a real friend. Yet, Sakura made this unrealistically powerful love confession and gets heartbroken by Sasuke well after he leaves and even now a little bit. She "loves/loved" him and we're just supposed to take it without any real reason to.

 

And Karin ... I'll state my honest opinion. I apologize if it offends any SK shippers here. Her love feels shallow. We see Karin fangirling Sasuke's coolness, his looks, and a sexual appetite for him to point she nearly rapes him while unconscious. It feels very shallow and overly exaggerated comic relief until the Kage Summit Arc and 662, but the fact is we only ever saw all shallow feelings for Sasuke beforehand. How are we supposed to believe she loves him under circumstances like that? If a pairing's too much comic relief, then you can't take it seriously. Why does Karin really love him? Saying she likes his smile still feels shallow and if it's because he saved her, then that's hero worship. If it's going to stick around, I'd rather see her feelings treated a little more seriously (I don't know, like loving his personality) than overly exaggerated comic relief.

 

Most of the main Naruto girls focus is who they love while the boys who have romantic interests don't think about this even half as much. Even Lee, who people often compare to Hinata, is more likable and developed because he's not just his love for Sakura. He also wants to be a worthy ninja and make his teacher proud, rarely thinking about Sakura. Yet, for some reason, the girls focus more on love when they should be as well-rounded as them. It feels like an unfairly uneven scale. They should have more important bonds with more people and more focus on other goals instead of being with who they love or, in Sakura's case, figuring who they love.

 

Sakura is slightly different because she does have her own goals (she's the best developed female character in the series for sure), but she's not entirely free from this either. If I'm completely honest, most of Sakura's character is entirely taken up by her relationships with Naruto and Sasuke. She focuses more on them while her other goals/even relationships get sidelined in relevancy. Her bond with Tsunade isn't highlighted much and even her rivalry with Ino, that had a lot of potential, might as well not even exist in Part 2. Sakura's main bonds being her love relationships with Naruto and Sasuke isn't exactly a problem, but it is focused on too much. Naruto's the positive influence, but that doesn't mean Kishi can't be a little more flexible and give more focus to other bonds instead of just Naruto, Sasuke, and then more Naruto by Part 2.

 

Sakura's not pairing fodder like Hinata and Karin, but he still does make her revolve too much around love. Other goals and relationships are important as well, you know.

 

And now Naruto. Unlike with Sakura and Hinata, Kishimoto actually did well giving Naruto's love for Sakura basis and development. It wasn't instantly love and developed over the course of the series.  Naruto spent time with her, most of which was positive and not constantly comedic like Karin's feelings, giving his love for her more realism. It's easier to swallow than Hinata's love for Naruto or Sakura's love for Sasuke, contrary to what the rival fans/Sakura haters say.

 

However, there is one thing Kishimoto screwed up here and that's relevancy. Unlike Sakura, Hinata, and Karin, who are too love-oriented, Naruto's not love-oriented enough. I don't mean he has to constantly think about Sakura, like I said it's very important he has other goals and interests of his own, but he's so caught up in those it's easy to forget sometimes he actually loves her.

 

A SS/NH once told me Naruto's feelings aren't focused enough to be taken seriously and that they should be more like Sakura and Hinata (which I heavily disagree with, being that love-oriented is bad). But I do agree Naruto's feelings for Sakura should have a little more focus not because it's not genuine, but just so it flows right.

 

What I mean is Sakura's not often treated as special to Naruto. It's put on the same level of Team 7 in general and isn't often singled out as being particularly important to him the way Jiraiya, Gaara, Sasuke, and his parents are. In fact, more than any of those, she is extremely overshadowed by Sasuke who he always singles out; Sakura gets left in the cold. If he's meant to be in love with her, shouldn't she be singled out more than she is? His bond with Sasuke overshadows everything, even when Sakura's likely the girl he's going to marry and have children with someday. Now does that feel right to you? :confused:

 

Has anyone ever read the Percy Jackson Series? Percy had to travel through the River Styx that could potentially kill him and he had to think of one thing to cling on to to survive. And guess what that "one thing" was? Annabeth, the girl he loved. Not his best friend Grover, not his parents, not his half-brother, just her. It gave Annabeth status as the most important person in his life or at the very least singles her out and the depth of how much he loves her is shown and believable. It's not overshadowed or even clumped together with a bunch of other people.

 

Now try picturing that with NaruSaku. Can you honestly see it? As much as I believe NaruSaku will be canon, I can't. It feels too out of place. I see Naruto thinking of Sasuke alone or at least Sakura thrown together with all his other friends. She's once again gets no special treatment at all when she's supposed to be the woman he loves.  

 

Now does that scenario with Percabeth have to happen to Naruto? No. But it's still weird and badly written that Sakura's not one of his most important bonds when it comes to Sasuke or is at least put on the same scale as him. Naruto loves her. She shouldn't be shoved with the rest of his friends like she's not anything special. And I'm not even saying this as NaruSaku fan. I'm saying this as a writer in general.

 

I'm not saying Naruto doesn't love Sakura. I'm not saying any of the characters don't love someone any less. I just think Kishimoto could do a lot better portraying them when it comes to focus. He has no balance in his writing. A few characters either focus on their love too much and then some more characters focus on their love too little. It's because of this I truly believe Kishi when he says he's not that good at writing romance.

 

I hope I don't sound overly critical here. Kishimoto does have strong suits in his writing, but I have to say incorporating romance in characters is certainly not one of them.

 

Very Well Written,. I love the PercyBeth shout out XD. (Can't wait for October :) and yes, We all saw how Naruto's Love Grew and Developed and we all hope that it pays off.


-Naruto ending gets released- 

Kishi: Honey, I’m home! 

His wife:

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#26 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:38 AM

@darkrest
I think mito seal Kyubi when hashirama left it behind.
Kushina is jinchuriki but not the perfect one.

Two things, first off KIshimoto said first that she assisted Hashirama on the fight against Madara by sealing it on her.
On the flashback she didnt assisted since the Kyuubi was knocked down by Hashirama.

Second, she wasnt perfect but undoubtely she was way more advanced than Naruto, she had chakra chains as her own powers and she had knowledgement about it, she knew a lot of seals and was way better at handling the kyuubi chakra to Naruto until he figured out how to control it.
All the other jinchuurikis uses their bijuu's powers at some extent, the two tails knew how to transform into a bijuu, just like Bee.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 20 July 2014 - 12:39 AM.

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#27 CloudMountainJuror

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:04 AM

I agree a lot with this. I'm a big fan of Sakura, and I don't give a damn whether she's a male or female. I don't like a character because of gender. So it irks me to no end when a sexist mangaka like Kishi limit my favorite character just because said character happened to be a girl. Not to mention, Kishi's thoughts of 'girls tend to be more interested in romance' is inaccurate at best and a poor excuse of his to limit the female character's capacity.

 

Ino's dream world comes to mind. What does she see in her perfect dream world? Something to do with Sasuke, of course! Ugh.


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#28 Phantom_999

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:17 AM

I agree a lot with this. I'm a big fan of Sakura, and I don't give a damn whether she's a male or female. I don't like a character because of gender. So it irks me to no end when a sexist mangaka like Kishi limit my favorite character just because said character happened to be a girl. Not to mention, Kishi's thoughts of 'girls tend to be more interested in romance' is inaccurate at best and a poor excuse of his to limit the female character's capacity.

 

I agree it's a sexist portrayal But I don't think that makes Kishi sexist though. He portrayed some great, strong females too like Kushina, Konan, Tsunade, Mei, and Temari. It's it's how he protrays most adolecent females that irks me. not all teenage girl's are love struck puppies and and I don't like how he portrays Sakura and Ino plus Hinata (which appear quite often for side characters) as such.  


Edited by Phantom_999, 20 July 2014 - 01:18 AM.

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#29 rocci

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:18 AM

@darkrest
-I believe what you expect on panel that show mito performing the seal in hashi flashback. It will show eventually.

-Kyubi doesn't has secondary attack, it only has bijuu dama and high regeneration + big chakra. This just theory of mine, mito & kushina become a jinchuriki to contain Kyubi unlike naruto who expect to harness Kyubi power.

#30 Iwantbuns

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:49 AM

We're getting into the sexism thing again?


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Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#31 rocci

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:41 AM

We're getting into the sexism thing again?

Well can't be help, many expect sakura to has equal role with naruto since sasuke is naruto equal.

@title thread
It's rare for shonen hero manga to do what naruto do to sakura despite knowing that sakura love someone else.
If kishi follow school rumble scenario, expect open ending.

#32 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:38 AM

We're getting into the sexism thing again?

If you disagree, why don't you write YOUR own opinion on the matter instead of complaining? Some people took a lot of time and effort to write their posts. Also, for some people this topic is a first time thing. It might be 'again' for you but it's not 'again' for everyone.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 20 July 2014 - 03:56 AM.

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#33 xxRomanceGirlxx

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:42 AM

Since I've endured the Dragonball treatment of females just as much as most of us, I feel like I shouldn't complain about Kishi's treatment of women. I know Kishimoto will never be as bad as Toriyama where most of the females were reduced to housewives with the exceptions of Videl, but even she was extremely weak in comparison to most of the other characters. And Goku's relationship with Chi-Chi was rarely portrayed as important or meaningful to him. I honestly think the only female DBZ character treated more decently was 18.

 

I didn't want to start the argument of sexism again, but I do have to admit I was thinking that in my last post. It's not right for female characters like Sakura, Karin, or even Hinata to be entangled in romance. When you compare it to the guys, it's even worse because the difference is so noticeable.  Ino was slightly better, but her IT dream really does give a shallow and unsatisfactory feel to it.

 

But again, my main issue is balance. If the guys were as romance-centered as girls I'd probably still complain, but at least it'd be an even scale. The fact the romance focus for women vs. men is so one-sided makes it worse. Like I said before, if we go what drives Naruto most by what drives Sakura most, than it's much easier to say Sakura's the one that needs him more because she thinks about him more. The focus on Naruto's love for Sakura is erratic. It's enough for you to know he loves her, but not enough to see if it's particularly important to him. Which is ironic, considering the antis always say Sakura doesn't love Naruto.

 

Also, @rocci, Naruto's love for Sakura was never focused or singled out. We had some serious moments like the PoaL and the hospital scene, but it was overshadowed by Sasuke and still is. Even Kakashi said no one elses' opinion on Naruto mattered to him except Sasuke's (rooftop fight). Back then I could understand because Sakura never paid too much attention to Naruto the way Sasuke did in a weird way, but now I don't. Especially since Sakura's always the one doing things for him while Sasuke spits on everything Naruto cares about.  


Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 20 July 2014 - 03:44 AM.

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#34 Iwantbuns

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:58 AM

If you disagree, why don't you write YOUR own opinion on the matter instead of complaining? For some people this topic is a first time thing. It might be 'again' for you but it's not 'again' for everyone.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone...

 

I can see why some of it can be considered "sexist" but I mean it's a shonen manga what do you expect? I mean, Kishi obviously is making an effort to not make the girls "damsels in distress." They do have worth, and they can fight, they do have the determination needed in a character, and they are developed and focused on enough to make them interesting. Compared to a lot of shonen writers, Kishi is doing a fairly good job. Not the best, but... the girls have their own resolve and will to fight. Can't compare them to the guys, but I mean... they're okay.

 

It's slightly sexist, but I mean if you consider this sexist, then almost everything in our society is sexist. Girls are constantly being revolved around love in our culture, in today's shows, and music, and art.. Not saying girls are, but compared to guys, girls are more used than guys for being love-oriented. It's not just from Kishi. It's from a lot of things.

 

But that's of course MY opinion. lol


Edited by Iwantbuns, 20 July 2014 - 04:00 AM.

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Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#35 KnS

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:15 AM

I know you don't particularly have a problem with romance subplot, KnS, but I do. I feel like it's unfairly uneven when it comes to girls and boys in regards to love and that generalizing all the girls as revolving so much around love is unsatisfactory. I know nothing I can say will change what Kishi does, but I'm just expressing my opinion. IMO, what he does with love is not good writing.

 

That's cool, and you express your opinion very well -- if I may say so.  You're very persuasive, I just can't agree.
 
If I had a complaint about Sakura it would be that Kishimoto has not given her enough page time.  But I don't find fault with his characterization of her, nor do I find her to be "unfairly" or "unsatisfactorily" focused on love. She was in the beginning, sure, but she got past it.  
 
During the time Sasuke and Naruto were both gone, Sakura didn't spend her time pining or daydreaming.  She became very strong.  She didn't need the company of either boy to feel complete or live her life.  Even now, during the war and the events leading to it,  she has been focused on being a significant contributor to the alliance and assisting Naruto in any way she can.
 
I don't think she has been bogged down unrealistically with romance, or been portrayed as being more reliant on the boys for personal meaning and purpose.  IMO, this is especially true considering her original feelings for Sasuke (and later, Naruto) are the pivotal component to how Kishimoto is keeping up the mystery of how the romance(s) will be resolved.  
 
And I think that may be the point.  As early as #3, Kishimoto set up the triangle of Naruto --> Sakura --> Sasuke, then later introduced Hinata's worship of Naruto.  He established these interests and their resolution as something that would span the length of the story.  To continue adding fuel to the fire, Kishimoto has to occasionally bring up the feelings behind these relationsips.
 
That falls primarily on the girls since Sasuke has no feelings, and if Kishimoto were to make Naruto's love and devotion to Sakura any more obvious or repetative he couldn't sell even the remote possibility of NH to readers.  Therein ruining the suspense.
 
And really, if as the hero Naruto were to be more focused on love, there would always be readers who would complain about that being unrealistic.  There's absolutely no question that he is Sakura-centric whenever possible.  In fact, Kishimoto has gone to great lengths to show us that Naruto is Sakura-centric to the point of sacrificing his own feelings.  He just doesn't focus on it because he's had, you know, a few other things on his mind.  Not much point in winning the girl if you lose the world. Or die.
 
In any event, I personally prefer to be careful (and sparing) when throwing around the "bad writing" label.  Just because I don't like or can't identify with a writer's creative choice or direction -- or characterization -- doesn't mean it's "bad writing."  
 
In a case like this manga, Naruto is a unique universe where Kishimoto can make the norm for how girls act or react to love to be anything he wants. He could make their skin purple with yellow spots if he wants.  On top of that, there are cultural differences and language differences across the reader population... there is no way he could make everyone happy, or leave every reader feeling he has satisfactorily represented their personal beliefs about girl power and relationships.  It's impossible.  
 
As a reader I can't help projecting my personal feelings, experiences, and expectations onto the material, but I'm always mindful of an author's right to craft their material as they see fit.  I may not agree, but that doesn't make them wrong or a poor writer.
 
But that's just my opinion. 


#36 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:12 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone...
 
I can see why some of it can be considered "sexist" but I mean it's a shonen manga what do you expect? I mean, Kishi obviously is making an effort to not make the girls "damsels in distress." They do have worth, and they can fight, they do have the determination needed in a character, and they are developed and focused on enough to make them interesting. Compared to a lot of shonen writers, Kishi is doing a fairly good job. Not the best, but... the girls have their own resolve and will to fight. Can't compare them to the guys, but I mean... they're okay.
 
It's slightly sexist, but I mean if you consider this sexist, then almost everything in our society is sexist. Girls are constantly being revolved around love in our culture, in today's shows, and music, and art.. Not saying girls are, but compared to guys, girls are more used than guys for being love-oriented. It's not just from Kishi. It's from a lot of things.
 
But that's of course MY opinion. lol

Thanks for your comment.

I understand your point. But I never judge someone's work by comparison. If I think Hagen Daaz is tasty, I don't need to try another 5000 ice-creams to declare its tasty. And similarly, I'm not going to compare Kishi's work with somebody else to make a judgement. If he was a decent author like people claim him to be, they wouldn't need to bring up other 'worse' authors to justify his work. It should be able to stand on it's own.

So my point is, just because a lot of other movies, books, music are sexist, it doesn't make Kishi, non-sexist. If every other people around you were murderers, and you decide to murder a person too, it doesn't automatically make you innocent does it?

My biggest problem with the female characters are that they have a lot of manga panels dedicated to them to show they are worried, or crying, or feeling determined. It irks me because they don't take action after showing their emotions and it's like I ate something I couldn't swallow. Whereas the male characters get to prove their resolve by actually taking action while the girls go back to being a wallpaper or a broadcaster expressing emotions for us readers.

@KnS

I don't know if I understood you well enough, but your comment sounds like you're giving too much benefit to the writer and too little credit to the readers. It's as if we readers don't have the ability to distinguish what is expectation and what are selfish demands. As if we are simply minded beings who can't tell the difference of 'like' from 'good', 'hate' from 'bad'. I admit, I complain on many things based on selfish demands, but at the same time, there are times I would complain on inconsistencies that Kishi has left in the manga. And since I DID pay for the NARUTO volumes AND the databook, AND Narutimate Accel games, I think it's well within my right as a reader who invested money and time on his work to express disappointment when he hasn't given the return I expected. I'm definitely not one of those good critiques, but there are many great critiques out there that just because they are only a 'reader' we can't dismiss their thoughts as selfish demands.

I apologize if I misunderstood your comment.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 20 July 2014 - 09:42 AM.

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#37 rocci

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:31 AM

@ramen
Welcome to shonen(jump).

#38 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:47 AM

@ramen
Welcome to shonen(jump).

FUHAHAHAHA I've already been welcomed from when I was five!
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#39 rocci

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:06 AM

FUHAHAHAHA I've already been welcomed from when I was five!

I don't doubt that ;)
Btw, how much a weekly shonen jump magazine price?

#40 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:12 AM

Recently i dont buy them (since I became a bit old to be reading a shounen) but they're around JPY 240 and more when there's a special issue.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 20 July 2014 - 10:13 AM.

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