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Kishimoto's big moments when writing NaruHina


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#1 Lid

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 11:51 PM

So about a year or so ago I wrote up a recap on my view of the Naruto series as a whole and I haven't posted much on the franchise since then.

 

Buuuuuuut, recently reading some fan works and sticking around this site, it got me thinking about a writing point that I noticed from Kishimoto revolving around NaruHina. 

 

To start off with, nothing about this is bashing or hating based, simply some observation.

 

Upon looking back on the series, I noticed something about all of the NaruHina 'moments' from beginning to end. It's that they were all very grandiose and were set up to be epic.

 

The Chunin exam thing with Neji, Hinata saving Naruto during Pein, her holding Naruto's hand in the war arc. All these moments were during huge events, making the scope of NaruHina at the time much bigger.

 

I'm starting to think this is why Kishimoto (and the fans of that pairing) felt somewhat satisfied with what "development" the pair received.

 

My problem, and I think it's the same for many of us, is that while there were a bunch of grandiose NaruHina moments, there was never any simple dialogue sequences between the two.

 

It really goes back to the old saying of less is more. For example, if Kishimoto wanted some solid development, it should have been Hinata who spoke with Naruto after Jiraiya died. Have the two connect and speak with each other. Simple dialogue sequences like that could have gone such a long way.

 

I think this is why many of us NS people gravitated toward Naruto and Sakura. While NaruSaku had some big moments, (the part where he saved her from Gaara, for example,) there were also a lot of just simple times of them talking or being teammates.

 

Looking back, I think those simple moments of them eating at the ramen shop together produced a deeper looking connection than Hinata confessing to Naruto during a huge battle.

 

Do you guys think it's just my NS bias showing or am I not wrong here?


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#2 NeonRanger

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 01:35 AM

I don't think you're wrong.

 

But one of the issues I have with Kishi and his romantic subplot. I love NS, but one of my problems is Sakura's lack of attention/screen time for a main character. Kishi put her on the back burner of every "T7" (SNS) moment/ reunion. How Kishi (& SP; franchise) treated Sakura vs. Hinata when it came to romantic development and important moments are why more people prefer NH. Kishi continued to let Sakura (& Naruto) have feelings for Sasuke after all he has done, which turned a lot of people off. SP also continued to exaggerate Sakura's character to a point where people find her even more disliked. And even though we had big NS moments (POAL, Hug, CPR), the pivotal moments/ turning points went straight towards nH (Neji vs. Hinata, Proud Failure, Hinata and Pain, 615). Not only that but Kishi also trashed the POAL for SNS (470) and Sakura as well as NS/SS (693).

 

Personally, I find the NH moments as something being related to the village. I feel like Gaara or Shikamaru would make the same sacrifice against Pain. But Hinata made it clear that she loves Naruto, so you will have stans seeing this as romantic/ NH.

 

It's more about why did 615 had to be and NH moment along with 436, like what did she ever did for Naruto to get a moment like that. 436 wouldn't make any sense (imo), but I feel that 615 would have been okay if it was NS instead of NH, because NS had more development since (436, I felt that Hinata should have died or Gaara being the one to sacrifice himself). 

 

NS was completely fine up until the end of the Pain Arc, after that it was only about the Uchihas, SNS, and now NH. But even before than, Kishi never gave us any Sakura Arc to get people to understand her more. 

 

I like the small moments, but Kishi only made it worse when he dragged the romantic plot. NS only needed enough "big" moments to prove that would prove that NS was mutual (like a proper conclusion between SS or some realization ((an opportunity wasted in the Five Kage Arc and 693)) or something similar to 615 like having Sakura and Naruto fight against Sasuke).

 

We had good moments and NS was canon, but Kishi just dropped the whole plot after Pain and it went everywhere. There wouldn't have been such a following of Uchiha and NH stans.


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#3 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 02:13 AM

I said when I was still posting anonymously on tumbler. Something along the lines that nH were like fireworks a brief flash of pretty lights that quickly fade ultimately mean nothing and are only a distraction from the real event going on. nH had a lot of impressive flashy big moments that awe the simple minded but they have no minor interactions to build up their chemistry. It the reason why the last which should have been the culmination of nH's romance instead had to be both the start and the finish of their entire romance. NS are like a tree start out small and unimpressive but grows over time till it's massively strong and able to withstand anything.



#4 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 02:45 AM

You're not wrong. It had something but Kishi couldn't keep it up in a good way and just let the movie staff do the part in which it was a mess since I don't know what we suppose to get from Naruto. It was confusing.

That and another pairing outshine another hurts as well. You can say that's subjective, but sometimes, the most worked up relationship that ended up having them go elsewhere usually means something is up, because why work it if it doesn't lead to anywhere. I don't mean like "they don't end up together but they do have the possibility in the air," I mean like "they don't end together because they ended up with someone else." There's a reason to it and it's always a "really..." reason.

#5 Yyubie

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 03:50 AM

Oh yeah the confession in pein arc and the hand holding in war arc. Funny those big grand NH moment is always countered by other reason or NS moment as soon as its done. After her confession Sakura hug naruto in front of all villager, and after hand holding scene Sakura give CPR to naruto. Her confession never been confirm again ... until The Last kicks in.


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#6 Shadow1275

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 03:51 AM

I agree for the most part except for the Naruto/Neji fight. That was not a NH moment when it was first conceived and drawn. That was specifically a Naruto and also a Neji moment. The fight itself was focused on the idea of destiny and talent. Neji believed that Naruto would lose because he was a slacker and had no special gifts. He did not think people could change. Naruto on the flip side was the exact opposite. For him people can change their destiny if they work hard enough. Hard work can beat talent and Neji's belief in destiny conflicted with Naruto's. 

 

It was almost a prototype Naruto/Sasuke conflict in a sense. Hinata was only used to hammer this idea of destiny vs. self-determination. It is only considered a NH moment bc it was all they had before Pain, 615, and the worst ending in story writing history save for Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

 

But ultimately the moment itself was not meant as a NH moment. But as a Naruto moment. Genma said it best at the end. "When you believe in yourself, you give yourself the power to alter your destiny." He didn't say, "Naruto. I know you were mad at Neji because he dismissed someone as weak and that they would never change but you beating him is a victory for romance. Go to her Naruto. Go and tap those Hinata breasticles. Look deeply into those blank lifeless eyes."


Edited by Shadow1275, 17 April 2016 - 03:54 AM.

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#7 Lid

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 04:00 AM

I agree for the most part except for the Naruto/Neji fight. That was not a NH moment when it was first conceived and drawn. That was specifically a Naruto and also a Neji moment. The fight itself was focused on the idea of destiny and talent. Neji believed that Naruto would lose because he was a slacker and had no special gifts. He did not think people could change. Naruto on the flip side was the exact opposite. For him people can change their destiny if they work hard enough. Hard work can beat talent and Neji's belief in destiny conflicted with Naruto's. 

 

Good point, I was just thinking back to part 1 and trying to think of any major events between Naruto and Hinata. Very true though that it was a destiny and talent vs work ethic type scenario that was really being explored.


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#8 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 05:45 AM

 

Good point, I was just thinking back to part 1 and trying to think of any major events between Naruto and Hinata. Very true though that it was a destiny and talent vs work ethic type scenario that was really being explored.

What Hinata was to Naruto, Kishimoto and the story in part one and for most of part two was: "A nice girl that befriended him during the chunin exam and then got beaten up by a jerk so we root and cheer for naruto when he kicks his ass." After that she really had no more purpose to the plot. What changed was that the editors after yahagi left -after the sasuke itachi fight- were hinata fans.



#9 catsi563

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 06:13 AM

none of the NH moments were even THAT big as it stands anyways. that's what makes it worse for me The fact that every single so called big moments she was so irrelevant to the outcome of the moment in particular, and the story in general that she could have been replaced in any or all of them with any number of different characters to the same or greater emotional effect.

 

fight with Neji --replaced with Lee same or better emotional effect

Proud failure speech - Iruka , Third Hokage, Lee, Sakura all the same speech same or better emotional effect.

Pein/Confession Sakura or Iruka same or better emotional effect

holding hands - Sakura same or better emotional effect

 

those scenes are all used as the major points but the character is so irrelevant she could be removed from them to no ill effect to the story in the slightest. that's what grinds my gears the most the scenes were set up to be epic and ended up being anticlimactic because as others have stated the events were followed by a correspondingly strong NaruSaku moment.


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#10 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 06:17 AM

So about a year or so ago I wrote up a recap on my view of the Naruto series as a whole and I haven't posted much on the franchise since then.

 

Buuuuuuut, recently reading some fan works and sticking around this site, it got me thinking about a writing point that I noticed from Kishimoto revolving around NaruHina. 

 

To start off with, nothing about this is bashing or hating based, simply some observation.

 

Upon looking back on the series, I noticed something about all of the NaruHina 'moments' from beginning to end. It's that they were all very grandiose and were set up to be epic.

 

The Chunin exam thing with Neji, Hinata saving Naruto during Pein, her holding Naruto's hand in the war arc. All these moments were during huge events, making the scope of NaruHina at the time much bigger.

 

I'm starting to think this is why Kishimoto (and the fans of that pairing) felt somewhat satisfied with what "development" the pair received.

 

My problem, and I think it's the same for many of us, is that while there were a bunch of grandiose NaruHina moments, there was never any simple dialogue sequences between the two.

 

It really goes back to the old saying of less is more. For example, if Kishimoto wanted some solid development, it should have been Hinata who spoke with Naruto after Jiraiya died. Have the two connect and speak with each other. Simple dialogue sequences like that could have gone such a long way.

 

I think this is why many of us NS people gravitated toward Naruto and Sakura. While NaruSaku had some big moments, (the part where he saved her from Gaara, for example,) there were also a lot of just simple times of them talking or being teammates.

 

Looking back, I think those simple moments of them eating at the ramen shop together produced a deeper looking connection than Hinata confessing to Naruto during a huge battle.

 

Do you guys think it's just my NS bias showing or am I not wrong here?

 

You could say the exact same thing about Sakura though. They also had big and epic moments.

 

Chuunin exam:

 

Hinata: Offers Naruto the opportunity to look at her test answers.

Sakura: Nearly forfeits the entire exam for the sake of Naruto's dream.

 

Hinata: Is rooted for by Naruto during her fight with Neji. Loses.

Sakura: Is rooted for by Naruto during her fight with Ino and wins explicitly because of Naruto's cheers.

 

HInata: Is nowhere to be seen or heard from during the fight with Gaara.

Sakura: Naruto finds the strength to win due to Sakura being in peril.

 

Sound Five Arc:

 

Hinata: Is nowhere to be seen or heard from.

Sakura: POAL. The second most pivotal moment for the arc and the title character.

 

Rescue Sasuke Arc:

 

Hinata: Is nowhere to be seen or heard from.

Sakura: Yamato's infamous words about Sakura's feelings for Naruto.

 

Pein Arc:

 

Hinata: Confesses to Naruto and just about gets killed in the process.

Sakura: Closes off the story arc with a hero's welcome and a tender embrace.

 

War Arc:

 

Hinata: Motivates Naruto to get back up after Neji's death.

Sakura: Saves Naruto's life, literally holding his heart in her hands as she does so.

 

 

Nah, I'm sorry, but even taking grandoise moments alone, I still find NaruSaku more compelling. If anything, one would think that that the moments with Hinata were 'red herrings' given how infrequent they were.


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 17 April 2016 - 06:18 AM.

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#11 NeonRanger

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 07:44 AM

NS had moments that were big but became counterproductive as the manga became ongoing. Even more so when SS/NH became canon. The POAL was a huge NS moment that lost a part of it's credibility after 470 when Naruto even said that The POAL wasn't just about her. He confirmed that he was willing to save Sasuke with or without her. It was more pro-SNS than NS. The Confession in general was left to the ending because Kishi kept it so open to interpretation. Had NS been canon, the Confession would have a different meaning. With NH/SS it only confirm to Haters that Sakura was manipulative and that Naruto cared more about Sasuke than her. 

 

Then you have Sakura who continued to love Sasuke which ruined the interpretation that Sakura might be over him. Her continued love reached a point where, most readers, it became a final point before being turned off by her character; her character development was already walking on top thin lines. Sakura became a backseat character right after Sasori. And Five Kage Arc disappointed a lot of fans that rooted for her. 693 was the final point where any remaining Sakura fan that rooted for her were left scratching their heads, wondering if they went the wrong direction into supporting this character. 

 

Hinata had a decent backstory in Part 1, that gave her a good amount of a fan following. She also admire Naruto, which had people rooting for NH. It wasn't until Part 2, that her admiration becam a crush. Her character was bland, but she remained that way up til 700,  while Sakura only continued to regress. Those NH moments were big because she was the one to "save" Naruto, especially 615 when he was about to give up. 

 

NS had big moments that only pushed into the side right after the Pain Arc. The POAL was pushed to the side for SNS, and every NS moment after like the Girlfriend comment was pushed when Sasuke arrived at the picture. The CPR was also an important moment, but it involved Sasuke out of the picture/ Sakura being unaware of Sasuke's "death". It gave people a reason not to see the NS moments as "big" or important. 

 

When it came to Naruto, more people were turned off of Sakura's character than Hinata's, because they can't find the reason of her lack of presence as a heroine and why she continued to love her murderer. Hinata was never given any expectations, and good backstory for a secondary, and she was "in love with the right person". Her moments were "big" because she is a secondary character that people never expected to get that much screentime, particularly with her love interest. The moments were also "big" because one would expect those moments to come from characters like Gaara or Shikamaru, who had more screen time presence than Hinata. Some also expected moments to come from Sakura since she was the heroine. 


Edited by NeonRanger, 17 April 2016 - 07:52 AM.

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#12 Nami

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 11:57 AM

Upon looking back on the series, I noticed something about all of the NaruHina 'moments' from beginning to end. It's that they were all very grandiose and were set up to be epic.

 

The Chunin exam thing with Neji, Hinata saving Naruto during Pein, her holding Naruto's hand in the war arc. All these moments were during huge events, making the scope of NaruHina at the time much bigger.

 

I'm starting to think this is why Kishimoto (and the fans of that pairing) felt somewhat satisfied with what "development" the pair received.

 

My problem, and I think it's the same for many of us, is that while there were a bunch of grandiose NaruHina moments, there was never any simple dialogue sequences between the two.

 

It really goes back to the old saying of less is more. For example, if Kishimoto wanted some solid development, it should have been Hinata who spoke with Naruto after Jiraiya died. Have the two connect and speak with each other. Simple dialogue sequences like that could have gone such a long way.

 

I think this is why many of us NS people gravitated toward Naruto and Sakura. While NaruSaku had some big moments, (the part where he saved her from Gaara, for example,) there were also a lot of just simple times of them talking or being teammates.

 

Looking back, I think those simple moments of them eating at the ramen shop together produced a deeper looking connection than Hinata confessing to Naruto during a huge battle.

 

Do you guys think it's just my NS bias showing or am I not wrong here?

 

You bring up a very interesting point when you said all NaruHina moments were "grandiose". I never really though of it in that light and I have to say I agree with you. What I don't agree with is that most of what you mentioned are NaruHina moments. I always saw them as just Hinata moments. It was all about her. Every relationship should be give and take. Every good pairing has a balance. Even though one person tends to be more affectionate or fall in love first, there is always a semi-equal amout of attention A -> B and B -> A. 

 

Sorry for bringing it up, I know it is a different point and that it has been discussed to death, I just felt like mentioning it. Having said that, I do believe that thanks to these big moments, Hinata actually stayed a semi-important character and maybe that's why Kishi thought it was justified to pair her up with the main character. Because, let's face it, she doesn't really stand out in a crowd if you count looks or personality. If she just were there in the war, nobody would notice her and if the manga had ended up NaruHina people would have been like "who the heck is this Hinata character all of a sudden? I never saw her. Oh you mean she was that blob that was kicked around during every fight because her powers are mediocre at best? Wow, talk about screen-time.". :D 

 

So all in all, maybe the inequality of the relationship is why we never get a meaningful NaruHina conversation? Because the relationship is just mostly in her head? What is there really to develop? Actually, scratch that. The reason we never get a meaningful NaruHina conversation is because Naruto never really discovered how to talk to her without her fainting. I bet it still happens even when they're married. Naruto has to make sure always to phrase his requests as short as possible so she doesn't have time to faint before she does it.



#13 Lid

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 12:36 PM

Nah, I'm sorry, but even taking grandoise moments alone, I still find NaruSaku more compelling. If anything, one would think that that the moments with Hinata were 'red herrings' given how infrequent they were.

 

I was not  saying that NaruSaku was less compelling or that it didn't have big moments. What I'm saying is that seemed to be all NaruHina had. I'm saying that a lot of the simple sequences of dialogue that were between NaruSaku could have benefited NaruHina if that's what Kishimoto was aiming for.

 

 

 

So all in all, maybe the inequality of the relationship is why we never get a meaningful NaruHina conversation? Because the relationship is just mostly in her head? What is there really to develop? Actually, scratch that. The reason we never get a meaningful NaruHina conversation is because Naruto never really discovered how to talk to her without her fainting. I bet it still happens even when they're married. Naruto has to make sure always to phrase his requests as short as possible so she doesn't have time to faint before she does it.

 

This is part of my point, too. If Kishi had planned on this being the couple, he should have worked conversations and interactions between them in part one and threw away the fainting aspect. Look at any romance movie or romcom for that matter, the characters who fall in love usually have multiple interactions from the first act, many of them being simple.


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#14 Yyubie

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 01:06 PM

Has Naruto ever "ONCE" blush/red cheek toward Hinata??? ... oh no nevermind Naruto blushes when he kiss Hinata in TL.

Oh yeah btw @Lid you forgot to mention/add NH moment in The Last movie ... they have TONS of grand moment there :hehehe: since that movie is cannon so .. it counts  :umm: 


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#15 rocci

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 01:35 PM

@neon ranger
I disagree with poal.
With or without poal, naruto will still save sasuke.
Saving sasuke is the object of poal that important for naruto because he's the one who make it in the first place, even if kishi abadon it later.

Sns is the plot that's why their relationship is super & more important than any pairing.

#16 sushi.

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 01:58 PM

Only having big moments made NH sort of a plot device tbh. Moments made to change the course of a story. It's not as revolutionary as it sounds, because people had done the same thing before her, it was just her turn.

 

Another thing to note is that most NH moments were actually Hinata's moments. The fight with Neji and Pain was both about her. In the flashback of proud failure speech, it was during a Hinata moment. If let's say Naruto had been thinking about what Hinata said while losing a fight, using her words to win typical anime style. That would've been different, and it happened with Sakura later. When he fought Gaara, he was thinking about her to get the will to win. Even when fighting Kimimaru, even if he wanted to save Sasuke himself, he used his promise to Sakura to boost his motivation because it was that important not to fail her.

 

Conclusion is that Naruto was relevant to Hinata's story, and not so much the other way around. When the plot focused on Naruto, she usually had no place in it as there's only so much you can fit in 15 panels. Iruka, Sasuke, Sakura, Jiraiya, Gaara, sometimes Shikamaru even made a greater impact on him than Hinata.


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#17 LuckyChi7

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 02:23 PM

Honestly here is my whole stance when it comes to the canon pairings because above all he should've seeked out advice from his brother Seishi because if you've read O-Parts Hunter then you know where I'm getting at.

 

 

Most NH and SS shippers as far as I know stayed on with the ship and supported it because of Part 1.  I mean imagine if all the actions Sasuke did in Part 2 would've happened in Part 1.. I don't think SS would have the same fanbase it had before in terms of popularity.  The only thing Kishi needed to do with SasuSaku is have Sasuke just give Sakura a chance at a date it all had to be was one moment and see if that could've done something. Especially when it came to the hospital scene after Naruto brought Tsunade into the village I could've like well okay there is some progress, but the fact that Kishi didn't even do that is baffling.  Yes I know this is a shonen battle manga, not a Shoujo, but maybe just a few pages would've been interesting. Instead what does he do with the pairing, he completely kittens on it all the way through from Land of Iron Arc to before Naruto and Sasuke's final fight. The one thing I've heard from people is that this manga is all about Forgiveness is, and I'm sorry that's just not good enough. That's not how the real world works there is just absolutely no way you can forgive someone who has done nothing, but bring you pain that is why to this day when I see Sasuke and Sakura in present day I'm like 15 years of story shows nothing but an abusive relationship. That is all I've got to say on my end.  

 

 

 

 

At the same time I can say the same thing for Hinata. Yes she got here fair share of spotlight in Part 1, but that was at. Nothing about her transpired into Part 2 aside from a few big moments, but that's it. Since they got pretty brushed over very easily, and not to mention when you have a movie address why they are together instead of showing the development in the manga especially in the most cliche dumbest story telling fashion then you know something is wrong. 


Edited by LuckyChi7, 17 April 2016 - 02:26 PM.

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#18 db84x

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 07:18 PM

Maybe I need to remind you guys that this manga is for kids and preteen so it tend to avoid complicated issue, remeber in DB Goku maried because food and Trunks came out of blue.  The reason NS got shaft is just because majority of fans think that NS impede SNS dynamic, lets we face the fact that it was SNS who developed by Kishi all along.



#19 rocci

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 12:11 AM

Romance is non existence in db, the same can't be said to naruto.

I will give my opinion to op post sometimes.

#20 Lid

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 12:11 AM

Maybe I need to remind you guys that this manga is for kids and preteen so it tend to avoid complicated issue, remeber in DB Goku maried because food and Trunks came out of blue.  The reason NS got shaft is just because majority of fans think that NS impede SNS dynamic, lets we face the fact that it was SNS who developed by Kishi all along.

 

It's complicated to have some moments of a chapter dedicated to developing a relationship for the main character? That's not complicated, it's just good writing.

 

Avatar the Last Airbender was a show made for a younger audience and it was able to develop nearly all of the relationships without being too complicated.


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