31579 replies to this topic

[RulesofNature]

https://www.ranker.c...rystal-brackett

This is accurate.

 

 

Allow me to share a revelation I've had. For all of his bluster about "with great power comes great responsibility," Naruto Uzumaki is one of the most irresponsible superheroes ever.

He never learns from his mistakes, never takes into consideration how his life as Hokage affects everybody else. Now, some would say that's the core concept of the character, the constant struggle between the job and the man. But he never actually gives any consideration to the man, preferring to make excuses about it. He disappoints people around like his son all the time because "something more important was happening as Hokage". But instead of trying to find ways to balance his two lives properly, he will go out of his way to make excuses for it and gets drunk. he places more importance on being Hokage than he should distance himself from relationships that would hurt that. If he places more emphasis on being a family man, he needs to sacrifice his time as Hokage. Now that's not always going to be the case for everyone in the real world. But Naruto never actually changes as a result of his actions. He just makes the same mistakes over and over. During Chapter 687 He called Obito a mass murderer the coolest guy ever. Forget if you want Naruto married to either Sakura or Hinata. This is the moment Naruto's character was kittened. Obito murdered his family, Destroyed the village and was the reason Kohona was in a war.

Another rant is that he missed his daughter's birthday and his wife Hinata never called him out on it. Now he was a young dumb kid by starting out but he was supposed to change as a character but he hasn't. He takes more responsibility as Hokage than he does as a family man. But hey, maybe that's just the reasoning of a jaded individual looking at this stupid-ass Manga in hindsight. Of course I don't want Naruto to stop being Hokage. What I want is for him to be written like a goddamn adult already! But the writers and Kishi and Studio Periott wouldn't let that happen. Naruto is just escapist fantasy to them. And they don't want the escapism of Naruto stopping bad guys and going home. And that's just hilarious considering the fact that Naruto was supposed to be a relatable character who was an orphan and life sucked and he became a father and make his kids' lives suck. He was supposed to relate to the reader. But the truth is that the reader has grown up. The reader got married, had kids, has relatives that die and they have to move on. The reader changed... but Naruto has not.

You know there are fans wanting a Naruto reboot to fix the ending... It's not happening it's just fans wishing but you know what? Maybe they should reboot Naruto. But you know what? Maybe they should reboot Naruto. After all, if the creative team isn't gonna give him a happy family... then why does he have one in the first place?

 

Linkara rant aside, I feel like there's a bigger issue to dig into here.

 

What was Naruto really about? What messages was it trying to pass on? Because on that front the work has always been a mess. Growth and maturity are thrown out the window whenever it's convenient, something we saw as far back as the beginning of the Chunin exam where even Kakashi talks about how things went back to normal after the Zabuza incident. The growth there did not stick. The idea of bonds is nonsensical considering how shallow the bond between Sasuke and Naruto actually was, and that's not even going into The Last making Naruto's most important bond the one he had with someone he never interacted with. Naruto does not learn how to lead to become Hokage, he never passes the Chunin exam that would have shown him reliable enough to shoulder more responsibility. Instead, it all becomes some social Darwinist BS where he's just soooo strong (Hell, I think the reason why so much Japanese media nowadays is calling out this might makes right mentality is because of how prevalent it used to be in shonen, with Naruto being one of the definitive examples), and he's just given power up after power up to detract from the idea of hard work beating natural talent, The truth doesn't matter either as Itachi is still left labelled a criminal, the Hyuuga family slavery is forgotten, Naruto's forgiveness isn't based on empathy but rather him seeing some aspect of himself in his enemies, he doesn't even challenge the system, and he raised a son who is in love with the idea of being Konoha's black ops doing jobs the village can not officially be tied to. And now to top it all off, he's become a crappy dad.

 

The story of Naruto has no real meaning, whatever messages the series could have had sold out a long time ago in order to milk it relentlessly. The series has nothing it really takes seriously, while leaving behind a slew of unfortunate implications. And when you think about what messages it might have passed on to the reader, that's a scary thought even beyond that what Hinata does is somehow considered love.

[Chatte]

 

Linkara rant aside, I feel like there's a bigger issue to dig into here.

 

What was Naruto really about? What messages was it trying to pass on? Because on that front the work has always been a mess. Growth and maturity are thrown out the window whenever it's convenient, something we saw as far back as the beginning of the Chunin exam where even Kakashi talks about how things went back to normal after the Zabuza incident. The growth there did not stick. The idea of bonds is nonsensical considering how shallow the bond between Sasuke and Naruto actually was, and that's not even going into The Last making Naruto's most important bond the one he had with someone he never interacted with. Naruto does not learn how to lead to become Hokage, he never passes the Chunin exam that would have shown him reliable enough to shoulder more responsibility. Instead, it all becomes some social Darwinist BS where he's just soooo strong (Hell, I think the reason why so much Japanese media nowadays is calling out this might makes right mentality is because of how prevalent it used to be in shonen, with Naruto being one of the definitive examples), and he's just given power up after power up to detract from the idea of hard work beating natural talent, The truth doesn't matter either as Itachi is still left labelled a criminal, the Hyuuga family slavery is forgotten, Naruto's forgiveness isn't based on empathy but rather him seeing some aspect of himself in his enemies, he doesn't even challenge the system, and he raised a son who is in love with the idea of being Konoha's black ops doing jobs the village can not officially be tied to. And now to top it all off, he's become a crappy dad.

 

The story of Naruto has no real meaning, whatever messages the series could have had sold out a long time ago in order to milk it relentlessly. The series has nothing it really takes seriously, while leaving behind a slew of unfortunate implications. And when you think about what messages it might have passed on to the reader, that's a scary thought even beyond that what Hinata does is somehow considered love.

And I think that's one of the saddest aspects outside of the pairings aspect. That's one of them, sure. But it's just one of the entire plot of messages who were just thrown down the drain for the sake of money.

 

Fml, that's the issue: when some bunch of ppl want to make some dirty money they always throw down the drain good morals. And I'm like...? Isn't that a price too high to pay? Is it even worth for all the money in the world?

Idk man...

[tricksie]

 

Linkara rant aside, I feel like there's a bigger issue to dig into here.

 

What was Naruto really about? What messages was it trying to pass on? Because on that front the work has always been a mess. Growth and maturity are thrown out the window whenever it's convenient, something we saw as far back as the beginning of the Chunin exam where even Kakashi talks about how things went back to normal after the Zabuza incident. The growth there did not stick. The idea of bonds is nonsensical considering how shallow the bond between Sasuke and Naruto actually was, and that's not even going into The Last making Naruto's most important bond the one he had with someone he never interacted with. Naruto does not learn how to lead to become Hokage, he never passes the Chunin exam that would have shown him reliable enough to shoulder more responsibility. Instead, it all becomes some social Darwinist BS where he's just soooo strong (Hell, I think the reason why so much Japanese media nowadays is calling out this might makes right mentality is because of how prevalent it used to be in shonen, with Naruto being one of the definitive examples), and he's just given power up after power up to detract from the idea of hard work beating natural talent, The truth doesn't matter either as Itachi is still left labelled a criminal, the Hyuuga family slavery is forgotten, Naruto's forgiveness isn't based on empathy but rather him seeing some aspect of himself in his enemies, he doesn't even challenge the system, and he raised a son who is in love with the idea of being Konoha's black ops doing jobs the village can not officially be tied to. And now to top it all off, he's become a crappy dad.

 

The story of Naruto has no real meaning, whatever messages the series could have had sold out a long time ago in order to milk it relentlessly. The series has nothing it really takes seriously, while leaving behind a slew of unfortunate implications. And when you think about what messages it might have passed on to the reader, that's a scary thought even beyond that what Hinata does is somehow considered love.

 

 

And I think that's one of the saddest aspects outside of the pairings aspect. That's one of them, sure. But it's just one of the entire plot of messages who were just thrown down the drain for the sake of money.

 

Fml, that's the issue: when some bunch of ppl want to make some dirty money they always throw down the drain good morals. And I'm like...? Isn't that a price too high to pay? Is it even worth for all the money in the world?

Idk man...

 

YESSSSS!

 

The version of Naruto that I like exists solely in fics and fan art! The manga simply unraveled and failed him. I don't reread the Naruto manga, even though parts were good, and I don't recommend it.

 

Looking back, it's shocking how much of the story revolved around Sasuke and the Uchihas. I honestly believe Kishi fell in love with Sasuke's character — the whole redemption arc — and was no longer interested in writing for his hero. So towards the end he was just giving Naruto challenges and power ups, over and over. No story arcs. The rest of the story moved around the Uchihas and their history. That tells you something's wrong.

 

Even completely selling out, Kishi could have still written a compelling story around Naruto. BUT HE DIDN'T. Naruto just looked sort of weak and sidelined by the end. Not the standout hero, but someone who was just waiting for his buddy return so that they could fight together. 

 

And he never regains hero status. He still is a mess timeskip at the end of the manga (which is told from sasuke's point-of-view btw!), and he's a mess in Boruto. He's like the worst verison of himself.

 

I always think that younger Naruto from the manga would HATE the way he turned out. He would hate older Naruto with a passion.

 

And that is the only thing about the ending that makes me happy....

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 
I always think that younger Naruto from the manga would HATE the way he turned out. He would hate older Naruto with a passion.
 
And that is the only thing about the ending that makes me happy....

I would see it as that way too, Tricksie, like I would see young Naruto viewing his older self as a HUGE hypocrite for the way things turned out.

Not to mention I still feel like outside influences from others to become what he is now, like Kakashi and Shikamaru since they NEVER wanted to call out or change the system that hurt them so damn much!

And I'd also see young Naruto HATE that how he is now that he's given up on that kind of tenacity he used to have, and on many of the things he was aiming for besides to be Hokage.

[LuckyChi7]

 

Linkara rant aside, I feel like there's a bigger issue to dig into here.

 

What was Naruto really about? What messages was it trying to pass on? Because on that front the work has always been a mess. Growth and maturity are thrown out the window whenever it's convenient, something we saw as far back as the beginning of the Chunin exam where even Kakashi talks about how things went back to normal after the Zabuza incident. The growth there did not stick. The idea of bonds is nonsensical considering how shallow the bond between Sasuke and Naruto actually was, and that's not even going into The Last making Naruto's most important bond the one he had with someone he never interacted with. Naruto does not learn how to lead to become Hokage, he never passes the Chunin exam that would have shown him reliable enough to shoulder more responsibility. Instead, it all becomes some social Darwinist BS where he's just soooo strong (Hell, I think the reason why so much Japanese media nowadays is calling out this might makes right mentality is because of how prevalent it used to be in shonen, with Naruto being one of the definitive examples), and he's just given power up after power up to detract from the idea of hard work beating natural talent, The truth doesn't matter either as Itachi is still left labelled a criminal, the Hyuuga family slavery is forgotten, Naruto's forgiveness isn't based on empathy but rather him seeing some aspect of himself in his enemies, he doesn't even challenge the system, and he raised a son who is in love with the idea of being Konoha's black ops doing jobs the village can not officially be tied to. And now to top it all off, he's become a crappy dad.

 

The story of Naruto has no real meaning, whatever messages the series could have had sold out a long time ago in order to milk it relentlessly. The series has nothing it really takes seriously, while leaving behind a slew of unfortunate implications. And when you think about what messages it might have passed on to the reader, that's a scary thought even beyond that what Hinata does is somehow considered love.

 

 

Exactly, and that's the thing I've always kept thinking about.... People want to say it all boils down to pairings which yeah that's one aspect of it, but lets face it changing the pairings wouldn't fix the abundant of plotholes we have in Naruto... Like yeah it does something with Sakura getting over Sasuke, but that's it really.  That wouldn't fix the 4th Great Ninja War,  or Naruto hyperventilating like a little kitten!  <-  Ya I said what I  said!  

 

Well and let's face it the big line is drawn from Naruto as the main protagonist...... Does he really develop at all throughout Part 2?  Yeah, here and there, but there's nothing drastic that showcases "Wow he's really developed...."  His ideology was tested against Pain yes, but it was never really a continous thing...

 

The biggest one to be always come back to Sasuke  "All that time you spent chasing after me, would've been better spent in training right, Naruto?" and you know what he's right.... that by itself should've been turmoil conflict for Naruto like what if "Sasuke is right? What exactly have I been doing for the last 2-3 years? Have I lost sight of what I desired?" and that could've been a really cool struggle to see in Naruto....

 

Even beyond that like when Naruto loses control and goes into his 4 tails state when he attack Sakura without realizing it.... There could've been something where He distances himself from Sakura because he sees what kind of a monster he can be, and that scares him because he doesn't want to hurt the people he cares about. 

 

None of that was present in Part 2, and that is honestly one of the most infuriating things about Naruto as a protagonist the more I look back on it. 

 

 

And I think that's one of the saddest aspects outside of the pairings aspect. That's one of them, sure. But it's just one of the entire plot of messages who were just thrown down the drain for the sake of money.

 

Fml, that's the issue: when some bunch of ppl want to make some dirty money they always throw down the drain good morals. And I'm like...? Isn't that a price too high to pay? Is it even worth for all the money in the world?

Idk man...

 

 

I couldn't agree more Chatte,  there's a beautiful saying in life we like to say "All good things have to come to end.." and honestly that is something I wish was more relevant in todays era than it was 10-20 years ago.  

 

Like a let story end when it's meant to reach it's conclusion, and as someone whose writing a story that encompasses a fixed trilogy of books when that story comes to a close for me that'll be it... there isn't gonna be we're finished, but there's a new generation on the horizon..... 

 

I mean the best example I could probably give is Full Metal Alchemist... when that story came to a close that was it.... We didn't get a story of Edward of Winry's child and exploring their adventures and the continuing cycle of Alchemy that's somehow mysteriously still in the air.  None of that happened!

 

 

Like yeah we still get some sort of content of Fullmetal Alchemist today, but a lot of that is just like a 2 in 1 editions of Manga Volumes, or like side stories that are novels that take place during the course of the story.  There hasn't been like a continuation after the series ended. 

 

 

 

 

YESSSSS!

 

The version of Naruto that I like exists solely in fics and fan art! The manga simply unraveled and failed him. I don't reread the Naruto manga, even though parts were good, and I don't recommend it.

 

Looking back, it's shocking how much of the story revolved around Sasuke and the Uchihas. I honestly believe Kishi fell in love with Sasuke's character — the whole redemption arc — and was no longer interested in writing for his hero. So towards the end he was just giving Naruto challenges and power ups, over and over. No story arcs. The rest of the story moved around the Uchihas and their history. That tells you something's wrong.

 

Even completely selling out, Kishi could have still written a compelling story around Naruto. BUT HE DIDN'T. Naruto just looked sort of weak and sidelined by the end. Not the standout hero, but someone who was just waiting for his buddy return so that they could fight together. 

 

And he never regains hero status. He still is a mess timeskip at the end of the manga (which is told from sasuke's point-of-view btw!), and he's a mess in Boruto. He's like the worst verison of himself.

 

I always think that younger Naruto from the manga would HATE the way he turned out. He would hate older Naruto with a passion.

 

And that is the only thing about the ending that makes me happy....

 

 

There is no better way of describing it then what you just said Tricksie! 

 

It's honestly no surprise that Kishi's appreciation for Sasuke grew heavily since he's mentioned before that he emphasized more with Sasuke's characte and considered to be too idealistic...

 

People wanna say no... Naruto wasn't really idealistic he's wrong, but honestly though.........  Is Kishi really wrong in saying that? because given what we got throughout Naruto especially during the timeskip it shows it really just shows how idealistic Naruto really is, and he never really gives a thought to question any of the hard hitting questions when it comes to the world and the grips he has to face in becoming a better person... It's always about about No  I need to show them that we're exactly the same.... there's still good in people.... I hate to break it to some people, but that's not how life is ... people can be cruel and selfish and have their desires they want to see come to fruition even during their darkest hour.  Once you trend that line... there is ultimately no going back, and that is something we've seen other protagonists from other series learn. Naruto didn't have that luxury and unfortunately he never will. 

 

That's why even as a main protagonist I feel like Naruto is a such a wasted potential!   

[Phantom_999]

https://www.ranker.c...rystal-brackett

 

This is accurate.

 

Some are just personal points of contention and are not truly objective. But let me sum up WHY Naruto is the worst character in the simplest terms. He’s a hypocrite through and though, after the Last. “Sasuke stalker shippuden” Is a perfectly accurate title because it was shown time and time again, Sasuke is his sole priority over everything else. He HAS TO BRAINWASH SASUKE TO BE HIS BFF AGAIN AND MAKE LOVE TO HIM LIKE A YAOI COUPLE because Sasuke never made his own choices and Naruto is not having any of the Sasuke decided to hurt others for his revenge. How else do you explain his we will die together mentality in the later half of the series and forgot about his own dreams and how dying would affect other cherished people of his? Even though if someone else said that, he would surely slap them to kingdom come and tell them to value their own life more. He said you have to work hard to become Hokage, yeah except for him, who spent a better part of his adolescence chasing after his boy toy and never bothered to become a better leader. He is painted as compassionate and empathetic but even that is rendered moot by Boruto as He knowingly let Orochimaru continue his experiments on others Scott free, and when Hinata rejected him in the last, his attitude was the world can go to hell because my twu wuv rejected my sudden sexual and pity feelings for her. And he is not trying to change the wrongs of others he he’d said he’d fix and that is why he did not even hold on to his hatred of his enemies anymore since they are not villain's but victims of circumstance. There are other reasons Obviously but that is just one of the writing problems that I have with the series, and why I see the character as a joke. Oh and any preaching he has about love IS RICH, coming from him since he can’t tell the difference between loving his ramen from loving a person, “The last says”

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 February 2022 - 01:16 PM.

[Kagomaru]

 

 

Exactly, and that's the thing I've always kept thinking about.... People want to say it all boils down to pairings which yeah that's one aspect of it, but lets face it changing the pairings wouldn't fix the abundant of plotholes we have in Naruto... Like yeah it does something with Sakura getting over Sasuke, but that's it really.  That wouldn't fix the 4th Great Ninja War,  or Naruto hyperventilating like a little kitten!  <-  Ya I said what I  said!  

 

Well and let's face it the big line is drawn from Naruto as the main protagonist...... Does he really develop at all throughout Part 2?  Yeah, here and there, but there's nothing drastic that showcases "Wow he's really developed...."  His ideology was tested against Pain yes, but it was never really a continous thing...

 

The biggest one to be always come back to Sasuke  "All that time you spent chasing after me, would've been better spent in training right, Naruto?" and you know what he's right.... that by itself should've been turmoil conflict for Naruto like what if "Sasuke is right? What exactly have I been doing for the last 2-3 years? Have I lost sight of what I desired?" and that could've been a really cool struggle to see in Naruto....

 

Even beyond that like when Naruto loses control and goes into his 4 tails state when he attack Sakura without realizing it.... There could've been something where He distances himself from Sakura because he sees what kind of a monster he can be, and that scares him because he doesn't want to hurt the people he cares about. 

 

None of that was present in Part 2, and that is honestly one of the most infuriating things about Naruto as a protagonist the more I look back on it. 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more Chatte,  there's a beautiful saying in life we like to say "All good things have to come to end.." and honestly that is something I wish was more relevant in todays era than it was 10-20 years ago.  

 

Like a let story end when it's meant to reach it's conclusion, and as someone whose writing a story that encompasses a fixed trilogy of books when that story comes to a close for me that'll be it... there isn't gonna be we're finished, but there's a new generation on the horizon..... 

 

I mean the best example I could probably give is Full Metal Alchemist... when that story came to a close that was it.... We didn't get a story of Edward of Winry's child and exploring their adventures and the continuing cycle of Alchemy that's somehow mysteriously still in the air.  None of that happened!

 

 

Like yeah we still get some sort of content of Fullmetal Alchemist today, but a lot of that is just like a 2 in 1 editions of Manga Volumes, or like side stories that are novels that take place during the course of the story.  There hasn't been like a continuation after the series ended. 

 

 

 

There is no better way of describing it then what you just said Tricksie! 

 

It's honestly no surprise that Kishi's appreciation for Sasuke grew heavily since he's mentioned before that he emphasized more with Sasuke's characte and considered to be too idealistic...

 

People wanna say no... Naruto wasn't really idealistic he's wrong, but honestly though.........  Is Kishi really wrong in saying that? because given what we got throughout Naruto especially during the timeskip it shows it really just shows how idealistic Naruto really is, and he never really gives a thought to question any of the hard hitting questions when it comes to the world and the grips he has to face in becoming a better person... It's always about about No  I need to show them that we're exactly the same.... there's still good in people.... I hate to break it to some people, but that's not how life is ... people can be cruel and selfish and have their desires they want to see come to fruition even during their darkest hour.  Once you trend that line... there is ultimately no going back, and that is something we've seen other protagonists from other series learn. Naruto didn't have that luxury and unfortunately he never will. 

 

That's why even as a main protagonist I feel like Naruto is a such a wasted potential!   

Of course, that's Kishi's own fault because he intentionally refuses to have Naruto question himself and he committed to making Naruto into a paragon instead of exploring him as a young man struggling between his personal idealogy, his bonds and his responsibilities as a soldier and leader. He contrived a literary dead-end that stunted Naruto's progression as a character.  So, he can't fault the character for being too idealistic as if he had no control over his development when he deliberately wrote him to be inflexible and static.  Heck, recall how Naruto responded to Pain after hearing his life story.  He admitted to being able to empathize with Pain, but that he still hated him and refused to pity him after what he had done(a massive contrast to how Naruto would treat Sasuke or even Obito later on).  Kishimoto could've built upon that as an internal conflict for Naruto as he tries to strive to be the hero that Jiraiya wished him to be and he seemed to have intentions to do so, but he dropped the idea. 

Edited by Kagomaru, 03 February 2022 - 08:24 PM.

[Namaenash]

"What was that all about?" and "What was the point?"

These are the takeaway of Naruto as a franchise, given the ending. For that reason, readers appreciating a great storytelling stopped buying it. There's no point supporting the series.

A franchise that sold 250 million copies in 15 years, with an average sales of 3.47million copies per volume decided to change its storytelling direction for a recycled cash grab.

Naturally, its market will correct itself and it will leave behind handful, while the rest dropped it.

Boruto: Naruto Next Gen volume 16, sold 95k copies before it dropped out of Oricon top 50 rank radar in the 2nd week.

From an average sales of 3.47 million per volume to under 100k per volume. That's not even 3% of what it used to be.

Put it simply: people realised that there wasn't much thinking process from the franchise's author and producers, so, why bother? Why waste their time and money for Naruto. There's absolutely zero reason to care, really. If one enjoy it, by all means. The latest sales told a different view: most of us (who used to support it) are no longer care.

And if anyone argue that there's a free manga version available, let me tell you this: Japanese readers are no cheapskate. They'll buy and support as a sign of gratitude. It's just their culture. It's the reason why piracy has never been an issue in Japan. It's a cultural thing.

So, Naruto/Boruto producers made their product available for free is not to discourage people from buying. It's the other way around: the free version is to attract as much readers as possible (an advertisement, if you will) so that people are incentivised to buy the manga.

In all memorable manga fiction, most of the author had a vivid pictures of how they'd end the story. "Begin with the end in mind.", as the old saying goes.

When an architect designs a beautiful building, they draft the grand vision, the art blended in the space and they subsequently work towards that end vision. Similar with car designer, industrial designer, products designer and many others. That craftsmanship is what made it different. People buy the craftsmanship poured into their creations.

Same goes with manga and literature products. It's the idea and the craftsmanship that people buy. Without realizing it, these ideas turn into a multi billion franchise and leaving a footprint in pop culture.

Edited by Namaenash, 03 February 2022 - 02:55 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Or to sum it up in the words of Kishimoto and the authorities after chapter 700 and The Last came out, 90%+ of the fandom read the manga wrong. Apparently almost all of us were in an attempted gaslighting to FORGET that Naruto was about making bonds, achieving your dreams, etc. etc. After Chapter 700 came out, the side material that came with it made it apparent Naruto didn't WORK to become hokage, Kakashi handed the title to him as a freebee and was playing seat warmer for him. His conflict with Sasuke was damn well pointless too, because after chasing him around all over, and convincing him his home was in Konoha, Sasuke leaves again and THIS TIME Naruto said 'kay, see you whenever, and I'm assuming Naruto had to have a hot sweaty night with him before Sasuke gets to go away without fuss or protest. The romance was utter bull kitten because Sakura as the love interest was a red herring, quote unquote. That relationship was apparently luring us with bait like a carrot tied to a stick to surprise us that Hinata was the true love all along, and they even went a step further with with The Last where any narrative coherence and little remaining meaning in the story imploded on itself by showing Naruto is actually a secretly selfish narcissist that viewed Sakura as a trophy girlfriend/wife to one up Sasuke, and his bonds don't mean anything because he was sulking about his love confession being turned down to the point he gives no kittens about how his world was about to end. Also, competing with Sasuke over Sakura is a no-no, But punching it out with Toneri who is his new love rival over Hinata is TRUE ROMANCE  So what was the point, indeed?   

Edited by Phantom_999, 20 March 2022 - 02:15 PM.

[tricksie]

Not to mention I still feel like outside influences from others to become what he is now, like Kakashi and Shikamaru since they NEVER wanted to call out or change the system that hurt them so damn much!
 

Yes, Kakashi and Shikamaru should have stepped up their roles in his life. Sasuke was never coming back. The future of Konoha rests with these three: two future Kages and the top adviser. So yeah. They should have already switched into leadership roles and been guiding Naruto ahead after Shippuden. No matter what shipping stuff happened. Did they? Nope. After shippuden, the idea that Naruto was growing towards being a better leader is laughable. He was doing nothing but chase Sasuke! Not bonding with Sakura, not changing the system, not preparing for his future.... Just Sasuke. And you're right, the people closest to him — all except Sakura!!! — never called him out on it.

 

 

Well and let's face it the big line is drawn from Naruto as the main protagonist...... Does he really develop at all throughout Part 2?  Yeah, here and there, but there's nothing drastic that showcases "Wow he's really developed...."  His ideology was tested against Pain yes, but it was never really a continous thing...

 

The biggest one to be always come back to Sasuke  "All that time you spent chasing after me, would've been better spent in training right, Naruto?" and you know what he's right.... that by itself should've been turmoil conflict for Naruto like what if "Sasuke is right? What exactly have I been doing for the last 2-3 years? Have I lost sight of what I desired?" and that could've been a really cool struggle to see in Naruto....

 

Even beyond that like when Naruto loses control and goes into his 4 tails state when he attack Sakura without realizing it.... There could've been something where He distances himself from Sakura because he sees what kind of a monster he can be, and that scares him because he doesn't want to hurt the people he cares about. 

 

None of that was present in Part 2, and that is honestly one of the most infuriating things about Naruto as a protagonist the more I look back on it. 

 

Gah that would have been so good. For Naruto to distance himself from Sakura because he realizes how bad and traumatizing his power can be, and through that he understands Sasuke better and why he had to stay gone. Something like that. Where Naruto walks Sasuke's path to spare Sakura, only to understand Sasuke better and find a way to redeem him. Would have been so good! Then when Sasuke returned at the end of the war, all of Naruto's efforts would have paid off.

 

But here's the biggest reveal. We don't name anything past the Save Gaara arc. We don't say anything like "Well after Shippuden came..." There are simply no more character arcs for Naruto. Just a long stream of filler chapters that just unspool until the end. So the development he so desperately needed to make him seem like a leader and a hero and Sakura's true love just never happens.

[tricksie]

I know it's been mentioned a couple times up the thread, but his attitude towards true criminals in the end is just totally ick. Let's take a moment and remember: 

 

Obito killed his father, stole his mother from her pregnancy bed, STRUNG HER UP BETWEEN TWO ROCKS and RIPPED A HOLE IN HER MIDDLE to pull out the kyuubi, which then wiped out half the people in the village before his parents died sealing into their minutes-old infant son. 

 

It's horrifically brutal. It's such a violation of a woman and a mother. How does Kishi address that? Eh, he has Naruto forgive his mother's murderer with breezy 'cool dude' speech about Obito. It's such a wholesale destruction of everything Naruto stands for. And until that moment, I didn't realize how much Kishimoto had lost his way with this story. But he did.

 

Imagine if Minato came to Naruto not as the Kage, but the way he looked when he died, with a bloody hole in the middle from where he was speared through by the kyuubi? 

 

Imagine if Kushina came to Naruto looking the way she did when she died? Standing there, blood dripping from her mouth, eyes with huge purple circles from exhaustion of labor, blood smeared down her legs from just giving birth, and a GIANT BLEEDING HOLE torn in her stomach from where the kyuubi was ripped out.... All this before being gutted by the kyuubi to save Naruto's life.....

 

Imagine if that Kushina was standing there, saying that she loved him, speaking through the blood that just won't stop bubbling out of her mouth.... 

 

How would Naruto feel about Obito then? Probably not a 'cool guy.'

[VanitasDS76491]

I know it's been mentioned a couple times up the thread, but his attitude towards true criminals in the end is just totally ick. Let's take a moment and remember: 

 

Obito killed his father, stole his mother from her pregnancy bed, STRUNG HER UP BETWEEN TWO ROCKS and RIPPED A HOLE IN HER MIDDLE to pull out the kyuubi, which then wiped out half the people in the village before his parents died sealing into their minutes-old infant son. 

 

It's horrifically brutal. It's such a violation of a woman and a mother. How does Kishi address that? Eh, he has Naruto forgive his mother's murderer with breezy 'cool dude' speech about Obito. It's such a wholesale destruction of everything Naruto stands for. And until that moment, I didn't realize how much Kishimoto had lost his way with this story. But he did.

 

Imagine if Minato came to Naruto not as the Kage, but the way he looked when he died, with a bloody hole in the middle from where he was speared through by the kyuubi? 

 

Imagine if Kushina came to Naruto looking the way she did when she died? Standing there, blood dripping from her mouth, eyes with huge purple circles from exhaustion of labor, blood smeared down her legs from just giving birth, and a GIANT BLEEDING HOLE torn in her stomach from where the kyuubi was ripped out.... All this before being gutted by the kyuubi to save Naruto's life.....

 

Imagine if that Kushina was standing there, saying that she loved him, speaking through the blood that just won't stop bubbling out of her mouth.... 

 

How would Naruto feel about Obito then? Probably not a 'cool guy.'

actually that might have gotten the point across with naruto

[Phantom_999]

I know it's been mentioned a couple times up the thread, but his attitude towards true criminals in the end is just totally ick. Let's take a moment and remember: 

 

Obito killed his father, stole his mother from her pregnancy bed, STRUNG HER UP BETWEEN TWO ROCKS and RIPPED A HOLE IN HER MIDDLE to pull out the kyuubi, which then wiped out half the people in the village before his parents died sealing into their minutes-old infant son. 

 

It's horrifically brutal. It's such a violation of a woman and a mother. How does Kishi address that? Eh, he has Naruto forgive his mother's murderer with breezy 'cool dude' speech about Obito. It's such a wholesale destruction of everything Naruto stands for. And until that moment, I didn't realize how much Kishimoto had lost his way with this story. But he did.

 

Imagine if Minato came to Naruto not as the Kage, but the way he looked when he died, with a bloody hole in the middle from where he was speared through by the kyuubi? 

 

Imagine if Kushina came to Naruto looking the way she did when she died? Standing there, blood dripping from her mouth, eyes with huge purple circles from exhaustion of labor, blood smeared down her legs from just giving birth, and a GIANT BLEEDING HOLE torn in her stomach from where the kyuubi was ripped out.... All this before being gutted by the kyuubi to save Naruto's life.....

 

Imagine if that Kushina was standing there, saying that she loved him, speaking through the blood that just won't stop bubbling out of her mouth.... 

 

How would Naruto feel about Obito then? Probably not a 'cool guy.'

 

And the reason for that coolest guy/ really cool guy comment was, "Obito wanted to become hokage." so just sharing a dream is enough for Naruto to say that, "water under the bridge." Also, why did Obito started doing all these things? There was no Rin for him to kitten. Sorry to say, but an obsession with a person to that degree can't really mean anything else if you ask me, or they are your possession that you must have for the rest of your life and if you can't, no-one can.

 

Even leaving aside the theme of forgiveness, the message falls flat because Naruto forgives his enemies but doesn't change a damn thing and the story didn't show a damn thing that there is any progress in bettering the conditions that supposedly made the villains into villains in the first place. If you're gonna go that far as to say no one is born evil, then you have to follow through with it no matter how unrealistic the result is because that is what you wrote so you have to commit to it. Is there a point to a story where you got shot by someone, forgive them and saying "it wasn't their fault", then let them shoot you again? Same principle. The ninja world created a cycle of hatred through distrust and war that created suffering the story says and that suffering bred monsters that almost destroyed everything. So what has changed when you look at Boruto? Nothing. So not only is letting the villains getting away with the atrocities they've done disheartening to see, the entire message is completely pointless because Naruto did not address the root causes nor make them better

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 February 2022 - 01:24 PM.

[milan kyuubi]

I think it's time to post this again. lol

 

[tricksie]

actually that might have gotten the point across with naruto

when you think about how brutal some of the scenes are — including the one where Itachi is going to pop Sasuke's eye right out of his head — it has never failed to surprise me at how weak Kishi becomes in the resolution. He just sweeps all that away. It's like he likes the gore and brutality, but can't let the good characters ever address how much if f'd them up, or hold the bad guys accountable. 

 

And remember, these scenes are in a 'kids manga.' (Which, btw, is also a reason NS wasn't allowed to happen. 'Kids manga,' not about romance.)

 

 

And the reason for that coolest guy/ really cool guy comment was, "Obito wanted to become hokage." so just sharing a dream is enough for Naruto to say that, "water under the bridge." Also, why did Obito started doing all these things? There was no Rin for him to kitten. Sorry to say, but an obsession with a person to that degree can't really mean anything else if you ask me, or they are your possession that you must have for the rest of your life and if you can't, no-one can.

 

Even leaving aside the theme of forgiveness, the message falls flat because Naruto forgives his enemies but doesn't change a damn thing and the story didn't show a damn thing that there is any progress in bettering the conditions that supposedly made the villains into villains in the first place. If you're gonna go that far as to say no one is born evil, then you have to follow through with it no matter how unrealistic the result is because that is what you wrote so you have to commit to it. Is there a point to a story where you got shot by someone, forgive them and saying "it wasn't their fault", then let them shoot you again? Same principle. The ninja world created a cycle of hatred through distrust and war that created suffering the story says and that suffering bred monsters that almost destroyed everything. So what has changed when you look at Boruto? Nothing. So not only is letting the villains getting away with the atrocities they've done disheartening to see, the entire message is completely pointless because Naruto did not address the root causes

Yeah, it would have been a relief to see Naruto go full ninja for a while. Become silent, deadly, dedicated — turn inward and become cold like Pain and cut off his friends and Sakura to join anbu — and then come out the otherside with a better understanding. But nope.

 

It's like all the things about a corrupt ninja world were forgotten in the end of Naruto. And Naruto doesn't solve it, even though he could have. His character is just locked into good-guy punching bag mode.

 

It is disheartening. Naruto also has an obligation to the readers to deliver a message about how to deal with traumatizing people who do unforgiveable things. That's part of why you read. How would this made-up character handle these crazy scenarios, and how can I handly my less-crazy but equally traumatizing real-life problems? By taking away that crucial part of the story — how he handles and moves on from these traumas — you take away Naruto as a character and replace him with a cardboard cutout...on the battlefield, standing beside Hinata at the wedding, sitting behind the Kage desk. And then Naruto's perspective becomes utterly pointless, because he's now become one of the people he was railing against the first two-thirds of the story.

[Derock]

 

And remember, these scenes are in a 'kids manga.' (Which, btw, is also a reason NS wasn't allowed to happen. 'Kids manga,' not about romance.)

 

 

That's a bunch of bull****! "Kids manga"?! Then explain how Dragon Ball did it with their successful pairings: Gohan X Videl and Krillin X Android 18 (I use them as examples because they were the ones that we saw the hints of these couples becoming canon).  NaruSaku shouldn't be the reason of being canon because of being a "kids manga". It would made more sense because, hello, we're following Naruto's "story" or lack thereof. 

 

I swear, people are just.. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 
That's a bunch of bull****! "Kids manga"?! Then explain how Dragon Ball did it with their successful pairings: Gohan X Videl and Krillin X Android 18 (I use them as examples because they were the ones that we saw the hints of these couples becoming canon).  NaruSaku shouldn't be the reason of being canon because of being a "kids manga". It would made more sense because, hello, we're following Naruto's "story" or lack thereof. 
 
I swear, people are just.. 

Even Goku and Chichi are a good couple in Dragon Ball, with even the anime showing sweeter aspects of their marriage like when Chichi kisses Goku before he goes to the others once he recovers from the heart virus or when she is the first image in Gokus mind in the climax of his fight with Beerus in Battle of Gods.

And yet Akira Toriyama knew JACK about romance and made it work somehow. Which makes me ask what the hell is Masashi Kishimotos excuse??

[Phantom_999]

That's a bunch of bull****! "Kids manga"?! Then explain how Dragon Ball did it with their successful pairings: Gohan X Videl and Krillin X Android 18 (I use them as examples because they were the ones that we saw the hints of these couples becoming canon).  NaruSaku shouldn't be the reason of being canon because of being a "kids manga". It would made more sense because, hello, we're following Naruto's "story" or lack thereof. 
 
I swear, people are just.. 

*ring ring ring* I call to attention, "The Last, Naruto the Movie." "Pot calling Kettle black much!?" 

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 February 2022 - 09:44 AM.

[VanitasDS76491]

 

And the reason for that coolest guy/ really cool guy comment was, "Obito wanted to become hokage." so just sharing a dream is enough for Naruto to say that, "water under the bridge." Also, why did Obito started doing all these things? There was no Rin for him to kitten. Sorry to say, but an obsession with a person to that degree can't really mean anything else if you ask me, or they are your possession that you must have for the rest of your life and if you can't, no-one can.

 

Even leaving aside the theme of forgiveness, the message falls flat because Naruto forgives his enemies but doesn't change a damn thing and the story didn't show a damn thing that there is any progress in bettering the conditions that supposedly made the villains into villains in the first place. If you're gonna go that far as to say no one is born evil, then you have to follow through with it no matter how unrealistic the result is because that is what you wrote so you have to commit to it. Is there a point to a story where you got shot by someone, forgive them and saying "it wasn't their fault", then let them shoot you again? Same principle. The ninja world created a cycle of hatred through distrust and war that created suffering the story says and that suffering bred monsters that almost destroyed everything. So what has changed when you look at Boruto? Nothing. So not only is letting the villains getting away with the atrocities they've done disheartening to see, the entire message is completely pointless because Naruto did not address the root causes

to quote tellah form the final fantasy 4 in a nutshell when cecil just stands there and doesn't fight his dark half. Oh yah that totally makes up for all the innoecent people you murdered.

 

I think it's time to post this again. lol

 

Coolest guy indeed while seeing so many corpse at your feet some of which are probably from the leaf village. So basically naruto is full of kitten and talks out his ass

 

 

That's a bunch of bull****! "Kids manga"?! Then explain how Dragon Ball did it with their successful pairings: Gohan X Videl and Krillin X Android 18 (I use them as examples because they were the ones that we saw the hints of these couples becoming canon).  NaruSaku shouldn't be the reason of being canon because of being a "kids manga". It would made more sense because, hello, we're following Naruto's "story" or lack thereof. 

 

I swear, people are just.. 

Vegeta and bulma are a great couple and sasuke and sakura done right as bulma actually changed vegeta. another example is gajeel and levy from fairy tail look how they started and where they ended

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

I think it's time to post this again. lol