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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#51461 Kagomaru

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 01:25 AM

So my best friend and I were having a discussion about Sakura, and he brought up something about Sakura which led to an interesting conversation.

 

 

I was telling him about why fans were bashing on her since the beginning and why she didn't really go through a lot of development in the story from a retrospective standpoint, and when she did it backfired because of how the ending turned out. 

 

 

He told me for that those fans don't understand what Kishi was interpreting for her character, and it made sense for Sakura to be the character that she ultimately ended up becoming in the end. She was never given that badass status and that's what Kishi wanted because she was the smartest, but not a total badass.

 

The biggest reason he brings up was that Naruto is an emotional series thus her being the way she is makes sense and that includes the excessive flashbacks (uchiha hideout, naruto and sasuke, etc.) in the story we got too because of the realistic aspect it brings with the real world standpoint like naruto and sasuke's bond, sakura's love for sasuke, and hinata's love for naruto. Love works in mysterious ways from a real world schematic because it's not about the person you spend the most time with it's about the person who truly loves you from the good and bad times and sometimes the one that's important isn't the one you realize it to be. 

 

 

Which okay I get that perspective when it comes to love, but it's a mutual thing, where you and someone special reach to that certain point which is something NaruHina and SasuSaku don't quite frankly have. I mean let's face it NaruHina could've happened at the end of war, but nope Hinata didn't talk with Naruto about the confession until two years later which quite frankly wasn't on his mind. Then you've got SasuSaku which many of us can already see the issues with that specific relationship.

 

Bottom line is,  you reach a certain point where it goes too far in Sakura's case for Sasuke where he didn't care until literally the last minute, and the same thing can be said about Naruto's connection to Hinata too. That's particularly why I love the relationship between Naruto and Sakura because that to me is accurate when it comes to love.   

Which, by your friend's criteria, would've made all the more sense for Naruto and Sakura to be together.  Both have seen each other at their best and their worst, yet they still believe and support one another wholeheartedly.  They work as a cohesive unit, whereas Hinata and Sasuke are leeches to the characters. Hinata literally does nothing for Naruto while Sasuke is literally never there and only offers Sakura "scraps" of affection once in a while when he is around.  That is not love.


Light and Shadow are the only static creations of this universe. 


#51462 DrK

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 01:42 AM

Oh that is kitten and they know it.

 

...

 

pff...yeah, it is so realistic that a girl would stay in love with a guy who abuses her physically and mentally, attempt to murder her multiple times, and this is even before they get married and have a kid to which he ignores the family, pays no bills, and just up and leaves.

I actually have no issues with that person's view because to me it is not particularly compelling either way. But irrespective of that (and once again) I cannot agree with engaging with it. You are never going to find an instance of me saying that Sakura would or should leave Sasuke or that staying with him fractures her character because she was already fractured. 

 

Sakura loving Sasuke was always uncomfortable and this was actually a THEME of the story. To reject it for the reason that it got FAR MORE uncomfortable is understandable, but it is never going to matter to them and honestly it doesn't even really matter to me.

 

Sakura was never a particularly realistic character... But in the end her behavior was kittening bizarre. I wish we knew what her problem was.

 

Wait, we do! It's that Hinata exists and her desires were given priority over everything else in the story. There is a metric ton of evidence for this now, so arguments should be centered around that.

 

Or maybe something else like her connection to Naruto... I like this one, not because it's the most convincing but because it is POIGNANT.

 

I think when most people use the term "realistic", what they really mean is that it is RELATABLE to them/their life in some way. And that is an assertion that can't be disproven as you don't know what's going on in their head.

 

But I digress. What this really is is a red herring.  I would just ignore the point or even surrender it. Arguing it amounts to a concession, because if you do so then there is the unspoken implication (whether or not you intend it) that NHSS/the ending has, at a minimum, face validity. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think this is what you want.


Edited by DrK, 16 February 2020 - 01:58 AM.


#51463 Phantom_999

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 11:55 AM

So my best friend and I were having a discussion about Sakura, and he brought up something about Sakura which led to an interesting conversation.
 
 
I was telling him about why fans were bashing on her since the beginning and why she didn't really go through a lot of development in the story from a retrospective standpoint, and when she did it backfired because of how the ending turned out. 
 
 
He told me for that those fans don't understand what Kishi was interpreting for her character, and it made sense for Sakura to be the character that she ultimately ended up becoming in the end. She was never given that badass status and that's what Kishi wanted because she was the smartest, but not a total badass.
 
The biggest reason he brings up was that Naruto is an emotional series thus her being the way she is makes sense and that includes the excessive flashbacks (uchiha hideout, naruto and sasuke, etc.) in the story we got too because of the realistic aspect it brings with the real world standpoint like naruto and sasuke's bond, sakura's love for sasuke, and hinata's love for naruto. Love works in mysterious ways from a real world schematic because it's not about the person you spend the most time with it's about the person who truly loves you from the good and bad times and sometimes the one that's important isn't the one you realize it to be. 
 
 
Which okay I get that perspective when it comes to love, but it's a mutual thing, where you and someone special reach to that certain point which is something NaruHina and SasuSaku don't quite frankly have. I mean let's face it NaruHina could've happened at the end of war, but nope Hinata didn't talk with Naruto about the confession until two years later which quite frankly wasn't on his mind. Then you've got SasuSaku which many of us can already see the issues with that specific relationship.
 
Bottom line is,  you reach a certain point where it goes too far in Sakura's case for Sasuke where he didn't care until literally the last minute, and the same thing can be said about Naruto's connection to Hinata too. That's particularly why I love the relationship between Naruto and Sakura because that to me is accurate when it comes to love.

 
Okay time for MY picking apart of your friend's logic, my good dude. 
 
1. Sakura was not meant to be a total badass but the smartest. Okay, then ask this friend of yours, Why is it that Sakura does some pretty damn impressive feats in the manga yet she is called "useless" by those that do not care for the story and only look to character shame her to make Hinata look better? Why is it that Sakura defeating dozens of Juubi clones by herself, defeated an Akatsuki member which no other K11 member besides Shikamauru can claim, one-punched one of Pain's many giagantic summon creatures to save a little girl, deduced and crushed a zetsu clone posing as Neji, and several other things that ups her status in actuality still puts her in the "useless category" by her anti-fans, but Hinata loses every fight she gets into, does not appear for many many chapters at a time, and essentially became Naruto's girlfriend and wife by playing as an old fashioned "female prize" that needed to be won and earned instead of talking to her crush like a human being, and that is considered badass? Why is it that every other character is called "badass" at one point or another but for Sakura it does not seem to fractionally apply? And as for her intelligence, she pales in comparison to Shikamaru and Shikamaru is a lazy bum that hates studying or putting effort into anything. Sakura is suppose to be the pure intellectual one upon introduction but she is "out brained" by a guy that thinks academics is too much wasted energy for his time. Either way that argument falls flat.
 
2. Love works in mysterious ways, he says. It is all about who loves you the most through the good and bad times, he says. And yet, through said bad times WHERE WAS HINATA when Naruto needed encouragement and someone to smack him out of his depression? Does Hinata ever assure him that Sasuke will be found and saved (Naruto's prime goal to the detriment of himself and everybody else) or express absolute confidence in his abilities that she tells her self Naruto can take care of HIMSELF. And last time I checked, it was SASUKE that CAUSES the bad times for Sakura. He berates her on occasion even at his best and has tried to murder and emotionally destroy her at his worst.(chapter 693, anybody?) And where are Hinata and Sasuke through the good times I wonder? When Naruto is chilling and having a good time off duty he doesn't seek out Hinata in particular nor is Hinata ever in his company alone without someone else. Sasuke IGNORES Sakura or tells her to leave him alone even when she finds him and asks him out when he was/is in the village and denies her intimacy after they've married. Yet Naruto and Sakura find each other through the good times and bad in the manga. When Naruto beats himself up over how he couldn't bring Sasuke back despite training all that time in Part II Sakura told him that he won't accomplish anything by sniveling and that they would grow stronger together. When Sakura was being depressed or bursting into tears over Sasuke, Naruto comforts her and tries to spare her feelings when Karui was interrogating them and demanding information on Sasuke. It was Sakura that tries to help feed Naruto at first, when he broke his hand over using his Rasenshuriken for the first time. Plus it was Sakura that hugged Naruto in front of the whole village when he was starting to be "celebrated as a hero" for the entire population. Has Hinata ever done that?
 
2-b. Even if NaruHina and SasuSaku was suppose to be that typical fairy tale romance gig, they fail EVEN AT THAT. For those types of romances to even apply, there must be some sort of spark and mutual attraction to go along with it. How did Naruto become an item with Hinata? By spending half of a movie dedicated to their budding relationship ignoring her despite her confession two years before, during Pains invasion in the story, had to have everyone pushing him towards Hinata's direction (prime examples, Sakura, Shikamaru and even Toneri) and developed his feelings and love by watching a illusion of how Hinata held a torch for him over the years and told himself he must return her feelings because he went unawares to it for over a decade, rather than thinking back on the bond that they share and that he took for granted (not that there was much to work with, hence the movie dohohohoho). And WHERE was Sasuke's spark with Sakura? Even in shojo manga/anime, even the most cold, aloof, $h!theaded and brainless targets of a girl's affection would at least show some chemistry and interest towards her. Where is that with Sasuke? Pinpoint it for me. SHOW ME WHERE AND WHEN his words and actions showed that he had a particular soft spot for Sakura. 
 
Point being, this is yet another, proof of ignoring context in the story and providing only one's head canon when dealing with debates. It is not grounded on facts or explanations would make the decisions of the writing even plausible. Sakura is not misunderstood, she will always be that "ball busting shrew" that was never there for Naruto when he was abandoned abused and alone during childhood in the eyes of her haters and Hinata fanatics, and therefore does not deserve to be acknowledged as his love interest or even a halfway decent character no matter how she improves in personality or what accomplishments she has to her name.The romance in Naruto is the most garbage, last second cluster kitten I have ever read/seen in all of my years of reading/watching/hearing fictional romance stories, and also in my experiences of witnessing real life relationships, bar none. I'm just saying that justification of your friend is as weak as it gets and especially if he is not even a Hinata cultist.¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Edited by Phantom_999, 28 February 2020 - 02:03 AM.

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#51464 LuckyChi7

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 04:51 PM

I guess the question comes into play, 

 

has Kishi improved, or is it another red herring in his latest series Samurai 8?

 

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For anyone who is curious,  Samurai 8 has only got 38 chapters so less than 50.


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#51465 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 06:25 PM

I guess the question comes into play, 

 

has Kishi improved, or is it another red herring in his latest series Samurai 8?

 

87024240_3637373212971572_15501369378875

 

 

 

 

86479788_3637373216304905_81792829548291

 

 

86415892_3637373242971569_15722521454014

 

 

 

 

 

For anyone who is curious,  Samurai 8 has only got 38 chapters so less than 50.

 

Something tells me this is a fakeout of some kind. Maybe he's gotten better, but i dunno, and I'm hesitant to give him the benefit of the doubt after how he ****** us over in Naruto!



#51466 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 09:31 PM

I wouldn't trust Kishi writing a Dr. Seuss book.


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#51467 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 09:58 PM

Keep your question to one topic so the debate isn't split.



#51468 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 10:40 PM

I don't see Hinata pulling a Kairi in ReMind.

no me neither she won't pull a Kairi hell Kairi currently is more useful than hinata Kairi took on an armored xehanort that summoned meteor   

Something tells me this is a fakeout of some kind. Maybe he's gotten better, but i dunno, and I'm hesitant to give him the benefit of the doubt after how he ****** us over in Naruto!

same I won't trust anything he writes same with me and RIan Johnson granted he did make a good movie last year called knives out.
  

I wouldn't trust Kishi writing a Dr. Seuss book.

Same or to use a pen.

#51469 Phantom_999

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 01:46 AM

I really hate this argument. The "I don't deserve a guy like you" argument. It is so bad because it does nothing. "I don't deserve you because you are too nice to me. Now, I will ignore your feelings and focus all my attention on a guy who does the same to me: ignore me and treat me poorly."

I never understand this concept of falling in love with people who have no feelings for you whatsoever only to try and beat brow them into caring about you....but then turn around and tell another person that they shouldn't have feelings for you because you're not worth it. Like, you are literally telling people how they feel instead of asking them. If a girl does this apparently it is cute and romantic, but if a guy does this...it is creepy and he is being oppressive.

To me I would look at both Sakura and Hinata and tell them both..."Until the time comes when you truly appreciate love for what it is...you both don't deserve any."



I understand young lovers can be stupid when they first experience love, but how many times has Sasuke said "no" and yet they still pushed him to be with Sakura and pushed Naruto to Hinata? Literally, it feels like not one person save for our group cared about what the guys felt at all. All anyone else in the fandom cared about was what Hinata wanted and only slightly supported Sakura's feelings because "it got Naruto to be free to choose Hinata." It is the most asinine way of looking at love and this is how every one views as romantic now. The guy's are abusive and the girls are obsessive. Yet, they deny any of this despite being on the pages.
 

 

Oh, I wish to portray that Sakura has been completely destroyed as a character. In fact, 99% of the characters in Naruto are a pale comparison to their former selves save for maybe the likes of Rock Lee and Temari.

It is just that I stopped blaming the characters themselves and instead focused on the REAL issue of that Kishimoto bent the knee to Hinata's popularity because he had no balls and the fact that everything that occurred with the retcons and more are all for the sake of making Hinata SEEM like the best girl.

And believe me, the Hinata fanatics are still at it. I talk with fanatics that talk about how great Hinata is and how bad Sakura is, but all they can remember is 2 scenes throughout the entire manga.

I literally stop the entire conversation and tell them: Do you see how pathetic your logic is? 15 years of story and all you can remember is 1 scene? You can't remember anything else from the story? Is that because you choose not to remember or that you live in your own headcanon so hard that you block out everything else?

They try to play coy, but the arguments are ALWAYS piss poor and they always fall back on "Well, at least she is not as bad as Sakura."

One Hinata fan literally said to me and I will quote this:
"Hinata is better than Sakura because she stays in her lane and does not get in the way, unlike Sakura."

I was like "Woah, so you're telling me that the reason you think Hinata is better is because when you tell her "Get back in the kitchen, this is a man's world" she listens to you? Holy crap are you sexist. Also, how come you say this about Hinata, but the one scene you LOVE about her is when she DOESN'T stay in her lane and gets in the way?"


What the hell are these people thinking?

 

Double standards, as always. Never forget this mantra. Hinata does it? A-okay. Sakura does it? She is a USELESS THOT like I always KNEW she was!!!! And remember, this does not apply only to Hinata being a shy submissive sex doll that won't squeak no matter how much she is "penetrated into". Remember how in "Road to Ninja" she was "a possessive, jealous, temperamental Black Widow" (sorry for insulting Natasha Romanoff, that was the only man eater motif I can recall off the top of my head), and her fans STILL adored her for it? I bet if the Sakura of that universe was the shy submissive one they would be going all, "what a weak willed useless lump of meat. She should learn to be strong and confident like THIS HINATA!!!!" Trollolololololololololol. Really, the diarrhea- like drivel that comes out of these fans' mouths and you would SWEAR your brain is put in an endless swirly. Just saying.  


Edited by Phantom_999, 17 February 2020 - 01:52 AM.

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#51470 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 06:17 AM

 

Double standards, as always. Never forget this mantra. Hinata does it? A-okay. Sakura does it? She is a USELESS THOT like I always KNEW she was!!!! And remember, this does not apply only to Hinata being a shy submissive sex doll that won't squeak no matter how much she is "penetrated into". Remember how in "Road to Ninja" she was "a possessive, jealous, temperamental Black Widow" (sorry for insulting Natasha Romanoff, that was the only man eater motif I can recall off the top of my head), and her fans STILL adored her for it? I bet if the Sakura of that universe was the shy submissive one they would be going all, "what a weak willed useless lump of meat. She should learn to be strong and confident like THIS HINATA!!!!" Trollolololololololololol. Really, the diarrhea- like drivel that comes out of these fans' mouths and you would SWEAR your brain is put in an endless swirly. Just saying.  

 

You're not wrong, dude. Not about any of this



#51471 Konoha'sCrimsonFox

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 11:30 AM

Anything NaruSaku relating in the latest developments of the Borruto franchise?


Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 17 February 2020 - 11:31 AM.

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#51472 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 03:54 AM

Anything NaruSaku relating in the latest developments of the Borruto franchise?

In the manga? No. In the anime? Everyone stopped paying attention to it again after the time travel arc ended. So, if you want to know; you have to ask someone who is actually keeping up with it.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 18 February 2020 - 03:55 AM.


#51473 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 04:30 AM

Anything NaruSaku relating in the latest developments of the Borruto franchise?


The only NaruSaku moment in Boruto that I can recall was when she seen Naruto and his shadow clones, and she watched him almost in a dreamy way like she misses him. I do not read the manga to know anything else.

Edited by Illnevergiveup3, 18 February 2020 - 05:30 PM.

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#51474 DrK

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 05:12 PM

The only NaruSaku moment in Boruto that I can recall was when she seen Naruto and his shadow clones, and she watched him almost in a dreamy way like she misses him. Dont read the manga to know anything else.

Was that after the one he failed to sustain and crushed the spirits of his family? And before the one he comically forces out while taking a kitten?



#51475 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 05:32 PM

Was that after the one he failed to sustain and crushed the spirits of his family? And before the one he comically forces out while taking a kitten?


I am not sure to be honest. I saw the scan floating around and it kind of interested me. But I do not read the manga to know what came before or after it.

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#51476 DrK

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 05:54 PM

I am not sure to be honest. I saw the scan floating around and it kind of interested me. But I do not read the manga to know what came before or after it.

I read it once but my eyes burned too much from the horrific art style to continue. I actually think the scene you are referring to happened in the very first chapter though now that I think of it. Like he has this really dumb expression on his face and Sakura-chan with her dopey Uchiha crest on her back views him and is like *sigh*.

 

I get that some people are interested in it but the whole idea of those characters somehow being together in the Boruto verse disgusts me to be honest. They deserved to do it right. Not to mention that both were kittened over beyond repair and no justification for that would ever be believable. Short of all of it being a genjutsu.



#51477 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 06:35 PM

I read it once but my eyes burned too much from the horrific art style to continue. I actually think the scene you are referring to happened in the very first chapter though now that I think of it. Like he has this really dumb expression on his face and Sakura-chan with her dopey Uchiha crest on her back views him and is like *sigh*.

 

I get that some people are interested in it but the whole idea of those characters somehow being together in the Boruto verse disgusts me to be honest. They deserved to do it right. Not to mention that both were kittened over beyond repair and no justification for that would ever be believable. Short of all of it being a genjutsu.

 

It also makes me think of the Boruto movie trying to do that **** too when Sakura and Ino are sitting together and see Naruto running by helping an old lady with Shadow Clones...



#51478 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 06:50 PM

 
It also makes me think of the Boruto movie trying to do that **** too when Sakura and Ino are sitting together and see Naruto running by helping an old lady with Shadow Clones...


that is the exact scene I am talking about.

Superman_over_earth_500x400.jpg

I wish I could have the powers of Superman so I could save protect the world under God's will.

Always have the spirit and the guts to never ever give up no matter what.


#51479 DrK

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 07:10 PM

that is the exact scene I am talking about.

Not to rain on your parade but I don't remember finding that very romantic. The vibe was basically just "Oh that doofus is still the same (even though he has and is now a dictator with no morals), not like the cool guy I married!"

 

She refused to acknowledge the way she felt about Naruto even back when it actually mattered. Why would she do it now? (though ironically she did come close to doing so in the less visually ugly but still appalling Boruto anime)


Edited by DrK, 18 February 2020 - 07:12 PM.


#51480 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 08:54 PM

Not to rain on your parade but I don't remember finding that very romantic. The vibe was basically just "Oh that doofus is still the same (even though he has and is now a dictator with no morals), not like the cool guy I married!"
 
She refused to acknowledge the way she felt about Naruto even back when it actually mattered. Why would she do it now? (though ironically she did come close to doing so in the less visually ugly but still appalling Boruto anime)


what happened in the Boruto Anime?

Superman_over_earth_500x400.jpg

I wish I could have the powers of Superman so I could save protect the world under God's will.

Always have the spirit and the guts to never ever give up no matter what.





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