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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#49061 jak123

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:24 AM

 

Exactly, I don't see how a romance for them coulda worked out, Jak. It basically is just done by Bryke to try to win brownie points with people without thinking of actual development. And those guys even said they felt Aang and Katara were "forced" while they had one thing Korra and Asami don't have, and that's ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT IN THE ROMANCE DEPARTMENT.

It's why I wanted to bring that up when mentioning them on top of anime that's done this kind of stuff like Naruto has.

I've seen people defend Korra/Asami because gay, but say Aang and Katara didn't have good development. It baffles my mind.



#49062 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:41 AM

I've seen people defend Korra/Asami because gay, but say Aang and Katara didn't have good development. It baffles my mind.

 

Exactly. Just because a pairing is LGBT friendly doesn't make it good if it doesn't got the good development and reasoning behind it.



#49063 Kagomaru

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:51 AM

 

Exactly, I don't see how a romance for them coulda worked out, Jak. It basically is just done by Bryke to try to win brownie points with people without thinking of actual development. And those guys even said they felt Aang and Katara were "forced" while they had one thing Korra and Asami don't have, and that's ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT IN THE ROMANCE DEPARTMENT.

It's why I wanted to bring that up when mentioning them on top of anime that's done this kind of stuff like Naruto has.

Bryke spent years building upon and justifying that Aang and Katara were a great couple and stated famously (almost twelve years ago after the Book 2 finale) that their relationship has been in "The DNA of the series" ever since they worked on the original story drafts back when they were still in college.  So, for them to turn around and say that Kataang was "forced" in spite of the fact that it was being developed for three seasons and both characters had proven to have positive chemistry, is highly insulting to the sensibilities of the fanbase.  


Edited by Kagomaru, 27 May 2018 - 01:53 AM.

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#49064 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 05:38 PM

Wow i thought for sure Negi would get harem ending. I think we are entering a new era where main protagonist end up with main heroine is starting to become old fashion and too generic and too predictable in the eyes of some people , so they starting to make main protagonist end up with second girl or at least not with the main heroine.

It's also about "risk" in alienated certain groups of fans. The "default" girl is usually the "safest" choice for a harem if there is actually a choice made by the end (even bigger fans of other girls can usually see that, even if they don't like it), but more often than not, they show NO balls and go completely open-ended (too many series to count) while, of course, actually making a different choice is very rare (like Mashiro-iro Symphony's anime version, for example).


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#49065 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 12:36 AM

Bryke spent years building upon and justifying that Aang and Katara were a great couple and stated famously (almost twelve years ago after the Book 2 finale) that their relationship has been in "The DNA of the series" ever since they worked on the original story drafts back when they were still in college.  So, for them to turn around and say that Kataang was "forced" in spite of the fact that it was being developed for three seasons and both characters had proven to have positive chemistry, is highly insulting to the sensibilities of the fanbase.  

 

Trust me, I wasn't happy either, I was like "Are you TRYING to make it seem like only you guys know what to do when it took a team to make Avatar as great as it was?"



#49066 James S Cassidy

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 12:15 AM

US animation and TV can be like that. Look at stuff like How I Met Your Mother, or The Legend of Korra in terms of how they handled romance in the end. They just shoehorn in anything that would stick or even just something to make them look like they're progressive for the creators and writers to avoid persecution for their failings, but they only make things worse for themselves and their fandoms because of their actions. Naruto is the same way thanks in part to what Studio Pierrot did.

Check out the Tv show "The Wonder Years"

Literally, spent the entire series building up Kevin and Winnie and they become canon for like 5 minutes only for them to never remain together and Kevin marries someone else and has kids.

Like I mentioned in the past, this ending to me was just as bad as Naruto's.

People can do whatever ending they want, but doesn't mean people will like it.


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#49067 KClaws_2

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 07:47 AM

Naruto is the only series where I make a big deal on the romantic outcome. Other works of fiction it was either as I figured or the romantic subplot, if any, was so negligible to the plot that I just didn't care. If I may give my two cents to series with controversial romantic outcomes:
 

Ichigo 100%: I was pretty okay with it. High school and how it changes you can be unpredictable, and at least the author made sure the time spent between Junpei and Aya was NOT a waste of time. They still shared the same goal they did before, and their characters were treated with dignity.

 

Harry Potter: Meh. I'm mostly going by the movies, so if there's anything I missed in the books, let me know. From what I saw, Rowling did not SPECIFICALLY hint at Harry and Hermoine being a thing (ie have a previous generation of characters mirroring Harry and Hermoine, comparing Hermoine to Harry's mom, etc), and their characters remained consistent and admirable throughout most of it in my opinion. Ginny did come out of nowhere, but she had no impact on the main story. I dare say I even found it kind of cute, the way they were tip toeing around Ron. Ron and Hermoine...I'll be honest, didn't really like it. Though not on the same level of toxicity of SasuSaku, it irritated me how Ron was being a jerk to Hermoine (and in some parts Harry). I was just "Okay, either Ron has to give a major verbal apology, or Hermoine needs to move on. Pick one!" I more or less accepted it, but if it's true that Ron got drunk before they exchanged vows, well, that's a problem..

 

Thundercats 2011: A bit complicated for me. I think the writers did deserve criticism on how they handled it. They probably should have downplayed some of Cheetara's actions towards Lion-O (especially the kiss on the cheek), and the love triangle was rushed through way too quickly. That being said, once Tygra and Cheetara WERE together...I actually liked them as a pair. They had pretty good chemistry, in my opinion. 

Interesting to note, Dan Norton recently talked about his plans for Season 2, and apparently Lion-O was eventually going to marry Wilykit (there would be massive timeskips for both characters to make this work).

 

The Avengers (Hulk and Black Widow): Didn't care for it. It was pretty forced, but so many other awesome things were going on I was able to ignore it. It wasn't going to work out anyway, so to me it was nothing worth getting upset over.

 

Bleach: Honestly didn't care. I read Bleach only to finish it, and most everything about it went downhill. But I will give Kubo kudos for giving his readers a heads up on what would be, instead of Kishimoto lying about the opposite.

 

Legend of Korra: I'm fine with it. Korra's romantic life was really the least interesting thing about her. You could probably cut out the last two scenes of the final episode and nothing would change. And for the most part, I actually DID like the development between Korra and Asami. Yes, they weren't being heavy-handed about their sexuality, but sexuality is complicated, and many people often don't realize they're into another gender until some point later in their life. If we had them spell it out that Korra was bi, in my opinion it would have been a distraction. It would be "In another episode of KORRA IS TOTALLY GAY! Part 2!" I think the way they handled it was perfect for a kid's show. It's like Ian Flynn (the writer of the Sonic Comics) said when asked about including gay characters: "I wouldn't mind including gay characters in a story if possible, but we're not going to put it in the reader's face, going 'LOOK HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE!'. The only difference between you and an LBGT person is that they like the same gender as themselves. That's it." In addition, if you're looking to make an endgame ship a surprise, this was how you did it. Korra and Asami had interaction, and I can go back and say "Oh, the signs were there!" (Asami by Korra's side when she was first in the wheel chair, Korra writing only to Asami, and their interactions afterwards).

If there's one criticism I would have, only ONE of the girls should have dated Mako.

 

Batman (Animated Series and Killing Joke): Not a fan. I'm okayish with it in the animated series since most of it was off screen, and Barbara was at least a consenting adult then. Still, they didn't need to make a comic where apparently Bruce knocked her up and then she miscarried. Killing Joke move...the less said, the better.



#49068 DrK

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 07:56 AM

I am not really much of a shipper generally. I would normally view something like that as just a missed opportunity that would have made the story better, not something that makes the story pathetic. But Naruto is an exception to this. Everything about it is wrong. There is nothing good about it. No aspect of it was done well, and the entire IP is just kittening worthless as a result.

 

I could never say the same thing about Bleach or Harry Potter or whatever. The story wasn't about that. It's fine. Naruto isn't fine, and it never will be. 



#49069 jak123

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 01:00 PM

Check out the Tv show "The Wonder Years"

Literally, spent the entire series building up Kevin and Winnie and they become canon for like 5 minutes only for them to never remain together and Kevin marries someone else and has kids.

Like I mentioned in the past, this ending to me was just as bad as Naruto's.

People can do whatever ending they want, but doesn't mean people will like it.

 

Oh my god yes. I HATED The Wonder Years ending. Not only the entire series, but 2 part series finale was about him trying to win her back. That would be one of my favorite shows of all time if not for the ending.

 

 

I am not really much of a shipper generally. I would normally view something like that as just a missed opportunity that would have made the story better, not something that makes the story pathetic. But Naruto is an exception to this. Everything about it is wrong. There is nothing good about it. No aspect of it was done well, and the entire IP is just kittening worthless as a result.

 

I could never say the same thing about Bleach or Harry Potter or whatever. The story wasn't about that. It's fine. Naruto isn't fine, and it never will be. 

 

Yeah, I don't like shipping either. If a couple makes sense to me, then I'm good. It's very rare for me to hate a couple and it's usually because I don't like one of the characters in the couple.



#49070 griff142

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 01:11 PM

I am not really much of a shipper generally. I would normally view something like that as just a missed opportunity that would have made the story better, not something that makes the story pathetic. But Naruto is an exception to this. Everything about it is wrong. There is nothing good about it. No aspect of it was done well, and the entire IP is just kittening worthless as a result.
 
I could never say the same thing about Bleach or Harry Potter or whatever. The story wasn't about that. It's fine. Naruto isn't fine, and it never will be.

The main reason for that is because part of Naruto's development is his feelings for Sakura. His two goals in his life were becoming Hokage and marrying the girl of his dreams, which was clearly Sakura. Kishi may suck with romance but he made sure their bond was a big factor in the plot of the story, which says alot right there. Sakura was a huge factor in who Naruto was and having Naruto fufill his promise to Sakura shows how much he cared for her. Kishi screwed up then since romance did play a huge part at the end. That is why we are very mad and disappointed. Once you destroyed the NS development then the rest of the development collapsed as well and the plot could no longer hold itself up. That explains why nothing makes sense anymore and why everything contradicts itself.

#49071 James S Cassidy

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 06:13 PM

The one thing that kind of bothers me about shipping as of late is when a pairing goes bad and fans are outraged by this sudden change of tone, some other people will pull out the "This is not a romance manga/show/book/etc" excuse to the people against what is happening.

Is anyone else getting sick and tired of this?

"Naruto is not a romance story."
Well, you could have fooled me given the fact that the same people who use this excuse only watch the manga for the romantic subplots, the pairings, and disregard the main plot entirely. Kind of fooled me when they dedicated a whole movie towards romance and specifically saying "This is the story how about these two got together" and the pro-pairing websites claiming this is a love letter to the fans. What kind of garbage is that? If it is not a romance manga, then why all of a sudden spend so much focus on it? To me, this kitten excuse is nothing, but just that a kitten excuse to explain why there was no development in the beginning and all of a sudden so much development in the end shoehorned in. People never say this same kitten when it comes to successful pairings.
 

Ichigo 100%: I was pretty okay with it. High school and how it changes you can be unpredictable, and at least the author made sure the time spent between Junpei and Aya was NOT a waste of time. They still shared the same goal they did before, and their characters were treated with dignity.

I didn't really care for the pairings in this story because I kind of knew what was going to happen.
 

Harry Potter: Meh. I'm mostly going by the movies, so if there's anything I missed in the books, let me know. From what I saw, Rowling did not SPECIFICALLY hint at Harry and Hermoine being a thing (ie have a previous generation of characters mirroring Harry and Hermoine, comparing Hermoine to Harry's mom, etc), and their characters remained consistent and admirable throughout most of it in my opinion. Ginny did come out of nowhere, but she had no impact on the main story. I dare say I even found it kind of cute, the way they were tip toeing around Ron. Ron and Hermoine...I'll be honest, didn't really like it. Though not on the same level of toxicity of SasuSaku, it irritated me how Ron was being a jerk to Hermoine (and in some parts Harry). I was just "Okay, either Ron has to give a major verbal apology, or Hermoine needs to move on. Pick one!" I more or less accepted it, but if it's true that Ron got drunk before they exchanged vows, well, that's a problem..

Harry Potter is a different story in that while I can see Haryr and Hermione being a couple there was nothing really concrete to go for.  Harry/Ginny had a much better premise, but just as well it was kind of awkward when it came out of nowhere in the past. Especially when the whole Cho Chang or whatever her name was was out of nowhere. Like, it felt like a waste of time to have this couple occur. The whole cafe date felt so awkward to read. I can see Harry having a crush on someone else before Ginny or Hermione, but Cho? Yeah, umm, no offense, but I saw that outcome coming a mile away. Like, she was the girlfriend of Cedric the whole time until he died. Not sure why Harry was surprised when Cho was using him as a crutch boyfriend.

Ron and Hermione...uhh I could see them dating, but I was surprised when they married and had kids. Nothing for nothing, but they are not really that good and capable. Especially confirmed when Rowling says they go to marriage counceling.

 

Thundercats 2011: A bit complicated for me. I think the writers did deserve criticism on how they handled it. They probably should have downplayed some of Cheetara's actions towards Lion-O (especially the kiss on the cheek), and the love triangle was rushed through way too quickly. That being said, once Tygra and Cheetara WERE together...I actually liked them as a pair. They had pretty good chemistry, in my opinion. 

Interesting to note, Dan Norton recently talked about his plans for Season 2, and apparently Lion-O was eventually going to marry Wilykit (there would be massive timeskips for both characters to make this work).

I agree on this one. Especially the whole cocktease of Cheetara and Lion-O. There was no reason for that.

 

The Avengers (Hulk and Black Widow): Didn't care for it. It was pretty forced, but so many other awesome things were going on I was able to ignore it. It wasn't going to work out anyway, so to me it was nothing worth getting upset over.

This one was REALLY forced in my opinion. There was no build up and it just kind of happened. Funny though that they hinted this Captain America and Black Widow relationship in Winter Soldier and that one actually did happen in the comics at one point with them having a daughter. I usually use this argument when people try to pull the "Superman doesn't kill. That doesn't happen in the comics" argument for Man of Steel.
 

 

Bleach: Honestly didn't care. I read Bleach only to finish it, and most everything about it went downhill. But I will give Kubo kudos for giving his readers a heads up on what would be, instead of Kishimoto lying about the opposite.

Bleach, in my opinion, was obvious, but rushed. I am not sure where Rukia and Ichigo came in and even after rereading the series I don't see where they are coming from. Even if RUkia may had feelings for Ichigo somewhere, Ichigo did not have feelings for Rukia anywhere I saw. It was more like "I owe Rukia a debt and my honor won't let me let go."

 

 

Legend of Korra: I'm fine with it. Korra's romantic life was really the least interesting thing about her. You could probably cut out the last two scenes of the final episode and nothing would change.

I got bored with Legend of Korra. It just wasn't as good as Avatar: TLA. I did love the episode where the fire nation did the play and they poke fun at the "Zuko/Katara" fandom by have them be a couple in the play, they look at each other and inch away from each other. I don't think they could have gotten anymore obvious on that one. lol Korra and Asami...meh.

I am more upset that Toph and Sokka didn't get together. (Kind of reminds me of a Ron and Hermione done right.)



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Edited by James S Cassidy, 29 May 2018 - 06:23 PM.

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#49072 DrK

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 06:37 PM

By the way, what do any of you think of this?

https://fineillsignu...is-a-bad-hokage

It's kinda funny that they don't even get that they're calling attention to the fact that Naruto kittened up in his life's ambition. Though they might have been hoping that how horrible Gaara's hairstyle is would distract everyone.


Edited by DrK, 29 May 2018 - 06:38 PM.


#49073 jak123

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 07:16 PM

 

Harry Potter is a different story in that while I can see Haryr and Hermione being a couple there was nothing really concrete to go for.  Harry/Ginny had a much better premise, but just as well it was kind of awkward when it came out of nowhere in the past. Especially when the whole Cho Chang or whatever her name was was out of nowhere. Like, it felt like a waste of time to have this couple occur. The whole cafe date felt so awkward to read. I can see Harry having a crush on someone else before Ginny or Hermione, but Cho? Yeah, umm, no offense, but I saw that outcome coming a mile away. Like, she was the girlfriend of Cedric the whole time until he died. Not sure why Harry was surprised when Cho was using him as a crutch boyfriend.

Ron and Hermione...uhh I could see them dating, but I was surprised when they married and had kids. Nothing for nothing, but they are not really that good and capable. Especially confirmed when Rowling says they go to marriage counceling.

I disagree. There were many hints of Harry and Hermione end game during the series. The Ron and Ginny thing was still supposed to happen, but then Harry and Hermione were to break off it off with them and get together.



#49074 James S Cassidy

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 08:55 PM

I disagree. There were many hints of Harry and Hermione end game during the series. The Ron and Ginny thing was still supposed to happen, but then Harry and Hermione were to break off it off with them and get together.

Mind having examples? I want to see what you see if you can think of a scene that could point to it.

To keep it relevant, how do those scenes compare to say SS and NH scenes that supposedly show the same "proof?"

Edit:
The picture that summs up Naruto ending perfectly
n6stap.png


Edited by James S Cassidy, 29 May 2018 - 09:28 PM.

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#49075 jak123

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 10:45 PM

Mind having examples? I want to see what you see if you can think of a scene that could point to it.

To keep it relevant, how do those scenes compare to say SS and NH scenes that supposedly show the same "proof?"

Edit:
The picture that summs up Naruto ending perfectly
n6stap.png

Compared to Naruto? No, but they are there.

 

In book 1, Hermione and Harry embrace towards the end. In book 2, when she's petrified, Harry is the one to sit there and hold her hand. Book 3, She only trusts Harry enough to reveal the time turner thing she had. Book 4, she was the one most worried about the dragon fight and even sneaks into the Champion's tent and embraces him. She also cared what he thought about her dress the most. I don't remember 5 and 6 clearly. I know in 7, she was the only one to never waver in helping Harry. She was even with him when he visited his parent's home and grave.

I mean I guess you could draw some comparisons in overall attitude. Hermione supported Harry just like Sakura did for Naruto. 

 

Also, that scene annoyed me because of how Sakura just pushed Naruto away like that.


Edited by jak123, 29 May 2018 - 10:45 PM.


#49076 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 11:47 PM

And just to enhance this creepy imagery, just play this theme music:
 

That theme is too awesome to be used on her.

#49077 DrK

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:48 AM

Also, that scene annoyed me because of how Sakura just pushed Naruto away like that.

Everyone in that movie is fairly OOC and Sakura is not one of the better ones. Gaara is one of the worst ones. But she shows none of the warmth that made her character endearing at all. Sakura when she wants to be with Sasuke is about as warm as Sasuke himself. In terms of interacting with Naruto then significantly less. But they obviously didn't want ppl to like her when they made that film.



#49078 James S Cassidy

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 05:14 AM

Sorry, I saw this and it was hilariously funny.

http://narutoxsasuke...cebook-xd#notes


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#49079 DrK

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 05:29 AM

Sorry, I saw this and it was hilariously funny.

http://narutoxsasuke...cebook-xd#notes

There's a good post in the feed about Sasuke looking at Naruto with hope and desire in the headband scene. I guess now that I think of it, the ending is even more depressing from SNS perspective because you can add Sasuke to the list of people being denied fulfillment.

 

Sasuke wanted Naruto, he got Sakura (realistically he got nothing)

Sakura wanted Sasuke, apparently, she got Sasuke (read: nothing)

Naruto wanted Sakura or Sasuke, he got Hinata (again, basically nothing.)

Hinata wanted Naruto and she got Naruto.

 

Main trio all get kittened over because of a background char.



#49080 Kasimir38

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 09:39 AM

I legit thought at a certain point, Sasuke and Naruto would end up together. Lol. But let me tell you something about Harry and Hermione...

Referring to the movies, Harry always cared about Hermione and thought she was pretty. She was supportive of him, in the prisoner of Azkaban, I even thought they end up together because of the time traveler thing and also their interaction was so friendly. (Harry told Hermione she was awesome, she was the only one to witness the Expecto Patronum scene and when the Werewolf attacked them, he hugged her in order to protect her, also, shortly before, they were talking with each other while waiting for the full moon)

I always thought Hermiones attraction towards Ron was because he was different, her complete opposite. And maybe she wanted to embrace that side, too. Never did I feel anything between them, Hermiones jealousy was really strange and I always felt as if Harry is the better catch. They remind me of NaruSaku because being supportive and nice to each other and in the end ending up with people they either never really interacted with, or that treated them badly. People are like: Noo, they are brother and sister, I love that they didn't end up together because the main characters always end up together...or because that would destroy their friendship.

Well, this is the reason why we have so much badly written romance. A good relationship starts with a good friendship, understanding, caring, acting comfortable around each other, not being jealous or possessive, - but since this is "brother and sister" and being anxious, aflutter proprietary is a normal relationship, we get served that instead.

 

Once I read that if you have a fast palpitation, are anxious or nervous around a person, blushing or fainting - this is not love. This is obsession, you really want to have and keep something. Love is being relaxed and feeling like you can be who you are around a person.


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