54175 replies to this topic

[LuckyChi7]

Came across this one youtube on my recommendations page on youtube and I can't believe I'm gonna says this, but honestly this could've been Opening 7.  The first 10-30 seconds was a real gut punch... though truth be told the way the scenes were compiled together into this fan opening almost brought me to tears.   

 

ps there is one element where I was like "Okay I'm not surprised that's in there." but it only lasts for about 6-7 seconds at most, and you'll know which part I'm referring to when you see it.  + the song  I feel was just perfect mainly cause it's one of my favorite anime ops I've listened to for a long time

 

 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 29 October 2021 - 11:24 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Came across this one youtube on my recommendations page on youtube and I can't believe I'm gonna says this, but honestly this could've been Opening 7.  The first 10-30 seconds was a real gut punch... though truth be told the way the scenes were compiled together into this fan opening almost brought me to tears.   
 
ps there is one element where I was like "Okay I'm not surprised that's in there." but it only lasts for about 6-7 seconds at most, and you'll know which part I'm referring to when you see it.  + the song  I feel was just perfect mainly cause it's one of my favorite anime ops I've listened to for a long time
 

That's the beauty of fanmade openings and the like, they tend to reflect what works best for something be it anime or not.

[James S Cassidy]

It's really infuriating when someone uses Naruto as a scapegoat to justify their "Shonen shouldn't have romance" bias.  Just because some authors couldn't competently write a convincing resolution to their romantic subplot does not mean it shouldn't be included, or that it can't be done well.  Dragon Quest: Dai's Adventure, Beet the Vandel Buster, Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Ranma 1/2, Inuyasha, Slam Dunk, World's Strongest Disciple:Kenichi, Detective Conan, Fullmetal Alchemist, Noragami, Blue Exorcist, Mission: Yozakura Family, Love Hina, Rave Master, Fairy Tail, Seven Deadly Sins, Nisekoi, Rosario + Vampire, Undead Unluck, MHA, Black Clover, and heck even Dragon Ball, handles romance reasonably well. And those are just the ones off the top of my head.

There are certainly good AND bad examples of romance in Shonen, but Naruto is a clear example of "if you don't know how to do it, you just shouldn't." It is also the only series where they pretend the romance doesn't make an impact while also treating it like it was the most important aspect. Which is something you should NEVER do in a Shonen. Sadly, shipping has become such an issue that it is spreading like a cancer to all anime now...maybe not with the story, but the fandoms certainly have become a toxic wasteland. 

 

 

I mean the argument is that we shouldn't force the girl's feelings, but every character's feelings are orchestrated by the writer..using irl logic won't work lol.

People forget this variable so damn much it is scary. They act like Sakura is a real girl and that she is nothing more than a tinder date to Naruto who just used him, but these characters are fake and their actions are dictated by the writer and not of their volition. Even Naruto himself, who arguable is the bigger A hole now, is just a product of SP and Kishimoto failure. However, they ignore Naruto's horrible thought process in favor of "he got with Hinata...he is fine." Not realizing that he purposely had no interest in her for years....ignored her constantly...are told he didn't know what love was...and manipulated all his classmates because of a rivalry game with Sasuke.

Hinata they do the oppostie. She doesn't do anything (even Kishimoto admitted this) and yet they think she did all these great things and can take out every ninja in the world. So you're telling me that all her failures was her being Jar Jar Binks theory? (for those who don't know...the theory of Jar Jar being a sith lord lord is he was faking being an idiot and was actually manipulating everything.)

This is also why many Pro-enders are not admitting they have never seen Naruto the Last or anything....they don't know plot details while telling ME to read the manga.

This is why I say NH and SS are self-inserts. They just identify with one character and want to bang the other.

NS is the story driven couple.

I am also so sick of hearing "NH and SS is realistic" excuse. "It is realistic for Naruto to move on."
Yeah, but divorce is also realistic. Single-motherhood is realistic...in fact, in this day and age 60-70% of all marriages end up in divorce as of today.

 

And really, using things like guilt to put people together or obligation to justify the NH and SS pairings is also really damn stupid too. Which is what pisses me off more than trying to use a series as a scapegoat, like Naruto has been used

I am so sick of this new trope, but it is becoming more and more popular lately.

[sushi.]

Thing is Naruto didn't move on. It's fact that he only liked Sakura for a rivalry, he didn't have to move on from false feelings. The other canon, and there are two since this is a retcon, plainly states he loves Sakura, period.

 

He either loves her or never did at all. Moving on may be realistic but it's untrue, NH fans make this up because even they know it doesn't add up. 

 

I see this argument all the time. "They were 12!". Marrying the person you liked since preschool is rare, but this is shonen, not real life. The manga focuses on characters' lives from 12-17 years of age, so that time has to be the most significant for them. Digimon, Avatar, Harry Potter - most franchises with child protagonists have them end up with their childhood friends. Being a kid isn't an issue when they're that age most of the series.

 

And it is a bit funny considering the main Hinata argument is that she was the first to like Naruto. That means she deserves him. Kishi first denied this, then he praised her for it.

Edited by sushi., 30 October 2021 - 01:21 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Thing is Naruto didn't move on. It's fact that he only liked Sakura for a rivalry, he didn't have to move on from false feelings. The other canon, and there are two since this is a retcon, plainly states he loves Sakura, period.

 

He either loves her or never did at all. Moving on may be realistic but it's untrue, NH fans make this up because even they know it doesn't add up. 

 

I see this argument all the time. "They were 12!". Marrying the person you liked since preschool is rare, but this is shonen, not real life. The manga focuses on characters' lives from 12-17 years of age, so that time has to be the most significant for them. Digimon, Avatar, Harry Potter - most franchises with child protagonists have them end up with their childhood friends. Being a kid isn't an issue when they're that age most of the series.

 

And it is a bit funny considering the main Hinata argument is that she was the first to like Naruto. That means she deserves him. Kishi first denied this, then he praised her for it.

Exactly which is why these arguments are so infuriating because this story changes so much and these fans ignore so much that nobody knows what the fact is. We have no indication that Naruto moved on....we have a moment where it seems like he settled for second best if we go by Gaiden's standards as he gives that look to Sakura and Salad like "I wish this was my family."

And now people are pushing Boruto and Salad like "this is the new age NS." Oh, so they will supposedly fall in love, but Boruto will leave and be with Sumire instead because "that is realistic?" The logic is amazingly dumb and worse still when you have SP be like "They never loved each other." If you compare Boruto and Salad to NaruSaku, then you are telling me they are doomed to fail because that is how NaruSaku was portrayed by them. Boy, how delicious it would be if Salad was the one who was left heart broken and Boruto went with  girl who never loved him and thought he was horrible while Salad settles for Nail or whomever.

Bold: OMG...this another argument I hate. Oh so the GIRLS knew exactly what true love was the moment they took a breath, but men are so dumb and clueless and they have to grow up. "They were 12," but also saying "The girls would be horrible if they moved on because they knew their true love since the beginning."

In the end, I am just tired of people using words like "realistic" and "relatable" to characters that really aren't realistic nor relatable. 
People say Batman is realistic and relatable, but other than being human nothing else is relatable about him. Superman is closer to real life. Sure he has powers, but he has a 9 to 5 job, he feels like an outcast, he cares about people even if they demonize him, he has been pushed to brinks and he has been scared to use his powers in the wrong way.....THAT is more relatable to me than Batman who can master lifetime achievements in under 20 years and all this other ridiculous stuff.

Naruto is just not realistic nor relatable and that is okay...I rather have a compelling story than a realistic one...which may the problem within itself. If I want realism, I will go outside...if I want compelling and something heartfelt...I look to stories. 

I am just tired of the excuses.

[Kagomaru]

Came across this one youtube on my recommendations page on youtube and I can't believe I'm gonna says this, but honestly this could've been Opening 7.  The first 10-30 seconds was a real gut punch... though truth be told the way the scenes were compiled together into this fan opening almost brought me to tears.   

 

ps there is one element where I was like "Okay I'm not surprised that's in there." but it only lasts for about 6-7 seconds at most, and you'll know which part I'm referring to when you see it.  + the song  I feel was just perfect mainly cause it's one of my favorite anime ops I've listened to for a long time

 

 

I remember loving this particular fan opening years ago, back when I still had faith and love for Naruto as a series:

 

[Phantom_999]

If the show didn't have romance the easiest thing to do is hero x heroine. And that's what happened, they just replaced the heroine(until she became a mother lol). Never have I read a shonen where the protagonist likes the heroine but she ends up with another. Deuteragonist x heroine does exist, but in that case the hero is not interested in romance at all. This happens in magi, and probably others that I don't know of.
 
I mean the argument is that we shouldn't force the girl's feelings, but every character's feelings are orchestrated by the writer..using irl logic won't work lol.
 
This is one of the reasons the hero's feelings were erased from history. He couldn't move on because then he'd lose the love triangle. So he married his first love.

We shouldn’t force the girls’ feelings, but the Guys feelings can be forced, am I right?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

We shouldnt force the girls feelings, but the Guys feelings can be forced, am I right?

I always did find that to be BS and quite the double standard

[Kagomaru]

I always did find that to be BS and quite the double standard

And it isn't even about changed feelings. In Naruto's case,  he supposedly "fell" for Hinata out of guilt and warped sense of obligation for not acknowledging her obsessive feelings for him.  And if the following novels leading to Boruto are canonically approved by Kishimoto,  Sasuke was essentially stalked and harassed by Sakura at every juncture until he broke down, signed a marriage certificate, screwed her, then left as soon as he could.  

[Phantom_999]

Well point being that the reasoning that the couples are together are twisted fake facsimiles of love either way you look at it. The girls can’t let go of their first loves and are defined by it even though Ino did and by extension all of Sasuke’s other fan girls, so they are “terrible women” (quote, unquote). The guys married the girls out of guilt and obligation. Double standard kitten all over the place

[Bail o' Lies]

Well point being that the reasoning that the couples are together are twisted fake facsimiles of love either way you look at it. The girls can’t let go of their first loves and are defined by it even though Ino did and by extension all of Sasuke’s other fan girls, so they are “terrible women” (quote, unquote). The guys married the girls out of guilt and obligation. Double standard kitten all over the place

Honestly, if we look at each girl in this manga, almost all the women their age, except Hinata, would likely be in Sasuke's harem. If we followed their belief to its logical conclusion.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 November 2021 - 02:07 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Well maybe except Tenten as I recall, since she thought he was attractive but showed no more interest than that. But yeah by the logic of the girls’ first love used to excuse NH and SS’s forced marriage Sasuke should have a harem, and that is not a joke at all, logic has to be objectively applicable not only to suit certain criteria or arguments

[Bail o' Lies]

Well maybe except Tenten as I recall, since she thought he was attractive but showed no more interest than that. But yeah by the logic of the girls’ first love used to excuse NH and SS’s forced marriage Sasuke should have a harem, and that is not a joke at all, logic has to be objectively applicable not only to suit certain criteria or arguments

Pretty much every girl, including both Temari and TenTen in the chunin exams, when they met Sasuke in part one and even part two they went, "wow he is hot." And according to the Last, Women cannot move on from their first crush, not love crush, ever, it is impossible. Which means Sasuke was every girl's including Tenten's first crush, besides Hinata.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 November 2021 - 07:07 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Oh right. Well in any case, thats what it means then. Sasuke= harem by that logic. And no they cant say Sakuras love is exceptional because again Sasuke was the first love of their age group almost entirely

Edited by Phantom_999, 03 November 2021 - 06:25 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Oh right. Well in any case, that's what it means then. Sasuke= harem by that logic. And no they cant say Sakuras love is exceptional because again Sasuke was the first love of their age group almost entirely

Sometimes it is best to just point out the logical end of an idea calmly, instead of pointing out how wrong they are.

 

They can't even claim that Sakura was the first one to have a crush on him. It was made very clear that Ino had a crush on Sasuke before Sakura did. Remember when Sakura boldly proclaimed to her friends she had a crush on him they could already guess that was the case, in fact they guessed who it was even before she could say it; likely because every girl was crushing on him by that point and Sakura was just late to the party. And, even in later flashbacks, Ino is boldly cheering on Sasuke while Sakura isn't in that first time Naruto and Sasuke fought one.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 November 2021 - 03:35 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Sometimes it is best to just point out the logical end of an idea calmly then point out how wrong they are.

It is much easier now when you put their logic to the test and more often than not, they will shut up.

Like I was arguing with a...I guess SS fan, but could be just a regular proender, but I was talking about character assassination aka character derailment

Definition: 
"When an established character becomes largely different, exhibiting behavior contrary to what has been previously shown. This is not a matter of organic growth. Rather than gradually changing in response to events and experiences, a derailed character will exhibit shockingly unusual behavior that implies malfeasance or incompetence on the part of the writers."

Anyway, I explained that the ending of Naruto from Naruto the Last to Naruto Gaiden kind of had all these massive character derailments that made these character not feel like themselves. They argued with me that this was not the case. One especially was Sasuke who they explain as "always cared about Sakura" and a lot of other things.

My response, to which I JUST showed SS, was two interviews of Kishimoto specifically said not only were they not happy, but Sasuke avoids Sakura like the plague..."deals with it by not being home" quote (The interview where he was talking with Sakura's Japanese VA especially about ) and the one about how Kishimoto doesn't have a reason why Sasuke cares about Sakura and for Sakura is basically an addiction.

I also posted the two images from Chapter 693 where Sasuke again specifically says "I have no interest in her" and the time he was willing to leave her to die in lava saying she was useless to the cause and if she died then it was of no big lose to him.

I asked "Is this the caring you are speaking of? This is what you consider romantic gestures of caring and love? If so, then I feel so sorry for you and hope you never treat someone this way because this is scary for a generation to believe that abandonment, attempted murder, and mental and physical abuse is considered "caring.""

I didn't respond to the rest of his argument because I said that if he can't even see the obvious, then breaking down the rest would be impossible for them to accept and I left it at that. All I said was, yeah Naruto cared about Hinata, but then he cared about everyone....Naruto never expressed he was in love with her though and if that is the case, why didn't he end up with Sasuke since he was far more interested in him over Hinata. There are many memes of Naruto willing to abandon his family if Sasuke asked him to and it is not far from the truth. 

I never got a response back. You can't argue with actual proof with a biased opinion of what you perceive the story to be.
 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

It is much easier now when you put their logic to the test and more often than not, they will shut up.

Like I was arguing with a...I guess SS fan, but could be just a regular proender, but I was talking about character assassination aka character derailment

Definition: 
"When an established character becomes largely different, exhibiting behavior contrary to what has been previously shown. This is not a matter of organic growth. Rather than gradually changing in response to events and experiences, a derailed character will exhibit shockingly unusual behavior that implies malfeasance or incompetence on the part of the writers."

Anyway, I explained that the ending of Naruto from Naruto the Last to Naruto Gaiden kind of had all these massive character derailments that made these character not feel like themselves. They argued with me that this was not the case. One especially was Sasuke who they explain as "always cared about Sakura" and a lot of other things.

My response, to which I JUST showed SS, was two interviews of Kishimoto specifically said not only were they not happy, but Sasuke avoids Sakura like the plague..."deals with it by not being home" quote (The interview where he was talking with Sakura's Japanese VA especially about ) and the one about how Kishimoto doesn't have a reason why Sasuke cares about Sakura and for Sakura is basically an addiction.

I also posted the two images from Chapter 693 where Sasuke again specifically says "I have no interest in her" and the time he was willing to leave her to die in lava saying she was useless to the cause and if she died then it was of no big lose to him.

I asked "Is this the caring you are speaking of? This is what you consider romantic gestures of caring and love? If so, then I feel so sorry for you and hope you never treat someone this way because this is scary for a generation to believe that abandonment, attempted murder, and mental and physical abuse is considered "caring.""

I didn't respond to the rest of his argument because I said that if he can't even see the obvious, then breaking down the rest would be impossible for them to accept and I left it at that. All I said was, yeah Naruto cared about Hinata, but then he cared about everyone....Naruto never expressed he was in love with her though and if that is the case, why didn't he end up with Sasuke since he was far more interested in him over Hinata. There are many memes of Naruto willing to abandon his family if Sasuke asked him to and it is not far from the truth. 

I never got a response back. You can't argue with actual proof with a biased opinion of what you perceive the story to be.

 

You know, the only reason they didn't reply is because you beat them with the truth, which left them unable to find a way to twist things around to try to benefit them.

[TheFirstEvil100]

 
You know, the only reason they didn't reply is because you beat them with the truth, which left them unable to find a way to twist things around to try to benefit them.

Theyll just moan like the little cry babies they are, Im just getting sick of the pro Enders right now and their BS.

[Phantom_999]

It is much easier now when you put their logic to the test and more often than not, they will shut up.

Like I was arguing with a...I guess SS fan, but could be just a regular proender, but I was talking about character assassination aka character derailment

Definition: 
"When an established character becomes largely different, exhibiting behavior contrary to what has been previously shown. This is not a matter of organic growth. Rather than gradually changing in response to events and experiences, a derailed character will exhibit shockingly unusual behavior that implies malfeasance or incompetence on the part of the writers."

Anyway, I explained that the ending of Naruto from Naruto the Last to Naruto Gaiden kind of had all these massive character derailments that made these character not feel like themselves. They argued with me that this was not the case. One especially was Sasuke who they explain as "always cared about Sakura" and a lot of other things.

My response, to which I JUST showed SS, was two interviews of Kishimoto specifically said not only were they not happy, but Sasuke avoids Sakura like the plague..."deals with it by not being home" quote (The interview where he was talking with Sakura's Japanese VA especially about ) and the one about how Kishimoto doesn't have a reason why Sasuke cares about Sakura and for Sakura is basically an addiction.

I also posted the two images from Chapter 693 where Sasuke again specifically says "I have no interest in her" and the time he was willing to leave her to die in lava saying she was useless to the cause and if she died then it was of no big lose to him.

I asked "Is this the caring you are speaking of? This is what you consider romantic gestures of caring and love? If so, then I feel so sorry for you and hope you never treat someone this way because this is scary for a generation to believe that abandonment, attempted murder, and mental and physical abuse is considered "caring.""

I didn't respond to the rest of his argument because I said that if he can't even see the obvious, then breaking down the rest would be impossible for them to accept and I left it at that. All I said was, yeah Naruto cared about Hinata, but then he cared about everyone....Naruto never expressed he was in love with her though and if that is the case, why didn't he end up with Sasuke since he was far more interested in him over Hinata. There are many memes of Naruto willing to abandon his family if Sasuke asked him to and it is not far from the truth. 

I never got a response back. You can't argue with actual proof with a biased opinion of what you perceive the story to be.[/size]

 
Oh the Logic of of SS is easy. It is NH's logic where there will be a brick wall and you're talking to it because Naruto never treated her negatively and that is good enough for their fans since Naruto and Hinata are the "SIMP prizes" the other deserves. SS you can win easily because of everything you listed and more, and ultimately there is no excuse afterwards because Sasuke did not change into a better man to truly have any water under the bridge for how he treated Sakura, when that really is the go to character development to negate any negative relationship between two characters.
 
 On a different but related subject, another reason these marriages are shams, as I've said over and over again, are that Hinata and Sakura are the ones pouring everything into the relationship. Naruto and Sasuke are sitting back and doing nothing. If that relationship is fine for their fans I won't argue it any further, but last time I checked a romantic passionate relationship that all of these pro enders are going on and on about are reciprocal and done by both parties. Naruto and Sasuke currently (and for the longest time going by the story post ch. 700) act like even S** is the last thing on their minds regarding their wives  AND THAT is saying something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Since I'm sure that is the most basic reasoning their fans have for them to get together, It is just laughably sad.

Edited by Phantom_999, 13 November 2021 - 06:46 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

 Oh the Logic of of SS is easy. It is NH's logic where there will be a brick wall and you're talking to it because Naruto never treated her negatively and that is good enough for their fans since Naruto and Hinata are the "SIMP prizes" the other deserves. SS you can win easily because of everything you listed and more, and ultimately there is no excuse afterwards because Sasuke did not change into a better man to truly have any water under the bridge for how he treated Sakura, when that really is the go to character development to negate any negative relationship between two characters.
 
 On a different but related subject, another reason these marriages are shams, as I've said over and over again, are that Hinata and Sakura are the ones pouring everything into the relationship. Naruto and Sasuke are sitting back and doing nothing. If that relationship is fine for their fans I won't argue it any further, but last time I checked a romantic passionate relationship that all of these pro enders are going on and on about are reciprocal and done by both parties. Naruto and Sasuke currently (and for the longest time by the story post ch. 700) act like even S** is the last thing on their minds regarding their wives  AND THAT is saying something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Since I'm sure that is the most basic reasoning their fans have for them get together

Why do you think the SS fans were freaking out about the gaiden implying Sasuke and Sakura never kissed and rarely if at all had sex. That was the entire reason for them to get together. Sakura was their insert stand in to fantasize about having sex with the dreamy mysterious dangerous bad boy they could fix because he secretly deeply cares about them. Of course they then desperately ignore it or don't care because SS is their fantasy because they never got the romance they wanted in life.

 

As for nH, again Hinata is 'easy.' She is this super hot, super rich, eternally devoted, hopefully wild in bed, never disagree with you, always does wants to do what YOU want, and takes no effort to get or keep. They are perfect couple because neither side had to put in any effort to get together.

 

Sasuke avoided his family for twelve years. The second he became Bolt's mentor he is there every day Bolt needs him. Who does he care about?

 

Naruto seems to give up on life anytime he is around his family, yet seems energized like his old self when he around other kids or Sasuke when Bolt isn't around.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 21 November 2021 - 10:41 AM.