54175 replies to this topic

[sushi.]

Dear fellow NS-ers/anti-enders check out this tumblr person's NS comic.

 

https://aaliyah-draw...om/tagged/comic

 

Pics were way too big to copy but it's a really nice story and it's new so maybe you guys haven't seen it before.

[lupina]

Dear fellow NS-ers/anti-enders check out this tumblr person's NS comic.

 

https://aaliyah-draw...om/tagged/comic

 

Pics were way too big to copy but it's a really nice story and it's new so maybe you guys haven't seen it before.

 

Sakura and the kids look so beautiful

[T XD]

Dear fellow NS-ers/anti-enders check out this tumblr person's NS comic.

 

https://aaliyah-draw...om/tagged/comic

 

Pics were way too big to copy but it's a really nice story and it's new so maybe you guys haven't seen it before.

It's a good one. Do you have a link for the entire comic ?

[DrK]

Yeah, is it possible to see it in order? It's a little hard to read this way

[sushi.]

I wish she would make it easier to connect them as well.

 

https://aaliyah-draw...arusaku-comic-i

https://aaliyah-draw...s-page-2-part-1

https://aaliyah-draw...arusaku-comic-i

https://aaliyah-draw...-narusaku-comic

https://aaliyah-draw...-i-know-most-of

https://aaliyah-draw...c-also-today-is

https://aaliyah-draw...-time-is-almost

https://aaliyah-draw...tching-the-next (alternative because I thought it was lol)

https://aaliyah-draw...for-page-6-part

 

Read from top to bottom, and maybe she'll make it one comic when it's finished.

[bthug]

A is one person, and Sasuke is a rogue ninja of Konoha. We have no idea how the appeal process worked. A certainly could have been a hold out, or he wouldn't even have been there, but he certainly doesn't have final say. 
 
By all means, it would have been great if the appeal process was detailed, though I understand why it wasn't. 
 
 

 
Actually Sakura says after his first sorry, "Sorry, for what?" Then Sasuke says, "For everything", and Sakura says "You better be." 
 
You're still digging a trench in that prison isn't a punishment. That's not a very valid argument. A valid argument would be he wasn't punished enough, which is where I am trying to get you to switch to. And no argument was put forward that his journey was a punishment at any point in this discussion. 
 
Excusing Sasuke would be saying that he was innocent. He's not, he did awful and terrible things. But I'm not going to diminish the good he did either, the saving of the world is creditable to Team 7, regardless of their personal motivations. -Even- if doing so made it easier for Sasuke to rule, it does not invalidate that he saved it. By all means say he did it for selfish reasons, but he still helped save it, and that's not an easy weight to just throw out to balance when determining a pardon, particularly when the victim has sufficiently learned the lesson, or narrative intent shows as much, anyway.
 
You have captured the meaning of Sardonic, but not humor, I am afraid. 
 
 

 
Some of these have answers in the text.
 
For example, why would Naruto comment at this point? His crush continues to be less and less focused on, especially in the final few hundred chapters. 
 
Kishimoto shows love as thematically enduring, which I believe has some cultural foundation to it (You can see a lot of archetypes of people in Japanese works with an enduring love to a character that perseveres no matter the hardship). By his words to switch to Naruto would invalidate and put to question both past and future love, specifically because Naruto is now the "cool guy", and it would make her seemingly shallow. 
 
And on Sakura's actions in 699, I feel like it is ignored that Sasuke changed. There's also a passage of time between this moment and the end of the war. Given Sakura's unwavering feelings, it makes sense. It would only not make sense if her feelings did waver. 
 
Sasuke liking Sakura back has inferring in 693 you can make of, and has some basis sourcing all the way back to the Chuunin Exams.
 
The one thing hit is Sakura's love for Sasuke isn't ever elaborated, not even later, due to Kishimoto not wanting it to feel like a contrived reason.

I'm not trying to get into a back and forth (yes this is the debate thread) but I say that because having read everything and being a writer myself (mfa) (and it's my job) I don't believe the pairings were grounded rightfully in the plot.

Why would naruto comment? You say because his crush is less focused? Well then if that's your point why does Naruto chase Sasuke to the ends of the earth when Sasuke as no interest. ( also even as a child watching the anime I felt the reason for baritone chasing sasuke was contrived and the ending cemented that imo)

You say kishi shows love as enduring? Well that what about the main characters love? Why is it not enduring?

You say Sakuras actions make sense cause her love is unwavering, but then agree that it was never explained why...so how can a writer put something in a plot, have it carry out through and through, and end with it? Those shouldn't be possibilities especially when there are actual uncontrived reasons for why she would like Naruto......like I said poor writing and it doesn't make sense which is my biggest gripe.

Finally I don't know what chapter 693 is and I'm too lazy to look it up cause it doesn't matter. I'm not gonna change my mind and neither will you BUT I I doubt something written 7 chapters prior to the end justifies and compares to the previous 693 chapters.

But you see it doesn't matter. You will reply to this without trying to understand and see things from a different point of view. A pov that I believe is grounded, or at the very least more grounded in the story details.

Have a nice day, I won't read your reply :)

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

I showed my 22 month old nephew a NaruSaku vs NaruHina picture. He picked NaruSaku and I didn't even tempt him to pick NaruSaku.

[James S Cassidy]

I'm not ignoring anything. You can laugh about something and be completely serious about it. He didn't mean that in a joking manner. He meant what he said about her "love" being an addiction like that of a drug addiction. He admitted that it wasn't healthy. 

 

You're wasting your time with this argument with a pro-ender.
Pro-enders don't accept any negative aspects of NH and SS even if the author says so themselves and you can see it with there responses. "It is all a joke. You're misinterpreting it." Kishimoto said that there is really no reason why SS should exist and any reason he could come up with would feel contrived and forced. This is from Kishimoto's own mouth and they still don't accept it. Not just with one pro-ender, but with all pro-enders.

They don't see anything bad with NH and SS. Not one little bit, but if you bring up anyone else.

It is even true when you bring up lack of development for the couples. "Well, it is not a romance manga."

There is always an excuse. Always a way out. This is why I stopped arguing with them or at least try to because you can never change their mind no matter how hard you try. The only good thing is, they can't change our minds as well. They think the biggest argument they got is that we are just "salty because our pairing didn't become canon." Well, of course we are mad and we got good reason to be mad more than just because pairings."

That argument doesn't work anymore.
 

 

Of course, the big difference is that DBZ was always like that from the beginning and didn't try to hide what it was with trying to be "deep" or with a bunch of philosophy that eventually didn't matter,...and it STILL does what "Naruto" tried to do MUCH better (like Piccolo or Vegeta compared to Sasuke).

Which is the reason why Dragonball gets a pass for a lot of the stupid plot devices that it has. You can't really take DB seriously because it is not supposed to be taken seriously. All the powers, fights, and the like are meant to just be one big adrenaline trip. What I call a "popcorn anime." And there is nothing wrong with that. You can totally have a story like this and we see it a lot in movies, comic books, and more. Even Superman does it at times though you can go deeper.

Naruto...is different. It started out deep and ended up being flashy and shallow. All of a sudden Naruto is flying everywhere, throwing rasengans like Kamehamehas, and so forth. Nothing made sense after Pain. Naruto was supposed to have meaning and self-descovery, but it went shallow. If you imagine Naruto like a swimming pool where it was deep on one side and shallow in another.

Like I say, Kishimoto either just got tired of stopped caring at some point and went the easy route rather than continue to keep with his original motives.

[DrK]

 

It might be your human nature, but you -cannot- declare that these characters will actually act in this way. That is the entire problem with the above premise. It is a hypothetical, rather than actual analyzing what is there.

 

Especially with what we are shown: Sasuke doesn't do -any- of these things post 699. He goes on his journey of redemption. He does not pose as a threat for any of the other nations anymore. 

 

Narratively, it fits the theme and tone of the manga to end the way it did. Obviously, you can say Sasuke should have died, that's a fine and valid opinion, even if I disagree with it as a writer. But you cannot say that the writing demands Sasuke's death, or pre-determine the reactions, because you are not the Author. 

Ridiculous, again. Completely ridiculous. This is why people do not want to debate with you and put you on ignore. You aren't interested in what was established by Neji's father's death. You refuse to be convinced of or allow your mind to be changed on any point. You're only interested in convincing others. That is debating in bad faith. I can't say that something in a story doesn't make sense if i'm not the author and story ends defy story means? OK.

 

Let's say that they're going to have Itachi fight Hinata, and you're debating with someone about who is going to win. Obviously since you know things about the manga, you think Itachi is going to win. But someone disagrees with you and says Hinata will win. Itachi will lose because he will be reminded of his mother when fighting Hinata, and he won't want to hurt her. Despite the fact that Itachi was never shown to be sentimental in this way or to have a great love for his mother. Still, he loses. Great argument, right? According to you it is. Kishimoto could do this and there would be no issues with it. He's the author. He can do whatever he wants and if it works out in the end, it was justified.

 

If no one can declare anything about the manga not making sense to you as long as it didn't cause the manga to spontaneously burst in flames, what is the point in talking to you? Who cares if it fit the tone of the manga? My argument was that it didn't make any sense. Did you lose sight of that?

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 08:12 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

8th Hokage after Konohamaru

So does that mean Kakashi didn't become the sixth cause if he did hanami would be the 9th hokage? Hanami looks awesome as hokage better than if what's her face ever became hokage.

[DrK]

 

Your argument yes, was, that it didn't make any sense because A would not stand for it. My argument is what evidence is there that A would have any part of it? Further, what argument is there that even if he did not support it, that the declaration would still not move forward? The only evidence we have is that the declaration did move forward, regardless of whether or not A voiced opposition or not. This is on a hypothetical level anyway, because we don't know what he said.

 

And your complaint is odd, you're saying "I don't allow myself to be swayed by others, but expect others to be sway." I actually -don't- expect anyone to be swayed, nor aim for that, and sometimes if a good point is put out there, I will give it credit. (Such as Naruto and Sasuke's later closeness being contrived). 

Stop with this constant assertion that the things other people are saying are odd! What is your fixation with that? You said earlier that my argument was odd. How is my argument odd? How else would one make an argument that Sasuke's pardon is nonsensical? There is every reason to think A would take part! What is your reason to think he wouldn't? You're also being hypothetical by asserting that! It makes more sense to assume that he would than that he wouldn't! I made it clear why it would not go forward.

 

How is that complaint odd? Isn't that completely reasonable to have an issue with someone who refuses to be swayed since that would defeat the point of even talking with them since there's no way you can possibly achieve anything other than being convinced yourself?

 

And you don't find it to be an issue that you refuse to let your beliefs be swayed? Other than some extremely minor things? That still constitutes bad faith. And your retort that you don't expect to sway anyone, either? That doesn't help. In fact, it actually makes things even worse. What is your purpose in even being here, then? A thought exercise? No one ever has a chance of convincing you about anything regarding NS nor can you ever convince them! Hooray! Let's keep debating~!

 

Whatever. I get it. Not falling for this again.

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 08:41 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

So does that mean Kakashi didn't become the sixth cause if he did hanami would be the 9th hokage? Hanami looks awesome as hokage better than if what's her face ever became hokage.

 

Agreed, Vanitas :) And I think that is how it went in this fanon; that Naruto actually became the Sixth Hokage instead of Kakashi doing it as a kind of benchwarmer for Naruto.

[TheFirstEvil100]

You know I got back from watching Jigsaw yesterday, and now guys all I can think about is if some of the Naruto cast were put into traps why Naruto lets known criminals go free cause they give a sob story. Say what you want about John Kramer, played so well by Tobin Bell, but he would not let Sasuke just go Free hell cause of Naruto I think that Naruto would be put into a trap.

[DrK]

You know I got back from watching Jigsaw yesterday, and now guys all I can think about is if some of the Naruto cast were put into traps why Naruto lets known criminals go free cause they give a sob story. Say what you want about John Kramer, played so well by Tobin Bell, but he would not let Sasuke just go Free hell cause of Naruto I think that Naruto would be put into a trap.

*Naruto wakes up in a room with the other members of Team 7 tied up to machines. He has a keypad with 2 buttons*

 

"Hello, Naruto. I'd like to play a game. You pretend to be a paragon of virtue and everything that is good about people. Yet you tirelessly defend your friend, the missing ninja criminal Uchiha Sasuke. You would do anything to protect this man that tried to take over the world and kill the woman you love. You humiliated yourself for him despite being a famous hero. You took a beating for him. You even offered to die alongside him. Would you do anything to save Sasuke? Can you make the choice to be happy with the woman of your dreams? Or would you rather let Sasuke rule a world that you don't live in anymore? In front of you are two buttons. The black one will kill Sasuke. The white one will kill both you and Sakura. You have 30 seconds. Better hurry up, Naruto."

Edited by DrK, 28 October 2017 - 11:45 PM.

[Nostradamus]

*Naruto wakes up in a room with the other members of Team 7 tied up to machines. He has a keypad with 2 buttons*

 

"Hello, Naruto. I'd like to play a game. You pretend to be a paragon of virtue and everything that is good about people. Yet you tirelessly defend your friend, the missing ninja criminal Uchiha Sasuke. You would do anything to protect this man that tried to take over the world and kill the woman you love. You humiliated yourself for him despite being a famous hero. You took a beating for him. You even offered to die alongside him. Can you make the choice to be happy with the woman of your dreams? Or would you rather let Sasuke rule a world that you don't live in anymore? In front of you are two buttons. The black one will kill Sasuke. The white one will kill both you and Sakura. You have 30 seconds. Better hurry up, Naruto."

Naruto presses white button instantly.

[DrK]

Yeah, Jigsaw would probably rig the trap so that the buttons are reversed. There was usually a trick of some kind based on how he understood the person's mind to work. He would set it up so that Naruto killed Sasuke no matter what, doing him a huge favor.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Naruto presses white button instantly.

Yeah I mean I know Sakura would be shocked at this knowing Naruto didn't even talk to her, just BOOM Sasuke needs to live he is my brother/lover.

 

Yeah, Jigsaw would probably rig the trap so that the buttons are reversed. There was usually a trick of some kind based on how he understood the person's mind to work. He would set it up so that Naruto killed Sasuke no matter what, doing him a huge favor.

Oh that is trueI mean he would know that Naruto wouldn't save Sakura and pick Sasuke over him and her cause Sasuke as Naruto would say. "He's my best friend." Yeah I still find it lame as well.

 

*Naruto wakes up in a room with the other members of Team 7 tied up to machines. He has a keypad with 2 buttons*

 

"Hello, Naruto. I'd like to play a game. You pretend to be a paragon of virtue and everything that is good about people. Yet you tirelessly defend your friend, the missing ninja criminal Uchiha Sasuke. You would do anything to protect this man that tried to take over the world and kill the woman you love. You humiliated yourself for him despite being a famous hero. You took a beating for him. You even offered to die alongside him. Would you do anything to save Sasuke? Can you make the choice to be happy with the woman of your dreams? Or would you rather let Sasuke rule a world that you don't live in anymore? In front of you are two buttons. The black one will kill Sasuke. The white one will kill both you and Sakura. You have 30 seconds. Better hurry up, Naruto."

Cool all that's needed is just how it killed them I think there are a few good ways that could be used and I know that once Naruto does push the button, oh boy would he be shocked that its Sasuke who dies, but as you said Jigsaw would have Naruto then die maybe as well cause he was selfish.

[DrK]

Yeah. Maybe Sasuke dies no matter what, but if Naruto had pushed the white button then Naruto also dies, leaving only Sakura? If he pushes neither button after 30 seconds everyone dies ofc. Jigsaw would want to punish Naruto for not being able to deal with Sasuke.

Edited by DrK, 29 October 2017 - 12:15 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

You know I got back from watching Jigsaw yesterday, and now guys all I can think about is if some of the Naruto cast were put into traps why Naruto lets known criminals go free cause they give a sob story. Say what you want about John Kramer, played so well by Tobin Bell, but he would not let Sasuke just go Free hell cause of Naruto I think that Naruto would be put into a trap.

Yeah, a lot of people mistakenly think that it's only "bad people" that John put in traps, but it's not just them, but also people whose decisions end up hurting people, who hurt themselves, and so on. After all, even in the first film, neither Doctor Gordon or Adam were truly "bad" or "evil" people. It's not about punishing "evil", but making people be grateful for being alive and to stop taking it for granted.

 

Yeah I mean I know Sakura would be shocked at this knowing Naruto didn't even talk to her, just BOOM Sasuke needs to live he is my brother/lover.

 

Oh that is trueI mean he would know that Naruto wouldn't save Sakura and pick Sasuke over him and her cause Sasuke as Naruto would say. "He's my best friend." Yeah I still find it lame as well.

 

Cool all that's needed is just how it killed them I think there are a few good ways that could be used and I know that once Naruto does push the button, oh boy would he be shocked that its Sasuke who dies, but as you said Jigsaw would have Naruto then die maybe as well cause he was selfish.

John's traps were usually, not all the time, but usually ones of irony, relating to the "sin" that got the person selected and taken in the first place, like that guy in the barbed wire "cage" that cut himself for attention, so if he truly wanted to die, he just had to stay there, let the time run out, and get trapped, but if he wanted to live, he had to crawl through the barbed wire and "cut himself some more" to make it to the exist and escape before the time ran out. But the rest of the time, it's ones that usually involve the person(s) going through a lot of pain in general.

Aside from Sasuke and Sakura, the punishment for Naruto not choosing either of them, or killing himself, could be not just all three of them dying, but maybe other victims (the other Rookies, Konohamaru, Tsunade, etc.) would die too. So would he let Sasuke go scott free and let himself, Sakura, and the rest die? Would he let Sakura and the rest go and let Sasuke die? Or would he just let everyone and himself die?

Not sure what the exact methods and such would be involved, but the irony for everyone dying would be that the rooms they're in could be a bunker within Konoha itself that no one there knows about, and if Naruto ends up not being able to choose, there could be an explosion that would level all of Konoha or something.

[VanitasDS76491]

Yeah. Maybe Sasuke dies no matter what, but if Naruto had pushed the white button then Naruto also dies, leaving only Sakura? If he pushes neither button after 30 seconds everyone dies ofc. Jigsaw would want to punish Naruto for not being able to deal with Sasuke.

Talk about a no win situation for naruto, I don't like the saw movies but this has me interested cause putting naruto in this works very well.